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bettafish · Dec 29, 2003, 08:47 PM

Currently, I am a bit disappointed in Apples flexability in their design of Powerbooks. Im not saying their �bad,� Im saying they could be even better if Apple made them as flexable as the PB G3.
Therefore, I think future Powerbooks should incorperate the design of the Powerbook G3. Why?

1)The PB G3 had two expansion bay options, one which could hold a battery, and the other which could hold an optical/storage drive.

2)Current models are expandable due to their high speed ports(newer firewire, USB 2.0), but I dislike the fact that you have to use external drives to expand the functionality. (Zip drive, floppy drive, extra battery)�because some people still use floppies and zip drives.

3)Having anything �built in� to a laptop is a total advantage, and having it removable is even better. This was the PB G3�s advantage, you could swap a CD-ROM or DVD drive and pop in another battery. Therefore achieving double battery life.

4)I dislike the fact that current models have drives which are not removable. (I realize they can be removed, but this requires opening the unit and tediously removing the component.) If Apple were to incorporate removable drives in their upcoming Powerbook line, I think this would be a big advantage.

5)Slot loading drives�no. Maybe some of you will disagree with me on this one, but I shudder at the fact that Apple has slot loading drives in all their new units. My friend A.J owns a PB G4, and his CD got stuck inside the drive. (I don�t think this is a large problem�but it is a concern.)

I am not putting down Powerbooks, or saying their bad units, I am simply saying that these units would be even better if they had these features.(In my opinion). I mean, why wouldn�t someone want the option of having two batteries at once? Or the ease to pop in another drive(hard drive for example)�without the use of dangling an external drive from the USB port? If anyone disagrees with my posting, Im sorry. Im just wondering if anyone out there also misses the convenient drive bays? And If there is anyone out there who would like to see them incorporated in newer PB models?

ibook_steve · Dec 29, 2003, 08:59 PM

It's a nice dream you have there, but think about this. What is an expansion bay when there's nothing in it? Empty, tall space. There is absolutely no way Apple could make Powerbooks as slim or, in the case of the 12", as small if there were bays. Batteries take up enough space and weight as it is. Two batteries would just add to the weight. Don't hold your breath for a return to expansion bays.

Steve

Phat Bastard · Dec 29, 2003, 08:59 PM

Expansion bays took up too much space. They were removed so the Powerbook could slim down. Look at how much thinner the first Titanium was versus the latest Powerbook G3, it's like night and day. Since laptops are first and foremost mobile computing stations, making the laptop more mobile by making it slimmer and lighter is a smart thing in my opinion.

Additional hard drives aren't so in vogue now-a-days because of the incredible capacity of thin platter hard drives...80 GB should be good enough for most people. As for additional batteries, I agree with you there...it would be nice to have an additional battery on a long plane trip or times like that. But at the price of keeping the laptop slim and light, I wouldn't bring them back.

As for floppy and zip drives--are you kidding? Apple abandoned these archaic technologies ages ago. And good riddance! I'd much rather use a USB floppy drive (with hundreds of times more capacity than a floppy disk) any day.

k2director · Dec 29, 2003, 10:23 PM

I had a PBook G3 and never had any love for the expansion bays. I spent way too much energy thinking about what "add-on" device I needed to bring with me that particular moment (second battery? CD? zip drive?), and often got caught without the right one.

The VAST majority of users prefer an all-in-one design, no complications. Most people don't need to have ZIP drives or second hard drives built into their computer, they can just use an add-on. I think Apple made the right choice with the G4 Pbooks, considering what most people need from their machines.

filmmaker2002 · Dec 29, 2003, 10:33 PM

I don't think its worth thickening the Powerbook to hold two batteries when it takes about 10 seconds to swap out your battery with a fresh one anyway.

hardcat1970 · Dec 30, 2003, 01:21 AM

Originally posted by ibook_steve:
It's a nice dream you have there, but think about this. What is an expansion bay when there's nothing in it? Empty, tall space. There is absolutely no way Apple could make Powerbooks as slim or, in the case of the 12", as small if there were bays. Batteries take up enough space and weight as it is. Two batteries would just add to the weight. Don't hold your breath for a return to expansion bays.

Steve

i have to disagree with that. The IBM Thinkpad T41 is about 1.2" thick, weighs less than 5lbs, very durable and has a 14" inch screen. It also can swap batteries, optical drives and even hard disk and has a pci card slot. Somehow i wonder why can't apple do this. Although i have to admit that the apple laptops look much better. Still, i think the original poster has a point there.

It is very easy for me to swap the hard drive in my pismo but it is too damn painful to swap a drive in my 12" powerbook.

hardcat1970 · Dec 30, 2003, 01:24 AM

Originally posted by filmmaker2002:
I don't think its worth thickening the Powerbook to hold two batteries when it takes about 10 seconds to swap out your battery with a fresh one anyway.

I can't hot swap the battery on my 12" powerbook. I don't know if apple crippled this feature so people would look up to the 15". But it would be nice if i can hot swap the battery like all other powerbooks should do.

bmhome1 · Dec 30, 2003, 02:03 AM

Apple dumped expansion bays for the same reason they dumped daughter processor cards, user-installable hard drives and un-soldered RAM chips: outdate the products as soon as possible.

My three year old Pismo has a 900mz upgraded processor, a 24X CD-R module that cost $90, 1GB RAM and a 60GB hard drive, while still under warranty, none of the updates voiding Applecare (at least if sent in stock).

Apple CAN make a sub 1" thick laptop with expansion bays, but you won't ever see them again from Apple.

cdhostage · Dec 30, 2003, 03:25 AM

I had a Pismo, and managed to pick up as bargains an extra battery, a VST SuperDrive, a Zip Drive, the original DVD drive, and a hard disk. All for the right hand expansion bay. Now, my 15Al can't deal with any of them, and I don't miss any. When I need some other form of storage, I use an external solution. The option to have two batteries inside was nice. Two batteries means that you can have them both in, charged fully, run them for six hours at work, and come back and leave the thing plugged in and not have to think about switching anything.

Graymalkin · Dec 30, 2003, 03:58 AM

Expansion bays went the way of the floppy. The reason they did so is several technologies filled the role the expansion bay used to fill, or allowed to be filled as it were.

Expansion bays were a way to add media bays to laptops without adding a hassle of wires. Drives that connected via PCMCIA adapters were a PITA to work with on trains or airplanes and external SCSI drives needed power supplies. With an internal expansion bays you could switch the laptop's functions with a few levers and clicks.

The problem arose when you had an expansion bay that went unused. The extra mechanics and electronics were taking up space and bulking up the laptop. Unused drives were also a waste of money when they weren't used. An expansion bay Zip drive or floppy isn't much use on your home desktop.

As more drives became multi-purpose the need to switch out drives all the time became less and less drastic. A single DVD/CD-RW drive replaces two expansion bay drives. A SuperDrive three. A bus powered USB Zip drive can be used at home on the desktop and taken on the road for when you absolutely need that Zip disk. USB and Firewire supplanted SCSI and PCMCIA for connecting external devices, much to the benefit of end users everywhere. An expansion bay in modern Powerbooks would be wasted 99% of the time. That extra 1% would be someone who paid $150 for an expansion bay floppy drive instead of $40 for a USB one.

My 12" Powerbook has a SuperDrive, Bluetooth, and an AP Extreme card. Along with the side ports I can connect to just about any network or peripheral. My SuperDrive reads and writes just about anything round, flat, and shiny and a $30 USB device will read any type of memory card media I can find. I'd much rather have the 5lb laptop than an expansion bay that is going unused.

typoon · Dec 30, 2003, 10:04 AM

Originally posted by Graymalkin:
Expansion bays went the way of the floppy. The reason they did so is several technologies filled the role the expansion bay used to fill, or allowed to be filled as it were.

Expansion bays were a way to add media bays to laptops without adding a hassle of wires. Drives that connected via PCMCIA adapters were a PITA to work with on trains or airplanes and external SCSI drives needed power supplies. With an internal expansion bays you could switch the laptop's functions with a few levers and clicks.

The problem arose when you had an expansion bay that went unused. The extra mechanics and electronics were taking up space and bulking up the laptop. Unused drives were also a waste of money when they weren't used. An expansion bay Zip drive or floppy isn't much use on your home desktop.

As more drives became multi-purpose the need to switch out drives all the time became less and less drastic. A single DVD/CD-RW drive replaces two expansion bay drives. A SuperDrive three. A bus powered USB Zip drive can be used at home on the desktop and taken on the road for when you absolutely need that Zip disk. USB and Firewire supplanted SCSI and PCMCIA for connecting external devices, much to the benefit of end users everywhere. An expansion bay in modern Powerbooks would be wasted 99% of the time. That extra 1% would be someone who paid $150 for an expansion bay floppy drive instead of $40 for a USB one.

My 12" Powerbook has a SuperDrive, Bluetooth, and an AP Extreme card. Along with the side ports I can connect to just about any network or peripheral. My SuperDrive reads and writes just about anything round, flat, and shiny and a $30 USB device will read any type of memory card media I can find. I'd much rather have the 5lb laptop than an expansion bay that is going unused.

Great Post. Another thing that needs to be mentioned is that CD-R's these days cost pennies. 50 cents maybe a little more at most. I would rather burn to A cd then put things on a Zip Disk. The majority if not all Machines have a CD drive in them these days therefore basically making the ZIP obsolete. I'm not saying totally because it is easier to rewrite or update a ZIP disk than it is a CD-R but once again the cost of the disks is so minimal it's almost not worth getting a ZIP Disk. I have one in my desktop at home and I can count the number of times I used it this year on one hand. I usually just burn everything to CD or DVD if I need to.

ingeniero · Dec 30, 2003, 01:34 PM

Originally posted by bmhome1:
Apple dumped expansion bays for the same reason they dumped daughter processor cards, user-installable hard drives and un-soldered RAM chips: outdate the products as soon as possible.

My three year old Pismo has a 900mz upgraded processor, a 24X CD-R module that cost $90, 1GB RAM and a 60GB hard drive, while still under warranty, none of the updates voiding Applecare (at least if sent in stock).

Apple CAN make a sub 1" thick laptop with expansion bays, but you won't ever see them again from Apple.

where can you buy that 24X CD-R module for $90 for the Pismo PB? I haven't seen one for less than $200.

FYI, i'm waiting for a Rev B on the new Alu. 15" before upgrading to a new PB. However, I do love the fact of having 2 batteries in my Pismo!!

Drakino · Dec 30, 2003, 02:24 PM

Slot loading drives�no. Maybe some of you will disagree with me on this one, but I shudder at the fact that Apple has slot loading drives in all their new units. My friend A.J owns a PB G4, and his CD got stuck inside the drive. (I don�t think this is a large problem�but it is a concern.)

Sloat loading drives in a laptop, yes. Reduces the chances of that tray from getting broken off. I'm suprised it took Apple this long to see this as an advantage and to switch over the iBook to a slot load.

The only disadvantage I see is the new slot load drives don't accept the mini-CDs like the slot load drive in my Cube does. In place of floppies or even puny Zip disks, i use mini-cdrw disks. 210 megs a pop, and any machine out there can read them. For the Powerbook, I carry a full size CDRW and a DVD-RW disc in the bag with me, much easier then a zip drive, cables, and disks.

Expansion bays are not needed anymore, since people have no need for non optical media these days. If you do, your just kidding yourself. Sure, Zip disks can hold 750mb now, but how many machines do you come across with even a Zip100 these days? And even if the system doesn't have a CD burner, it's likely to have a USB port, allowing a USB memory module to be used.

2 batteries, not overly needed. Apple just needs to bulk up the one they include in the 15 inch Powerbooks again.

bmhome1 · Dec 30, 2003, 02:31 PM

It is all about hard drives for expansion bay devices: I have 7 hard drive expansion bays, I can have 120GB (60x2) on board, all at full speed, no cables or externals. Can't beat that!

The 24X CRD/DVD module I recommend is the Lite-On LSC-24081M for $88- 100 from pcboost.com or gearxs.com. Panther recognized, fully supported finder burning, faceplate fits with just small gap at bottom.

Slipping in that drive in a bay drive module in less than three minutes didn't hurt either.

tooki · Dec 30, 2003, 04:27 PM

I love the expansion bays, but for a reason nobody mentioned: charging.

On my new AlBook, I have two batteries. Once I have charged one battery, I have to swap it out manually to charge the next one.

On my Pismo, on the other hand, I could put both batteries into the machine before going to bed, and when I woke up in the morning, both batteries were full, with no intervention, since the Pismo will charge them sequentially automatically.

tooki

yoyoman · Dec 30, 2003, 04:43 PM

no wires key word blue tooth.

Who wnats a thick note book again? I never have problems with expansion. I got every thing I need. swaping a battery is as easy as a 1 button mouse its so easy.

hardcat1970 · Dec 30, 2003, 05:25 PM

Originally posted by yoyoman:
no wires key word blue tooth.

Who wnats a thick note book again? I never have problems with expansion. I got every thing I need. swaping a battery is as easy as a 1 button mouse its so easy.

Having an expansion bay doesn't mean it must add thickness to the notebook.

-Q- · Dec 30, 2003, 06:00 PM

Can't say I miss expansion bays - probably b/c I've never had a laptop that supported them.

But other than an extended battery life, I can't really see a point for expansion bays anymore. I'm glad the laptop went the thin route. They're much more useful to me now as they're much more convenient to take everywhere and the only thing I really need to pack is the power supply.

I think spending any design time on expansion bays would be a waste of resources. Spend that time on designing batteries that will start competing with these centrino times I keep seeing reported...

ingeniero · Dec 31, 2003, 01:00 AM

Originally posted by bmhome1:
The 24X CRD/DVD module I recommend is the Lite-On LSC-24081M for $88- 100 from pcboost.com or gearxs.com. Panther recognized, fully supported finder burning, faceplate fits with just small gap at bottom.

Thanks!

jasong · Dec 31, 2003, 07:52 PM

Apple dumped expansion bays for the same reason they dumped daughter processor cards, user-installable hard drives and un-soldered RAM chips: outdate the products as soon as possible.

My three year old Pismo has a 900mz upgraded processor, a 24X CD-R module that cost $90, 1GB RAM and a 60GB hard drive, while still under warranty, none of the updates voiding Applecare (at least if sent in stock).

Your examples don't really hold up. The cheap CD-R you mention isn't a drop in replacement, it has to be assembled to fit. Yes, I am sure it was easy, but the majority of Pismo owners need to buy the expensive module. Also, as was noted, the optical drive in the Ti-Books is replaceable as well. 1 GB of RAM, I can get that into my "unexpandable" Ti-Book as well. 60 GB hard drive? I have that too.

That processor upgrade most certainly would have voided your AppleCare warranty if it still existed at the time of the upgrade. The Pismo was 2 years in its grave by the time those were released.

Don't get me wrong. I loved my Pismo, up until my Ti-Book it was my favorite Mac. It is still happily in service today and brought me a fair amount of cash given it's age. And while I used the media bay extensively at first, I ended up rarely using it towards the end. 1. I stopped using Zip disks (and when I did, I had an external one from work so I could plug it into another machine). 2. Couldn't use the 2nd battery while watching a DVD, so the drive could have been fixed for all I cared. 3. My Pismo got awesome battery life, seriously, I would watch a movie and get 2 hours of work done on a flight cross country on one battery. Now THAT I miss.

In all, I don't miss the media bay at all. I love my Ti-Book and hope whatever replaces it is thinner still.

-- Jason

bmhome1 · 09:32 PM

The CD-R takes all of four screws. Installs in 90 seconds. Spare modules are $40. Anyone who can't handle that should stay with their ancient DVD-ROM.

Soldered in RAM isn't very expandable is it? How much would it cost to let poor iBook users get past 640MB for all time?

My Pismo IS still under warranty. It goes back with the original processor card re-installed. Theyr'e called daughter cards. Buy a spare to modify, not the original. That's the whole point.

Why does the mention of expansion bays bring endless blather about Zipdisks? Who in their right mind cares about THAT anymore? How about full bus-speed hard drives? Slipping in a 4X DVD Superdrive when available. Or choosing a slot-drive module.

Good luck opening any G4 Powerbook still under warranty for anything, including hard drives themselves now. THAT sucks IMHO.

How can eliminating user replaceable hard drives (known to fail eventually) be anything but poor design or intentional hobbling?

The fact of the matter is that while PC laptops become more and more expandable (how about their upcoming plugin video card upgrades?), Apple has regressed to the point of either love it or dump it and buy new.

That's not being innovative. That's the definition of planned obselescence.

legionare · Jan 2, 2004, 04:34 PM

Just save all the excuses defending the removal of expansion/battery bay. When Apple took away the analog audio-in port on the early TiBook, we've heard them all.

PBAddict · Jan 4, 2004, 07:12 AM

I love the expansion bays on my Pismo, slip a second battery in and you have about 8 to 9 hours of use. I also have a 2nd HD, but to be honest have not really used.

Dr.Michael · Jan 4, 2004, 08:03 AM

Originally posted by bettafish:
Currently, I am a bit disappointed in Apples flexability in their design of Powerbooks. etc.

bettafish,

right you are!
The Pismo was my favourite Powerbook until now BECAUSE of the expansion bays. I used a second battery on the road (once a month) and that was great.
Now, with my 12 inch Powerbook I have only 3.5 hours of juice. That sucks. And carrying a second battery in my bag is only a second rate option. Why do we put our toothbrush and -paste and all this into a bag? Because its favourable to have it kept together instead of having it flying around somewhere, isn't it?

And the use of a weight saving module instead of an optical drive gives the option to have a LIGHTER Powerbook. So bays can make Powerbooks lighter not heavier like some posters here stated.

I liked the freedom of choice that the Pismo gave me.
As I bought it, I would have liked my 12 inch Powerbook with a 5400 rpm drive - not a bto option. Now I would like to have the 7200 rpm drive. Lose my guaranty then and can save my money for apple care which is badly needed for a Powerbook IMO. So I 'am stuck with the lame 4200 60 GB drive :-(.

Bad.

new newton · Jan 4, 2004, 09:34 AM

Having owned a Bronze, TiBook, and now a 12" I've gone from one of the more expandable Powerbooks to the least expandable Powerbook.

I don't miss anything.

Flexability in and of itself is useless. I hated carrying around extra expansion bay modules. Now I have everything I need right onboard in a great package. I don't even miss the PC card slot(s).

The needs of the mobile professional aren't as diverse today as they were four years ago--meaning that the best solutions have won out, and for the most part we're now free from legacy devices. My 12" has far more connectivity options than my Bronze ever did even with the different expansion bay devices. I've got no desire to make this thing into a desktop with every device known to man in my bag or hanging off of it--I've got a desktop for that. The current PB provides everything that's needed.

parsec_kadets · Jan 5, 2004, 03:36 PM

I fail to see the use for ZIP disks anymore. I mean, if you already have money invested in them, sure. But I really doubt you will even be able to buy ANY computer, desktop or laptop, with a zip drive built in in another year or two. I say this because USB thumb drives are becoming so popular and cheap these days. I can even see them surpassing the CD some day. I mean, you can take one of those things to any computer that has a USB port. They're small, have a fairly large capacity (they get bigger every day), and fast now that USB 2.0 is catching on.

Also, count me as one of those who feel the only good use for bays these days is a second battery. Guess what, PC manufacturers are finding ways around that too. Just look at some of the VAIOs with their extension things that double the battery (and the thickness). I doubt Apple will create a solution like this, but I wouldn't be surprised if a third party did.

PBAddict · Jan 5, 2004, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by parsec_kadets:
I fail to see the use for ZIP disks anymore. I mean, if you already have money invested in them, sure. But I really doubt you will even be able to buy ANY computer, desktop or laptop, with a zip drive built in in another year or two. I say this because USB thumb drives are becoming so popular and cheap these days. I can even see them surpassing the CD some day. I mean, you can take one of those things to any computer that has a USB port. They're small, have a fairly large capacity (they get bigger every day), and fast now that USB 2.0 is catching on.

Also, count me as one of those who feel the only good use for bays these days is a second battery. Guess what, PC manufacturers are finding ways around that too. Just look at some of the VAIOs with their extension things that double the battery (and the thickness). I doubt Apple will create a solution like this, but I wouldn't be surprised if a third party did.

I totally agree, I was tidying out my cupboard and came across som Zip Disks ( I have a Zip drive in my B&W G3) and i thought I really can't see why I would use them again, what with CDs and Flash Rom drives