[t_hah]

I have been gone last week and am trying to play cathc up here. It seesm like WWDC was really exciting. I actually saw Panther on my friends computer and it was so much faster that 10.2.6. At least it felt like to me. The GUI elements were definitely responsive, test scrolling and such seemed much better as well. Safari was screaming on his computer.

So here is my question...what causes this? I kind of missed the meat of the Panther discussion, so if you could someone explain what makes this new operating system so much more responsive than Jaguar?

Thanks,

t

[stew]

...must...resist....telling....old...debug..code.. joke...

[tikki]

Originally posted by stew:
...must...resist....telling....old...debug..code.. joke...

I won't. They removed the Debug Code.

[pat++]

Originally posted by tikki:
I won't. They removed the Debug Code.

Actually, to be precise, They removed the Debug� Code�

[Chuckit]

Originally posted by pat++:
Actually, to be precise, They removed the Debug� Code�

And they rewrote the whole OS in Cocoa!

[wataru]

It's not faster. It's just that they added Reality Distortion Field projection capabilities to Panther so that it feels faster.

[Kristoff]

Originally posted by Chuckit:
And they rewrote the whole OS in Cocoa!

BAHAHAHAHAHA! heheh! LOL

[osxisfun]

you ever rewrite a book report in school?

bet the second version was better huh?

[OwlBoy]

Originally posted by osxisfun:
you ever rewrite a book report in school?

bet the second version was better huh?

Yeah, thats a good summary.

They re-did things, took out things, put in things. All learning from previous mistakes, and successes.

-Owl

[gdiddy]

Originally posted by OwlBoy:
Yeah, thats a good summary.

They re-did things, took out things, put in things. All learning from previous mistakes, and successes.

-Owl

...and guess what? In three months after the final release everyone will complain about how slow it is and some will swear OS8 was faster on their 8500

[foobars]

Some of it is just artificial acceleration, for example sheets are faster now because they are programmed to move faster, not because Quartz sped up.

Another reason is that most people are doing fresh installs of Panther, and fresh systems are always faster than systems that have been run for a couple of weeks.

That said, it IS a lot faster for lower-end machines especially, so I'd say it was mainly just some more optimizion on Apples part.

[Busemann]

Originally posted by foobars:
Some of it is just artificial acceleration, for example sheets are faster now because they are programmed to move faster, not because Quartz sped up.

Another reason is that most people are doing fresh installs of Panther, and fresh systems are always faster than systems that have been run for a couple of weeks.

That said, it IS a lot faster for lower-end machines especially, so I'd say it was mainly just some more optimizion on Apples part.

It really doesn't feel that much faster on my 1.25MDD, for example the finder resizes at about 3 FPS now (because of brushed metal i presume)

[nredman]

Originally posted by gdiddy:
...and guess what? In three months after the final release everyone will complain about how slow it is and some will swear OS8 was faster on their 8500

true

[DBvader]

I dont see much of a speed increase in panther on my Dual 867. it feels the same. additionally, things like window resizing are a slow as ever. its things like this that piss me off about the mac os. its so much better in so many different areas, but the simple things its years behind on...

or maybe my Dual 867 isnt fast enough of a mac...

[OwlBoy]

Hmm, is the resizing because Apple dont want a ton of tearing when the window is resized fast? It always does that on XP, and it resizes fast... Maybe apple is trying to make it too smooth in this respect.

-Owl

[osxisfun]

maybe you should do a clean install.

[Gul Banana]

For me, in Panther, resizing is perfectly smooth and fast in everything, except brushed metal apps. i.e. the Finder...
(single 1GHz G4)

[bgmccollum]

speaking of resizing...is there a way (app, plist) that could remove live resizing ala itunes 4 on non QE machines? i happen to like the outline resizing of the pre-X era.

and speed...yes, i can attest that it is a much faster. the main reason that i was unable to use X as my daily OS was because of the speed and some interface quirks. on my blue g3 300 its is great. i have been using it since wednesday and i am consistently impressed with the speed improvements. people with newer machines will not notice these speed increases due to their marginal improvements on faster machines.

good job apple. cant wait to see the final version.

[RooneyX]

I just want to add one more thing to this thread. They removed the Debug Code!



hahaha

[phillryu]

Well, I noticed a few things. Not only have they removed the debug code, but they've sped up sheets, sped up mouse movement, sped up keyboard repeat, and a whole bunch of sneaky tricks to make the OS seem faster. Personally, I also noticed that booting up seems faster, but logging in takes a longer time for me. Apple hasn't made much faster, they've just arranged things to feel faster. It's all psychology folks.

[RooneyX]

Originally posted by phillryu:
Well, I noticed a few things. Not only have they removed the debug code, but they've sped up sheets, sped up mouse movement, sped up keyboard repeat, and a whole bunch of sneaky tricks to make the OS seem faster. Personally, I also noticed that booting up seems faster, but logging in takes a longer time for me. Apple hasn't made much faster, they've just arranged things to feel faster. It's all psychology folks.

I would like to see the the use of QE for virtual desktops like they've done for fast user switching. Also, different transitions. The cube is a cool effect at first but silly later. I'd like film style cross dissolves, slides and wipes.

[squish]

My early OpenGL apps that I wrote actually had "debug code" in them.

A function would run, and based on these results, it would return either a 0 or a 1.

One meaning pass, zero meaning fail.

If it failed, then the app would quit with the appropriate dialog.

Now, it was more code and more operations to cycle through, especially if i was stupid and andded tons of debug code. But naturally, when i finished a project and KNEW it worked (hence i didn't need debug code to test wehre it failed) i removed the debug code.

[RevEvs]

Originally posted by squish:
My early OpenGL apps that I wrote actually had "debug code" in them.

A function would run, and based on these results, it would return either a 0 or a 1.

One meaning pass, zero meaning fail.

If it failed, then the app would quit with the appropriate dialog.

Now, it was more code and more operations to cycle through, especially if i was stupid and andded tons of debug code. But naturally, when i finished a project and KNEW it worked (hence i didn't need debug code to test wehre it failed) i removed the debug code.

heh, sounds like my Java apps, they have a load of debug text being output, and it does slow things down a hell of a lot, thankfully find and replace quickly removes all of it, then again java is still slow - wheres my G5....

revs

[Catfish_Man]

New compiler, new Finder, more time to optimize, new BSD libraries (which apparently improve 'reentrancy', which I think affects multithreading), etc... I read somewhere that they finally got HW accelerated copybits back, which would account for the improved scrolling speed. Don't know if that's true though.

[fireside]

Originally posted by RooneyX:
I just want to add one more thing to this thread. They removed the Debug Code!



hahaha

haha the joke has already been made idiot.

[osxisfun]

Run, Forest, Run!

[iJed]

Panther is quite noticeably faster on my iBook 500. It is quite amazing how smooth scrolling down a web page in Safari is compared to Jaguar. Its still not Windows scrolling speed but its a hell of a lot better than it was. Things like tabs are far quicker to respond too and even Expos� is useable on my iBook (even though it is choppy).

Unfortunately on my PowerMac the flashed PC GeForce 2MX card does not work with the Panther drivers and causes a system freeze at startup. I'm going to attempt a manual upgrade of its firmware to see if that will fix the problem. Otherwise I'm going to have to get it a Radeon 8500 or something else cheap. Holding down shift at startup or removing the kernel extensions allows me to use the machine with Panther though.

I've now got Panther on my iBook as the only OS (since the speed improvement is so good) but I'm going to keep my PowerMac with Jag until the final Panther is out.

[Nai no Kami]

Originally posted by bgmccollum:
speaking of resizing...is there a way (app, plist) that could remove live resizing ala itunes 4 on non QE machines? i happen to like the outline resizing of the pre-X era.

and speed...yes, i can attest that it is a much faster. the main reason that i was unable to use X as my daily OS was because of the speed and some interface quirks. on my blue g3 300 its is great. i have been using it since wednesday and i am consistently impressed with the speed improvements. people with newer machines will not notice these speed increases due to their marginal improvements on faster machines.

good job apple. cant wait to see the final version.

I wanted to ask one thing: does Panther bring support for 3d accel on that model (i.e. RagePro)?. Thanks.

[stew]

Originally posted by iJed:
Panther is quite noticeably faster on my iBook 500. It is quite amazing how smooth scrolling down a web page in Safari is compared to Jaguar. Its still not Windows scrolling speed but its a hell of a lot better than it was.

And just a few days ago people used to pick on me when I dared to claim that Jaguar was not snappy...

[benb]

Originally posted by osxisfun:
Run, Forest, Run!

It is Forrest. Two r's.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by benb:
It is Forrest. Two r's.

It is "rs". No apostrophe.



-s*

[businezguy]

I haven't found Panther to be any faster then Jaguar. Of course, I didn't do a clean install, I did an upgrade. Perhaps that has something to do with it. Maybe that doesn't remove the debug code, etc. I don't know.

I'll try a clean install at some point, but as somebody said, a clean install is going to make any system go faster.

[businezguy]

I haven't found Panther to be any faster then Jaguar. Of course, I didn't do a clean install, I did an upgrade. Perhaps that has something to do with it. Maybe that doesn't remove the debug code, etc. I don't know.

I'll try a clean install at some point, but as somebody said, a clean install is going to make any system go faster.

[JLL]

Originally posted by businezguy:
Maybe that doesn't remove the debug code, etc. I don't know.

[wulf]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
It is "rs". No apostrophe.



-s*

Actually using an apostrophe for plurals of single letters (where confusion might otherwise arise) is one of the few examples where the "pluralising apostrophe" is generally considered correct usage, e.g., "dot the i's and cross the t's", "mind your p's and q's", etc.

Or were you just taking the p's?

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by wulf:
Or were you just taking the p's?

Teeheehee.

[cowerd]

I haven't found Panther to be any faster then Jaguar. Of course, I didn't do a clean install, I did an upgrade. Perhaps that has something to do with it. Maybe that doesn't remove the debug code, etc

To install wihtout debug code, you and your computer must be moving counterclockwise at 6.66 revolutions per minute within a pentagram no larger 2 meters inscribed diameter. At the time that you click the "install" button and at the time that the install finishes you must be facing in the general direction of Boise, Idaho.

Failure to meet all of these requirements results in debug code being installed.

[JLFanboy]

To install wihtout debug code, you and your computer must be moving counterclockwise at 6.66 revolutions per minute within a pentagram no larger 2 meters inscribed diameter. At the time that you click the "install" button and at the time that the install finishes you must be facing in the general direction of Boise, Idaho.

You mean that made my machine go faster, too? Go me!

[wtmcgee]

maybe a ken burns effect while switching users?

Originally posted by RooneyX:
I would like to see the the use of QE for virtual desktops like they've done for fast user switching. Also, different transitions. The cube is a cool effect at first but silly later. I'd like film style cross dissolves, slides and wipes.

[Simon]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
It is "rs". No apostrophe.

Originally posted by wulf:
Actually using an apostrophe for plurals of single letters (where confusion might otherwise arise) is one of the few examples where the "pluralising apostrophe" is generally considered correct usage, e.g., "dot the i's and cross the t's", "mind your p's and q's", etc.

Or were you just taking the p's?

Well, bloody hell, that's what we get when German guys start teaching english...

[tashi]

A friend of mine told me that they removed the debug code. Is it true?

[Simon]

Originally posted by tashi:
A friend of mine told me that they removed the debug code. Is it true?

Yes. They did that right after they told Motorola to overclock their 1GHz 7455s to 1.42GHz and that was right after they destroyed the last (secret) copies of the original OS X v10.0 B release that already lacked the 100,000 lines of debug code (by accident of course).


Guys, the joke is getting so old.

I pitty you for being so easily amused. Fatuity?

[tashi]

ROFL, i don't even know what the heck is a debug code!

[Simon]

Originally posted by tashi:
ROFL, i don't even know what the heck is a debug code!

Code:

# include <iostream.h>

int main()
{
  int a = 0;
  int b = 0;
  int c = 0;

  cout << "a=?";
  cin >> a;
  cout << "b=?";
  cin >> b;
  cout << "c=?";
  cin >> c;

  int theSum = 0;
  int theAverage = 0;

  theSum = a + b + c;
  theAverage = theSum / 3;

  // BEGIN DEBUG CODE
  cout >> theSum >> endl;
  // END DEBUG CODE

  cout >> "The average of the three entered numbers is " >> theAverage >> endl; 
}

That is debug code.

[Simon]

stupid me, double post. sorry.

[Catfish_Man]

Originally posted by tashi:
ROFL, i don't even know what the heck is a debug code!

Debug code is stuff that's put in to help the developers fix things, but taken out for the final product. Because they really don't care about performance during debugging, they often are willing to use techniques that reduce performance (logging everything that happens in the program and printing it to a file, for example). It's a running joke on macnn that they forgot to turn off the debug code in OSX.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Simon:
Well, bloody hell, that's what we get when German guys start teaching english...

You mean "English", of course.

[Simon]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
You mean "English", of course.

Hot damn!

When I sent off that message I knew I would screw up somewhere.

Darn.

[11011001]

Menus are a bit faster I think, and scaling and that sort of stuff might have been sped up.

But, I found loading folders in column view was kind of slow?? (is it just me?)

There is also an odd bug somewhere, I was using ICQ and like every 20 minutes it would get the beachball. Annoying. I was going to try and use it day to day, and I did for about 5 days, but by the 5th I couldn't take the bugs, and hangs.. I went back to Jaguar.

I miss the finder and expose ,though, they made USING the computer so much faster.