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The Russian Connection (Page 14)
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Paco500
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Sep 16, 2017, 02:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'm claiming Trump didn't help the Russians affect the election, or take information from them to be used for that purpose.

Everything else is pretty much still on the table, especially if there was money in it.
And what I'm saying is that it's possible he did so even without an explicit desire to win the election.
     
subego
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Sep 16, 2017, 03:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
And what I'm saying is that it's possible he did so even without an explicit desire to win the election.
He helped the Russians affect the election?
     
Waragainstsleep
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Sep 16, 2017, 05:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'm claiming Trump didn't help the Russians affect the election, or take information from them to be used for that purpose.

Everything else is pretty much still on the table, especially if there was money in it.
I don't think Trump did much for the Russians beyond taking their help and talking nicely about them until he started copping too much flak for that which was when he stopped talking nice about them.

Most of what they did was media manipulation via FB campaigns, strategic data leaks and whatnot, but if they slipped Trump a juicy nugget or two to use there is no way in hell he is the sort of guy to not use them. My suspicions is it will come down to logistics. Can anyone prove the nuggets in questions came from the Russians at all? Did they call up and offer them to Trump directly? Someone on his team? Or did they leave them somewhere his team was guaranteed to find them? No direct contact likely means no conviction but in my mind the collusion is all but certain.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Paco500
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Sep 16, 2017, 07:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
He helped the Russians affect the election?
What I'm saying is that it's possible he courted an inappropriate or unethical relationship with the Russian government or government aligned business people in his position as a candidate for the US Presidency with the primary goal of enriching himself.

This was in response to your assertion that you found it unlikely he colluded with the Russian state because you don't believe he really wanted to be president.

How is it more unbelievable that he would seek a relationship with a country ruled by shady billionaires to enrich himself than it is that someone would go through a national campaign for the Presidency and end up in the White House when they actually didn't want to be there?

The motivation is the same in either scenario- to amass more wealth.
     
subego
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Sep 16, 2017, 08:59 AM
 
I said, in the post quoted at the top of the page,

"Everything else [all reasons for him to collude with the Russians other than the two explicitly mentioned] is still pretty much on the table, especially if there was money in it. [emphasis added]"

I think this us agreeing, no?
     
subego
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Sep 16, 2017, 10:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I don't think Trump did much for the Russians beyond taking their help and talking nicely about them until he started copping too much flak for that which was when he stopped talking nice about them.

Most of what they did was media manipulation via FB campaigns, strategic data leaks and whatnot, but if they slipped Trump a juicy nugget or two to use there is no way in hell he is the sort of guy to not use them. My suspicions is it will come down to logistics. Can anyone prove the nuggets in questions came from the Russians at all? Did they call up and offer them to Trump directly? Someone on his team? Or did they leave them somewhere his team was guaranteed to find them? No direct contact likely means no conviction but in my mind the collusion is all but certain.
I imagine this kind of thing has to climb up the ladder. If they were dealing with Trump directly, they wouldn't have wasted effort trying to bait Don Jr.
     
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Sep 16, 2017, 12:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I said, in the post quoted at the top of the page,

"Everything else [all reasons for him to collude with the Russians other than the two explicitly mentioned] is still pretty much on the table, especially if there was money in it. [emphasis added]"

I think this us agreeing, no?
The only solid evidence of money on/under the table and Russians is the Uranium One deal.
45/47
     
Paco500
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Sep 16, 2017, 03:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I said, in the post quoted at the top of the page,

"Everything else [all reasons for him to collude with the Russians other than the two explicitly mentioned] is still pretty much on the table, especially if there was money in it. [emphasis added]"

I think this us agreeing, no?
Agreement: 100%
Paco's reading comprehension: 30% (at best)
     
subego
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Sep 16, 2017, 09:46 PM
 
That's 15% better than me most of the time.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Sep 17, 2017, 07:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I imagine this kind of thing has to climb up the ladder. If they were dealing with Trump directly, they wouldn't have wasted effort trying to bait Don Jr.
Theres no sense in dealing with him directly when he has family and very close staff. Hell if they want him to win, they can just leak stuff direct to the press and no collusion is required, but some things carry more impact when timed with your own campaign I guess.
Anyway, all they need to do is leave a trail of teenage models discarded underwear leading from Trump Tower to a dark alleyway and make sure he finds the USB flash drive at the end of it. So to speak. No handoff or communication is required. The collusion still only needs to be one way. Question is whether he can be found guilty of anything if he doesn't know where it came from, which he shouldn't but clearly does. Some amateur hour espionage going on somewhere. Which is at least consistent with his style of presidenting I guess.
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subego
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Sep 17, 2017, 11:52 AM
 
As noted, the Russians don't need Trump to make shit public. They would need some other motivation.

Generally, that motive is blackmail. Making it "untraceable" means it's poor fodder for blackmail.

Look at the Don Jr. meeting. Hard to say the Russians weren't actually trying to make it look bad.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Sep 17, 2017, 08:14 PM
 
Thats a good point. They don't just want him to win, they need him in their pocket when he gets there.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Sep 17, 2017, 10:14 PM
 
Which according to the Steel Dossier, they already have it.

I'm not even counting the peepee.
     
OreoCookie
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Sep 17, 2017, 10:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Look at the Don Jr. meeting. Hard to say the Russians weren't actually trying to make it look bad.
This episode showed me that Russia isn't playing this game on an entirely different level, but as pedestrian as anyone else. We should keep that in mind. I never expected that they would leave such an obvious paper trail and be so explicit in emails. That being said, I think the most likely situation is that there isn't much more to find than what is obvious: Trump lied about business interests in Russia (he was planning a Trump Tower in Moscow before and during his campaign), which conveniently died after his inauguration. That alone may make him a target for black mail — at the very least it is an obvious conflict of interests, and from the looks of it, that won't be enough for people in the GOP to impeach Trump. The GOP hasn't even insisted on removing Kushner from the White House — who was also present at the aforementioned meeting. Just imagine if Clinton were President and one of her closest advisers had done the same, he'd be gone by now.
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subego
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Sep 18, 2017, 12:07 AM
 
Why does it matter if it gets attached to the Russians? It's not like we can double-secret Magnitsy them.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Sep 18, 2017, 04:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Why does it matter if it gets attached to the Russians? It's not like we can double-secret Magnitsy them.
Exactly. Its not about going after them, its about them being able to land him in trouble if he doesn't play ball.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Sep 19, 2017, 06:57 AM
 
Ooooh... Pauly M. got the tapp.

At this point, my lawyers' lawyers are gonna be hiring lawyers.
     
Chongo
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Sep 19, 2017, 09:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Ooooh... Pauly M. got the tapp.

At this point, my lawyers' lawyers are gonna be hiring lawyers.
The taps involved conversations that involved Trump, before and after the election and inauguration. So much for "there were no wiretaps."
45/47
     
subego
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Sep 19, 2017, 01:37 PM
 
Trumpp claimed Trumpp Tower got the tapp.

If only he had Tweeted "Obama put a wire tapp on my crooked campaign manager", then no one would have argued.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Sep 19, 2017, 01:52 PM
 
Oh I think I'd argue the implication that Obama was involved.
     
reader50
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Sep 19, 2017, 02:26 PM
 
I'm not buying an Obama angle. He had no iron in the fire for the election. Since the election, he's clearly been enjoying his retirement. Avoiding the public eye other than a few recent comments about Trump.

This is between Trump and ... maybe the Russians, if Mueller can prove something. Maybe the MSM, if Mueller comes up dry.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Sep 19, 2017, 02:58 PM
 
My point was that the way it is phrased implies Obama was involved. Hence, I would argue.
     
subego
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Sep 19, 2017, 04:01 PM
 
Unless he says or tweets something to the contrary, it can be claimed that was figurative. He's the executive. The buck stops with him.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Sep 19, 2017, 04:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Unless he says or tweets something to the contrary, it can be claimed that was figurative. He's the executive. The buck stops with him.
Sell me a bridge while you're at it
     
Chongo
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Sep 19, 2017, 04:25 PM
 
Mark Levin reported this, six months ago and Obama knew.
https://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/c...SpiedBeforeCNN
In March, conservative pundit Mark Levin documented that the Obama Administration had wiretapped the Trump campaign. On Monday, CNN reported that, indeed, the FBI had wiretapped former Trump campaign Chairman Paul Manafort, both before and after the election.

But, while CNN’s claim is based on unnamed “sources,” Levin made his case by citing quotes from eight separate news reports.
45/47
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Sep 21, 2017, 09:41 AM
 
Feels like things are coming to a head with Manafort.
     
subego
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Sep 21, 2017, 01:23 PM
 
Also, his dye job is beginning to bother me.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Sep 21, 2017, 02:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Also, his dye job is beginning to bother me.
Ha, it's been bothering me since last summer.
     
subego
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Sep 21, 2017, 02:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Ha, it's been bothering me since last summer.
It didn't bother me until I realized he's gotta be doing it for the side-piece.
     
subego
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Sep 21, 2017, 02:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Feels like things are coming to a head with Manafort.
Here's my lukewarm take.

Muller leaked the story about the tapp.

Now Muller is going to call people back in and ask if they want to "amend" previous statements.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Sep 21, 2017, 04:20 PM
 
Spicer is touchy right now.

Non-sequitur but could be related in retrospect.
     
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Sep 21, 2017, 09:57 PM
 
For those who enjoy good satire, follow this guy: https://twitter.com/sean_spicier
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nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Sep 27, 2017, 10:05 AM
 
Definite conspiracy material: Don jr reactivated SS protection after having deactivated it a few weeks ago. Why the gap?
     
andi*pandi
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Sep 27, 2017, 05:21 PM
 
So much for saving the taxpayer money. He went somewhere he didn't want someone following him around.
     
Chongo
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Oct 1, 2017, 10:02 PM
 
Assange says he has the proof and can disprove the Russia conspiracy theory, for a pardon.
45/47
     
subego
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Oct 1, 2017, 10:42 PM
 
What a ****ing moron.
     
reader50
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Oct 1, 2017, 11:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Assange says he has the proof and can disprove the Russia conspiracy theory, for a pardon.
Got a link? I'm not seeing that on the Guardian, Intercept, or Washington Post.
     
Chongo
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Oct 2, 2017, 12:38 AM
 
Interview with Rep Dana Rohrabacher.
45/47
     
OreoCookie
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Oct 2, 2017, 02:04 AM
 
You mean that Dana Rohrbacher whose name keeps coming up in the Russia investigation? I wouldn't believe everything you read, Chongo.

Even the whole premise stinks of BS: you can't prove a negative. Assange may only disprove a specific allegation where he was either involved in or had knowledge of. Conversely, Assange won't be able to say anything of substance about something that he hasn't been involved in. It won't be a deus ex machina that rids the Trump administration from the clout of collusion.

You should really go beyond news sources that cater to your preconceived notions. And yes, there are plenty out there, that push for proof (which is the right thing to do) and are not convinced that there is (publicly available) proof for collusion yet.
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Paco500
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Oct 2, 2017, 04:21 AM
 
Which will come first, Kim Dotcom's rock-solid proof or Assange's?
     
Chongo
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Oct 2, 2017, 08:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
You mean that Dana Rohrbacher whose name keeps coming up in the Russia investigation? I wouldn't believe everything you read, Chongo.

Even the whole premise stinks of BS: you can't prove a negative. Assange may only disprove a specific allegation where he was either involved in or had knowledge of. Conversely, Assange won't be able to say anything of substance about something that he hasn't been involved in. It won't be a deus ex machina that rids the Trump administration from the clout of collusion.

You should really go beyond news sources that cater to your preconceived notions. And yes, there are plenty out there, that push for proof (which is the right thing to do) and are not convinced that there is (publicly available) proof for collusion yet.
Would it made a difference if Rohrabacher was on “Moring Joe?” No. Does it change the fact that he went to London and spoke with Assange? No. The conspiracy theory is that WikiLeaks obtained the emails from Russia and colluded with Trump. Assange claims he can prove that Russia was not the source.

The story you should be worried about is Wassermann-Shultz’s IT tech who was arrested while trying flee to Pakistan. His wife cut a deal with the DOJ to come back from Pakistan. No wonder DWS was browbeating the DC police chief to get his laptop back.
45/47
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Oct 2, 2017, 09:38 AM
 
The guy the House GOP leader thinks is on the take from Russia. He's also certifiable.
     
OreoCookie
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Oct 2, 2017, 07:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Would it made a difference if Rohrabacher was on “Moring Joe?” No. Does it change the fact that he went to London and spoke with Assange? No. The conspiracy theory is that WikiLeaks obtained the emails from Russia and colluded with Trump. Assange claims he can prove that Russia was not the source.
I think you are still caught up in a story of yesteryear, the breadth of the Russia investigation has expanded significantly. We have since had numerous other revelations, including Trump Jr’s and Kushner’s meeting with someone who promised them dirt on the Clinton campaign that came from the Russian government as well as several people closely affiliated with either the Trump campaign (e. g. Paul Manafort and Felix Sader) or with the Trump administration (General Flynn).

Rohrabacher is known for his ties to Russia, and selectively taking someone’s word at face value without any proof does no one any good when what we need is evidence. Contrast that to, say, what happened to Manafort: apparently there was strong enough evidence to get a FISA and a search warrant on him, that is much more substantive.
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
The story you should be worried about is Wassermann-Shultz’s IT tech who was arrested while trying flee to Pakistan. His wife cut a deal with the DOJ to come back from Pakistan. No wonder DWS was browbeating the DC police chief to get his laptop back.
Please stop pushing conspiracy theories.
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Chongo
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Oct 2, 2017, 08:01 PM
 
You mean like the Clapper contrived collusion theory?
It has an official meme now.

It’s been over a year later there is still no evidence. The meeting with the Russian lawyer who was seeking relief for adoptions had no dirt, unlike the info obtained by the Clinton campaign from the Ukrainians.
45/47
     
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Oct 2, 2017, 08:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
It’s been over a year later there is still no evidence.
You keep telling yourself that. There has been enough evidence for a FISA court judge and a Grand Jury, and that's all that we know of.
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
The meeting with the Russian lawyer who was seeking relief for adoptions had no dirt, unlike the info obtained by the Clinton campaign from the Ukrainians.
Well, that's not how the meeting was advertised, and we have to take Donald Trump Jr.'s word for it that this is all that was discussed. Given his track record with the truth, I'm skeptical. Why aren't you? You seem ready to believe a lot of unsubstantiated stuff about the DNC.

Plus, the point here is that Trump's closest associates (including his son and his son-in-law) were willing to meet for dirt obtained by the Russian government. Even if you are inclined to believe them, the Trump campaign was willing to go to bed with the Russians for a leg up in the election. Trump Jr. and Kushner are still in the White House, that'd be unthinkable if Clinton had won the election and it'd be her closest advisers. Trey Gowdy would have chaired several special committees already (on some topics more than one ).

The GOP's inability to govern should worry any proper conservative whose aim isn't to “blow up the system”. They have been given the reigns, the rare trifecta, and they can do nothing with it. Health care reform failed and I am convinced that they won't be able to do any significant tax reform either. These are the result of a complete lack of vision: what does a conservative, “market-based approach” to health care (≠ health insurance) look like? They would have to wrestle with difficult questions such as do we want state-based solutions or encourage competition by allowing insurance companies to compete across state lines? What should a fair tax system look like? How should the tax burden be distributed? How can we do all this while keeping the budget balanced — or, preferably, start to pay pack some of the debt? Not to talk about the US's disastrous approach to foreign policy (which includes Trump undermining his own Secretary of State).

If you want the conservative movement to survive the Trump Presidency, you should focus not on conspiracy theories around Democrats, but aim to support people who are principled and are willing to put these principles into practice even if they are inconvenient in the short term. And a democracy needs more than one party to function properly.
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subego
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Oct 2, 2017, 08:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
The meeting with the Russian lawyer who was seeking relief for adoptions had no dirt
Explain this morality where Don Jr's intent is irrelevant.
     
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Oct 2, 2017, 09:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Explain this morality where Don Jr's intent is irrelevant.
Or try to explain to your wife that you just failed at cheating at her, and that the woman you met with in secret was in the end just interested in “being friends”. Do you think she'll be understanding or do you think she'll be hurt and furious?
( Last edited by OreoCookie; Oct 2, 2017 at 11:21 PM. Reason: Edited for snark.)
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subego
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Oct 2, 2017, 09:45 PM
 
There we go. I was struggling to come up with a good analogy.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Oct 2, 2017, 10:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
It’s been over a year later there is still no evidence.
This is the most disingenuous shit. The collusion angle has not been pursued for a year, Russian interference has, and that keeps growing. The investigation is not solely about collusion, and not solely if Trump did it.

Do you think Mueller is faking it to get a paycheck or something?
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Oct 2, 2017, 10:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
The meeting with the Russian lawyer who was seeking relief for adoptions had no dirt, unlike the info obtained by the Clinton campaign from the Ukrainians.
This story changed again since he testified in front of the Senate committee.

Donald Trump Jr. says he met with a Russian lawyer last year simply to learn about Hillary Clinton’s “fitness, character or qualifications,” insisting he did not collude with Russia to hurt her campaign against his father.
https://www.apnews.com/9e8921918cd54658a12a94326a1eb602

Nothing about adoptions there.
     
 
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