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Zimphire · Nov 3, 2004, 04:19 PM

http://reformed-theology.org/html/is...hate_crime.htm

"Hate Crime" Hypocrites

The hypocrisy of "hate crime" propagandists was underscored by the media's handling of Larry Gene Ashbrook's shooting rampage at the Wedgwood Baptist Church. The talking heads who are quick to view any attack on a member of a government-ordained victim group as a "hate crime" were once again unwilling to apply the same standard to an assault on Christians.

There is no doubt as to Ashbrook's animus toward Christianity. According to witnesses, Ashbrook spewed anti-religious invective even as he targeted victims. Interrupting a religious song, he shouted to several youngsters, "I can't believe you believe this junk and singing this. This religion is [expletive]."

Mary Beth Talley, 17, who was wounded during the rampage, recalled: "He was saying, 'Your religion is nothing, it's not worth anything, it means nothing.' "Twelve-year-old Caleb Payne recalled that Ashbrook screamed and cursed as he approached the pews: "He said, 'This religious stuff is a bunch of bull.' He said that over five times. And he kept firing." Despite such firsthand testimony, authorities insisted they could not find a motive for the shootings.

Similarly, the "hate" crimes issue was not raised earlier this year when Columbine High School student Cassie Bernall was shot to death after replying "Yes" when asked if she believed in God. (The issue was raised in the case of a fellow Columbine student who was black.)

Nor was the issue raised in the case of the 1997 shooting at Heath High School in West Paducah, Kentucky. In that tragedy, 14-year-old self-professed atheist Michael Carneal killed three students, and wounded five others, who had just participated in a prayer circle. Brent Baker, vice president of research and publications for the Media Research Center, notes that Carneal's religious bias "was never a theme raised on TV networks" even though "it became quite clear later on that [Carneal's anti-religious sentiment] was the motivation." Baker observes: "When it is a particular minority group that's attacked, the media assume that's the reason for the attack. When it happens to Christians, the media don't assume that at all."

William Merrell, a spokesman for the Southern Baptist Convention, also believes that "there is a growing climate of hostility ... directed against Christians," and that "there are many who appeal to the populace for hate crimes legislation when certain groups are targeted, but remain curiously silent when other groups are." He ominously adds that the "virile and fertile culture" of anti-Christian hostility is "growing rapidly."

The SCARY part about this is, this guy sounds like a lot of the anti-Christian bigots in here that constantly make anti-Christian threads.

These type of people remind me of the kind of person society will eventually have to shoot off a lonely water tower.

Such hate breeds ignorance. Ignorance that is spread right here in MacNN by those who consider themselves tolerant and again hate and hate crimes.

The Hypocrisy is thick.

Disgruntled Head of C-3PO · Nov 3, 2004, 04:36 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
The SCARY part about this is, this guy sounds like a lot of the anti-Christian bigots in here that constantly make anti-Christian threads.

These type of people remind me of the kind of person society will eventually have to shoot off a lonely water tower.

Such hate breeds ignorance. Ignorance that is spread right here in MacNN by those who consider themselves tolerant and again hate and hate crimes.

The Hypocrisy is thick.

Set your faces to stunned. It is a Zimphire "someone said something bad about Christianity so I have to start and thread about the opposite to balance things out".

Anyone care enough to point out the whole hypocrisy about Anti gay Christians molesting choir boys left right and centre. Not to mention all the "love your fellow man" yet judge, hate and kill in the name of god.

The Hypocrisy is thick.

the_glassman · Nov 3, 2004, 04:37 PM

The only thing that worries me is your own ignorance.

simonjames · Nov 3, 2004, 04:39 PM

This wouldn't have anything to do with the USA's juvenile predilection with firearms?

No guns no massacres

And Zimp - hate is still the issue here - religion & hate go hand in hand - its just that in this once-off event the shoe was on the other foot.

As an aside - it would be interesting if there existed a meeting place for areligious people (as in those who don't have a religion) - sort of a claytons church - the church you have when you don't have religion. Any bets as to how long before that building would be torched?

Zimphire · Nov 3, 2004, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO:
Set your faces to stunned. It is a Zimphire "someone said something bad about Christianity so I have to start and thread about the opposite to balance things out".

SWF, if that was the case, I would have TONS of these threads. Because you seem obsessed with Christians.

Anyone care enough to point out the whole hypocrisy about Anti gay Christians molesting choir boys left right and centre. Not to mention all the "love your fellow man" yet judge, hate and kill in the name of god.

The Hypocrisy is thick.

WOW strawman anyone?

You sound a lot like the guy in the article SWF. And that is sad. You are a hypocrite.

Zimphire · Nov 3, 2004, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by simonjames:
hate is still the issue here - religion & hate go hand in hand

Wow that is your opinion which really has no relevance to the truth.

- its just that in this once-off event the shoe was on the other foot.

One off? Would you like me to show you more examples?

Hate is a human thing. Not a religious thing.

Until you can come to grips with that, I don't know what to tell you.

I HATE no one.

Scientist · Nov 3, 2004, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Hate is a human thing...I HATE no one.

What are you if you aren't human?

phoenixboy70 · Nov 3, 2004, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Wow that is your opinion which really has no relevance to the truth.

i second his opinion and further claim that 99% of all hate crimes are either faith based or are caused by ethnic strife, and most of the time a combination of both.

simonjames · Nov 3, 2004, 05:09 PM

Zimp - I haven't accused you of hating anyone so step down off the dillusional pedestal and take a walk through the garden of reality.

And as Scientist pointed out - if you believe hate is a human thing but you hate no one......

Wiskedjak · 05:28 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
http://reformed-theology.org/html/is...hate_crime.htm

I agree. This does look like a hate crime.

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Similarly, the "hate" crimes issue was not raised earlier this year when Columbine High School student Cassie Bernall was shot to death after replying "Yes" when asked if she believed in God. (The issue was raised in the case of a fellow Columbine student who was black.)

This one I don't think was hate-based. The Columbine shooting did not appear to be focussed on Christians. The question "Do you believe in God" just prior to shooting someone appears to be more something mimicked from a movie rather than targetting Christians.

absmiths · Nov 3, 2004, 05:37 PM

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
This one I don't think was hate-based. The Columbine shooting did not appear to be focussed on Christians. The question "Do you believe in God" just prior to shooting someone appears to be more something mimicked from a movie rather than targetting Christians.

I don't think he was saying that tongue-in-cheek, as in "prepare to meet your maker". He was asking her to put her life on the line and affirm her faith at gunpoint. Yes, the entire rampage was not hate-crime against Christians, but that one incident clearly was.

absmiths · Nov 3, 2004, 05:40 PM

Originally posted by simonjames:
And as Scientist pointed out - if you believe hate is a human thing but you hate no one......

Zimp was not saying that all humans hate. The association from religion to hate was made earlier and Zimp was obviously saying that hatred doesn't come from religion - it comes from humans who legitimize it any way they can. It comes from ethnic groups who decide they need to cleanse the world of other groups (Nazis, Ruwanda), religions that teach that other beliefs (including no-beliefs) should be destroyed, and political lobby groups who lobby in hatred and want the country run exactly their way.

So, his obvious point was that hate is a human emotion, not a byproduct of religion, and that he has hate for noone. How hard is that?

absmiths · Nov 3, 2004, 05:47 PM

Originally posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO:
Anyone care enough to point out the whole hypocrisy about Anti gay Christians molesting choir boys left right and centre. Not to mention all the "love your fellow man" yet judge, hate and kill in the name of god.

The Hypocrisy is thick.

Yeah, I suppose that a gay man molesting a choirboy is OK? Now that I think about it, a man molesting a choirboy is a homosexual - or at least bisexual.

And to clear up your obvious deception, Christians do not condone molestation. A person in authority in a church who molests children deserves the worst punishment possible. Christians are not "Anti Gay". Christians believe that homosexuality is a sinful, dangerous lifestyle. It is because we are compassionate that we take a stand - it isn't about controlling other people's behavior.

Every time I come here at least at some point I wonder why.

Disgruntled Head of C-3PO · Nov 3, 2004, 05:52 PM

Originally posted by absmiths:
Yeah, I suppose that a gay man molesting a choirboy is OK? Now that I think about it, a man molesting a choirboy is a homosexual - or at least bisexual.

And to clear up your obvious deception, Christians do not condone molestation. A person in authority in a church who molests children deserves the worst punishment possible. Christians are not "Anti Gay". Christians believe that homosexuality is a sinful, dangerous lifestyle. It is because we are compassionate that we take a stand - it isn't about controlling other people's behavior.

Every time I come here at least at some point I wonder why.

Who said it was ok? Anyone who molest anyone else should be charged. Where did I say Christians condone molestation? They ignore it for year but not ignore.

Christians are are anti-gay no matter what you say. Sorry, just calling the sin a crime doesn't ignore the fact that they don't like the person unless they are straight.

TheBadgerHunter · Nov 3, 2004, 05:54 PM

Originally posted by simonjames:
Zimp - I haven't accused you of hating anyone so step down off the dillusional pedestal and take a walk through the garden of reality.

And as Scientist pointed out - if you believe hate is a human thing but you hate no one......

Wait, wait. So lemme get this straight. Lets say... oh, hate, is an attribute, or capability, of humans. So how do you go from there to it being inherent? Nervous break-downs are a human thing but I'm not having one. Teen pregnancy is a human thing...

wolfen · Nov 3, 2004, 05:57 PM

When you key in on divisive camps (such as religious and non-religious, Republican vs. Democrat) and antagonize people online you are fanning the flames of hatred.

TheBadgerHunter · Nov 3, 2004, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO:
Christians are are anti-gay no matter what you say. Sorry, just calling the sin a crime doesn't ignore the fact that they don't like the person unless they are straight.

No, they aren't. Now I can't speak for christians in general, being a single person. I can say that the bible does not set any example for hating, disliking, or otherwise shunning gays. In fact I would argue that christians protesting gay marriage are not following the bible but I can't really prove that last point in a post here.

TheBadgerHunter · Nov 3, 2004, 06:00 PM

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:
i second his opinion and further claim that 99% of all hate crimes are either faith based or are caused by ethnic strife, and most of the time a combination of both.

And I claim that 90% of cows are actually painted, fat, cows.

ambush · Nov 3, 2004, 06:02 PM

Impeach Zimphire!

Kilbey · Nov 3, 2004, 06:26 PM

Originally posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO:

Anyone care enough to point out the whole hypocrisy about Anti gay Christians molesting choir boys left right and centre. Not to mention all the "love your fellow man" yet judge, hate and kill in the name of god.

The Hypocrisy is thick.

Indeed.

How is this related to the what Zimphire posted?

Kilbey · Nov 3, 2004, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by simonjames:

As an aside - it would be interesting if there existed a meeting place for areligious people (as in those who don't have a religion) - sort of a claytons church - the church you have when you don't have religion. Any bets as to how long before that building would be torched?

It already exists. It is called the Unitarian Universal Church.

Kilbey · Nov 3, 2004, 06:28 PM

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:
i second his opinion and further claim that 99% of all hate crimes are either faith based or are caused by ethnic strife, and most of the time a combination of both.

It's a good thing it's your opinion and not the truth.

Hate breeds from ignorance.

Kilbey · Nov 3, 2004, 06:31 PM

Originally posted by absmiths:
Yeah, I suppose that a gay man molesting a choirboy is OK? Now that I think about it, a man molesting a choirboy is a homosexual - or at least bisexual.

It couldn't have been because he was a homosexual. It had to be because he was a Christian. [/SARCASM!!!]

Originally posted by absmiths:
Every time I come here at least at some point I wonder why.

I wonder why I came back.

ambush · Nov 3, 2004, 06:31 PM

Originally posted by Kilbey:
Indeed.

How is this related to the what Zimphire posted?

Uh.. maybe you need to activate your brain.

Kilbey · Nov 3, 2004, 06:42 PM

Originally posted by ambush:
Uh.. maybe you need to activate your brain.

I'm not the one leaning on strawmen.

EDIT:added image.

Zimphire · Nov 3, 2004, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by Scientist:
What are you if you aren't human?

It's a human emotion. Humans do it. Religion cannot.

I however, feel no hatred or hate anyone.

I have however felt hatred before.

Make more sense?

Originally posted by simonjames:
Zimp - I haven't accused you of hating anyone

Wha? When did I say anyone accused me of hating? When did I even mention you?

so step down off the dillusional pedestal and take a walk through the garden of reality.

Read above. I think you need to take your own advice.

Originally posted by absmiths:
Zimp was not saying that all humans hate. The association from religion to hate was made earlier and Zimp was obviously saying that hatred doesn't come from religion - it comes from humans who legitimize it any way they can. It comes from ethnic groups who decide they need to cleanse the world of other groups (Nazis, Ruwanda), religions that teach that other beliefs (including no-beliefs) should be destroyed, and political lobby groups who lobby in hatred and want the country run exactly their way.

So, his obvious point was that hate is a human emotion, not a byproduct of religion, and that he has hate for noone. How hard is that?

See, someone gets it. I know I wasn't being cryptic. I think some doesn't want get what I was saying. And would rather pick it apart in petty ways totally going past the point.

phoenixboy70 · Nov 4, 2004, 04:34 AM

Originally posted by Kilbey:
It's a good thing it's your opinion and not the truth.

sorry, unless you discount all statistics and accounts of history, that pretty much is the truth.

phoenixboy70 · Nov 4, 2004, 04:38 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
It's a human emotion. Humans do it. Religion cannot.

yup. just like fascism, racism etc. they're actually all great things, but humans tend to abuse them...

/counterspin

MilkmanDan · Nov 4, 2004, 05:11 AM

Every crime involves some sort of hate. When will people realize that.

Unless, by some chance, you're completely wacky insane. In which case insanity is bliss.

Gankdawg · Nov 4, 2004, 09:45 AM

Originally posted by simonjames:
No guns no massacres

Ignorance at it's best.

Kilbey · Nov 4, 2004, 12:14 PM

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:
sorry, unless you discount all statistics and accounts of history, that pretty much is the truth.

Got some statistics to back up your opinion?

phoenixboy70 · Nov 4, 2004, 12:49 PM

Originally posted by Kilbey:
Got some statistics to back up your opinion?

linky

Fyre4ce · Nov 4, 2004, 01:11 PM

This is why I don't like hate crime legislation. I don't think it should be up to the government to make moral judgments about why a crime was committed, not to mention it's generally more difficult to prove. It's not like there's a strict menu for the penalties associated with specific crimes anyway. Judges and juries frequently almost always consider the details and circumstances of a crime when assigning a verdict or a sentence. I'm sure if evidence is presented that "hate" was a motivation behind the crime, the judge or jury would take that into account, but I certainly don't think it should be written into the statute.

Zimphire · Nov 4, 2004, 03:09 PM

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:
yup. just like fascism, racism etc. they're actually all great things, but humans tend to abuse them...

/counterspin

Wow to compare religion to either of those must have given you whiplash.

Thing is, just viewing this forum. The hate isn't coming from the religious.

It's not the Christians that are being hateful in this forum.

What is that?

phoenixboy70 · Nov 4, 2004, 03:25 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Wow to compare religion to either of those must have given you whiplash.

how so? they're all three ideologies. what you chose to believe makes no difference. to claim it has no affect an what you do, otoh, is nothing less than completely dishonest b.s.!

Originally posted by Zimphire:
It's not the Christians that are being hateful in this forum.

What is that?

a lie?

/ as usual

Zimphire · Nov 4, 2004, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:
how so? they're all three ideologies.

Christianity is a way of life.

what you chose to believe makes no difference. to claim it has no affect an what you do, otoh, is nothing less than completely dishonest b.s.!

No, they just aren't comparable in nature.

a lie?

/ as usual

Some of you really need to look up what the word "lie" means.

Kilbey · Nov 4, 2004, 06:06 PM

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:
linky

Weak. Really weak. You post a site a bit biased you think?

I see most of the "facts" from that site cited hate crimes toward Christians. How ironic of you to have posted that.

UnixMac · Nov 4, 2004, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
It's a human emotion. Humans do it. Religion cannot.

I however, feel no hatred or hate anyone.

I have however felt hatred before.

Make more sense?

Wha? When did I say anyone accused me of hating? When did I even mention you?

Read above. I think you need to take your own advice.

See, someone gets it. I know I wasn't being cryptic. I think some doesn't want get what I was saying. And would rather pick it apart in petty ways totally going past the point. [/B]

your post count is nothing less than amazing! Glad you're a Republican!

Zimphire · Nov 4, 2004, 06:22 PM

Originally posted by UnixMac:
your post count is nothing less than amazing! Glad you're a Republican!

phoenixboy70 · 06:45 AM

Originally posted by Kilbey:
Weak. Really weak. You post a site a bit biased you think?

hey, your turn. got something that proves most hate crimes weren't caused by, or involved, some kind of religion? or maybe something that disproves the claims made on that site?

hell, and those are just the recent ones...just about every war in the middle ages at least "had to do" with religion...

Originally posted by Kilbey:
I see most of the "facts" from that site cited hate crimes toward Christians. How ironic of you to have posted that.

why? i said "religion", not "christianity". or do you actually want to claim that christianity isn't just another religion?

phoenixboy70 · Nov 5, 2004, 06:44 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Christianity is a way of life.

errr, so is every other ideology.

Spliffdaddy · Nov 5, 2004, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by Kilbey:
Weak. Really weak. You post a site a bit biased you think?

I see most of the "facts" from that site cited hate crimes toward Christians. How ironic of you to have posted that.

*SMACKDOWN*

Stradlater · Nov 5, 2004, 12:36 PM

Isn't it SWG? What's the "F" stand for?

DeathMan · Nov 5, 2004, 01:42 PM

fag. pretty low brow, but swg is about as out as you get, so I don't think he takes it personally.

Stradlater · Nov 5, 2004, 01:43 PM

Originally posted by DeathMan:
fag.

With the topic in mind, that's rather hateful, no?

Originally posted by Zimphire:
SWF, if that was the case...

DeathMan · Nov 5, 2004, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:
hey, your turn. got something that proves most hate crimes weren't caused by, or involved, some kind of religion? or maybe something that disproves the claims made on that site?

I'd say in this case, the burden of proof would be on the person making the (probably unprovable and unsubstantiated) claim.

DeathMan · Nov 5, 2004, 01:48 PM

Originally posted by Stradlater:
With the topic in mind, that's rather hateful, no?

oh, you were making a point. I think its more along the lines of taking a cheap shot at your adversary more than a hateful remark. Politically correct? Definitely not. Hateful? I don't know, but I don't think SWG and Zimphire actually hate each other. Is saying *fag* sort of like saying *nigga* you can only say it if you consider yourself to be one?

Stradlater · Nov 5, 2004, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by DeathMan:
oh, you were making a point. I think its more along the lines of taking a cheap shot at your adversary more than a hateful remark. Politically correct? Definitely not. Hateful? I don't know, but I don't think SWG and Zimphire actually hate each other. Is saying *fag* sort of like saying *nigga* you can only say it if you consider yourself to be one?

All valid remarks; I just think of the word itself, though, which carries a long history of hate.

scaught · Nov 5, 2004, 02:16 PM

i dont know why they dont just lock down the lounge entirely.

this type of discourse is the most prevalent here, and the absolutely least useful. not a shred of honesty or integrity to it.

Zimphire · Nov 5, 2004, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by Stradlater:
Isn't it SWG? What's the "F" stand for?

Star Wars Fan. *shrug*

I've heard it both ways.