[The Godfather]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americ....ap/index.html

Please look at this matter in the scope of determining election fraud, not whether the PAN or PRD policies fit better with your ideology and your country's welfare.

A personal friend was telling me that the fraud allegation is absolutely baseless. The election results were in complete agreement with the exit polls. This is in contrast to the allegations of "voting fraud" reported by the AP, but without being more specific.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,202591,00.html

Juicy bits here:

http://www.yucatan.com.mx/noticia.asp?cx=9$0916100000$3328518&f=20060708

Originally Posted by TFA

Dijo tener pruebas de que les quitaron votos para favorecer al candidato de la derecha, pues señaló que por la resistencia de los funcionarios electorales se lograron en muy pocas casillas abrir los paquetes para contar las boletas, en los cuales aseguró que se comprobó que el candidato panista tenía votos de más, y que había menos sufragios para la coalición Por el Bien de Todos.

Obrador claims that in those population areas where he would have majority of votes, the ballots were not picked to be counted.

I'll be following this disagreement with attention, and I do hope that they hurry and show real evidences that will call for a recount, before it is too late, and all that will be left to do is resent the entering president Calderon.

Is more evidence for and against this fraud accusation known?

[The Godfather]

Blind person!

[Spliffdaddy]

Yet according to most criteria, Mexico's election Sunday was fair and professionally conducted. In its institutions and recourses for close elections, Mexico's young democracy has much to teach the United States.

First, in painful contrast to our own, Mexico's electoral system is thoroughly depoliticized. Poll workers are professionally trained and banned from even being active in any political party. In this country, most poll workers are party activists; parties run our primary system.

Mexico's election procedures, including equipment and ballot format, also are standardized. Citizens can use IDs to vote anywhere in the country. Compare that to the jungle of diverse machines, ballots and tainted registration lists that so compromised our contested presidential election in 2000.

Not only that, Mexico's voting system is centralized. The major candidates have access to copies of the ballots, but the Federal Electoral Institute has the authority and capability to conduct a quick recount. There are even legal avenues to contest a recount— complicated but thought-out procedures that Lopez Obrador is likely to exhaust before conceding.

The result, painstakingly arrived at after years of cooperation among Mexico's political parties, is an electoral system that's among the most transparent in the developing world. It's certainly a role model for the United States.

This doesn't mean that Mexico's system is 100 percent immune to fraud. It does mean that the system offers an admirable set of mechanisms by which fraud can be detected. Now it's up to Mexicans of all parties — and Lopez Obrador especially — to choose the rule of law over political desire. So far, they've shown remarkable maturity.


full text> http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...l/4029851.html

I've seen several sources claiming the Mexican election was among the fairest elections in the history of the world. or something. Anyhow, it won't stop people from claiming the winning guy "stole the election".

In my experience, recounts tend to mirror the "official" results - giving the losing side yet another example of alleged fraud. ie; "The recounts were manipulated!.

[mac128k-1984]

I think the issue with the oppistion is the recount only totaled up the tally sheets and did not open up the boxes and recount the individual votes. Add in that it was a close victory and the loser is upset.

It really has some similarities to our own 2000 election.

[hey!_Zeus]

MEXICO!!! Who cares?

[goMac]

Originally Posted by hey!_Zeus

MEXICO!!! Who cares?

This may come as a shock to you, but the MacNN forums still work in Mexico too.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

In my experience, recounts tend to mirror the "official" results - giving the losing side yet another example of alleged fraud. ie; "The recounts were manipulated!.

Actually, recounts are where a lot of results get manipulated.

Once the recounting begins, it's a matter of recounting until you get the results you want.

This is why recounts have to have specific rules, have those rules enforced, and then have the results audited.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by goMac

This may come as a shock to you, but the MacNN forums still work in Mexico too.

Barely, there's nothing left but old women and children many places in Mexico.

[TheWOAT]

Originally Posted by PacHead

Barely, there's nothing left but old women and children many places in Mexico.

Well, there are two middle aged males fighting for the presidency. Obrador on the day of the election proclaimed victory (an irreversible victory to be precise) by more than 500,000 votes, he said this while the votes were still being counted in the preliminary count phase. He then claimed that there were millions of votes missing from the results, but the PREP (preliminary results) does not include tally sheets that are questionable. So they have now included all of the tally sheets and he still lost.

His people still claim votes werent counted, but that would be easy to find out since each precinct is assigned a specific amount of votes, and there are a precise number of precincts. AKAIK, around 140,000 precincts, 40,000,000 votes, that comes out to an average of 286 votes per precinct. It would take hundreds of precincts being tampered with (or not counted) to affect an election. Obrador is just mad that he let this election slip through his fingers. Last year he was heavily favored but lost his poll lead due to the debates, his "Great" ideas, and a rehashing of his aides taking bribes on video tape in 2003.

I am a little dissapointed though, since this election disproves my theory that the man with the best mustache usually wins Mexican elections.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by hey!_Zeus

MEXICO!!! Who cares?

About the same amount of people who care about Canada.

Hi bones.

[Doofy]

Now, I'm only vaguely aware that there's been a presidential election in Mexico (basically off Wiki's front page news box). I have absolutely no idea who the candidates were and no idea what they stand for. But let's take a wild guess at it...

...it's the libs who're whining.

[Kerrigan]

:gasp:

[Kevin]

Yet another trend Gore set up.

This Gore guy just may be onto something....

[Kerrigan]

They're destroying peoples' faith in democracy.

I personally know leftists who get so caught up in this stuff that it drives them to the brink of insanity. I'm dead serious about that.

This one old friend of mine started having major depression after 2004 elections. Whenever some new bill would be passed by Republicans, he would have anxiety attacks and suicidal thoughts. It's gotten so bad that he actually said he tried to kill himself over some change in interest rates.

Obviously he's seeing a counsellor, but his neurotic, self-obsessed approach to politics, where even his own self-worth is at stake, has become a hallmark of liberalism.

And this bizarre disconnect all started after the close 2000 election, when liberals went into denial and created a fantasy world for themselves.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

I personally know leftists who get so caught up in this stuff that it drives them to the brink of insanity. I'm dead serious about that.

I've just watched a BBC2 programme called "Lefties", about some (you guessed it) lefties living in a particular road in London in the 70's.
One of them recalls that they were so wrapped up in politics that her friend actually did kill herself (for, I assume, the same reasons that your friend went nutso).

I really can't understand that at all. I've never, ever met a conservative who shows the same traits. Not even close.

None of this does anything to alter my opinion that leftism is a mental illness.

[TheWOAT]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

I personally know leftists who get so caught up in this stuff that it drives them to the brink of insanity. I'm dead serious about that.
.

I know quite a few "Che Guevara" fans who consider themselves revolutionaries, yet are quite succesful at what they do and from the outside seem to be capitalists. They dream of revolution yet hope they get a huge pay raise and a Holiday bonus. Its like they have split personalities. Fortunately in Mexico, there are legal avenues for a challenged vote, and Obrador said he would bring forth evidence, but I think he is jsut setting himself up for 2012.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by Doofy

I've just watched a BBC2 programme called "Lefties", about some (you guessed it) lefties living in a particular road in London in the 70's.
One of them recalls that they were so wrapped up in politics that her friend actually did kill herself (for, I assume, the same reasons that your friend went nutso).

I really can't understand that at all. I've never, ever met a conservative who shows the same traits. Not even close.

None of this does anything to alter my opinion that leftism is a mental illness.

So roughly 1 in 2 people is mentally ill?

[Kerrigan]

It's possible. Something like 1/2 the world's population lives under the poverty line.

Also 3/4 of people in the world are losers.

So it's quite possible that 1/2 of Americans have a slight mental illness known as Leftism.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Dakar

So roughly 1 in 2 people is mentally ill?

I wouldn't go that far. There's obviously a transition demographic lying somewhere between "stupid" and "mental". But a lot of the über-lefties (and there's a lot here in Blighty) do show signs of mental illness. Overly emotional and lacking in logic, absolutely no cohesion in thought processes, etc..
Probably only applies to < 5% of the US population (basically the people who actually bother to go on protest marches).

But then again, I may be wrong. Microsoft's market share suggests that at least 90% of the World's population has some form of retardation.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by Doofy

I wouldn't go that far. There's obviously a transition demographic lying somewhere between "stupid" and "mental". But a lot of the über-lefties (and there's a lot here in Blighty) do show signs of mental illness. Overly emotional and lacking in logic, absolutely no cohesion in thought processes, etc..
Probably only applies to < 5% of the US population (basically the people who actually bother to go on protest marches).

See you added über. And of course the same goes for the right... the religious wackjobs that become hypocrites to very tenets they claim to uphold.

"Overly emotional and lacking in logic, absolutely no cohesion in thought processes, etc.." Yeah, that describes those types too.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Dakar

See you added über.

Only for comparative purposes due to location (a centrist here would class as a pinko commie over there).

[porieux]

...

[TheWOAT]

Originally Posted by porieux

Free elections are a myth to control the masses.

Free elections AND Sports, Religion, Politics, Opiates, Alcohol, sex, TV, internet, hookers, porn, employment, taxes, spouses, and UFO's.

[kvm_mkdb]

The over 100,000 Mexicans who protested last Sunday seemed to care. They weren't 'leftists' or 'liberals' - they were people who voted for a candidate and there are serious allegations they've been cheated once again (1988 anyone?).

Pay attention to which sources exactly said what: the only ones claiming the elections were fair are severely biased. A recount of the few dubios ballot boxes showed a very consistent pattern of 'errors' and gave a clear lead to AMLO. They are not a valid statistical sample to determine who won the elections, but they do show something is wrong. There is photographic, documentary and filmed evidence which has been presented to the authorities. (links below, the video is really funny)

Marcos has also spoken of a huge fraud - and what he certainly does not need is to be considered a liar.

The Supreme Court could still refuse a recount and proclaim Bush-friendly oilman Calderon president. Do you think that whould be a good idea?

http://media.amlo.org.mx/video_IFE.wmv
http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2006/07/10/005n1pol.php
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...,3265742.story

[Kerrigan]

"MEXICO CITY, July 7 (Reuters) - There was no major fraud or irregularity in Mexico's presidential election, European Union observers said on Friday, despite a court challenge to the result by the leftist who came in second."

Full Reuters article

[TheWOAT]

Originally Posted by kvm_mkdb

The over 100,000 Mexicans who protested last Sunday seemed to care. They weren't 'leftists' or 'liberals' - they were people who voted for a candidate and there are serious allegations they've been cheated once again (1988 anyone?).

Pay attention to which sources exactly said what: the only ones claiming the elections were fair are severely biased. A recount of the few dubios ballot boxes showed a very consistent pattern of 'errors' and gave a clear lead to AMLO. They are not a valid statistical sample to determine who won the elections, but they do show something is wrong. There is photographic, documentary and filmed evidence which has been presented to the authorities. (links below, the video is really funny)

Marcos has also spoken of a huge fraud - and what he certainly does not need is to be considered a liar.

The Supreme Court could still refuse a recount and proclaim Bush-friendly oilman Calderon president. Do you think that whould be a good idea?

http://media.amlo.org.mx/video_IFE.wmv
http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2006/07/10/005n1pol.php
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...,3265742.story

Its funny how things are done down there. I was in Mexico in 2005 for a Gubernotorial (sp) election and noticed that every precinct I went to (5) was video taped by the PRD volunteers. The people who didnt stay a certain distance from the precincts were in yellow, and were PRD. The people who claimed fruad after the election (for Governor of Nayarit) were the PRD. The people who had no evidence of such, were in fact, the PRD.Im skeptical of their claims until they provide real evidence. Also AMLO's claim of irreversible victory (of 500,000 votes) before even the preliminary votes were completed seemed irresponsible to me, but to many in Mexico, they werent surprised.

I also think its funny that in 1988 the PRI caused the fraud, and in 2006, the party of ex-Priistas are the ones claiming fraud. I just noticed where you are from, and since your tax dollars went to AMLO's campaign, I can see why you are so concerned. BTW, Mexico has its petoleum industry nationalized and Calderon promised that it would remain that way. SO how is he a Bush Oil man type? Since your from Venezuela, how does it feel that your tax dollars went to AMLO's campaign?

[Kerrigan]

Mr KVM, would you like to respond to the EU election monitors' findings?

[kobi]

Glad to see that presidential elections get rigged in other countries.
I was starting to think the U.S. was the only one.
Pres. Fox must have learned something from Rove and Georgie.
I wonder how much their kickback was for the information??

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by kobi

Glad to see that presidential elections get rigged in other countries.
I was starting to think the U.S. was the only one.
Pres. Fox must have learned something from Rove and Georgie.
I wonder how much their kickback was for the information??

Naw Mexico, like the US is full of crack smoking/tin foil hat wearing folks like yourself.

[TheWOAT]

Originally Posted by kvm_mkdb

There is photographic, documentary and filmed evidence which has been presented to the authorities. (links below, the video is really funny)


http://media.amlo.org.mx/video_IFE.wmv

that video is REALLY REALLY funny because it shows hardly anything, and proves nothing. BTW, catch the news today? The precinct from Queretaro, shown in the video, have results that were signed off by a PRD official who was present for the count, and that precinct's results are NOT being contested by the PRD. Also in the video, we see some weird methods to count ballots, and most often the ballots are counted once, but in the presence of 5-10 people.

There were around 40 million votes casted at 140,000 precincts, or about 285 votes per precinct on average. There were also around 5-10 people assigned to each precinct, or about 1.2 million Mexicans doing the leg work for the election. If there were wide spread fraud like AMLO says, it would require a huge amount of people to adjust/remove/add votes at each precinct. There are limits to how many votes you can add, since 1000 votes at a precinct only assigned 300 votes probably would be flagged as irregular. You would need thousands of precincts affected/adjusted/tampered with involving ... well, alot of people. Of course, the center command for the election results is the easiest way to commit fraud, but I dont believe AMLO has provided evidence of it. Common sense says AMLO lost and is posturing for 2012.

[kvm_mkdb]

Originally Posted by TheWOAT

Its funny how things are done down there. I was in Mexico in 2005 for a Gubernotorial (sp) election...[/B]

I know nothing about that episode. You must have had a lot of fun besides election day...

Originally Posted by TheWOAT

I also think its funny that in 1988 the PRI caused the fraud, and in 2006, the party of ex-Priistas are the ones claiming fraud. I just noticed where you are from, and since your tax dollars went to AMLO's campaign, I can see why you are so concerned. BTW, Mexico has its petoleum industry nationalized and Calderon promised that it would remain that way. SO how is he a Bush Oil man type? Since your from Venezuela, how does it feel that your tax dollars went to AMLO's campaign?

You should get your facts straight. In 1988 the PRI stole the elections from the PRD. And Venezuela is not endorsing any candidate, unlike the US. Venezuela help indigenous groups in Mexico which have nothing to do with the PRD - AMLO is not Morales: the Economist endorsed him! I haven't looked at it, but I'm pretty sure that USAID/NED and the various US-taxpayer-funded groups have supported BOTH the PAN and the PRI, since they're bipartisan...  The Mexican oil fields are to remain Mexicans because the constitution says so - nevertheless Fox has been trying hard to relinquish control of them to certain corporations: Calderon is an ex-oil manager who has often shown his sympathy for Bush and promises to keep "the course".
That's where your tax dollars went to

[Kerrigan]

For the third time I'll give kvm_mkdb a chance to address the fact that the European Union election monitors found no fraud or irregularities. What do you have to say to that?

And while we're at it, would you explain why you find it appropriate to have a sig in which there is a blatantly racist depiction of white people as pigs?

(It's no surprise that the two biggest lefties here have racist, violent images complete with weaponry in their signatures)

[TheWOAT]

Originally Posted by kvm_mkdb

I know nothing about that episode. You must have had a lot of fun besides election day...
You should get your facts straight. In 1988 the PRI stole the elections from the PRD.

I never mentioned the PRD in 1988, all I said was the that PRI were theives in 1988, and in 2006 the party of ex-PRIistas are claiming to be the victims. And I did have fun in 2005, laughing at how people act on election day, especially those in yellow shirts.

[kvm_mkdb]

Originally Posted by TheWOAT

:There were around 40 million votes casted at 140,000 precincts, or about 285 votes per precinct on average.

There are 130,500 ballot boxes get your fact straight. And it is the same PRD of 1988 who is claiming to be victim of electoral fraud, once again. Your reference to it being the party of the ex-priistas gets lost on me but I'm eager to be enlightened .

What were you doing there in 2005?

[TheWOAT]

Originally Posted by kvm_mkdb

There are 130,500 ballot boxes get your fact straight. And it is the same PRD of 1988 who is claiming to be victim of electoral fraud, once again. Your reference to it being the party of the ex-priistas gets lost on me but I'm eager to be enlightened .

What were you doing there in 2005?

I was giving rough estimates to show the average votes per casilla, just to show the scale of what is needed to cause fraud on a large scale (large # of votes), if I left out terms like "about", "around" or "estimate", I apologize, I was just too lazy to look up the actual numbers.

PRD in 1988 = PRD in 2006, I realize that, but it is said in Mexico that those politicians who fell out of favor with the PRI just jumped ship to the PRD. In fact the PAN and PRD are full of ex-PRIistas, which is scary, but more so for the PRD. So for some PRDistas to claim the PAN used "PRI tactics of fraud", well, is not giving the PRI enough credit for their horrendous record, but I imagine the other side wouldbe saying the same thing if in that position.

As for me, I was visiting my fiance in 2005. Her sister's Padrino won the election for Governor. He is a PRI candidate, and her parents are PRIistas (she is not, thank god). I dont care for the PRI myself given the history of corruption (the mid-90s alone are enough to shame the PRI for decades). After the polls closed I helped out with data entry, gathering data at different casillas to determine a winner quicker than the official method. I felt awkward helping them out, but it wasnt like I could screw something up. The main problem I had with PRD was not its candidates, but the supporters, who often acted immaturely and couldnt seem to obey simple rules.

For this election, my fiance worked(Volunteered) at a casilla to execute the election process along with 10 others (about 10 she said). Things went smoothly and Obrador won that casilla easily. She mentioned that the votes are counted once (and once only ), the signed off on a tally sheet. The video from ALMO shows some questionable counting methods, yet given the state of the Mexican public education system, its to be expected at many casillas around the country.

AMLO deserves his day in court, but Im skepticial. I think this is all posturing for 2012