[Jim Paradise]

I just realized what I've liked about the GUI of OS X for so long and why I'm becoming frustrating with the direction that it's taking.

From the PB to 10.1, Apple was playing around with giving the OS a 3D interface. It seemed to be, to me, a very interesting and very useful change to the Mac UI. In 10.2 they refined it quite elegantly- smoothed edges, made images sharper/clearer, but they kept it looking 3D.

Now here's *the* thing that I've liked about it the UI (most notably of 10.2):
The way buttons sort of stuck out made it look as though you could "push" down on them. And now Apple's almost reversing this and not just flattening buttons, widgets, etc., no, it's as though these elements of the UI are becoming inverted. I guess maybe it's a small rant or tangent or thought... but looking at some of the screenshots floating around right now of things like the new buttons in QT, the sunken expand/minimize/close being used more, and other little things like that, the OS doesn't seem so practically 3D anymore. A sunken widget doesn't stand out- it doesn't look as though you are going to be pushing on something. (I hope this makes sense. To me this seems quite impractical.) The actual feel that you are interacting with a 3D OS seems to be being lost. It's not just with 10.3 that I've disliked the sunken widgets. I find them quite out of place on brushed metal apps at the moment. The fact that they don't stick out (yes, I know this will sound silly) makes them less visible/accessible.

Bah... I don't want to start a flamewar over the UI. I know there are those that prefer the brushed metal look. It just struck me what it's been about the Aqua look and feel that, to me, has made it great to use, and I'm disappointed in the direction Apple is taking.

(And yes, I'm planning on submitting these thoughts to the feedback at Apple, and if this is a redundant thread, my apologies.)

[businezguy]

I wonder if these changes have anything to do with improving the performance of the operating system. Just a thought.

[cpac]

Originally posted by businezguy:
I wonder if these changes have anything to do with improving the performance of the operating system. Just a thought.

I'm sure they have nothing to do with it.

the graphic of a button is the same from the OS's point of view regardless of the specific colors/shading it adopts to appear flatter or more 3D.

As for the original poster's comments - I'm not sure OS X was ever particuarly "3D" and I think little functionality if any is lost by the current trend towards a "flatter" look.

THE PROBLEM, however, is with trying to keep applications that use some sort of interface hack up-to-date with the ever changing styles. Apple should just pick one of the looks and stick with it for more than 6 months or so...

[Guy Incognito 2]

Why it's grumpy ol' Jim Paradise yappin' away! Hurray!

[Jim Paradise]

Originally posted by cpac:
I'm sure they have nothing to do with it.

the graphic of a button is the same from the OS's point of view regardless of the specific colors/shading it adopts to appear flatter or more 3D.

As for the original poster's comments - I'm not sure OS X was ever particuarly "3D" and I think little functionality if any is lost by the current trend towards a "flatter" look.

THE PROBLEM, however, is with trying to keep applications that use some sort of interface hack up-to-date with the ever changing styles. Apple should just pick one of the looks and stick with it for more than 6 months or so...

Well, I don't mean a complete 3D interface... but the buttons that stand out/shadows, etc., help give it that feeling. I don't think it will really affect anyone's workflow, but you know us Mac users... UI= the most important part of the OS to us. For me, I just find these changes to be rather negative. Well, not negative... just that they could be doing better than where they're going.

[Jim Paradise]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito 2:
Why it's grumpy ol' Jim Paradise yappin' away! Hurray!

?

I suppose I could start yet another thread on how much I dislike tabs... those are always great.

[foobars]

I can see your point, but the truth is 10.3 is cleaner and more readable than ever before, so I could care less about weather or not they stick out.

[Guy Incognito 2]

Originally posted by Jim Paradise:
?

I suppose I could start yet another thread on how much I dislike tabs... those are always great.

Take your flat-interface hate speech elsewhere.

[Jim Paradise]

Originally posted by foobars:
I can see your point, but the truth is 10.3 is cleaner and more readable than ever before, so I could care less about weather or not they stick out.

Yeah, it could be that this is one of those things you just have to use to understand its goodness. I don't have a copy of 10.3, so I'm just going based on looks at the moment.

[Guy Incognito 2]

Originally posted by Jim Paradise:
Yeah, it could be that this is one of those things you just have to use to understand its goodness. I don't have a copy of 10.3, so I'm just going based on looks at the moment.

So why did you start this thread?

[thePurpleGiant]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito 2:
So why did you start this thread?

What's your problem mate?

Jim: I agree. No big deal to me personally, I could use a Mac no matter what the buttons looked like. But that's not the point. I agree that buttons should look 'clickable' and that the older stye buttons did look more like you could interact with them.

On the other hand, the new ones do make the whole OS quite smooth visually.

[Jim Paradise]

Originally posted by thePurpleGiant:
What's your problem mate?

Jim: I agree. No big deal to me personally, I could use a Mac no matter what the buttons looked like. But that's not the point. I agree that buttons should look 'clickable' and that the older stye buttons did look more like you could interact with them.

On the other hand, the new ones do make the whole OS quite smooth visually.

Yeah, I'm not going to stop using OS X if they keep the buttons as they are at the moment in 10.3. Maybe they can find a balance between making them look like you can interact with them and a smoother interface. Well, here's to hoping...!

[bgmccollum]

maybe a poll with a panther screenshot next to a jaguar screenshot. with the same applications running. displaying the new menus etc...

my votes for panther.

10.0 - 10.2 was missing so many GUI refinements, and 10.3 is on its way to being the nicest GUI apple has producted. platinum still being one of my favorites.

i think its all these tiny GUI improvements, but i feel as if panther is more "solid" that jaguar. a friend of mine commented on the very same thing. when he was using 9, things felt solid, cohesive. in jaguar, it never felt so cohesive. with panther, that feeling of cohesivness is coming back.

[Jim Paradise]

Originally posted by bgmccollum:
maybe a poll with a panther screenshot next to a jaguar screenshot. with the same applications running. displaying the new menus etc...

my votes for panther.

10.0 - 10.2 was missing so many GUI refinements, and 10.3 is on its way to being the nicest GUI apple has producted. platinum still being one of my favorites.

i think its all these tiny GUI improvements, but i feel as if panther is more "solid" that jaguar. a friend of mine commented on the very same thing. when he was using 9, things felt solid, cohesive. in jaguar, it never felt so cohesive. with panther, that feeling of cohesivness is coming back.

There are certain elements to the Panther GUI that I think look quite good, and it seems as though everyone who's been using it does get this solid feel from it (though I think that might be in part due to the OS 9-like speeds). Certain buttons amd widgets that are being flattened make them look less interactable to me... Maybe it's different when you are using them, but in screenshots they seem like they are already being pressed instead of waiting to be pressed.

*edit*
It would be good it someone were to do a thread with some screenshot comparisons.

[BuonRotto]

[whoops, I should read through]

[brachiator]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito 2:
Why it's grumpy ol' Jim Paradise yappin' away! Hurray!

Another GI tract. GI (1 or 2) is always good for a laugh. Maybe I'm just tired, but the phrasing made me laugh out loud.

[strokemouth]

I personally like the direction the GUI is taking. Previous versions of Aqua almost look like the widgets are floating on the window. The new sunken ones make them look like they are actually part of the window. Much more cohesive in my eyes.

And I have no problems with brushed metal.

[Jim Paradise]

Originally posted by strokemouth:

And I have no problems with brushed metal.

Lucky you.

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito 2:
Take your flat-interface hate speech elsewhere.

He started this thread, dipshit. Where would you suggest he take it?

[Spheric Harlot]

Um.

The bulbous Aqua look made sense at the time, because the hardware then was bulbous and pinstriped.

Current hardware is flat, sleek, smooth, and metal or straight white.

Just pointing it out.

-s*

[barbarian]

Having played with 10.3 I have to say I love the new interface. Much more usable and refined than the current one (that said I hate the metal finder window).

<b>re: THE PROBLEM, however, is with trying to keep applications that use some sort of interface hack up-to-date with the ever changing styles. Apple should just pick one of the looks and stick with it for more th</b>

This is a perfect arguement for flexible themes.

[DVD Plaza]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
He started this thread, dipshit. Where would you suggest he take it?

ROTFL!!!

[stew]

I like flat. I found the flatter buttons in 10.2 a big improvement over 10.1 and 10.0. In fact, I even use this theme:

[michaelb]

It's possible Apple is consciously trying to "de-lick" the candy coating in Mac OS X. Getting a bit more refined, mature.

This could be if they are going after the Enterprise market more now that have the hardware turning heads, and the *nix smarts to match.

Really, though, I think it's just like this year's OS fashion. Change for the sake of change. Keeping the curve moving so it doesn't feel stale.

[Guy Incognito 2]

Cipher likes little boys.

[SMacTech]

Where is the love man? Gees, Guy settle down. It is so easy to click a link somewhere and read something that interests you, isn't it?

[Moose]

Originally posted by bgmccollum:
maybe a poll with a panther screenshot next to a jaguar screenshot. with the same applications running. displaying the new menus etc...

Yeah. If there's anything that'll make Apple sit up and take notice, it'd be a MacNN Forums poll.

[daydreamer]

I am one of those that like Jaguar theme more than the new Panther Theme, especially the widgets , don't like em .

[snerdini]

Originally posted by strokemouth:
I personally like the direction the GUI is taking. Previous versions of Aqua almost look like the widgets are floating on the window. The new sunken ones make them look like they are actually part of the window. Much more cohesive in my eyes.

And I have no problems with brushed metal.

Agree 100%.

[Xeo]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
comments toward Guy Incognito 2

Originally posted by Guy Incognito 2:
Comments toward Cipher13

Boys, boys, settle down. Try not to start this into a flame war. One of you be the bigger person and back off.

Guy, just because you don't agree doesn't mean they can't discuss it.

[Cipher13]

Xeo, I think it would be prudent to edit Guys post. It's rather inappropriate for public consumption, especially considering the anti-homosexual connotations. He's capable of no better, everybody understands that. No point leaving such garbage around to reinforce that fact.

[DVD Plaza]

Originally posted by stew:
In fact, I even use this theme:

"It's beginng to look a lot, like, Windows".....

[stew]

Originally posted by DVD Plaza:
"It's beginng to look a lot, like, Windows".....

Just because it was invented by Microsoft doesn't make it a bad theme.

[Simon]

Originally posted by stew:
Just because it was invented by Microsoft doesn't make it a bad theme.

Nope. The fact that it's fugly makes it a bad theme. There's simply an amazing coincidence betweent things being fugly and things coming from MS...

[stew]

Originally posted by Simon:
Nope. The fact that it's fugly makes it a bad theme.

Fuglyness is a matter of taste. I like it, because it's clean, simple, out of my way.

Too much eye candy is bad for your teeth

[RooneyX]

Flatter is more professional and sleaker. There is no performance enhancement or improvement either way as people using themes will attest to (unless they suffer from placebo effects).

[iFix Rene]

I like the pale blue look of new (push)buttons
and they are still 3d, instead of raised above
they are sunken within.

the rest of the gui of panther IS a nightmare
it seems the original designer died and they
had to find some one new

titlebars are gray when active and striped
when inactive... what the F%%%%k?!?!?

there are long thin vertical buttons with
text, if you want to read it you have to strain
your neck.

etc.

[snerdini]

Originally posted by iFix Rene:
I like the pale blue look of new (push)buttons
and they are still 3d, instead of raised above
they are sunken within.

the rest of the gui of panther IS a nightmare
it seems the original designer died and they
had to find some one new

titlebars are gray when active and striped
when inactive... what the F%%%%k?!?!?

there are long thin vertical buttons with
text, if you want to read it you have to strain
your neck.

etc.

I wouldn't totally judge the GUI in Panther until it is actually released. However, I like the fact that they are heading in a "stripeless" direction - hope it continues

[driven]

Hey ... you can't complain about Apple changing it's UI too often. If anything they stick with a general theme for the longest. Windows however ... changes drastically at least once per release. It's agravating from a support & training perspective.

[Arkham_c]

Some of the new UI elements are really nice (I like the new tab replacement), but I really dislike the "flat" buttons in the new iTunes. They look like something I could make (and that's not a complement -- I'm an engineer, not a UI designer). Apple should keep some sense of depth in its UI elements. They can refine it all they like, but iTunes' play buttons look lame.

[- - e r i k - -]

Having used Panther longer than most of you by now, I must say I really prefer the new Panther-GUI to the old Jaguar style. It almost looks dated in comparison.

The titlebars are much more defined now in a good way. The lack of stripes sets the window apart from background windows which are striped all over. You have to use it to appreciate it. Much better than just slightly make the titlebar transparent (think about it, it makes no sense, why would just the titlebar get transparent?)

[Michel Fortin]

Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
(think about it, it makes no sense, why would just the titlebar get transparent?)

Not that I dislike it, but does it makes more sense: why would the title bar get striped when in background?

[iFix Rene]

yeh that IS illogical

that suddenly when inactive there are stripes


anyway as with so many things its a matter
of taste i guess

wow Erik, longer then anyone else...
trying to impress us or what?

so since when?

[Simon]

Originally posted by stew:
Fuglyness is a matter of taste.

Yep. True. But I guess that would be valid for DVDPlaza to say too, wouldn't it?

Too much eye candy is bad for your teeth

That's why I'm all for brushed metal.

<ducks and heads for cover>

[ckohler]

Originally posted by Michel Fortin:
Not that I dislike it, but does it makes more sense: why would the title bar get striped when in background?

Yes it does. The idea here is that only windows that have focus appear to have distinguishable titlebars. A window in the background continues to have a titlebar but it isn't distinguished since it contains the same pinstripe pattern as the rest of the window.

Oftentimes, I considered windows with semi-transparent titlebars to be *more* noticeable than opaque ones that share the same exact pattern as the rest of the window like they do in Jaguar.

[Michel Fortin]

You have a point. Transparency looks great so we notice transparent title bars more...

I will deside if I like it when I use it for real. But for now from the screen shots I find it a bit strange.

[OAW]

I really don't understand why people complain so much about the stripes in Jaguar. I find them to be really subtle, and they have the effect of "toning down" the white color. I fear that if they aren't there in Panther, the windows will end up being too bright. I hope that isn't the case.

OAW

[ibobunot]

Your certainly pushing Guy Incognitos buttons 3D or not.

[iFix Rene]

thing about these kind of discussions is
that you can talk about it forever

coz its all a matter of taste

[sushiism]

Originally posted by Jim Paradise:

(And yes, I'm planning on submitting these thoughts to the feedback at Apple, and if this is a redundant thread, my apologies.)

where do you do this? I need to file how i cannot work with a brushed metal finder to them