[Graviton]

I think we might be getting Jesus mixed up with Ozzy Osbourne circa 1982

Unless Ozzy's the second coming, of course.

[Rumor]

Ozzy couldn't be the second coming, he never had a beard.

I'm so going to get a infraction for these comments.

[Graviton]

In that case, It's probably Zakk Wylde.

[Dakarʒ]

Damn, they locked that other thread fast.

[Laminar]

Yeah, I had just finished typing "Where's design219 when you need him" and went to post and it was closed. At least we got three good replies in.

[Dakarʒ]

I had a better reply coming up. Now I'll have to wait for another special occasion.

[Laminar]

"Shut your whore mouth when men are talking."

[Laminar]

edit: *I don't know how to post*

[Dakarʒ]

Something new.

[Graviton]

The moderators smote him.

[Rumor]

Google cache didn't even catch it.

[OldManMac]

Looks like they "protested," and had little to no affect. Only a few showed up, and they left before the funeral. It looks like they didn't need an "ass kickin'" after all. They are irrelevant.

http://www.365gay.com/Newscon07/05/052207falwell.htm

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Graviton 

If the Bible were clear then there wouldn't be so much sectarianism.

As I said, it's all down to how much of the Bible you think is literal, allegory, poetry and a reflection of the political beliefs and social attitudes of a less enlightened age.

Results vary.

It all depends on really how much you are willing to justify certain things actually.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Graviton 

To pretend otherwise is to show your ignorance (or denial. I'm not sure, I don't know you).

The modern idea of "the Bible as a whole" is not the same as past attitudes of "the Bible as a whole". Modern Christian attitudes are a reflection of modern society, just as the attitudes of a more violent age influenced how Christianity was expressed in the past. 100 years ago everybody on this board would have been a racist, a thousand years ago we would have killed in the name of God. The moral Zeitgeist changes. Even "Christian beliefs" have never been a static unchanging thing.

There are Muslims that argue the very same thing about Islam that you are arguing about Christianity. Think about it.

there will always be fence riders and 'modern christians"

since Christianity's inception. nothing new.

[mrtew]

Originally Posted by red rocket 

I have to say, your signature doesn't strike me as mourning the World Trade Center. It seems to suggest that if it weren't for religion, 9/11 wouldn't have happened. Do you really believe that is the case?

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? I thought EVERYone would at least agree that the destruction of the WTC was caused by religious wackos! I guess there's probably nothing that can be agreed on at this point. And you're even an atheist I assume. What could make people behave that hatefully besides religion I have to ask.

Oh nevemind.....

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by Graviton 

People who pretend that the inquisitors and the knights of the Crusades were not 'Real Christians' crack me up. Ever heard of the 'No true Scotsman' fallacy?

They had Biblical references to back up their violence, just as Islamic extremists have Quaranic references to back up theirs. This is pretty well documented stuff. Both Islam and Christian moderates use the arguments of 'context', 'interpretation' and 'translation' to argue against the violent and extreme members of their faith. The witch burners of the past truly believed that they should not "suffer a witch to live", whether you think that a 'misunderstanding' or 'out of context', they truly believed that they were doing their Christian duty.

The expression of Christianity back then was not the same as the expression of Christianity today, the moral Zeitgeist changes, but they were still Christians. Those people lived and died by their religion, far more committed than the happy clappy feel-good hobbyists of today. Attitudes have changed, different Biblical references are favoured over others, but that doesn't mean you can whitewash the past.

I personally don't blame religion for all the evils of the mankind. I blame unquestioning dogmatic belief in anything, be it political or religious or whatever.

Well damn you for posting my reply before I got the chance. And probably more eloquent as well.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

I'm going to follow your lead.

Gravitorn, nevermind.

Good old fashioned smackdown.

[Railroader]

Sorry you see it that way erik. In a way, you smackdowned yourself.

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Sorry you see it that way erik. In a way, you smackdowned yourself.

No, he's correct. You were being handed and used my edit as an excuse to stop.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Rumor 

No, he's correct. You were being handed and used my edit as an excuse to stop.

No I wasn't. I used your example as a way to let everyone walk away with a little respect being shown all around.

Reread my posts. Those who disagreed with me didn't fully comprehend what I am saying. It's a shame too. It would have been a good discussion had the comprehension been there.

[- - e r i k - -]

^

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

No I wasn't. I used your example as a way to let everyone walk away with a little respect being shown all around.

Reread my posts. Those who disagreed with me didn't fully comprehend what I am saying. It's a shame too. It would have been a good discussion had the comprehension been there.

Of course they didn't within your eyes. Within the eyes of others it made plenty of sense.

However, you will not admit to anything, so it is a moot point.

[Kevin]

I am not sure anyone wasn't calling them "christians"} as they obviously where. They were human too.

Guess which side screwed up? Since their religion didn't teach such actions...

[Salty]

Why does everyone in the lounge have to be so argumentative?

[design219]

It's what we do. It's who we are.

[design219]

Hey Salty, don't you have any thoughts on this subject? Your perspective would be of interest.

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by Salty 

Why does everyone in the lounge have to be so argumentative?

We've already discussed katanas, how to sharpen them, the Fountain, overlaying classical music to clips of the Fountain, having a girlfriend, dumping said girlfriend and the Secret Garden. What else do we have left to do?

[Salty]

Haha, I watched the documentary on the Phelps and I have to say, it makes sense having seen that. And I think its' ironic because the Phelps are simply the extreme end of where the conservative anti-gay thinking in Christianity gets you. It's the logical conclusion really. Because the God you worship who is arbitrary enough to condemn gay love, is arbitrary enough to never be sure if you're pleasing Him. So you just have to go with trying to pin point proof texts to show why what you're doing isn't sin.
Of course if you realize that there's this progressively revealed mindset, or framework of thinking, that is revealed over time in Scripture, that shows you not only how God is but how He interacts with people, and how we can interact in an honouring way, it gets a lot more clear, and you end up not being able to think like Phelps or I imagine Falwell. Thankfully it's at that point Christianity starts being about love instead of being right.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Salty 

Haha, I watched the documentary on the Phelps and I have to say, it makes sense having seen that. And I think its' ironic because the Phelps are simply the extreme end of where the conservative anti-gay thinking in Christianity gets you. It's the logical conclusion really. Because the God you worship who is arbitrary enough to condemn gay love, is arbitrary enough to never be sure if you're pleasing Him. So you just have to go with trying to pin point proof texts to show why what you're doing isn't sin.
Of course if you realize that there's this progressively revealed mindset, or framework of thinking, that is revealed over time in Scripture, that shows you not only how God is but how He interacts with people, and how we can interact in an honouring way, it gets a lot more clear, and you end up not being able to think like Phelps or I imagine Falwell. Thankfully it's at that point Christianity starts being about love instead of being right.

It's not so much about "breaking rules" as it is trying to justify those rules so you don't feel guilty.

[mrtew]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

It's not so much about "breaking rules" as it is trying to justify those rules so you don't feel guilty.

Kevin's still at that point of always "being right".


Seriously though dude, what would you do if you were gay, aside from feeling guilty?

[Dakarʒ]

Huh?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by mrtew 

Kevin's still at that point of always "being right".

I am at no point I assure you. This chair is comfy and not pointy at all.

Seriously though dude, what would you do if you were gay, aside from feeling guilty?

The same thing I would do if I were heterosexual I guess. If i were gay I would be in no different "position" in life. Just because a person is gay doesn't mean he is any better or worse than anyone else. Just because I am heterosexual doesn't mean I am more "blessed"

We are all on the same boat. I have my own "demons" if you will to deal with. We ALL do.

Why people single out ONE sin over the others as if it were different or worse is beyond me.

As far as if I do wrong do I feel guilty? Sure thing. So we all should. When one makes a habit however of self deluding that what they are doing isn't bad so they WONT feel guilty, such guilty feelings go away within time.

This is how people do bad things to other people and it not effect them. We call them sociopaths.

Once you stop listening to the voice or conscience in your head, I feel it stops talking to you altogether.

When we wonder how someone can be so cruel, or inhumane to someone else, etc. This is how. From years of self deluding.

The slippery slope.

[mrtew]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

The same thing I would do if I were heterosexual I guess. If i were gay I would be in no different "position" in life. Just because a person is gay doesn't mean he is any better or worse than anyone else. Just because I am heterosexual doesn't mean I am more "blessed"
We are all on the same boat. I have my own "demons" if you will to deal with. We ALL do.
Why people single out ONE sin over the others as if it were different or worse is beyond me.

You didn't tell me what you'd do though. Just pretend you were straight and hope nobody finds out what's inside you? Tell me.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Salty 

Of course if you realize that there's this progressively revealed mindset, or framework of thinking, that is revealed over time in Scripture, that shows you not only how God is but how He interacts with people, and how we can interact in an honouring way, it gets a lot more clear, and you end up not being able to think like Phelps or I imagine Falwell. Thankfully it's at that point Christianity starts being about love instead of being right.

I like what you're saying here.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by mrtew 

You didn't tell me what you'd do though. Just pretend you were straight and hope nobody finds out what's inside you? Tell me.

I did tell you. I said I would live my life the same way I do now. There is no difference. I am not above people just because I am heterosexual.

I am straight now, and I am no better than any homosexual out there. And I am a sinner. No worse than any homosexual out there. Being homosexual doesn't somehow put you in a special sin "level" that I wasn't already in the the day I was held accountable for my actions.

What differentiates say a homosexual Christian and a homosexual atheist is, one believes certain actions are wrong. And if he or she does them, they still see them as wrong. And ask for forgiveness hoping not to do it again earnestly.

Someone that is not a Christians feels they are doing nothing wrong, therefore feel no need to ask forgiveness.

Sometimes the two examples get mixed up.

I would think say, someone with ADD would have more of a problem with "sin" than someone that was Gay.

Someone with ADD or ADHD has impulse problems of doing things without thinking them out.
But they are too held accountable for actions.

I think God knows the difference between actions we do that we cannot help, and those we had perfect choice to not do. The reasonings behind them effect it I am sure.

Attempting to justify actions in order to not feel guilty about them however is probably worse and more damaging than the "sin" itself.

In Christian terms that is.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by analogika 

I like what you're saying here.

And he is right. It is about love. But that doesn't suddenly make wrong doings ok. We reap what we sew regardless.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

We reap what we sew regardless.

Using a scythe to open stitches is a bit overkill, no?

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

We reap what we sew regardless.

Hint; it's sow. Do attempt proper word usage.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

And he is right. It is about love. But that doesn't suddenly make wrong doings ok. We reap what we sew regardless.

No, it doesn't make wrong doings ok.

But it does change what is seen as right and what is seen as wrong.

Graviton made that point quite eloquently earlier. Either you agree, or Salty is not "right", as you just said, because that is exactly the essence of what he is saying.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by KarlG 

Hint; it's sow. Do attempt proper word usage.

You know I had sow in there at first. But I kept thinking "pig"

But anyhow "pwnt"

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by analogika 

No, it doesn't make wrong doings ok.

But it does change what is seen as right and what is seen as wrong.

Love does? How so? And is it not possible to love, and see wrong doing at the same time?

Graviton made that point quite eloquently earlier. Either you agree, or Salty is not "right", as you just said, because that is exactly the essence of what he is saying.

I said Salty was right about the love part. What I said doesn't take away from it.

[TomR]

Originally Posted by design219 

A pdf press release: http://www.godhatesfags.com/fliers/m...ll-funeral.pdf

It seems Phelps hate has no limits. This should make the spectacle spectacular!

That group (read CULT) is just so F'd up in the head. I HATE religion anyway. It just screws up EVERYTHING IMHO. They should arrest the adults just for screwing up the kids heads....

Tom

[mrtew]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

I did tell you. I said I would live my life the same way I do now. There is no difference. I am not above people just because I am heterosexual. I am straight now, and I am no better than any homosexual out there. And I am a sinner. No worse than any homosexual out there. Being homosexual doesn't somehow put you in a special sin "level" that I wasn't already in the the day I was held accountable for my actions. What differentiates say a homosexual Christian and a homosexual atheist is, one believes certain actions are wrong. And if he or she does them, they still see them as wrong. And ask for forgiveness hoping not to do it again earnestly. Someone that is not a Christians feels they are doing nothing wrong, therefore feel no need to ask forgiveness. Sometimes the two examples get mixed up.
I would think say, someone with ADD would have more of a problem with "sin" than someone that was Gay. Someone with ADD or ADHD has impulse problems of doing things without thinking them out. But they are too held accountable for actions. I think God knows the difference between actions we do that we cannot help, and those we had perfect choice to not do. The reasonings behind them effect it I am sure. Attempting to justify actions in order to not feel guilty about them however is probably worse and more damaging than the "sin" itself.
In Christian terms that is.

Can you be more clear please? Are you saying that you would sleep with men and then feel guilty about it and pray and promise not to do it again and get forgiven and then do it again? Or are you saying you would keep living as a heterosexual and pray to be forgiven for your sins?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by mrtew 

Can you be more clear please? Are you saying that you would sleep with men and then feel guilty about it and pray and promise not to do it again and get forgiven and then do it again?

That isn't what I am doing now, so now I don't think I'd do that. Then again I've never been gay so I really don't know what I'd have done. Surely since I wasn't always a Christian I would have had gay sex sometime in my life. But I think you are missing my point.

The point is, I right now am in the same position any homosexual or heterosexual is. We are ALL on the same boat on equal standings no matter what our sexual preference may be.

Do I think it's possible for homosexuals to go to heaven? YES. Yes I do. They have every chance a heterosexual does.

[mrtew]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

That isn't what I am doing now, so now I don't think I'd do that. Then again I've never been gay so I really don't know what I'd have done. Surely since I wasn't always a Christian I would have had gay sex sometime in my life. But I think you are missing my point.

The point is, I right now am in the same position any homosexual or heterosexual is. We are ALL on the same boat on equal standings no matter what our sexual preference may be.

Do I think it's possible for homosexuals to go to heaven? YES. Yes I do. They have every chance a heterosexual does.

The only point I'm getting is that you are avoiding the question. A "homosexual" has fewer choices according to your religion. Straight people can get married and recieve the blessing of the church for your sexual acts. Gay people have to live a lie to do that and never know happiness. Their only other choice is to reject or rewrite religion (as Salty has done) and marry a guy. Right? So stop saying that you are the same as a gay guy. Your life is blessed and his is damned. How is he going to go to heaven anyway? By marrying a guy and praying his whole life for forgiveness from Jesus for his 'sin'. Tell me. And please don't repeat the same crap again I hear it the first three times. Answer my question instead.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Love does? How so? And is it not possible to love, and see wrong doing at the same time?

I said Salty was right about the love part. What I said doesn't take away from it.

No, but what he said does for those who disagree with the rest.

And he's right.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by mrtew 

The only point I'm getting is that you are avoiding the question.

In each rebuttal I've shown where I wasn't avoiding the question. Maybe I wasn't giving you the answer you wanted or were digging for. That isn't the same thing. But I did indeed validly answer the question. I didn't dodge it. What probably went on was, you had answers for two different ways you believed I was going to answer it. And since I didn't pick either way, you got stumped. And are now demanding me to answer it again. This time in a way you can "paste" in a response you have ready. That doesn't matter to me. I answer it the most honest way I can. If you don't like that way, I really don't know what to tell you. You'll just have to get over it. My response was valid. We just see things differently.

A "homosexual" has fewer choices according to your religion. Straight people can get married and recieve the blessing of the church for your sexual acts. Gay people have to live a lie to do that and never know happiness.

How do you know what causes happiness? BTW Happiness is fleeting. It's Joy that we should seek. Married or being with someone wont make you joyful if you weren't already. So your statement that Gay people can never know happiness is a baseless one.

Their only other choice is to reject or rewrite religion (as Salty has done) and marry a guy. Right?

Or live with it the best you can, and not attempt to justify your actions when/if you do mess up.

Not comparing the act of homosexual sex to pedophiliac sex when make this comparison. But pedos can't control who they are attracted to either. Is it any less horrid for them not to be happy or enjoy life because they cannot go through it with someone they love?

Life isn't fair. I can't hear out of my right ear. Born that way. I have impulsivity problems that would cause me to make bad judgments in life sometimes. ITS not FAIR!

But it is life.

So stop saying that you are the same as a gay guy.

I wont stop saying such a thing. Because I am. Now you may not understand what I mean when I say that, but I assure you that when I say it, it is indeed valid.

Your life is blessed and his is damned.

Because he is gay? No. You haven't been paying attention. Him being homosexual does not make his life damned any more than me being hetero does.

How is he going to go to heaven anyway?

The way everyone else on this planet goes. Again, he is no different. He doesn't have to get a special hall pass cause he is gay.

By marrying a guy and praying his whole life for forgiveness from Jesus for his 'sin'. Tell me.

It's not me to judge that. Though if he is doing such a thing above and it being a sin, and he tries to justify it then I doubt he is heading in the right direction. But this doesn't just effect homosexuals. It effects everyone the same way.

And please don't repeat the same crap again I hear it the first three times. Answer my question instead.

I did answer your question every time you've ask it. Saying otherwise is dishonest. Or you just didn't get what I was saying. I am going to be a nice guy and give you the latter of the doubt.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by analogika 

No, but what he said does for those who disagree with the rest.

What he said does for those who disagree with the rest of what analog? Lets be a bit more clear here please.

For us slow folks.

[- - e r i k - -]

Homosexuals are the most joyous people I've met, so you might be onto something with the Joy-thing

BTW, what is up with the capitalised words? Are they demi-gods?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Homosexuals are the most joyous people I've met, so you might be onto something with the Joy-thing

They act more gay than joyful....


I keeed I kiiieed.