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Used Nikon D70?
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tooki
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Jan 20, 2006, 01:34 PM
 
Hey,

I am looking to buy a Nikon D70 camera (I am basically considering the D70 and D70s to be the same camera, since they are practically identical and the differences are irrelevant to me, so I will just say "D70" throughout to mean either one) with the standard 18-70mm kit lens that costs $300-350 on its own.

The D70 is basically a two year old model now, so I am loathe to pay full price for a camera that's likely to be replaced with a new model within the next 3-12 months, likely at the same or lower cost.

The three options I see are:
-buy full price, new, from a reputable camera shop ($1150-1200)
-buy new from a sketchy dealer in Brooklyn ($1050)
-buy used from local camera shop ($800, when available)

I don't want to deal with eBay. The prices aren't good enough to offset the hassle and risk. The new D50 doesn't have features I want, and the D200 is simply more than I can afford.

Anyway, do you guys think that getting a used D70 is a sensible alternative to new? Why or why not?

tooki
     
tooki  (op)
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Jan 20, 2006, 01:39 PM
 
P.S. I am not interested in the Canon Digital Rebel series -- I can't stand the "plastickey" feel, the controls aren't as nice, and above all, I already have Nikon glass that I want to use.
     
Maflynn
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Jan 20, 2006, 01:41 PM
 
One thing to consider is the gray market. buying new camera from a sketchy dealer may mean its a non US camera. Nikon will not honor the warranty or even fix it if is, you need to be careful with extremely cheap prices. They (Nikon) take a hard line when it comes to the gray market.

Since you don't want to deal with ebay then your options are somewhat limited, what about craigslist.

Take a look at B & H they typically have excellent prices. Also adorama has decent prices and both are reputable.

Mike
     
tooki  (op)
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Jan 20, 2006, 01:45 PM
 
I was only mentioning authorized dealers, USA gear, not gray. I am, obviously, familiar with B&H and Adorama (who isn't?!?). They are included in the "reputable shop" category above. But my point is that I am loathe to spend full price for one new, when it's 2 year old technology that's likely going to be replaced with a new model soon.

My question isn't where to find used gear. My question is whether people think buying used is a good idea or not, and why.

tooki
     
paul w
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Jan 20, 2006, 01:50 PM
 
adorama has the body in stock for $899. I've bought from them when B&H was out of stock (which they are in this case. They have the body plus kit lens for over a thousand). Adorama also has a couple used bodies in the 600 dollar range. I've never bought used from them, but having worked in the photo district years ago I was always satisfied with them.

I personally would go new body route and buy the lens I want, not the less than wonderful kit lens.
     
paul w
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Jan 20, 2006, 01:54 PM
 
As far as buying used, I feel comfortable when it's a technology I can understand and fix easily. Older camera bodies were easier to gauge in that respect. But I'm a bit leary when there's a sensitive digital sensor involved. Lenses too can have very subtle defects, older ones corrosion that can be hard to spot at first.

It's unlikely you'll find cheaper than B&H or Adorama, new. You may have to bite the bullet OR consider the D50, which is a really nice camera in its own right.
     
tooki  (op)
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Jan 20, 2006, 01:55 PM
 
Again, the body at full price doesn't make sense -- it's a 2 year old model, probably about to be replaced.

Also, the kit lens is a $350 lens, and has been highly regarded. (It's a sharp lens with silent wave motor, internal focusing, ED glass, etc). If you're used to using Canon kit lenses, then I can understand your skepticism. This is a real lens. As it happens, I don't have an everyday lens, so I kinda need one, and you can do far, far worse than this.

tooki
     
tooki  (op)
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Jan 20, 2006, 01:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by paul w
It's unlikely you'll find cheaper than B&H or Adorama, new.
Right. Which is why this thread is asking about used gear. I already know where to find new stuff, but I have said repeatedly that I am reluctant to spend full price on what is soon to be outdated gear.
Originally Posted by paul w
You may have to bite the bullet OR consider the D50, which is a really nice camera in its own right.
As I already said in the original post, the D50 lacks features that I absolutely want. It is not an option.

So, would anybody else like to comment on whether a used D70 is a good idea, and why or why not?

tooki
     
villalobos
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Jan 20, 2006, 02:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by tooki
I was only mentioning authorized dealers, USA gear, not gray. I am, obviously, familiar with B&H and Adorama (who isn't?!?). They are included in the "reputable shop" category above. But my point is that I am loathe to spend full price for one new, when it's 2 year old technology that's likely going to be replaced with a new model soon.

My question isn't where to find used gear. My question is whether people think buying used is a good idea or not, and why.

tooki
I have one and took about 12,000 pics with it (in desert/sand, snow and sea salt conditions). It works fine. These cameras seem to be pretty reliable. So if you can find a used one from somebody you think did not mishandled it, go for it. Craigslist could be one source to consider as well.
     
tooki  (op)
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Jan 20, 2006, 02:04 PM
 
One other topic for this thread: the pixel peeper sites' forums seem to think that a new model replacing the D70s is still 1-2 years off. If that's the case, then I'd just get a new one. Does anyone here know anything more about Nikon's replacement cycles?

tooki
     
villalobos
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Jan 20, 2006, 02:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by tooki
One other topic for this thread: the pixel peeper sites' forums seem to think that a new model replacing the D70s is still 1-2 years off. If that's the case, then I'd just get a new one. Does anyone here know anything more about Nikon's replacement cycles?

tooki
Check dpreview.com and the forum there for speculations. I don't think anybody saw coming the D70s and D50 more than a few months in advance.
     
tooki  (op)
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Jan 20, 2006, 02:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by villalobos
Craigslist could be one source to consider as well.
I've been watching the local craigslist, and have never once seen a used D70. Just about the only people who sell their D70's are the ones who are now upgrading to the D200.

tooki
     
villalobos
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Jan 20, 2006, 02:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by tooki
I've been watching the local craigslist, and have never once seen a used D70. Just about the only people who sell their D70's are the ones who are now upgrading to the D200.

tooki
Drive to NYC. There are some there on Craigslist. :-)
There is one for $650 in Princeton, NJ. 2.5 h drive for you.
     
tooki  (op)
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Jan 20, 2006, 02:13 PM
 
Heh, for that much effort I'd just buy a new one!

tooki
     
paul w
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Jan 20, 2006, 02:13 PM
 
I'm sure it's probably painfully obvious tooki, but this is the sort of question I'd ask the folks at dpreview's excellent forums.

Someone once mentioned on another forum that the shutter has an expected lifespan of about 50,000 fires. If this is indeed true it's something to consider. How much has the used one been fired? No way to know.
     
villalobos
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Jan 20, 2006, 02:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by tooki
Heh, for that much effort I'd just buy a new one!

tooki
But then you can go up to Manhattan and play with your new toy.
     
villalobos
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Jan 20, 2006, 02:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by paul w
I'm sure it's probably painfully obvious tooki, but this is the sort of question I'd ask the folks at dpreview's excellent forums.

Someone once mentioned on another forum that the shutter has an expected lifespan of about 50,000 fires. If this is indeed true it's something to consider. How much has the used one been fired? No way to know.
This is a good point. People tend to take WAY more pics in digital like me and my 12,000 in 1.5 year for instance...). And the shutter mechanisms are not necessarily planned for that.
     
tooki  (op)
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Jan 20, 2006, 02:18 PM
 
Some cameras have built-in "odometers", and I have seen some people on eBay mention the number of "actuations". But I downloaded the D70 manual and haven't been able to find any way to see the total counter. Is there any way to find out? Can dealers hook it up to servicing software and find out? Is there a hidden service menu?

tooki
     
tooki  (op)
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Jan 20, 2006, 02:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by villalobos
But then you can go up to Manhattan and play with your new toy.
I was only in NYC one time (in Manhattan, as a matter of fact) and I hated it. The big city's just not for me!

tooki
     
Ron Goodman
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Jan 20, 2006, 02:32 PM
 
Once you upgrade the firmware in the D70 there's very little difference between it and the D70s other than a slightly larger LCD in the D70s.
     
tooki  (op)
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Jan 20, 2006, 02:37 PM
 
Uh, I know. I already said that I know the differences, and didn't consider them big. The complete list of differences: 1) default firmware, 2) flash throw, 3) 2.0" display instead of 1.8", 4) remote shutter release socket, 5) included EN-EL3a battery in place of EN-EL3, 6) no included lithium battery holder.

tooki
     
CMYKid
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Jan 20, 2006, 02:40 PM
 
I've seen more than a few D70s for sale here on 'NN. You should really check out nikonians.org, tons of users there and a lot of them, like myself, have just upgraded to D200s and are looking to unload their D70s. Kinda like some of the forums here a lot of the nikonians people are pro or power users so their gear has been pretty well taken care of.
     
tooki  (op)
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Jan 20, 2006, 03:18 PM
 
Isn't a pro's camera more likely to be worn out?

tooki
     
jersey
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Jan 20, 2006, 04:29 PM
 
I've shot several thousand images with my used d70 from b+h. They also offer a 2 or 3 yr warranty for around $40. I never hesitate to go b+h used. Plus the next day air shipping to you would be less than sales tax.
     
climber
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Jan 20, 2006, 05:12 PM
 
tooki,

I just got the D200. I have the D70, and no longer need it. It is the body only. I have the original box, manual, etc. If you want to see some photos that I have taken with it, check my website.

The D70 has not been used since I got the D200, and I can always use the money for more lenses. It has shot just under 10k photos. The condition is excellent. I considered putting it up on ebay, but that is not my thing. Let me know if you are interested.

Dave

http://expeditionphotography.com
( Last edited by climber; Jan 20, 2006 at 07:20 PM. )
     
misc
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Jan 20, 2006, 07:42 PM
 
Have you checked out the Canon line that's higher than the Rebels? I agree that they feel too "plastic", plus I don't like how they fit in my hands. Check out the 10D or 20D. There are some great used ones on bhphotovideo.com. Good luck!

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CMYKid
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Jan 20, 2006, 08:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by tooki
Isn't a pro's camera more likely to be worn out?

tooki
more like better maintained, regularly serviced, cleaned, kept in a case, etc.

anyway, even if the cameras life was so specifically finite as you're referencing, just because you're a pro doesnt necessarily mean you use it more, just better.

and really, that kit lens is NOT that great, especially up against others that you can buy for the same or less money than the difference between the price of the kit and body only. Also keep in mind that the 70/70s have both shipped with more than one lens as the kit lens over the course of their existence. A body like the one offered above and a lens bought separately is likely gonna net you the best deal.
     
climber
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Jan 20, 2006, 09:26 PM
 
Actually the kit lens that they originally sold with the D70 was pretty darn good (18-70 AFS). While not nearly as sharp as the pro lenses like the 28-70, it is much lighter and a lot less expensive. When I bought the D70 I chose to buy the 24-120 VR lens instead. It is considered less sharp than the 18-70, and not even close in quality to the pro lenses like the 28-70 or my all time favorite the 70-200 VR. But, after two years of shooting on the D70, my favorite photo was taken with my less expensive non-pro lens.

In my opinion, if you want a really good lens for not a lot of money, look at the fixed 50 f1.4. At 300 bucks it is one of Nikon's sharpest lenses. It is just not fast at focusing.

Dave
     
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Jan 20, 2006, 10:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by CMYKid
and really, that kit lens is NOT that great, especially up against others that you can buy for the same or less money than the difference between the price of the kit and body only. Also keep in mind that the 70/70s have both shipped with more than one lens as the kit lens over the course of their existence. A body like the one offered above and a lens bought separately is likely gonna net you the best deal.
The 18-70 mm lenses which are included are lightyears ahead of any other kit lens you've seen. It's got nothing to do with the cheap plastic lenses that are included with the D50 or Canon's Rebels.
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DeathToWindows
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Jan 21, 2006, 01:13 AM
 
Meh. I was lucky enough to get my D70 + Kit Lens for $900 a year back (used, off Craigslist Boston)

Yeah, for something like this, I'd say eBay is a little too sketchy...
I might try KEH.

Be aware that the early D70s had the GLOD issue... Nikon will repair it under the Service Advisory, but be forewarned.

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climber
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Jan 21, 2006, 01:40 AM
 
Here is one of my favorite images taken with my D70. The lens was the 24-120 VR shot with the help of the SB-800 flash.

http://expeditionphotography.com/other/dsc_0814.jpg

Tooki, I am serious about selling my camera. I will be up on the mountain skiing tomorrow with my D200. If the weather will cooperate! Since xmas all I have seen is cloudy weather with non stop snow. I want to take a few pics with some good light. Oh well I guess I can always just ski.

Dave
     
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Jan 21, 2006, 04:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie
The 18-70 mm lenses which are included are lightyears ahead of any other kit lens you've seen. It's got nothing to do with the cheap plastic lenses that are included with the D50 or Canon's Rebels.
"light years" is pushing it a bit, however what I was really getting at is the fact that, while it IS in fact a pretty good lens (depending on which version you got and what you want to do with it of course) its certainly not irreplaceable and you wont lose anything by buying the body from one person and a lens from another source. If it were me I'd be looking at Climbers body and a used high-end lens somewhere else.
     
OreoCookie
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Jan 21, 2006, 05:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by CMYKid
"light years" is pushing it a bit, however what I was really getting at is the fact that, while it IS in fact a pretty good lens (depending on which version you got and what you want to do with it of course) its certainly not irreplaceable and you wont lose anything by buying the body from one person and a lens from another source. If it were me I'd be looking at Climbers body and a used high-end lens somewhere else.
It just is a great value, especially when you compare the price of the bundle vs. the body. I've been thinking of getting a used D70 myself and most people who upgrade to the D200 (at least if I take their description at face value), they keep the standard bundle lens for the D200. It's the first bundle lens I've seen which has such a nice manual focus for instance.
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Jan 21, 2006, 05:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by tooki
But I downloaded the D70 manual and haven't been able to find any way to see the total counter. Is there any way to find out?
Take a picture, you will find it with a decent exif viewer (in fact the mac version I used is called Exif Viewer ). Even a "clean-the-sensor" counts as one actuation f.e.

Tooki, as having the D50, what are you missing? Flash? Gridlines?
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fhoubi
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Jan 21, 2006, 05:55 PM
 
Here ya' go.
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CMYKid
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Jan 22, 2006, 01:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie
It just is a great value, especially when you compare the price of the bundle vs. the body. I've been thinking of getting a used D70 myself and most people who upgrade to the D200 (at least if I take their description at face value), they keep the standard bundle lens for the D200. It's the first bundle lens I've seen which has such a nice manual focus for instance.

yeah, like i said, its pretty not bad, depending on what you are using it for. but buying a used body and a comparable lens for a few hundred still lands you pretty squarely in bargain territory.

i will say though, that fixed 50mm is a damn nice lens and a pretty good deal at about a hundred bucks too. everybody should have one.
     
tooki  (op)
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Jan 22, 2006, 02:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by fhoubi
1) Take a picture, you will find it with a decent exif viewer (in fact the mac version I used is called Exif Viewer ). Even a "clean-the-sensor" counts as one actuation f.e.

2) Tooki, as having the D50, what are you missing? Flash? Gridlines?
1) I asked Nikon, and it appears the Nikon DSLRs do not have a total actuation counter. File names are not reliable, since they can be reset to zero, or even roll over. There is no reliable way to actually know how how many times a Nikon DSLR has been used.

2) here's what's missing in the D50 for me:
- integrated Creative Lighting System controller
- Compact Flash media (I already have Compact Flash cards)
- depth of field preview
- backlit LCD (the one on top, not the rear TFT)

tooki
     
MaxPower2k3
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Jan 22, 2006, 02:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by CMYKid
yeah, like i said, its pretty not bad, depending on what you are using it for. but buying a used body and a comparable lens for a few hundred still lands you pretty squarely in bargain territory.

i will say though, that fixed 50mm is a damn nice lens and a pretty good deal at about a hundred bucks too. everybody should have one.


Got the 50mm f/1.8 Nikkor and love it. Pictures are really sharp and vibrant. The kit lens is a really good value, and I used it for a long time as my only lens, but when I got the 50mm I noticed immediately the added sharpness and color saturation. It's just too bad that I'd have to spend many times more than this one cost to get another lens with the same quality.

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tooki  (op)
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Jan 22, 2006, 02:22 PM
 
FYI, I already have a 60mm/2.8 Micro-Nikkor macro lens which is very sharp, so I probably won't bother with the 50mm prime, nice as it is.

tooki
     
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Jan 22, 2006, 02:34 PM
 
The only problem with those normal(ish) lenses on a DSLR is that they become telephoto. 50mm becomes ~80mm, 60mm becomes ~96mm. Sigma makes a 35mm f/1.8 lens that looks pretty nice and actually is normal on a DSLR, but it costs like 3 times as much as the Nikkor.

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Goldfinger
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Jan 22, 2006, 02:46 PM
 
Anyway, do you guys think that getting a used D70 is a sensible alternative to new? Why or why not?
I always buy second hand, granted I always buy pro gear but a camera is (should be) virtually indistructible.
I'm probably buying my first new camera this year, the D200. And it's new just because there aren't any used D200 available yet.

Originally Posted by tooki
1) I asked Nikon, and it appears the Nikon DSLRs do not have a total actuation counter. File names are not reliable, since they can be reset to zero, or even roll over. There is no reliable way to actually know how how many times a Nikon DSLR has been used.
Well, I know for fact that Nikon Service kan check the exact number on my F5. I'm pretty sure that they can see it on a D70 as well if they hook it up to their computer.
The user can't see it though.

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villalobos
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Jan 22, 2006, 02:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by MaxPower2k3


Got the 50mm f/1.8 Nikkor and love it. Pictures are really sharp and vibrant. The kit lens is a really good value, and I used it for a long time as my only lens, but when I got the 50mm I noticed immediately the added sharpness and color saturation. It's just too bad that I'd have to spend many times more than this one cost to get another lens with the same quality.
My vote for that amazingly cheap and good lens!!
     
jersey
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Jan 22, 2006, 03:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by fhoubi
Here ya' go.
thats a nice little exif viewer, thanks.

I shoot the 50 1.8 too, and I love that thing. I also love my 28 2.8. ebay...$50. Cant beat it. Well, unless you have the 28 1.8.
     
fhoubi
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Jan 22, 2006, 03:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by tooki
1) I asked Nikon, and it appears the Nikon DSLRs do not have a total actuation counter. File names are not reliable, since they can be reset to zero, or even roll over. There is no reliable way to actually know how how many times a Nikon DSLR has been used.
Are you deaf or what? I said Exif Data. Now who's lying, you, Nikon or me



Look there: camera actuations. One more than the filename, because I tried-out sensor cleaning once. Your turn.

Edit: removed memory card, took a dummy picture, put the card back in, took another picture. Camera actuations vs. filename is now 2 off .
( Last edited by fhoubi; Jan 22, 2006 at 05:06 PM. )
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fhoubi
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Jan 22, 2006, 04:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by tooki
1)2) here's what's missing in the D50 for me:
- integrated Creative Lighting System controller
- Compact Flash media (I already have Compact Flash cards)
- depth of field preview
- backlit LCD (the one on top, not the rear TFT)
-So you're are willing to buy a second-hand camera, and still need to throw one or more SB600/800 flashes in it. Makes no sense to me. I am happy with my first hand D50 & SB600.
- My cam came with a free Sandisk II extreme 1GB. Never used the CF of my old 300D again.
- DOF preview. Again, makes no sense with a 70% viewfinder compared to a analog DSLR.
- Backlit sucks somewhat. But in the dark you could find most info in the menus on the back lcd anyway.
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Goldfinger
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Jan 22, 2006, 04:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by fhoubi
-So you're are willing to buy a second-hand camera, and still need to throw one or more SB600/800 flashes in it. Makes no sense to me. I am happy with my first hand D50 & SB600.
What's that supposed to mean ?

- DOF preview. Again, makes no sense with a 70% viewfinder compared to a analog DSLR.
Wow.

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villalobos
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Jan 22, 2006, 05:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by fhoubi
Are you deaf or what? I said Exif Data. Now who's lying, you, Nikon or me


Look there: camera actuations. One more than the filename, because I tried-out sensor cleaning once. Your turn.

Edit: removed memory card, took a dummy picture, put the card back in, took another picture. Camera actuations vs. filename is now 2 off .
Interesting, I do not see that..... I don't think it works if one takes raw pictures. At any rate, the jped obtaines from the RAW with iPhoto does not give this data. And what's the point of having a dSLR if you don't shoot RAW?

Edit. here is what I get.

     
OreoCookie
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Jan 22, 2006, 05:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by fhoubi
-So you're are willing to buy a second-hand camera, and still need to throw one or more SB600/800 flashes in it. Makes no sense to me. I am happy with my first hand D50 & SB600.
- My cam came with a free Sandisk II extreme 1GB. Never used the CF of my old 300D again.
- DOF preview. Again, makes no sense with a 70% viewfinder compared to a analog DSLR.
- Backlit sucks somewhat. But in the dark you could find most info in the menus on the back lcd anyway.
First of all, there is a difference between the two cameras. Then, tooki said, he doesn't want a D50, he wants a D70(s). Judging from his knowledge, he knows why he wants that camera and not another.

If you're happy with your D50, that's fine.

To address your points here: I have CF cards with 1.1 GB worth of storage. If I can continue using them, I will.

DOF preview is a useful feature, even if the viewfinder is smaller compared to analog slrs.

A backlit lcd definitely is useful. I have one on my E-20 and I use it a lot when it's dark. The (large) lcd is a different animal, it's much quicker to change essential settings right on the lcd on top, even if you do something else with the lcd on the back.
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fhoubi
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Jan 22, 2006, 05:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by villalobos
Edit. here is what I get.
I am not familiar with iPhoto. Is the jpeg then an exact copy? I guess not, because it says "Camera Software Quicktime etc. When pulled directly from the D50 mine says "Version 1.00" only.

Edit: My mistake, overlooked "RAW". Just shoot one jpeg directly to test it?
I'm-a trying to wonder, wonder, wonder why you, wonder, wonder why you act so.
     
fhoubi
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Jan 22, 2006, 05:47 PM
 
Yes, I know and used DOF preview on my analog Canon heavily, but stopped using it because on the 300D I found the viewfinder just too small to notice.

A newer faster card can make sense than using older slow ones. In 4 or 9 pictures display playback I can scroll faster than I can see. Wonderful. It was painfully slow on the 300D.

Let's end bashing. Funny is the reason I choose to buy a D50 over the D70 was only to invest 2/3 of the money; in case it would be again a POS as my 300D I wouldn't have throw away again such amount of money. And I do not like buying second hand stuff. Turned out the D50 is a dream compared to the (on paper equally) 300D/Rebel. It is a 95% D70(S).
I'm-a trying to wonder, wonder, wonder why you, wonder, wonder why you act so.
     
 
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