Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You are here: MacNN Forums > Software - Troubleshooting and Discussion > GUI Customization > Dashboard - Konfabulator similarity?

Dashboard - Konfabulator similarity?
Thread Tools
Dragon T
Dedicated MacNNer
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 28, 2004, 07:08 PM
 
http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/dashboard.html
Doesn't this new Dashboard from Apple look a lot like a cheaper version of Konfabulator?
They even use the term 'widgets' for each component.
I wonder where they got the idea from?
=)
D . R . A . G . O . N
. .
T . O . N . G . U . E
     
goMac
Posting Junkie
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Portland, OR
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 28, 2004, 07:41 PM
 
Originally posted by Dragon T:
http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/dashboard.html
Doesn't this new Dashboard from Apple look a lot like a cheaper version of Konfabulator?
They even use the term 'widgets' for each component.
I wonder where they got the idea from?
=)
It's a shame they ALL stole the idea from Microsoft.

Longhorn's dashboard sits to the right of the screen, and its biggest feature is an oddly familiar analog style clock.
8 Core 2.8 ghz Mac Pro/GF8800/2 23" Cinema Displays, 3.06 ghz Macbook Pro
Once you wanted revolution, now you're the institution, how's it feel to be the man?
     
Stradlater
Professional Poster
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Off the Tobakoff
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 28, 2004, 07:53 PM
 
Originally posted by goMac:
It's a shame they ALL stole the idea from Microsoft.
...How so?

And what specific idea do you consider dashboard?

Something akin to Apple's old desktop accessories, perhaps?
"You rise," he said, "like Aurora."
     
rhythmicmoose
Mac Enthusiast
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 28, 2004, 07:58 PM
 
It's absolutely shameful. Watson was a bit different, as that was just an evolution of what was already Apple's product, Sherlock. But this is Apple blatantly stealing a completely original concept and calling it their own.

I really feel sorry for the Konfab guys. I've been using Konfabulator for the last week, but have yet to register it. When the Tiger screens came out I was hoping that they would turn out to be fakes, but decided to hold off on a possible Konfabulator purchase until today. Now I don't know what to do. Part of me wants to buy Konfabulator out of sympathy (and because it seems like a more developed and feature-rich product), but another part of me knows that it's foolish to spend my money on something that I know I'm going to be buying in the near future anyway.

Aside from pursuing legal action, I think they only thing the Konfab guys can do is rise above it. Work like hell and make Konfabulator even better than it already is. They've already beaten Apple to this innovation, and I'm confident they can do it again.
     
goMac
Posting Junkie
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Portland, OR
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 28, 2004, 08:00 PM
 
Originally posted by Stradlater:
...How so?

And what specific idea do you consider dashboard?

Something akin to Apple's old desktop accessories, perhaps?
Desk Accessories ran differently from widgets. Widgets present information. The Clock, Calendar view, stock viewer, web cam viewer, these are all examples of retrieving information. System's 7's Desk Accessories (which were very short lived) were all about providing real world tools on your desktop (i.e. the Calculator).

The clock and stock ticker are all pages right out of Microsoft's book. While the clock might almost be considered a real world tool, these are information retrievers, MUCH like Active Desktop. Longhorn took Active Desktop, and essentially moved it into the sidebar, giving the user a heads up view of information.

This is a different idea from DA's.
8 Core 2.8 ghz Mac Pro/GF8800/2 23" Cinema Displays, 3.06 ghz Macbook Pro
Once you wanted revolution, now you're the institution, how's it feel to be the man?
     
lookmark
Mac Elite
Join Date: May 2001
Location: NYC
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 28, 2004, 08:24 PM
 
Well, Arlo got a raw deal, no doubt about it, but widgets are really not terribly different conceptually from desk accessories -- which, BTW, were obsoleted *by* System 7, not introduced with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desk_Accessory

And widgets, like their desk accessory ancestors, both provide means of interactivity (Calculator, iTunes controllers, etc.) and simply viewing information (clocks, stock viewers, etc). There's not such a fine line between them. Anyway, I'm not saying that Konfab wasn't nicely done, and somewhat original -- it was, due to its polished and extensible (if not exactly low-power and speedy) implementation -- but it wasn't groundbreaking.
     
goMac
Posting Junkie
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Portland, OR
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 28, 2004, 08:29 PM
 
Originally posted by lookmark:
Well, Arlo got a raw deal, no doubt about it, but widgets are really not terribly different conceptually from desk accessories -- which, BTW, were obsoleted *by* System 7, not introduced with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desk_Accessory

And widgets, like their desk accessory ancestors, both provide means of interactivity (Calculator, iTunes controllers, etc.) and simply viewing information (clocks, stock viewers, etc). There's not such a fine line between them. Anyway, I'm not saying that Konfab wasn't nicely done, and somewhat original -- it was, due to its polished and extensible (if not exactly low-power and speedy) implementation -- but it wasn't groundbreaking.
No, they still existed in System 7, but they morphed. If you ever see a System 7 machine these days, get info on Calculator, its a DA. DA's still existed in System 7, but they were abandon by developers in favor of Applications (which was the right move).

I really have a hard time remembering DA's on System 6. I've sold my SE, so I'll have to boot up vMac sometime. (Edit: I mean I know they existed, but I forget exactly how they worked, something is in my memory about that darn Font/DA Mover though.)
8 Core 2.8 ghz Mac Pro/GF8800/2 23" Cinema Displays, 3.06 ghz Macbook Pro
Once you wanted revolution, now you're the institution, how's it feel to be the man?
     
lookmark
Mac Elite
Join Date: May 2001
Location: NYC
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 28, 2004, 08:37 PM
 
Originally posted by goMac:
No, they still existed in System 7, but they morphed. If you ever see a System 7 machine these days, get info on Calculator, its a DA. DA's still existed in System 7, but they were abandon by developers in favor of Applications (which was the right move).

I really have a hard time remembering DA's on System 6. I've sold my SE, so I'll have to boot up vMac sometime.
Right, they were obsoleted. Eventually they transformed into full (little) applications.

It gets a bit muddled, as DAs only had a reason to technically exist when you could only open one application at a time... But my point is that *conceptually* DAs, as a collection of "mini" apps to be called up easily, dismissed easily, as both small tools and little information apps, served much the same purpose as Dashboard, Konfab, Active Desktop, and Longhorn's Sidebar. Albeit (1) in a fairly crude form, and (2) much more centered on being little tools, before there was an internet to really gather data from.

All of the above that followed DAs are following in their footsteps, as I far can tell; they're just doing it snazzier, smarter, with more constraints, focus, and adherence. (Scratch Active Desktop from that list, mind you.) IOW: Dashboard is an idea as old as the hills, in the latest, flashy garb -- with internal and external properties either cribbed or modeled shamelessly from Konfabulator.
     
Makki
Mac Elite
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: At Home
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 28, 2004, 08:54 PM
 
Konfabulators Response To WWDC04

They say a picture speaks a thousand words so here it is.......
Thanks to Duckie who i got the image from.
     
cube3
Mac Enthusiast
Join Date: Jan 2004
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 28, 2004, 09:18 PM
 
WTF has Limphorn got to do with this, I used Kon before Limphorn was hacked code on a korean desktop.

The problem here is Apple blatantly steamrolling their own community.

And Colin, what's to stop Apple coming out with a gui based dns configuration tool, maybe a radius tool for their base station, or maybe a gameboy emu for pda's? Let's be honest, none of them are particularly original ideas, so that makes them open targets for Apple now.

Regardless of how you feel about K, this plain sucks. I chose Apple because they innovate, not imitate.
     
olorin15
Dedicated MacNNer
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Bay Area
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 28, 2004, 10:19 PM
 
Silly people ... no one stole anything from Longhorn - these things have existed on Linux desktop for years. Anyone ever use WindowMaker or the likes? It has these things called DockApps, which are "widgets" that sit on the desktop and do just about anything. When I first saw Konfab, I was sure it was a new generation of that same idea. There's nothing very original here, and certainly NOT from M$ Why don't we start complaining that Appler stole the Dock from WindowMaker for that matter? Even the name!
Dopeler effect: The tendency of stupid ideas to seem smarter when they
come at you rapidly
     
wibs
Mac Enthusiast
Join Date: Dec 2003
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 28, 2004, 10:53 PM
 
I agree with olorin. The same big stink happened with Panther and LiteSwitch, but people seem to forget countless other prior arts.

Having Apple come out with something similar to your product has got to suck, to put it bluntly. I don't know how I'd feel if I ever did anything anywhere near cool enough for that to happen to it. But the fact is that advances in computing don't come through reinventing the wheel every time, it's through evolutionary and incremental changes, not necessarily by the company that came up with it in the first place.
DigitalRamen sucks.
     
goMac
Posting Junkie
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Portland, OR
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 28, 2004, 11:18 PM
 
Carpe Stellarem has a close relationship with Apple. We've worked closely with many people at Apple. StellarRADIUS was the result of a collaborative project with people from Apple's education group. StellarDNS was the result of some complaints about Apple's shortcomings in their DNS GUI (the response was basically, if you see things we're missing, write your own and feel free to profit from it). StellarRADIUS was the result of looking for a Mac OS X based RADIUS solution, and Apple helping us out and giving a similar recommendation that they gave with StellarDNS. Our lead programmer who wrote most of our server products has even flown down a few times to meet with the OS X Server team in Cupertino. So I suppose we're on the flip side. Our company is being very much helped by Apple. This isn't to say they won't re-do one of our products at some point, but we'll at least see it coming down the pipe.
8 Core 2.8 ghz Mac Pro/GF8800/2 23" Cinema Displays, 3.06 ghz Macbook Pro
Once you wanted revolution, now you're the institution, how's it feel to be the man?
     
Mac_Guy15
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 28, 2004, 11:34 PM
 
I just saw the broadcast and the widgets are way cooler.
     
afphreak01
Forum Regular
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: <? echo $location; ?>
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 28, 2004, 11:36 PM
 
i dont know, somehow i have a feeling i'm going to be using both....
i'm too lazy to come up with a sig
     
Theodour
Forum Regular
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: A drip off Lake Michigan
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 28, 2004, 11:42 PM
 
Originally posted by olorin15:
Silly people ... no one stole anything from Longhorn - these things have existed on Linux desktop for years. Anyone ever use WindowMaker or the likes? It has these things called DockApps, which are "widgets" that sit on the desktop and do just about anything. When I first saw Konfab, I was sure it was a new generation of that same idea. There's nothing very original here, and certainly NOT from M$ Why don't we start complaining that Appler stole the Dock from WindowMaker for that matter? Even the name!
Yup!
Konfabulator is way cool (I paid my fee long ago), and I bought it excited to add "linux functionality" it MacOS X! On Gnome they call them applets.
     
Mac_Guy15
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 29, 2004, 12:01 AM
 
Originally posted by afphreak01:
i dont know, somehow i have a feeling i'm going to be using both....
Why? Steve did say that you can make and program your own, exactly like konb. And the effects are soo cool.
     
afphreak01
Forum Regular
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: <? echo $location; ?>
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 29, 2004, 12:29 AM
 
Originally posted by Mac_Guy15:
Why? Steve did say that you can make and program your own, exactly like konb. And the effects are soo cool.
yes, but i got to press a button to get to them, sometimes i like having them right there with no need to do anything else plus who knows if its going to take off and everyone developes for dashboard now? remember the big stink with sherlock? now i dont really hear of anyone creating new channels for it and for that matter anyone really using it...
i'm too lazy to come up with a sig
     
goMac
Posting Junkie
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Portland, OR
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 29, 2004, 12:43 AM
 
Originally posted by Theodour:
Yup!
Konfabulator is way cool (I paid my fee long ago), and I bought it excited to add "linux functionality" it MacOS X! On Gnome they call them applets.
You have to admit the Longhorn widgets and the Tiger widgets are stylized very closely (IMO the Longhorn widgets look better, who gave the Apple artists the awful color palate?).

Here's my rundown of stuff Tiger has picked up from Longhorn:

Longhorn sidebar/clock widget:



Longhorn SyncServices:



Apple has adopted a list view for syncing similar to .Mac sync. Longhorn uses a list view for devices, but the look and feel is the same as .mac sync (I am yet to see if iSync is still in Tiger, or replaced by .Mac sync). Granted, Microsoft copied iSync, but now it feels as is Apple is copying Microsoft's copy. The general idea behind Longhorn's SyncServices also greatly matches the idea behind Apple's .Mac sync (developer API, sync to anything, etc).

Core Imaging also seems like Apple's response to Microsoft's Avalon API.

Don't get me wrong, I love Tiger's new features, but they are just playing catch-up to Microsoft's recently announced features. They'll beat Microsoft to launch, and it will look like Microsoft copied Apple, but Apple really is playing pretty dirty right now. There's no doubt in my mind though that Tiger WILL be Apple's final answer to Longhorn. Technologically it will have all the same features as Longhorn. I think Apple is hoping that while Microsoft is having to start all over on Windows, Mac OS X has been around long enough it will have the support to overtake Longhorn.

It'll be an interesting next few years, but original, Tiger is not.

Apple, you notice, is also integrating a webcam viewer as a widget. Another shareware program toast. But, its a nicer implementation so I'm not complaining.
8 Core 2.8 ghz Mac Pro/GF8800/2 23" Cinema Displays, 3.06 ghz Macbook Pro
Once you wanted revolution, now you're the institution, how's it feel to be the man?
     
olorin15
Dedicated MacNNer
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Bay Area
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 29, 2004, 01:12 AM
 
1. How do you know Apple hasn't had this stuff in the works for some time now? Maybe M$ somehow got a hold of early stages of development and then copied the ideas, promising them for Longhorn? You don't know do you? Neither do I. And if Apple can take an existing idea, implement it and release it way before the original is out, well hats off to Apple then!

2. I for one will not be complaining if OS X keeps incorporating good shareware that I had to pay for separetely before. Why would I?
Dopeler effect: The tendency of stupid ideas to seem smarter when they
come at you rapidly
     
Stradlater
Professional Poster
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Off the Tobakoff
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 29, 2004, 01:41 AM
 
Just watched the video...Dashboard looks a helluva lot better than Konfab in motion.
"You rise," he said, "like Aurora."
     
:dragonflypro:
Senior User
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Kuna, ID USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 29, 2004, 03:04 AM
 
Oh, BooHoo.

Kon didn't have the patent on JS widgets, it was not a new idea when they did it, and it seems to be a fussy implementation. Get over it.

Apple is generating an application that will improve workflow and usability to the OS.

They have certainly been planning this for a longer period than many of you care to gather, which is at the very least exhibited by the release of an SDK with it today. The widgets are tech preview items, more or less and their visual quality is pretty much irrelevant.

Sure, it probably sucks to be the Konfab devs, but the thing they need to do is give a reason to pay the 20 bucks now, to push the limits. This is what comes about by this sort of thing by Apple, even if just a by-product.

T

PS for all the whining about apple 'stealing' this, I can point to gaggles of examples of people lamenting why this or that app is not free. I wonder if they are the same peeps.
     
maziu
Fresh-Faced Recruit
Join Date: Nov 2003
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 29, 2004, 03:30 AM
 
Originally posted by olorin15:
Silly people ... no one stole anything from Longhorn - these things have existed on Linux desktop for years. Anyone ever use WindowMaker or the likes? It has these things called DockApps, which are "widgets" that sit on the desktop and do just about anything. When I first saw Konfab, I was sure it was a new generation of that same idea. There's nothing very original here, and certainly NOT from M$ Why don't we start complaining that Appler stole the Dock from WindowMaker for that matter? Even the name!
And WindowMaker is a NextStep imitator. It's part of GnuStep. Apple owns Next. I see this as Apple making the Mac OS more NextStep-ish. Mac OS X has always been a marriage between Mac and Next interface ideas. Sometimes it works better than others.
     
Fonzie
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 29, 2004, 03:55 AM
 
Well, you know that imitation is the best form to show respect to others, or something. I think it's great what Apple does with these widgets. If they name them ".widget" I think the are pulling their own arse(ass) hairs, so to speak.

I see Dashboard as an extension. Not a blatant ripoff. The widgets are different in the way that they flip over and stuff. Plus, they are not similar in style in anyway, atleast not a direct ripoff of the current widgets for Konfabulator. Go Apple!

Make everything rotate. Like the Finder for instance Or the whole desktop.
There's No Offposition On the Genius Switch - David Letterman
     
maziu
Fresh-Faced Recruit
Join Date: Nov 2003
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 29, 2004, 04:55 AM
 
Originally posted by wibs:
I agree with olorin. The same big stink happened with Panther and LiteSwitch, but people seem to forget countless other prior arts.

Having Apple come out with something similar to your product has got to suck, to put it bluntly. I don't know how I'd feel if I ever did anything anywhere near cool enough for that to happen to it. But the fact is that advances in computing don't come through reinventing the wheel every time, it's through evolutionary and incremental changes, not necessarily by the company that came up with it in the first place.
It's well within reason for an operating system maker to want to improve their product. That's how they get you to buy the new version. When your OS lacks some feature, and another app adds it, you're not eliminating your competition. You're removing a niche market that appeared to modify or add-on to your product. It's like Honda selling CD players preinstalled in cars. Honda's customers don't want to go get CD players installed in their cars, so they buy them preinstalled. The same is true of web browsers, media players, and a whole lot of essential applications and unessential applications.

If Apple was giving Logic Audio Platinum away free with OS X, then I'd cry foul play. Not many need or want to make music, and those who do don't all need or want something as powerful as Logic. Apple would just be squashing Steinberg's ability to sell Cubase on the Mac, and that's just abusive. It'd be like Honda selling all their cars with free trailors because they're willing to take a loss on them today, so that tomorrow when all the trailor manufacturers are out of business, they can dictate price on trailors.

If Apple wants to add a general purpose utility, like Konfabulator, to their OS, then that's fine. They should. If Konfabulator was patentable, then they could license the patent to Apple and still get a piece of the pie, the value-driven pie. Competition is merciless, and patents are designed to add some protection against competition, limited monopoly power, when you have really contributed something new and original to the market. If Konfabulator had done that, they should have patented it.

We should be careful not to setup a market such that CD players for cars never get invented because potential CD player inventers know that once CD players become must-have parts they're going to be bumped out of the market by the car manufactuers. Patent laws prevent against this.

The only person who should be crying here is the developer of Konfabulator. He has a good product that might get bumped out of the market. It sucks for him, but it's good for everyone else.
     
joltguy
Mac Enthusiast
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 127.0.0.1
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 29, 2004, 07:55 AM
 
Originally posted by goMac:

Core Imaging also seems like Apple's response to Microsoft's Avalon API.
I kinda thought that Avalon was Microsoft's response to Quartz Extreme.
     
Fonzie
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 29, 2004, 08:16 AM
 
goMac = Bill Gates ?????


There's No Offposition On the Genius Switch - David Letterman
     
Randman
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: MacNN database error. Please refresh your browser.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 29, 2004, 09:03 AM
 
It'll be interesting to see if the Konfab Widgets will work with Dashboard.

This is a computer-generated message and needs no signature.
     
RydDragyn
Junior Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 29, 2004, 09:32 AM
 
I find the entire Konfabulator concept rather useless, so I don't care about the issue from a useability standpoint.

From a business standpoint, integrating the feature was actually very smart.

And let's face it - imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Although the developers of Konfabulator may feel shafted from a business standpoint, it's highly unlikely that they were making a living off of it in the first place.
     
m a d r a
Mac Elite
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: the intarweb
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 29, 2004, 10:38 AM
 
Originally posted by RydDragyn:
I find the entire Konfabulator concept rather useless, so I don't care about the issue from a useability standpoint.
ditto: i've never felt the slightest urge to download konfab, so the fact that this useless eye-candy is now going to be built into the OS leaves me underwhelmed with excitement.
     
vertex
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: At the end of an edge
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 29, 2004, 11:06 AM
 
Being devil's advocate here. Got to say that Apple's 'Redmond, get your photocopiers ready' seems to have backfired on Apple, IMO. Apple demonstrated nothing that would imply MS are going to be behind Apple in the OS wars. In fact, it said to me that Apple are copying already current ideas out there, and stuff that Longhorn has, but better implemented.

Longhorn already has a far far bettre implementation of a standard place for evolving info, he Sidebar. Dshboard might be a hyper version of Konfab, but konfab is a world away from the functionality and implentation of good user interaction that is seen in Sidebar.

I won;t start on Apple's metadata indexing service, it's not in the same league as WinFS.

Did anyone else notice the Finder serch functions? XP already has a thorough search function in every Window, but Longhorn takes that to another level.
     
Mediaman_12
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Manchester,UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 29, 2004, 11:17 AM
 
Originally posted by vertex:
Did anyone else notice the Finder serch functions? XP already has a thorough search function in every Window, but Longhorn takes that to another level.
Have you ever used this on XP it is dire (begining with the idiotic dog that apears by default, and ending with it increadable slowness). The search that is built in to Panther windows is streets ahead, and there is nothing to touch the 'command f' functionality.
     
Kate
Senior User
Join Date: Jan 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 29, 2004, 11:26 AM
 
It does not matter that Konfabulator is/was useless/ugly/meaningless or how well it sold and whether it brought a fortune in revenues.

What does matter is that it is a blatant rip-off. Not more, not less.
It is neither illegal nor infringes copyrights since common tech was used there.

But it is a rip-off. An obvious one at that. And it comes while all those posters with Redmond-copy-jokes were hung up. Double standards. Double moral. Hypocrite, yes.

While I acclaim competition, I do not acclaim unfair practice. Apples stance in this matter is disgusting. Period.


On the other side this shows a lack of own creativity to deliver new oohs and ahhs. Want to make people buy Tiger? Put in serious tech, scratch out buggy things, put in long overdue features. Maybe they will do that. Maybe not. This severe sign of marketing puff only hype is making me fear again that vital shortcomings might only be addressed so-so in Tiger.
Anyway, Apples regard is severly hit. Old arrogant habits die hard it seems. It should make Apples employees blush and I'm sure some do.

Apples PR crew will have to withstand a lot of ugly questioning from the press. I pity them.
     
Randman
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: MacNN database error. Please refresh your browser.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 29, 2004, 12:08 PM
 
Originally posted by Kate:
What does matter is that it is a blatant rip-off. Not more, not less.
It is neither illegal nor infringes copyrights since common tech was used there.

But it is a rip-off. An obvious one at that. While I acclaim competition, I do not acclaim unfair practice. Apples stance in this matter is disgusting. Period.
And were you equally upset recently when Konfabulator 1.7 introduced Konpos�? The "Expos� for your Widgets?" If not, why? It fit the same criteria you stated above.

This is a computer-generated message and needs no signature.
     
Kate
Senior User
Join Date: Jan 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 29, 2004, 12:22 PM
 
Originally posted by Randman:
And were you equally upset recently when Konfabulator 1.7 introduced Konpos�? The "Expos� for your Widgets?" If not, why? It fit the same criteria you stated above.
I was upset. It was stupidly imitating a false concept. Especially for imitating a concept that is already more dead than alive from a plain user perspective. Expose is bad GUI. This seems not to be the concensus, but it is a form of show-off thing, with little relevance to most or many average users. According to my experience and according to my own usage. I have desktop and window clutter and I forget about Expose all the time. I see others do likewise. It is a nice gadget if you stumble across it. That's all.

Apple seems to have copied from Konfabulator. A lot. Even the misconcepts. That's hard!
This suggests a cheap copy process. We'll see later next year what they make of it.
Do they use the same JavaScript engine like Konfabulator? Why not AppleScript? That would open up a lot for users and developers. Or Perl? Apple invested much into Perl recently....well maybe I just don't get it.
     
goMac
Posting Junkie
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Portland, OR
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 29, 2004, 12:30 PM
 
Originally posted by joltguy:
I kinda thought that Avalon was Microsoft's response to Quartz Extreme.
Avalon is two things really (you've got to love Microsoft's naming department). Avalon is a windowing system that works with your graphics card, like Quartz Extreme.

Avalon is also an API to work with images and do light duty 3D effects (like Core Images). It's like a little version of DirectX for 2D images.

And no, I'm not Bill Gates, just a realist.
8 Core 2.8 ghz Mac Pro/GF8800/2 23" Cinema Displays, 3.06 ghz Macbook Pro
Once you wanted revolution, now you're the institution, how's it feel to be the man?
     
derdomi
Fresh-Faced Recruit
Join Date: Dec 2003
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 29, 2004, 01:08 PM
 
yeah... longhorn might have some of the features tiger will offer by next year. But it seems M$ needs a lot more time to integrate them into a working system. Maybe Apple steels many ideas for their systems. I say "so what"! The first who delivers the functionality is the winner. I cannot go n' buy Longhorn next year, can I?
     
cSurfr
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2002
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 29, 2004, 01:14 PM
 
Personally I think konfabulator is useless. I don't dig screen clutter, so that ended it for me. Also, what's with the "konspose" button? all it does it hides the desktop so I can clearly see all the clutter that I currently have. The Dashboard however close it might look to konfobulator is already years ahead. One keystroke and they appear and / or disappear. How convenient is that. I would also imagine that just like expose you can assign a corner or your screen and just mouse on over there. It only takes a second. Previous posters said they never use expose. I would say I use it all the time for emailing photos and the like. Konfabulator was bloatware, and apple streamlined it completely. Can't complain that something useless just became useful
     
Anderton
Fresh-Faced Recruit
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 29, 2004, 01:30 PM
 
The MS Style of dashboard is nothing new as many other have said before me. Sure it looks pretty, and of course they have put it on steroids (just waiting for the first security flaw). But nothing new under the sun. Many of the ideas in Tiger is from the NextStep days and BeOS. There is no coincidence that Apple have pepole from Next and BeOS (doh!) working on MacOS X. This is a step in the right path, and i am not that surprised. The "dashboard" is of course 95% ripped from Konfabulator. I hope that i not will slow down my machine as much as Konfabulator.

And remember. Everyone borrows good ideas. (and sometimes steal them)

http://www.osnews.com/img/534/qnx3.jpg
http://www.clarkson.edu/~hillbr/beosscreen.htm
http://www.runningfromamerica.com/dementia/atheos.html
http://www.contact.net/os2/TOUR/page1.htm
http://www120.pair.com/mccarthy/nextstep/intro.htmld/
     
siliconwarrior
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 29, 2004, 01:45 PM
 
"Expose is bad GUI. This seems not to be the concensus, but it is a form of show-off thing, with little relevance to most or many average users. According to my experience and according to my own usage. I have desktop and window clutter and I forget about Expose all the time."


Just because you don't use it does not mean it's 'bad GUI'. I have found expos� to be very useful, but then maybe I just work faster.

I don't understand where people are getting this 'Apple copying Microsoft' crap from, as far as I can see the only thing they've 'stolen' is the name Dashboard, that's nothing compared to what's been pinched from Konfabulator.

Anyway Longtooth isn't even out, or close to being out, and if it was would that mean that analog clocks would henceforth be the intellectual property of M$? I think clocks have been around longer than our friends at Redmond. And there's only so many ways of laying out a calendar.
Silicon-Age Warrior
     
Stradlater
Professional Poster
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Off the Tobakoff
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 29, 2004, 01:55 PM
 
Originally posted by Kate:
Expose is bad GUI. This seems not to be the concensus, but it is a form of show-off thing, with little relevance to most or many average users. According to my experience and according to my own usage. I have desktop and window clutter and I forget about Expose all the time. I see others do likewise. It is a nice gadget if you stumble across it. That's all.
Ignorance is bliss, I guess. Get a mouse with more than two buttons and a scroll wheel. I have one extra button:
PIC HERE

The button even shows a couple windows on it. I use this for F9 behavior. Then I made the top right corner of my screen activate the F11 (show desktop) behavior. Dragging files, text, images, etc. between windows (in Finder, Photoshop, iChat, TextEdit, etc.) and between those windows and the Desktop has never been easier. I can access files on the desktop easily, and move them even more easily. Never have to touch the keyboard or access the menubar. Never have to click on anything but the file. It's much faster; I guess most people don't know how to use it, though.

Originally posted by Kate:
Apple seems to have copied from Konfabulator. A lot. Even the misconcepts. That's hard!
This suggests a cheap copy process. We'll see later next year what they make of it.
Do they use the same JavaScript engine like Konfabulator? Why not AppleScript? That would open up a lot for users and developers. Or Perl? Apple invested much into Perl recently....well maybe I just don't get it.
The "cheap copy" still seems worlds better than the original. Konfab took an already-existing idea (partially in Apple's 20-year-old DAs, mostly in 3rd-party WindowsX or whatever it's called for PCs) and implemented a buggy, memory-hungry beast that never caught on; the widgets got in the way, rather than being available but never being in the way--in Dashboard.
"You rise," he said, "like Aurora."
     
gbafan
Dedicated MacNNer
Join Date: Aug 2002
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 29, 2004, 02:06 PM
 
Originally posted by Stradlater:
The "cheap copy" still seems worlds better than the original. Konfab took an already-existing idea (partially in Apple's 20-year-old DAs, mostly in 3rd-party WindowsX or whatever it's called for PCs) and implemented a buggy, memory-hungry beast that never caught on; the widgets got in the way, rather than being available but never being in the way--in Dashboard.
Could not have said this better myself. Let's see if Dashboard actually gets it right, if not, I'll just disable it.
MacBook Pro
     
cube3
Mac Enthusiast
Join Date: Jan 2004
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 29, 2004, 02:30 PM
 
Hello, this has nothing to do with whether you like Konfab or not, this has everything to do with Apple stomping on smaller developers, like Watson and LiteSwitch before it.

Don't pretend that Apple didn't "research" Konfab for dashboard, they use the term widgets, they basically copied Konfabs most popular widgets for the demo. The resemblance is uncanny and nothing like DA, or any of the other mini app API's around.

But it's totally ok now, we have a free version of konfab, with totally sweet lazer effects, after launch everyone will have forgotten, we can be happy like. In 2 years when OS X Puma comes, we can look forward to Apple pummeling another small app company.

No matter what you might think if the app, no one can deny that Arlo and Perry have always been an asset to the mac community, lets not chase them away.
     
Stradlater
Professional Poster
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Off the Tobakoff
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 29, 2004, 03:13 PM
 
Originally posted by cube3:
Hello, this has nothing to do with whether you like Konfab or not, this has everything to do with Apple stomping on smaller developers, like Watson and LiteSwitch before it.

Don't pretend that Apple didn't "research" Konfab for dashboard, they use the term widgets, they basically copied Konfabs most popular widgets for the demo. The resemblance is uncanny and nothing like DA, or any of the other mini app API's around.

But it's totally ok now, we have a free version of konfab, with totally sweet lazer effects, after launch everyone will have forgotten, we can be happy like. In 2 years when OS X Puma comes, we can look forward to Apple pummeling another small app company.

No matter what you might think if the app, no one can deny that Arlo and Perry have always been an asset to the mac community, lets not chase them away.
Konfabulator merely put Docklets and Menulets in the open air; and yes, there are some aspects reminiscent of Apple DAs (calculator, notepad/stickies...). While Apple's Dashboard "widgets" function similarly to Konfabulator's, it's not like Konfabulator was such an original idea (as mentioned before, there is an identical 3rd party instance in Windows that occured first--oh yeah, and LiteSwitch isn't even an issue, so don't mention it, Windows had the same functionality first). Konfabulator's clock widget, for one, is a lot like Apple's Clock.app...these features were obvious, Konfabulator moved in quickly, Apple eventually moved in as well.

Arlo and Perry should stop worrying and either work on Konfabulator to make it still worth the money, or move on to a new project they can profit on from their users' plug-ins.
"You rise," he said, "like Aurora."
     
cube3
Mac Enthusiast
Join Date: Jan 2004
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 29, 2004, 03:32 PM
 
Ahh, it was a totally natural progression, Apple clearly did not look at any of the other products, OMG they wouldn't do that. That's something that Microsoft would do...

I was at dinner with Bill gates the other night...
     
Stradlater
Professional Poster
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Off the Tobakoff
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 29, 2004, 04:12 PM
 
Originally posted by cube3:
Ahh, it was a totally natural progression, Apple clearly did not look at any of the other products, OMG they wouldn't do that. That's something that Microsoft would do...

I was at dinner with Bill gates the other night...
It's obvious that Apple worked off of parts of Konfabulator's more general idea--maybe even without a passive cryptomnesia. But Konfabulator worked off of parts of Apple's (look at Clock.app and, again, the DAs of old). Apple would have, almost definitely, eventually made it to Dashboard or Something Like It; just because Konfabulator stepped, intermediately, into the way Apple was paving towards, doesn't mean the developers should complain about the cement in their shoes.
"You rise," he said, "like Aurora."
     
optimus_prime
Fresh-Faced Recruit
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: southern california
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 29, 2004, 04:51 PM
 
anybody check the stock ticker on dashboard?
AAPL + 7.36 to 42.05
MSFT - 1.34 to 18.23
     
Kate
Senior User
Join Date: Jan 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 29, 2004, 04:54 PM
 
Originally posted by Stradlater:
Ignorance is bliss, I guess. Get a mouse with more than two buttons and a scroll wheel.
No, it's not. The uninformed stumble into traps and get hurt. That's hardly bliss, is it?
I have a two button mouse with a scroll wheel which acts as a third button. My workflow differs from yours. I'm using custom contextual menus.


A quick poll through our network reveals that most people think expose is a text that proposes things, intended to be read by senior management. Ignorance vs Expose 1:0 .
56 Mac users had not heard from it. 12 heard of it. 8 could tell what it is. Users: 0 .
I am sure this does not reflect the general user. But its worse than I thought. Makes me think. Expose may be a feature for the rare user .

Anyway, I degress.

Why didn't Apple simply announce a new Finder instead of coming up with a rehashed copy of not exactly genuine ideas? What would be the reaction if Apple decided to redo Aqua and imitate one of the popular GUIs found around here? Is this discussion not a bit too far on the Apple-is-always-doing-right side? I'm not sure it is, I'm not sure it's not.

I cannot get rid of the feeling my favourite company showed an unbecoming face. Could someone please convince me the opposite is true? Pretty please?
     
Stradlater
Professional Poster
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Off the Tobakoff
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 29, 2004, 05:03 PM
 
Originally posted by Kate:
No, it's not. The uninformed stumble into traps and get hurt. That's hardly bliss, is it?
I have a two button mouse with a scroll wheel which acts as a third button. My workflow differs from yours. I'm using custom contextual menus.


A quick poll through our network reveals that most people think expose is a text that proposes things, intended to be read by senior management. Ignorance vs Expose 1:0 .
56 Mac users had not heard from it. 12 heard of it. 8 could tell what it is. Users: 0 .
I am sure this does not reflect the general user. But its worse than I thought. Makes me think. Expose may be a feature for the rare user .
Your workflow indeed differs. I could not do most of what I do with Expose with custom CMs...

It's unfortunate people don't know what Expose is and how well it works, but it's also unfortunate that the average computer user doesn't know how keyboard-shortcuts for menuitems work.
"You rise," he said, "like Aurora."
     
tipp-ex
Fresh-Faced Recruit
Join Date: Mar 2004
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 29, 2004, 05:05 PM
 
Originally posted by Kate:
I cannot get rid of the feeling my favourite company showed an unbecoming face. Could someone please convince me the opposite is true? Pretty please?

Agreed. However we haven't got all the information to hand. They *may* have good reasons for doing this. Alternatively they could have been desperately trying to find extra features to put in there so it didn't look quite so lame.
     
 
Thread Tools
 
Forum Links
Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Top
Privacy Policy
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:50 PM.
All contents of these forums © 1995-2017 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Branding + Design: www.gesamtbild.com
vBulletin v.3.8.8 © 2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.,