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High suicide rate worries US Army
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thunderous_funker
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Oct 27, 2003, 06:15 PM
 
AFP - The US army has sent mental health specialists to Iraq to determine why so many soldiers are committing suicide there, a US media report said.

Eleven US soldiers and three Marines have killed themselves in the past seven months in Iraq, an annualised rate of 17 suicides per 100,000 soldiers.

The usual rate of army suicides is 13 per 100,000 soldiers, the report in the USA Today newspaper said.

A dozen other army deaths being investigated in Iraq could include suicides, and the US Navy is also investigating one possible suicide, it said.

"The number of suicides has caused the army to be concerned," said Lieutenant Colonel Elspeth Cameron Ritchie, an army psychiatrist helping investigate the deaths.

"Is there something different going on in Iraq that we really need to pay attention to?"

Most of the suicides have occurred since May 1, when major combat operations were declared over.

Depression, harsh and dangerous living conditions, a long deployment and the accessibility of weapons could contribute to the problem, experts said.

The army has sent 478 soldiers home from Iraq for mental-health reasons, the daily said.
"There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die." -- Hunter S. Thompson
     
thunderous_funker  (op)
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Oct 27, 2003, 06:28 PM
 
Along the same lines as the mostly untold tragedy of US soldiers committing suicide, there is the the conspicuously missing account of the wounded.

Some media watchers have noted that reports of non-fatal injuries to coalition forces are referred to as "injuries" rather than wounded in many media outlets.

Right now the number of wounded is over 1,200 by DoD reports. Here is a blog that tells the stories of US wounded, putting a human face on the sacrifice being made by our young soldiers. Truly tragic.
"There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die." -- Hunter S. Thompson
     
benign
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Oct 27, 2003, 06:30 PM
 
There was only one catch and that was Catch-22, which specified that a concern for one's safety in the face of dangers that were real and immediate was the process of a rational mind. Orr was crazy and could be grounded. All he had to do was ask; and as soon as he did, he would no longer be crazy and would have to fly more missions. Orr would be crazy to fly more missions and sane if he didn't, but if he was sane he had to fly them. If he flew them he was crazy and didn't have to; but if he didn't want to he was sane and had to. Yossarian was moved very deeply by the absolute simplicity of this clause of Catch-22 and let out a respectful whistle.
"That's some catch, that Catch-22," he observed.
"It's the best there is," Doc Daneeka agreed.
You would have to be crazy to be
in the armed forces.


Simple Empire...
     
eklipse
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Oct 27, 2003, 06:33 PM
 
"I can say, and I am responsible for what I am saying, that they have started to commit suicide under the walls of Baghdad. We will encourage them to commit more suicides quickly."

"Their infidels are committing suicide by the hundreds on the gates of Baghdad. Be assured, Baghdad is safe, protected."

"Their forces committed suicide by the hundreds. ... The battle is very fierce and God made us victorious. The fighting continues."

Former Iraqi Information Minister Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf
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nonhuman
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Oct 27, 2003, 07:45 PM
 
So they're ok with 13 people killing themselves out of every 100,000, but not 17? The difference is small enough that you'd think they'd be concerned about the original 13 in the first place.

At least they aren't trying to call soldiers who commit suicides terrorists for "attacking a US soldier".
     
Face Ache
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Oct 27, 2003, 09:29 PM
 
Depression, harsh and dangerous living conditions, a long deployment and the accessibility of weapons could contribute to the problem, experts said.
Nothing to do with what they've done and seen then.

Accessibility of weapons?! I can see the occupational health and safety officer down there now taking their guns away "for their own protection."
     
Uday's Carcass
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Oct 27, 2003, 11:38 PM
 
Originally posted by eklipse:
Laugh.My.Ass.Off.
You're sick. You preach all day long, spouting your idiotic agenda and puke popcorned propaganda, and you have the nerve to sit back and write some filth like that. Finding humour in the suicide and suffering of others?! Go back to chewing on a tin can you callous piece of cud.
( Last edited by Demonhood; Oct 28, 2003 at 12:46 AM. )

Linfidels harken! 'The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.'
     
Uday's Carcass
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Oct 27, 2003, 11:41 PM
 
Originally posted by nonhuman:
So they're ok with 13 people killing themselves out of every 100,000, but not 17? The difference is small enough that you'd think they'd be concerned about the original 13 in the first place.
They are. The US armed forces has substantial programs in place for suicide prevention. Unfortunately suicides occur, and soldiers are drawn from a cross-section of society, which means that some suicide-prone individuals are bound to join the military.

Linfidels harken! 'The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.'
     
Lerkfish
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Oct 27, 2003, 11:52 PM
 
Originally posted by Uday's Carcass:
You're sick. You preach all day long, spouting your idiotic agenda and puke sh*tfaced propaganda, and you have the nerve to sit back and write some filth like that. Finding humour in the suicide and suffering of others?! Go back to porking your goat you �ucking callous piece of ****.
hm....I'm trying really hard to view this as not being a personal attack, but failing...help me out here. Can a moderator give me a ruling?
     
Spliffdaddy
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Oct 28, 2003, 12:38 AM
 
so what?

click the 'back' button on your browser and move on.
     
Uday's Carcass
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Oct 28, 2003, 12:52 AM
 
Originally posted by Lerkfish:
hm....I'm trying really hard to view this as not being a personal attack, but failing...help me out here. Can a moderator give me a ruling?
I am attacking him personally for his weak-minded, arrogant, and ruthless remarks. He just laughs at the suffering and suicide of human beings, and rejoices in the fact that some Saddam lackey managed to spew something that could be twisted into his own anti-American, pro-terrorist propaganda. Men are dead; their loved ones are widowed and their children orphaned. If that's how this wacko gets his rocks off, then I'm doing the right thing by calling him on it.

Go be high-minded someplace else. Maybe you and eklipse can chuckle over some babies dying of SIDS.

Linfidels harken! 'The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.'
     
shmerek
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Oct 28, 2003, 12:57 AM
 
Originally posted by Uday's Carcass:
I am attacking him personally.
the rules still apply
     
RooneyX
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Oct 28, 2003, 01:12 AM
 
Originally posted by benign:
You would have to be crazy to be
in the armed forces.
And stupid. I'm favor of sending only leaders to war. Those politicians, those mullahs, those dictators, those heads of oil companies, those heads of arms companies, let them fight mano a mano themselves.
     
Lerkfish
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Oct 28, 2003, 01:20 AM
 
Originally posted by Uday's Carcass:
I am attacking him personally for his weak-minded, arrogant, and ruthless remarks. He just laughs at the suffering and suicide of human beings, and rejoices in the fact that some Saddam lackey managed to spew something that could be twisted into his own anti-American, pro-terrorist propaganda. Men are dead; their loved ones are widowed and their children orphaned. If that's how this wacko gets his rocks off, then I'm doing the right thing by calling him on it.

Go be high-minded someplace else. Maybe you and eklipse can chuckle over some babies dying of SIDS.
oh, thanks for the clarification. I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but I see it was unnecessary.
     
Uday's Carcass
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Oct 28, 2003, 01:20 AM
 
Originally posted by RooneyX:
And stupid.
they're neither stupid nor crazy. They're brave. They will take a bullet for a fellow soldier or take wounds and 'drive on' because their buddies are counting on them. And even though you may disagree with the war, that doesn't diminish their heroism or actions in liberating a people so downtrodden by a ruthless, murderous dictator.

And those soldiers are a part of a tradition that liberated Europe from Fascist tyranny, kept South Korea from falling into the hell of Communism, rebuilt Western Europe and Japan from war-torn, burning rubble into the societies they are today, and won the Cold War through decades of endless sacrifice and vigilance.

Linfidels harken! 'The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.'
     
Lerkfish
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Oct 28, 2003, 01:25 AM
 
Originally posted by Uday's Carcass:
And even though you may disagree with the war, that doesn't diminish their heroism
exactly. By the same token, disagreeing with the war does not mean some are trying to diminish individual heroism. Those are two separate issues.
It is possible to be philosophically opposed to this war or to all wars and still support our troops and pray for their safe return.
     
nonhuman
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Oct 28, 2003, 01:29 AM
 
Originally posted by Uday's Carcass:
And those soldiers are a part of a tradition that liberated Europe from Fascist tyranny, kept South Korea from falling into the hell of Communism, rebuilt Western Europe and Japan from war-torn, burning rubble into the societies they are today, and won the Cold War through decades of endless sacrifice and vigilance.
They're also part of the tradition that plunged Europe into Fascist tyranny, crushed Western Europe and the Empire of Japan into war-torn burning rubble, and brought about the Cold War.

It's like one of those long cutting implements that is sharp on both sides of the flat cutting surface.
     
eklipse
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Oct 28, 2003, 05:49 AM
 
Originally posted by Uday's Carcass:
You're sick. You preach all day long, spouting your idiotic agenda and puke popcorned propaganda, and you have the nerve to sit back and write some filth like that. Finding humour in the suicide and suffering of others?! Go back to chewing on a tin can you callous piece of cud.
ROFLMAO!

You would propose to lecture me on respect for the dead and pity over human suffering Mr. Carcass?

Don't give me this 'finding humor in human suffering' bullshit - if it were up to me, none of these soldiers would be anywhere near Iraq, committing suicide or otherwise. It's amazing how you can show more compassion for a couple of soldiers (who knew what they were signing up for) than you can for several thousand innocent civilians that died at the hands of these very same men.

Besides, I wasn't laughing at the death of anyone, I was laughing at the fact that the Iraqi Information Minister's 'absurd' remarks have some truth to them.
     
eklipse
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Oct 28, 2003, 05:51 AM
 
Originally posted by RooneyX:
And stupid. I'm favor of sending only leaders to war. Those politicians, those mullahs, those dictators, those heads of oil companies, those heads of arms companies, let them fight mano a mano themselves.
Good plan

If I remember correctly, Saddam challenged Bush to a duel at one stage - Bush chickened out.
     
lil'babykitten
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Oct 28, 2003, 06:43 AM
 
Originally posted by eklipse:
You would propose to lecture me on respect for the dead and pity over human suffering Mr. Carcass?
Laugh.My.Ass.Off.
     
theolein
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Oct 28, 2003, 07:05 AM
 
Originally posted by Uday's Carcass:
they're neither stupid nor crazy. They're brave. They will take a bullet for a fellow soldier or take wounds and 'drive on' because their buddies are counting on them. And even though you may disagree with the war, that doesn't diminish their heroism or actions in liberating a people so downtrodden by a ruthless, murderous dictator.

And those soldiers are a part of a tradition that liberated Europe from Fascist tyranny, kept South Korea from falling into the hell of Communism, rebuilt Western Europe and Japan from war-torn, burning rubble into the societies they are today, and won the Cold War through decades of endless sacrifice and vigilance.
I heard that the US Army is running low on reservists. Why don't you join up since it moves you so much? You would, in your own words, be doing your bit and you would be able to see first hand what the conflict is about. I doubt it, but you might actually learn something. In any case you'll have more effect than you will here.
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Oct 28, 2003, 10:03 AM
 
Originally posted by theolein:
I heard that the US Army is running low on reservists. Why don't you join up since it moves you so much? You would, in your own words, be doing your bit and you would be able to see first hand what the conflict is about. I doubt it, but you might actually learn something. In any case you'll have more effect than you will here.
I can send you the forms if you like UC.
     
benign
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Oct 28, 2003, 10:11 AM
 
Originally posted by Uday's Carcass:
they're neither stupid nor crazy. They're brave. They will take a bullet for a fellow soldier or take wounds and 'drive on' because their buddies are counting on them. And even though you may disagree with the war, that doesn't diminish their heroism or actions in liberating a people so downtrodden by a ruthless, murderous dictator.

And those soldiers are a part of a tradition that liberated Europe from Fascist tyranny, kept South Korea from falling into the hell of Communism, rebuilt Western Europe and Japan from war-torn, burning rubble into the societies they are today, and won the Cold War through decades of endless sacrifice and vigilance.

Is it brave to die for a fiscal cause.

The military prides itself on unthinking
obedience, which is an inhuman tyranny.
To take on an occupation that dehumanizes
you is a sign of madness.


Simple Empire...
     
asleep@thewheel
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Oct 28, 2003, 10:46 AM
 
Originally posted by eklipse:
ROFLMAO!

You would propose to lecture me on respect for the dead and pity over human suffering Mr. Carcass?
no matter what side you're on this has got to be funniest rebuttal ever in this forum!
     
Spheric Harlot
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Oct 28, 2003, 10:49 AM
 
Originally posted by eklipse:
Besides, I wasn't laughing at the death of anyone, I was laughing at the fact that the Iraqi Information Minister's 'absurd' remarks have some truth to them.
Ah, good. I'm relieved.

I thought my reading comprehension had gone out the window, since I couldn't for the life of me see in your post what UC imagined to see and blew his lid at.

Uday's Carcass - the Menace of Phantoms.

-s*
     
BlackGriffen
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Oct 28, 2003, 01:56 PM
 
Originally posted by benign:
Is it brave to die for a fiscal cause.

The military prides itself on unthinking
obedience, which is an inhuman tyranny.
To take on an occupation that dehumanizes
you is a sign of madness.
(paraphrase) "The immature man wishes to die for his cause. The mature man will live humbly for it." --I dunno

BG
     
Mister Elf
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Oct 29, 2003, 05:30 PM
 
Originally posted by benign:
You would have to be crazy to be
in the armed forces.
am i insane then?

(US Navy, Lieutenant, JG)
Midshipman 3/C, USNR
     
Sven G
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Oct 31, 2003, 12:12 PM
 
Originally posted by benign:
You would have to be crazy to be
in the armed forces.


Originally posted by RooneyX:
And stupid. I'm favor of sending only leaders to war. Those politicians, those mullahs, those dictators, those heads of oil companies, those heads of arms companies, let them fight mano a mano themselves.


The real problem is that often the recruits of the military, the police, etc. are people who have little choice (real "proletarians", as Pasolini also pointed out, BTW, in the '60s) but to "join" (!) the most stupid, brutal and oppressive institutions of the state.

At least, if those people were like The Good Soldier Svejk, not only wouldn't they commit suicide, but would have a good laugh at their idiotic "superiors"...


The freedom of all is essential to my freedom. - Mikhail Bakunin
     
Sven G
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Oct 31, 2003, 12:20 PM
 
Originally posted by Mister Elf:
am i insane then?

(US Navy, Lieutenant, JG)
I don't think they meant you/the individual, but the military as a "system": it's undeniable that it's neither a democratic structure, nor a "human" one - so, it's hardly a surprise that many young people are led to commit suicide, once they discover the hard reality.

BTW, if I were a lieutenant or some other "graduated" type, I would use any and all of my "authority" to make the armed forces a better, more fair and more friendly place to live - as far as possible, of course.

That was, for example, a trend they carried on in Sweden in the '70s, with a rather thorough "democratization" of the army, etc., also with the abolishment of some stupid and nonsensical obsolete regulations: don't know how it is today, however...

The freedom of all is essential to my freedom. - Mikhail Bakunin
     
Spliffdaddy
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Oct 31, 2003, 12:25 PM
 
Hey look.

Somebody is giving the US Armed Forces advice on how to improve themselves.

As if being the best in the world somehow wasn't good enough.
     
Sven G
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Oct 31, 2003, 01:12 PM
 
"Best in the world" at the price of a complete dehumanization, maybe: something like "human robots"...

The strange thing is that The Left� isn't so radical about its anti-militarism (also militarism from a "lifestyle" (!) point of view, if one can say so), anymore: as if such a structure were more or less acceptable and/or unavoidable...

The freedom of all is essential to my freedom. - Mikhail Bakunin
     
petehammer
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Oct 31, 2003, 01:20 PM
 
Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Hey look.

Somebody is giving the US Armed Forces advice on how to improve themselves.

As if being the best in the world somehow wasn't good enough.
Yes, it's called criticism. You have probably criticized President Clinton without ever having been a president, am I right?

We may have the most military might, but there are surely places for improvement in the military. I happen to think our soldiers are capable and military leadership fair and focused. I do think they have to deal with issues of morale and sexual harrassment though I am pretty sure that the military no longer tolates overt racism.

The military also needs to make its soldiers more productive members of society after they finish their service, as many previous Army guys I know cannot advance in their jobs due to lack of higher education. Don't just give vocational skills, give a real university experience. Free education for military service isn't such a bad idea (yes, I realize they reimburse you for future schooling, I mean in the military itself).
     
Mohammed Atef
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Oct 31, 2003, 02:20 PM
 
Originally posted by Sven G:
"Best in the world" at the price of a complete dehumanization, maybe: something like "human robots"...
you're out of your mind if you believe that. Military folks aren't robots or dehumanised at all. Far from it. The constant focus is on troop welfare--everything from family/home life to respect, equal opportunity, no sexual harrassment, and substantial education and self-improvement opportunities.

You just don't have a clue what you're blabbing about.
     
Mohammed Atef
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Oct 31, 2003, 02:22 PM
 
Originally posted by petehammer:
many previous Army guys I know cannot advance in their jobs due to lack of higher education. Don't just give vocational skills, give a real university experience. Free education for military service isn't such a bad idea (yes, I realize they reimburse you for future schooling, I mean in the military itself).
Your info is decades outdated. Anyone in the Army has access to free college/uni education WHILE IN SERVICE, and it is even possible to earn commissions this way. Just about every enlisted person I've known has a college degree, and many come in with a 4-year degree already.

You just don't have the experience or background to see that or analyse correctly on the issue.
     
Lerkfish
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Oct 31, 2003, 02:30 PM
 
Originally posted by Mohammed Atef:
you're out of your mind if you believe that. Military folks aren't robots or dehumanised at all. Far from it. The constant focus is on troop welfare--everything from family/home life to respect, equal opportunity, no sexual harrassment, and substantial education and self-improvement opportunities.

You just don't have a clue what you're blabbing about.
Actually, I think he's speaking in more general social dynamic terms.

The military IS dehumanizing...on purpose. Why do you think they have uniforms? so that if one soldier falls, another one moves up in the ranks, and the loss is minimized through uniformity. That is engineered so that instead of saying "Damn, they got Whittmeyer and Johansen" its "we're two men down!".
Otherwise you run into annoying morale problems in the heat of battle that you really don't want to deal with until later.
As an analogy...if you build a stone wall where every stone is different and must be carefully arranged to fit just so-so, Then if you lose a stone, the entire wall suffers and the hole cannot be filled by just any rock.
As opposed to a brick wall, where all the bricks are unifom. Then its easier when a brick gets knocked out simplay replace with any old brick.
     
Sven G
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Oct 31, 2003, 02:30 PM
 
Originally posted by Mohammed Atef:
you're out of your mind if you believe that. Military folks aren't robots or dehumanised at all. Far from it. The constant focus is on troop welfare--everything from family/home life to respect, equal opportunity, no sexual harrassment, and substantial education and self-improvement opportunities.

You just don't have a clue what you're blabbing about.
... Says you, MacNN's expert on "the distorted meaning of socialism"!

What you are talking about are, in effect, more formal than substantial things: and it's certainly robot-like to go on the battlefield and kill some fellow human beings. You mistake my dislike for militarism for a personal attack against the individuals, when it clearly isn't so.

But if you think it's so self-fulfilling to be a soldier, you are always "free" to join the military (if you aren't already among them)...

The freedom of all is essential to my freedom. - Mikhail Bakunin
     
Spliffdaddy
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Oct 31, 2003, 03:10 PM
 
And you're free to suggest that members of the US Armed Forces are all brainwashed robots.

I mean, it's either that or you're wrong.

     
Spheric Harlot
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Oct 31, 2003, 05:57 PM
 
Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Hey look.

Somebody is giving the US Armed Forces advice on how to improve themselves.

As if being the best in the world somehow wasn't good enough.
It would be good enough.

But a bigger toybox does not a better player make.

-s*
     
Mohammed Atef
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Oct 31, 2003, 06:43 PM
 
Originally posted by Lerkfish:
The military IS dehumanizing...on purpose. Why do you think they have uniforms? so that if one soldier falls, another one moves up in the ranks, and the loss is minimized through uniformity.
you're really off on this one. Uniforms are common because it promotes uniformity--military bearing and soldierization. furthermore, you're not going to wear some Abercrombie crap in the jungle or desert--that's why you wear a woodland or desert-print uniform. Pretty simple.

in the military you simply can't have soldiers doing their own thing. It's chaotic, undisciplined, and looks like a pile of steaming poo.

so in short you're really off base in your interpretation of uniforms.
     
Lerkfish
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Oct 31, 2003, 06:52 PM
 
Originally posted by Mohammed Atef:
you're really off on this one. Uniforms are common because it promotes uniformity--military bearing and soldierization. furthermore, you're not going to wear some Abercrombie crap in the jungle or desert--that's why you wear a woodland or desert-print uniform. Pretty simple.

in the military you simply can't have soldiers doing their own thing. It's chaotic, undisciplined, and looks like a pile of steaming poo.

so in short you're really off base in your interpretation of uniforms.
um, no actually you've just reinforced my interpretation. The ultimate purpose of a uniform is conformity, as you suggest. That makes each soldier a brick of equal size.
Therefore, each brick is uniform, disposable and replaceable. If all soldiers not only LOOK alike on the battlefield, but also as you correctly point out, ACT alike on the battlefield, it minimizes the debilitating grief of your fellow soldiers as you are eliminitated off the battlefield.
By making everyon conform to an equal look, it makes it difficult and pointless to try to differentiate them at a distance. Therefore, less psychological energy is lost trying to determine who just got hit and instead refocus on the job at hand.

This is the purpose of uniforms. Just because you don't see it, does not make it untrue.

and to make a further point about the dehumanizing nature of the military...it seeks to categorize deaths by accounting terms...collateral damage instead of civilian deaths, for example. In all ways it attempts to distance itself from the humanity of what is happening in war. The purpose of a military (no matter whose) is to efficiently slaughter human beings, hopefully on the other side more often than on your side. This is an inhumane act. Any way to anesthetize the soldier to the sheer brutality of the act is a goal.

therefore, the military (any military) has the intent of being as dehumanizing as possible.
( Last edited by Lerkfish; Oct 31, 2003 at 06:57 PM. )
     
swrate
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Oct 31, 2003, 06:57 PM
 
Originally posted by Mohammed Atef:
you're really off on this one. Uniforms are common because it promotes uniformity--military bearing and soldierization. furthermore, you're not going to wear some Abercrombie crap in the jungle or desert--that's why you wear a woodland or desert-print uniform. Pretty simple.

in the military you simply can't have soldiers doing their own thing. It's chaotic, undisciplined, and looks like a pile of steaming poo.

so in short you're really off base in your interpretation of uniforms.
and white uniforms in the snow....

patly right, but its also to be a link of the machine

"you're out of your mind if you believe that. Military folks aren't robots or dehumanised at all. Far from it."

Do you think living in awful conditions dosnt make most human beings weak?
Once one has started being cruel, it becomes, for many, normal to kill,

"The constant focus is on troop welfare--everything from family/home life to respect, equal opportunity, no sexual harrassment, and substantial education and self-improvement opportunities."

The focus is on the ennemy, not on troop welfare.
And dont you think those boys actually miss the secual harrassment?
Substantial education? I think there are other places then a battle ground to achieve a substantial education.

Self-improvement? sure, being wounded and spending the rest of your life cripple is one.
     
Mohammed Atef
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Oct 31, 2003, 08:57 PM
 
Originally posted by Lerkfish:
um, no actually you've just reinforced my interpretation. The ultimate purpose of a uniform is conformity, as you suggest. That makes each soldier a brick of equal size.
Therefore, each brick is uniform, disposable and replaceable. If all soldiers not only LOOK alike on the battlefield, but also as you correctly point out, ACT alike on the battlefield, it minimizes the debilitating grief of your fellow soldiers as you are eliminitated off the battlefield.
no, no, no. Uniforms aren't for conformity but uniformity--creating and maintaining the appearance of a homogenous organisation. Additionally, you have no idea what it's like to be with soldiers under combat conditions. You build bonds and get to know one another, and when one goes down, wearing the same uniform does nothing to minimize or diminish the pain and loss. On the battlefield your fellow soldiers aren't cogs in the wheel or 'disposable and replaceable' as you ignorantly puked out. Go chew your rancid, pseudo-psychological cud someplace else.
and to make a further point about the dehumanizing nature of the military...it seeks to categorize deaths by accounting terms...collateral damage instead of civilian deaths, for example. In all ways it attempts to distance itself from the humanity of what is happening in war.
no argument with you there.
The purpose of a military (no matter whose) is to efficiently slaughter human beings, hopefully on the other side more often than on your side. This is an inhumane act. Any way to anesthetize the soldier to the sheer brutality of the act is a goal.
lots of soldiers never get 'dehumanised'. Some do, and that's when you get massacres. However, the sheer rarity of these acts by the US military speaks to the soldiers' ability to stay human, whereas pukes like the Nazis were able to dehumanise the Jews and desensitise their soldiers to murder 6 million, and the Soviets went through Berlin burning and raping.

furthermore, you're wrong about the ultimate purpose of a military--it isn't to 'efficiently slaughter' as many as possible, but to defend one's country and win wars. Often the defense can be achieved without ever firing a shot--a strong military deters aggression against it. Additionally, a military may win wars with intentionally avoiding large numbers of deaths, military or civilian. The ultimate goal is to achieve victory. We saw that done against Milosevic, where attacks were directed against infrastructure and his power bases, and in Iraq against Saddam's army. Many Iraqi soldiers were killed, but if the goal was to eliminate as many as possible, much more could have been done.

so again you're wrong about uniforms and you're doubly wrong about the purpose of a military.
     
Mohammed Atef
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Oct 31, 2003, 09:03 PM
 
Originally posted by swrate:
The focus is on the ennemy, not on troop welfare.
And dont you think those boys actually miss the secual harrassment?
Substantial education? I think there are other places then a battle ground to achieve a substantial education.

Self-improvement? sure, being wounded and spending the rest of your life cripple is one.
this is so stupid. The primary focus is on war-fighting, but commanders are devoted to troop welfare. If a soldier's home life is messed up, he's not going to be focused at work in the USA or on the battlefield.

your sexual harrassment comment is idiotic and devoid of intellectual merit.

you totally missed the lesson on education. Reread the post and maybe you'll get it a second or third time around.

self-improvement is related to career-long training, education, and building a support system and circle of friends that will lead to improvement in many areas, yourself being one of them. Your sh*tbrained comment about being wounded is irrelevant.
     
Sven G
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Nov 1, 2003, 05:50 AM
 
Originally posted by Mohammed Atef:
self-improvement is related to career-long training, education, and building a support system and circle of friends that will lead to improvement in many areas, yourself being one of them.
So you seek those thing in the army, of all places, rather than in everyday life (in society, in poor words)...? How bizarre...

The freedom of all is essential to my freedom. - Mikhail Bakunin
     
Mohammed Atef
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Nov 1, 2003, 12:04 PM
 
Originally posted by Sven G:
So you seek those thing in the army, of all places, rather than in everyday life (in society, in poor words)...? How bizarre...
No, infidel, many don't seek them in the army. Rather, the army makes them available to its soldiers who, because of their commitment and service to their nation, may not have the time or resources to develop themselves in the civilian sector/society.
     
voodoo
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Nov 1, 2003, 03:33 PM
 
... and Atef earns more abuse reports

fun for the whole family!!
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
Mohammed Atef
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Nov 1, 2003, 03:45 PM
 
Originally posted by voodoo:
... and Atef earns more abuse reports

fun for the whole family!!
why don't you stop hiding behind the abuse link and tell me what offended you here. You're overly sensitive. voodoo got an emotional boo-boo. oh, poor voodoo with his boo-boo.
     
voodoo
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Nov 1, 2003, 03:56 PM
 
Originally posted by Mohammed Atef:
why don't you stop hiding behind the abuse link and tell me what offended you here. You're overly sensitive. voodoo got an emotional boo-boo. oh, poor voodoo with his boo-boo.
Telling you is redundant but hey:

1. you are trolling
2. you are calling people names

=> abuse report
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
Spliffdaddy
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Nov 1, 2003, 04:08 PM
 
Get a grip.

In case you forgot, this is an internet discussion forum.

To be offended here means there is no limit to what might offend you.
     
Mohammed Atef
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Nov 1, 2003, 05:26 PM
 
Originally posted by voodoo:
Telling you is redundant but hey:

1. you are trolling
2. you are calling people names

=> abuse report
no I'm not trolling. I'm putting out my opinion and countering the propaganda and lies of others. You call that trolling. You're out to get anyone who exposes your lies and filth and undermines the lies and filth of your ilk.
     
 
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