Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

Millennium · Jul 2, 2004, 01:29 PM

Apparently, in the wake of security issues uncovered last week, the Department of Homeland Security has issued advice for users of IE/Windows to switch browsers.

Granted, this is nothing that we Mac users didn't know already. But I'm surprised: seems that the DHS has finally issued a statement I can agree with. The Mozilla folks are loving this.

Krypton · Jul 2, 2004, 01:54 PM

I would bet the average Windows user has no idea what the alternatives are anyway...

OptimusG4 · Jul 2, 2004, 01:59 PM

Too bad DHS still uses Windows.

OH-N'omac · Jul 2, 2004, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by Krypton:
I would bet the average Windows user has no idea what the alternatives are anyway...

Right, bucause your average PC user has an IQ of 2 and drags their knuckles on the floor when they walk...just like all mac users love purple and pink, and are too stupid to know what to do with a mouse that has more than one button.

Great time for this announcement to come along...Firefox compares really well with IE at the moment. I've been using it full-time on both my mac and my PCs for months without any problem.

olePigeon · Jul 2, 2004, 02:51 PM

Originally posted by OH-N'omac:
Right, bucause your average PC user has an IQ of 2 and drags their knuckles on the floor when they walk...

No, but Joe Consumer doesn't know any better. I'd say about 1 out 5 Mac users at my work don't know there's a browser other than Internet Explorer. The ratio is probably higher in the Windows world with Grandma buying a "one awesome PC" Dell (or getting suckered into WebTV.)

wolfen · Jul 2, 2004, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by olePigeon:
No, but Joe Consumer doesn't know any better. I'd say about 1 out 5 Mac users at my work don't know there's a browser other than Internet Explorer. The ratio is probably higher in the Windows world with Grandma buying a "one awesome PC" Dell (or getting suckered into WebTV.)

You are correct. I deal with security/spam stuff daily with customers. NONE of them have heard of any other browser except "Netscape...and aren't they out of business, now?"

I am trying to push for installing different browsers, but there's the problem. The company I work for makes more $ fixing spamware than it does replacing IE.

Krypton · Jul 2, 2004, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by olePigeon:
No, but Joe Consumer doesn't know any better.

(Sorry) ^ This is what I meant, and I also agree that most users of any platform won't see the advantage in installing something other than the defaults.

Lateralus · Jul 2, 2004, 03:13 PM

I try to get my PC using friends to switch browsers all the time. None of them are terribly technically adept, but I try to get the point across that their experience with Windows would be much more 'stable' if they switched browsers since Internet Explorer is the root of a huge percentage of crashes.

The most common excuse I get is "I don't have time to learn how to use another browser".

OH-N'omac · Jul 2, 2004, 03:25 PM

Originally posted by wolfen:
You are correct. I deal with security/spam stuff daily with customers. NONE of them have heard of any other browser except "Netscape...and aren't they out of business, now?"

I am trying to push for installing different browsers, but there's the problem. The company I work for makes more $ fixing spamware than it does replacing IE.

You're in a better position to know than I am since it sounds like you're EUS and deal with more people....most of the PC users I talk shop with are pretty savvy about IE being crap, but they're mostly developer/hacker/smarter-than-the-average-bear types.

Krypton, I see what you were getting at now.

PowerMacMan, that's a lame excuse you're being given, its a freakin browser. New softare doesn't get much easier to learn than that.

Krypton · Jul 2, 2004, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by OH-N'omac:

Krypton, I see what you were getting at now.

It's ok - I didn't phrase it very well the first time (by average I meant my friends especially, who though they are bright are fairly clueless about computers on the whole).

In my experience though, even 'tech-literate' people don't always see any need to change their apps. E.g: my Dad insists on using IE for everything, even though I can prove to him that Safari is faster and works with all his sites.

Similarly he didn't switch to OS X until after I'd been using it a few years - in that case, he 'discovered' it from himself - which is maybe how people will switch browsers too.

Lateralus · Jul 2, 2004, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by OH-N'omac:
PowerMacMan, that's a lame excuse you're being given, its a freakin browser. New softare doesn't get much easier to learn than that.

I know.

I'm starting to think friends are not a necessity.

phoenixboy70 · Jul 2, 2004, 03:50 PM

the company i do most of my work for switched to netscape several months ago, due to security reasons.

but everybody else i know who has a pc uses i.e., except for one, who is a web developer, - he uses firefox/mozilla. i wonder why...

itai195 · Jul 2, 2004, 03:56 PM

Our IT organization still only supports IE and Netscape, but hopefully that'll change in the near future. They can't continue to ignore IE's security faults. Personally I've installed Firefox though I'm not supposed to (shh don't tell anyone) and it's great on Windows, and has significantly enhanced my productivity since my job often requires researching information from several different web sites simultaneously.

SOLIDAge · Jul 2, 2004, 07:03 PM

Originally posted by PowerMacMan:
I try to get my PC using friends to switch browsers all the time. None of them are terribly technically adept, but I try to get the point across that their experience with Windows would be much more 'stable' if they switched browsers since Internet Explorer is the root of a huge percentage of crashes.

The most common excuse I get is "I don't have time to learn how to use another browser".

really?
i have switched many people from my father, to my best friend and may in between to use Firefox. All love it and use it and don't look back at IE.

rozwado1 · Jul 2, 2004, 07:36 PM

Originally posted by olePigeon:
No, but Joe Consumer doesn't know any better. I'd say about 1 out 5 Mac users at my work don't know there's a browser other than Internet Explorer. The ratio is probably higher in the Windows world with Grandma buying a "one awesome PC" Dell (or getting suckered into WebTV.)

I have a 'Check for IE' script that I run on some of my pages that begs IE users to d/l Firefox b/c IE won't display my PNGs/CSS/etc properly. I just hope I can switch a handful of people.

Open Fotog INK with IE to see it. I got the script from Monkstyle.

velodev · Jul 2, 2004, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by olePigeon:
No, but Joe Consumer doesn't know any better. I'd say about 1 out 5 Mac users at my work don't know there's a browser other than Internet Explorer. The ratio is probably higher in the Windows world with Grandma buying a "one awesome PC" Dell (or getting suckered into WebTV.)

A co-worker a couple weeks ago asked... "is calculator on that bottom thingeee?"

a) it's called a dock
b) yes

dampeoples · Jul 2, 2004, 08:18 PM

I switched my kids computer to Firefox yesterday, they can now surf barbie.com in peace!

wataru · Jul 2, 2004, 08:22 PM

Originally posted by rozwado1:
I have a 'Check for IE' script that I run on some of my pages that begs IE users to d/l Firefox b/c IE won't display my PNGs/CSS/etc properly. I just hope I can switch a handful of people.

Open Fotog INK with IE to see it. I got the script from Monkstyle.

Is that Dean Edwards's NoIE? I can't get that to work on my site for some reason.

paully dub · Jul 2, 2004, 08:26 PM

I look soooo good right now. A week ago, I got fed up with my Mom, and went "You're switching to Firefox, don't use Explorer- you know the icon with the big blue e. Why? Just trust me, it's safer. Give it a try, it's free, made by hard working developers.." and so on.

I showed it to her, and she liked the tabs and stuck with it. Thank god it works with like the three sites she uses regularly. I sent her the wired article and she promised never to use Explorer again.

Now if she'll just get around to buying that Mac...

fireside · Jul 2, 2004, 09:01 PM

Originally posted by PowerMacMan:
I'm starting to think friends are not a necessity.

well stupid friends aren't a necessity.

fireside · Jul 2, 2004, 09:02 PM

Originally posted by itai195:
Our IT organization still only supports IE and Netscape, but hopefully that'll change in the near future. They can't continue to ignore IE's security faults. Personally I've installed Firefox though I'm not supposed to (shh don't tell anyone) and it's great on Windows, and has significantly enhanced my productivity since my job often requires researching information from several different web sites simultaneously.

technically, when you're using FireFox, you are using Netscape, since they both have the same engine (gecko).

itai195 · Jul 2, 2004, 09:19 PM

Originally posted by fireside:
technically, when you're using FireFox, you are using Netscape, since they both have the same engine (gecko).

Gecko started on Netscape 6 as I recall, not Netscape 4.6, which is what we use. Of course, there's also more to a browser than its rendering engine.

CD Hanks · Jul 2, 2004, 10:14 PM

I've been using Internet Explorer for ages on any PC I use, and I've never had any problems whatsoever. Why? I use my brain.

Unfortunately, most Windows users aren't too computer savvy to begin with, and when you combine that with the fact Microsoft invented ActiveX, you're going to have a shitload of problems.

fireside · Jul 2, 2004, 11:42 PM

Originally posted by itai195:
Gecko started on Netscape 6 as I recall, not Netscape 4.6, which is what we use. Of course, there's also more to a browser than its rendering engine.

Netscape 4.6? what, are you guys crazy?

tooki · Jul 3, 2004, 12:11 AM

Like, um, welcome to 1997.

tooki

itai195 · Jul 3, 2004, 02:35 AM

Originally posted by fireside:
Netscape 4.6? what, are you guys crazy?

Don't ask me, I'm sure they have a reason for it. This company has a lot of very old hardware around, so they always tend to have some legacy software for reasons unknown to me. Actually, it's not the first company I've been at that still uses that old version of Netscape.

tie · Jul 3, 2004, 02:42 AM

I finally switched my PC from IE to Firefox. The motivation was this most recent unpatched, exploited security hole which required disabling scripting. That was just too much. I was quite reluctant to switch because it is a pain, and the only alternative I had heard of was Netscape which was awful bloatware even years ago. I had tried to switch before and ran a google search of "tabbed browser" or something, and just got links to randomly named browsers that didn't sound at all reasonable. This time I went to slashdot, read the article, and saw a pointer to Firefox. Someone had mentioned Thunderfox to me, so I figured this was it. Otherwise, I'd never have known. Marketing Mozilla/Firefox is going to be a big challenge.

Krypton · Jul 3, 2004, 07:09 AM

Originally posted by tie:
Marketing Mozilla/Firefox is going to be a big challenge.

They are working on it - they just haven't quite got the hang of it yet. Even their website doesn't seem to make it explicit that they make Web Browsers.

DeathMan · Jul 3, 2004, 12:21 PM

Originally posted by itai195:
Don't ask me, I'm sure they have a reason for it. This company has a lot of very old hardware around, so they always tend to have some legacy software for reasons unknown to me. Actually, it's not the first company I've been at that still uses that old version of Netscape.

Its possible that they're running some legacy web apps dependent on the <layer> tag.

Which is too bad. I'm sure you could find someone who could port that for you.