[drainyoo]

Who else agrees with me?

If you think about it, they just use it at random. It started with Quicktime and now its a mess. Why does Safari have it and Mail doesnt? I started thinking that maybe all the iApps have the brushed metal but then Safari isnt an iApp. And now they made the Finder in Panther brushed metal which just seems weird. Its just too random. They need to make it consistent, there has to be a reason why an App is brushed metal.

Honestly I cant stand the brushed metal, thats why my Jag is demetalized.

I would love to hear what everyone thinks.

Discuss.

[mitchell_pgh]

I kind of like it... I think it looks nice...

[DBvader]

its really not that big of an issue for me. as long as im productive with the system, one really good looking thing over another is just a small trifle.

i hated BM in safari, and now i just got used to it, so it doesnt matter. i think it looks and works on a lot better than camino.

panthers finder is amazing, so i wouldnt worry about how it looks

[BurpetheadX]

I agree with you. I absolutley hate brushed, and since its so inconsistant i cant stand it even more. Panther is horrible. One window will by thier new graphite aqua, the menu bar is still original aqua, and then the finder is brushed. Pick a theme and stick with it Apple!

[drainyoo]

Originally posted by DBvader:
its really not that big of an issue for me. as long as im productive with the system, one really good looking thing over another is just a small trifle.

i hated BM in safari, and now i just got used to it, so it doesnt matter. i think it looks and works on a lot better than camino.

panthers finder is amazing, so i wouldnt worry about how it looks

I dont mind it in the system but they need to figure out what apps get it and what dont. We all know Apple is about simplicity so why cant they make this simple.

[mdc]

when i first played with osX in the shops i liked brushed metal. then i got my ibook. and did not like it at all and demetalized everything i could. i gave my system a fresh install last week and have not bothered to install demetalizer and i have actually come to like the brushed metal look.

no offence to max, his themes are very good. but i do really dislike the look of the brushed metal theme. the way that everything, even the menu bar, is brushed. i think that is going too far in the brushed metal look and hope that panther does not go this route.

a happy medium is good. like in panther how the menu bar and some apps, such as utilities, etc are still aqua. but then others, which, mistake me if i am wrong, but it seems that the apps without draws are metal. it is 2:30am, so my memory might be failing me. but it seems that apps that have a main window for the interface are metal. address book, calculator, safari, itunes, etc, etc. but then mail with it's draw is still aqua.

i don't know, maybe i am missing how apple is deciding on which apps get metal and which get aqua.

just not too much please.

[Dale Sorel]

Originally posted by mdc:
a happy medium is good.

From the looks of it, that is where Apple is headed with Panther (I think)

[Cipher13]

I hate BM.

Truly.

The only place Apple has used it where it seems appropriate is iTunes, and maybe iCal.

[active]

I'm the other way around, preferring to metalize my apps.

However, I noticed that the Panther Mail is still Aqua? So, why is Finder now metal and Mail is still Aqua? Makes no sense..

Chris.

Originally posted by drainyoo:
Who else agrees with me?

Honestly I cant stand the brushed metal, thats why my Jag is demetalized.

I would love to hear what everyone thinks.

Discuss.

[Tsilou B.]

The Panther Aqua Interface Guidelines say that applications should be brushed metal if they resemble real world devices (like Quicktime Player), interact with them (like iSync) or use the playlist metaphor.

So that last thing is why Safari and the new Finder are metal, they have some kind of "playlist" on the left.

This last paragraph wasn't in the Jaguar interface guidelines, however. It's new in Panther.

[drainyoo]

Originally posted by active:
I'm the other way around, preferring to metalize my apps.

However, I noticed that the Panther Mail is still Aqua? So, why is Finder now metal and Mail is still Aqua? Makes no sense..

Chris.

Exactly!

[drainyoo]

Originally posted by Tsilou B.:
The Panther Aqua Interface Guidelines say that applications should be brushed metal if they resemble real world devices (like Quicktime Player), interact with them (like iSync) or use the playlist metaphor.

So that last thing is why Safari and the new Finder are metal, they have some kind of "playlist" on the left.

This last paragraph wasn't in the Jaguar interface guidelines, however. It's new in Panther.

Well what about the Mail app? You interact with that, its has a drawer to the left.

[Boochie]

I think the guideline means that the *application* interacts with a real-world device.

Sounds to me like they're re-writing the human/machine interface guidelines to suit the whims of Steve Jobs and/or the developers, as opposed to some rational basis in usability or appearance.

Originally posted by drainyoo:
Well what about the Mail app? You interact with that, its has a drawer to the left.

[superfula]

I really don't see how Apple isn't sticking to their guidelines.

Where do you keep your physical files and papers? In a filing cabinet. I'm guessing the Finder is supposed to mimic a metal filing cabinet (like itunes mimics a physical player).

Mail.app has a drawer, but it doesn't use the playlist idea. Safari uses it with the bookmarks pane.

[Simon]

I like BM, so I wouldn't mind them going BM 100%.

But, I'd rather have them go 100% Aqua than mix the two.

The OS should have one consistent GUI. Not two major ones and some do-it-yourself-crap to go with it.

That's windows.

This is the Mac. We like things to be nice. We want stuff done right. We have style.

[Uncle Skeleton]

I don't use windows that much, so maybe someone can enlighten me....where does windows have two major gui's? I know you can choose different themes for XP, but that's different

[Simon]

Originally posted by Uncle Skeleton:
I don't use windows that much, so maybe someone can enlighten me....where does windows have two major gui's? I know you can choose different themes for XP, but that's different

I was aiming at the fact that under Windows many apps have custom UIs and that the stupid player app can have about a dozen different appearances.

[OwlBoy]

Oh sheeesh, they just use it where they think it looks good. (Some things just look better in brushed, I am not saying one persons optinion will match everyone else's)

-Owl

[Boochie]

Equating the Finder to a physical filing cabinet for the purpose of rationalizing the BM may be stretching the metaphor.

I think at this point they're just using it wherever they feel like it, and modifying the HMI guidelines as needed to encompass the new usage. It's an ass-backwards way to do it and Apple should (and once did) know better.

Originally posted by superfula:
I really don't see how Apple isn't sticking to their guidelines.

Where do you keep your physical files and papers? In a filing cabinet. I'm guessing the Finder is supposed to mimic a metal filing cabinet (like itunes mimics a physical player).

Mail.app has a drawer, but it doesn't use the playlist idea. Safari uses it with the bookmarks pane.

[superfula]

Originally posted by Boochie:
Equating the Finder to a physical filing cabinet for the purpose of rationalizing the BM may be stretching the metaphor.

I think at this point they're just using it wherever they feel like it, and modifying the HMI guidelines as needed to encompass the new usage. It's an ass-backwards way to do it and Apple should (and once did) know better.

No it's not. The filing cabinet is where people organize all their paper files and documents. Thus, the finder is the equivalent. Under their own guidelines, it SHOULD be brushed metal.

People like to complain about things when they don't like something. And instead of just saying "I don't like it", they are claiming Apple goes against the guidelines...which they don't.

[Boochie]

Historically the metaphor of "physical devices" has applied to interactive electronic items such as PDAs, MP3 players, DVD/multimedia players, and so on. It is a stretch from the established usage (which struck me as arbitrary anyway) to make a connection between elements of a computer UI and a piece of furniture.

To address your second point, I plainly don't like the brushed metal. Apple set the gold standard for uniformity and consistency in UI design. People like Don Norman are giants in my book. Whether or not the particular design elements in the Panther preview are consistent with a set of "evolving" guidelines is beside the point, in my opinion. Apple is detracting from one of the key aspects of the user experience that made their product so wonderful to use. That is unfortunate. Will it stop me from upgrading to Panther? No, but it doesn't mean that I have to like the brushed metal kool-aid either.

Originally posted by superfula:
No it's not. The filing cabinet is where people organize all their paper files and documents. Thus, the finder is the equivalent. Under their own guidelines, it SHOULD be brushed metal.

People like to complain about things when they don't like something. And instead of just saying "I don't like it", they are claiming Apple goes against the guidelines...which they don't.

[drainyoo]

Originally posted by Boochie:
Historically the metaphor of "physical devices" has applied to interactive electronic items such as PDAs, MP3 players, DVD/multimedia players, and so on. It is a stretch from the established usage (which struck me as arbitrary anyway) to make a connection between elements of a computer UI and a piece of furniture.

To address your second point, I plainly don't like the brushed metal. Apple set the gold standard for uniformity and consistency in UI design. People like Don Norman are giants in my book. Whether or not the particular design elements in the Panther preview are consistent with a set of "evolving" guidelines is beside the point, in my opinion. Apple is detracting from one of the key aspects of the user experience that made their product so wonderful to use. That is unfortunate. Will it stop me from upgrading to Panther? No, but it doesn't mean that I have to like the brushed metal kool-aid either.

Well said.

Im not bitching about BM, even thought Im not crazy about it. Im just saying there needs to be a logical method in which they use it.

[superfula]

According to the guidelines, they mention "devices". It doesn't say they have to be electronic devices. They may not stack up against what YOU want in a gui, but a BM finder goes perfectly with the guidelines apple provides.

[Michel Fortin]

The Panther Aqua Interface Guidelines say that applications should be brushed metal if they resemble real world devices (like Quicktime Player), interact with them (like iSync) or use the playlist metaphor.

Ok, lets apply the guideline and make a list of applications that qualifies for Metal:

Quicktime - Looks like a tv.
iTunes - Has parts that looks like an sound system and interacts with CDs and portable mp3 devices, and use the playlist metaphor.
iCal - Use the playlist metaphor.
iPhoto - Use the playlist metaphor.
iMovie - Looks like a tv.
iDVD - Looks like a tv.
Address Book - Interact with Bluethout phones.
iSync - Interact with many devices.
iChat - Contact "Playlist"? Now interact with cameras and microphones.
Safari - Bookmark "playlist"
Finder - Interact with hot-plugable hard drives, zip and others. Now use a "playlist".
Safari - "Playlist" bookmarks.
Mail - "Playlist" mailboxes.
Preview - "Playlist" page list.
Xcode - "Playlist" file list.
Keynote - Interact with projectors.
Image Capture - Interact with scanners, cameras.
Airport Admin - Interact with Base Station.
Key Caps - Look like a keyboard.
Print Center - Interact with printers.
Apple System Profiler - List all present hardware.
...

Well, my point is that almost any application could now qualify to the "should be brushed metal". If Apple was for consistency, it would make clear what should be metal and what should not in the guidelines. I think they are indeed changing the guidelines to accomodate their own taste.

I'm not against brushed metal, but I'm all for consistency.

[teknologika]

What about third party apps ? It is as simple as a single checkbox to enable or disable brushed metal (Project builder refers to it as "textured").

When should a third party developer use it ?

Should a developer release two different versions, one with and one without, just to keep everyone happy ?

[dawho9]

Originally posted by teknologika:

Should a developer release two different versions, one with and one without, just to keep everyone happy ?

No, they should release one version with a checkbox in the preferences allowing you to choose which one.

I personally like the BM look in some apps, however I have to agree. Go one way or the other with it. I do believe mail to break apples own design theory's.

dw9

[Mike S.]

I like both Aqua and Textured so it makes no difference to me.

Let the developers put whatever of the two on the products that they think works.

Guidelines are not law, they are suggestions and let's face it Apple doesn't exactly follow their own guidelines all the time so why should anyone else?

Just thank third parties for coming up with ways to let you change things to suit your tastes.

Wow, those are some fragmented thoughts :-P

[eevyl]

It is not only a thing of taste. The brushed metal interface has a lot of major design flaws.

First, inactive windows are almost imposible to tell apart from active ones. The only way to identify them are the window widgets, and they can be overlapped by active or inactive windows in front of it. Having several brushed metal windows opened at once is a big big mess.

Sometimes you can drag the window from any brushed part of the window, sometimes you do not, sometimes you try to drag the window and clic on a widget... again a little mess.

The Aqua sheets looks really out of place when coming inside a brushed metal window, and it also looks like

I do like the brushed metal "look", but in its current UI form is not finished, not the level of quality I expect from Apple.

[Boochie]

Exactly! Make the design guidelines squishy enough, and any application can take on any GUI metaphor. Then you end up with a mish-mash of different looking windows, some metal, some not, with no explicit rationale that is visible to the casual observer.

Originally posted by Michel Fortin:
Ok, lets apply the guideline and make a list of applications that qualifies for Metal:

...

Well, my point is that almost any application could now qualify to the "should be brushed metal". If Apple was for consistency, it would make clear what should be metal and what should not in the guidelines. I think they are indeed changing the guidelines to accomodate their own taste.

I'm not against brushed metal, but I'm all for consistency.

[Boochie]

Quite so. Your observations amplify my point of diminishing the user experience that has made the Macintosh such an easy platform to use. As Michel Fortin noted in another post, it's reached the point where one could justify Brushed Metal for just about any application, which would become a horrid indistinct mess on the screen. This gets in the way of using your computer!

Originally posted by eevyl:
It is not only a thing of taste. The brushed metal interface has a lot of major design flaws.

First, inactive windows are almost imposible to tell apart from active ones. The only way to identify them are the window widgets, and they can be overlapped by active or inactive windows in front of it. Having several brushed metal windows opened at once is a big big mess.

Sometimes you can drag the window from any brushed part of the window, sometimes you do not, sometimes you try to drag the window and clic on a widget... again a little mess.

The Aqua sheets looks really out of place when coming inside a brushed metal window, and it also looks like

I do like the brushed metal "look", but in its current UI form is not finished, not the level of quality I expect from Apple.

[Boochie]

From dictionary.com:

device: A contrivance or an invention serving a particular purpose, especially a machine used to perform one or more relatively simple tasks.

Calling a filing cabinet a device is a stretch. At any rate, the guidelines are flawed from a usability and UI standpoint.

Originally posted by superfula:
According to the guidelines, they mention "devices". It doesn't say they have to be electronic devices. They may not stack up against what YOU want in a gui, but a BM finder goes perfectly with the guidelines apple provides.

[Toyin]

I like BM metal but along with the problems mentioned above there are others as well. I'd prefer that there was some sort of distinction or seperator between the menubar and the toolbar. I've double clicked the top of the toolbar several times thinking the window would minimize and realized I was a millimeter off of the menubar (key offenders Safari, Panther finder). I also like the Safari implementation of brushed metal. I don't like the window to be bordered completely in brushed metal. It takes up space and makes resizing painfully slow.

I'd also like to add my request to consistency. The guidlines are stretched pretty thin. Do all or none, or better yet, use the new Final Cut Pro look for the whole OS.

[arekkusu]

Metal is terrible for a couple of reasons:

The borders waste space. I want two put two quicktime players next to each other, but there's a big band of metal border between them.

The titlebar has no divider, sheets appear out of nothing. And it doesn't go translucent when the window is inactive.

It's slower to resize than regular Aqua-- there are two layers drawn, the brushed metal texture and a grey highlight gradient that is stretched horizontally.



If you want to tell Apple how you feel, go to the OS X feedback page:
http://www.apple.com/macosx/feedback/

They have an option for 10.3 Developer Preview so you can comment on screenshots of Panther, if you want.

[dividend]

Happy to see other people complain about metall. One of the charms with Mac OS was that it seemed to be a lot more streamlined and consistent. Consistency is important not only because I happen to be a philosopher and hate arbitrary ideas and inconsistent arguing, but because it is part of muscle-memory. If a widget is always on the same place, then you learn faster were it is and become faster a more productive worker.

Colour and form has similar properties in this regard; it is well known (and has been in philosophy for centuries) that similar things should also look similar. By this way one needs to think one thing less, which means, again, faster learning. I am not really sure that a good argument can be put forth for saying that apps that "interact ..." should look differently - don't ALL windows interact with the computer, which is ....!?

One should of course realise that it is one thing whether an app should be metall, and an other whether metall is better than aqua. I don't like metall, but I prefer that everything is metall (including the top-bar, the dock (awful), finder, mail, contextual-menus etc) rather than an inconsistent irrational usage that makes me less productive.

What we mean by good interface is a) easy to understand from our cultural background, and b) consitent, meaning as few exceptions to learn as possible.

Metall is Apples way of giving us a new cultural background, I think it is wiser of them drop that. Apple is famous for a consitent and intuitive (i.e. cultural background) UI - with metall they have left that part and become cultural engineers or PR-people.

Besides, one can no longer say that Mac's UI is better because it is so easy to learn and is so consistent. Perhaps it is better than Win, but who would like to compare oneself with that? Mac's UI is simply not as eloquent and refined as it is used to be, it is more of a billboard with notes of different colours and shapes and functions that do not fuse together.

My priorities:

1. Use aqua thru-out
2a. Make a VERY good arguemtn for why some windows should look differenlty, OR
2b. make all metall.

Apple/Steve - do you care?

[pat++]

Time to vote ! The official Brushed Metal Finder poll is here.

[moreno]

again, and again
where's the theme engine... ?
i don't like the TIFF-BASED applications.