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Zimphire · Sep 17, 2004, 02:41 PM

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Oh of course. The murder of Iraqi civilians by US troops isn't big news.

No need to exaggerate LBK.

Muder
The unlawful killing of one human by another, with premeditated malice

Troll · Sep 17, 2004, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:

Not the two news programs I saw. But this isn't really "Big news"

They tend to only report "big news" [/B]

In the UK, your closest ally, it was big enough news to make THE FRONT PAGE. Of course this is big news. 14 people being murdered in a single incident is big news anywhere.

Zimphire · Sep 17, 2004, 02:43 PM

Originally posted by Troll:
In the UK, your closest ally, it was big enough news to make THE FRONT PAGE. Of course this is big news. 14 people being murdered in a single incident is big news anywhere.

Read my post above.

Zimphire · Sep 17, 2004, 02:44 PM

More coverups!

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,132683,00.html

Troll · Sep 17, 2004, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
No need to exaggerate LBK.

Muder
The unlawful killing of one human by another, with premeditated malice

First of all, that is NOT the legal definition of murder. Secondly are you suggesting that it by mistake they made numerous passes killing people that were, inter alia, trying to evacuate the wounded?

lil'babykitten · Sep 17, 2004, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
No need to exaggerate LBK.

Muder
The unlawful killing of one human by another, with premeditated malice

So why was it than whenever an Iraqi went out to help the injured, the black helicopters came back and fired at them?

Murder is exactly what it was. Do you not feel any sadness for those poor children lying mutilated in the streets?

Troll · Sep 17, 2004, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by Troll:
First of all, that is NOT the legal definition of murder. Secondly are you suggesting that it by mistake they made numerous passes killing people that were, inter alia, trying to evacuate the wounded?

I said they were covering up AMERICAN WAR CRIMES. I don't see any reference to American war crimes on Fox.

deedar · Sep 17, 2004, 02:47 PM

This is getting some play over here, although not that much.

(Not exactly on topic, but related to the American press not "showing up" for the continuing war in Iraq.)

Zimphire · Sep 17, 2004, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by Troll:
First of all, that is NOT the legal definition of murder. Secondly are you suggesting that it by mistake they made numerous passes killing people that were, inter alia, trying to evacuate the wounded?

I am saying they never pre-meditated.

Tell me Troll, have you been in the middle of battle before?

Troll · Sep 17, 2004, 02:48 PM

Originally posted by dcolton:
No, I beg to differ. At any rate, lets do it this way...

We fight the war and you guys can cry about war crimes when the smoke is settled. For the Americans...let our militay do its job instead of bitching and complaining every time something negative happens. Unless, of course, you want to see even more Americans come home in body bags.

I don't get it, you bitch about too many American casualties, then you bitch about not enough troops. Now, you want to prevent American forces, the volunteers who put their lives on the line for YOU, from defending themselves. Just burn your flag and move to canada where you and wiskedjak can have a circle jerk while you chant 'give peace a chance'

How killing a guy who's is trying to get his severed-leg-brother to a hospital "doing your job."

I'm complaining about American soldiers NOT doing their job and committing CRIMES.

Zimphire · Sep 17, 2004, 02:48 PM

Originally posted by Troll:
I said they were covering up AMERICAN WAR CRIMES. I don't see any reference to American war crimes on Fox.

I WASN'T JUST TALKING TO YOU TROLL.

Others in here have said the media was ignoring and covering up what was happening in IRAQ.

GET A GRIP.

Zimphire · Sep 17, 2004, 02:50 PM

Originally posted by Troll:
How killing a guy who's is trying to get his severed-leg-brother to a hospital "doing your job."

I'm complaining about American soldiers NOT doing their job and committing CRIMES.

Troll right now none of us REALLY know what went down there. All we have is heresy. So to assume, or make knee-jerk assumptions of "Muder" is asinine.

Get a grip.

Troll · Sep 17, 2004, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I am saying they never pre-meditated.

Tell me Troll, have you been in the middle of battle before?

This was not a battle. A suicide bomber drove into the Bradley and he expired (as suicide bombers do). US soldiers left. HELICOPTERS came back. Those people presented no threat to the helicopter did they?

This was a terrorist attack. I have been in a terrorist attack before. One of the bullets fired went through a guy in front of me's neck and passed through a window 15cm from my head. He died. I can't imagine that anyone would have thought that the law enforcement authorities or army would have been justified in firing missiles at the scene from helicopters afterwards.

Troll · Sep 17, 2004, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Troll right now none of us REALLY know what went down there. All we have is heresy. So to assume, or make knee-jerk assumptions of "Muder" is asinine.

Get a grip.

We have an eye witness account. We know what went down. Helicopters made repeated passes killing wounded people and people trying to get away.

PS It's hearsay - heresy is something entirely different

Troll · Sep 17, 2004, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I WASN'T JUST TALKING TO YOU TROLL.

Others in here have said the media was ignoring and covering up what was happening in IRAQ.

GET A GRIP.

Okay, apologies.

Zimphire · Sep 17, 2004, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by Troll:
This was not a battle. A suicide bomber drove into the Bradley and he expired (as suicide bombers do). US soldiers left. HELICOPTERS came back. Those people presented no threat to the helicopter did they?

How did they know? Again, Have you been in the middle of an ATTACK or Battle?

I've heard many stories from Vet's that claim in the middle of an attack, panic sets in. There had been times when soldiers would attack EACH OTHER because of said panic.

Troll · Sep 17, 2004, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:

How did they know? [/B]

They fired missiles into the Bradley. I should damn well hope they knew their soldiers were out of there before they did that!

Zimphire · Sep 17, 2004, 03:01 PM

Read the rest of my post.

BlueSky · Sep 17, 2004, 03:02 PM

Pardon me, we interrupt this thread for your daily dose of happy dust:

We now return you to your normally scheduled battle.

Zimphire · Sep 17, 2004, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by Bluesky:
Pardon me, we interrupt this thread for your daily dose of happy dust:

Druggy.

BlueSky · Sep 17, 2004, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Druggy.

PacHead · Sep 17, 2004, 03:06 PM

Perhaps some Iraqis need to learn parenting 101.

(1) If there is fighting-military action taking place, don't let your kids go around dancing outside in the middle of the action. Chances are something bad will happen.
(2) Tell your kids to not hang around with fighters/terrorists/insurgents who happen to be carrying weapons, and are looking to kill people.
(3) Don't go around hanging Al-Qaeda banners.
(4) Don't dance in front of burning US military vehicles.
(5) Use simple common sense. This will go far.

Troll · Sep 17, 2004, 03:09 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Read the rest of my post.

You added the rest later. Yes, I have been in a battle. Read MY post. The people who did the killing weren't involved in the battle. Why would they panic? I could understand your point if the guys in the Bradley had let rip on civilians but the killers were in helicopters. And the only arrived after the crowd had gathered and reporters had set up.

Logic · Sep 17, 2004, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by Troll:
You added the rest later. Yes, I have been in a battle. Read MY post. The people who did the killing weren't involved in the battle. Why would they panic? I could understand your point if the guys in the Bradley had let rip on civilians but the killers were in helicopters. And the only arrived after the crowd had gathered and reporters had set up.

And after everyone in the Bradley got safely away.

And seeing Zimphire asking someone if he has seen battle was priceless.

BRussell · Sep 17, 2004, 03:21 PM

I don't understand the automatic defensiveness about this. Why not just say that 1) we don't know exactly what happened - just because the beeb and the guardian say something doesn't mean it's exactly as they say, and 2) if it did happen as it looks, it was wrong.

That's really all that need to be said about it.

Logic · Sep 17, 2004, 03:24 PM

Originally posted by BRussell:
I don't understand the automatic defensiveness about this. Why not just say that 1) we don't know exactly what happened - just because the beeb and the guardian say something doesn't mean it's exactly as they say, and 2) if it did happen as it looks, it was wrong.

That's really all that need to be said about it.

Because it's more patriotic to never question your nation and defend it at all cost. Didn't you know that?

PacHead · Sep 17, 2004, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by Logic:
Because it's more patriotic to never question your nation and defend it at all cost. Didn't you know that?

I take the word of US soldiers anyday, over the word of some AL-Qaeda banner waving civilians and other liars.

dcolton · Sep 17, 2004, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by Logic:
And after everyone in the Bradley got safely away.

And seeing Zimphire asking someone if he has seen battle was priceless.

And what do you do to avoid the technology/ weapons of a disabled vehicle to get in the hands of the enemy...mr. Iceland military man?

Troll · Sep 17, 2004, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by BRussell:
I don't understand the automatic defensiveness about this. Why not just say that 1) we don't know exactly what happened - just because the beeb and the guardian say something doesn't mean it's exactly as they say, and 2) if it did happen as it looks, it was wrong.

That's really all that need to be said about it.

That's more like it. Normally the way it works in a democracy is that the press puts the military under pressure to investigate. They interview the journalist, they interview the chopper pilots, they get generals to come out and promise investigations. I'm shocked that this isn't happening in the US. The media is more concerned with whether Kerry deserved a purple heart in Vietnam 3 decades ago than they are about an incident as serious as this. Something is seriously screwed up.

Troll · Sep 17, 2004, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by dcolton:
And what do you do to avoid the technology/ weapons of a disabled vehicle to get in the hands of the enemy...mr. Iceland military man?

How about the soldiers that got out of the Bradley or the ones that got them out goes back and creates a cordon before you start doing missile target practice.

Besides you're forgetting this:

"The helicopters wheeled overhead, and I realised that they were firing directly at us. I wanted to be invisible, I wanted to hide under the others."

They didn't just destroy the Bradley. They killed people that were far away from the Bradley ... with their machine guns!!

dcolton · Sep 17, 2004, 03:46 PM

Originally posted by Troll:
How about the soldiers that got out of the Bradley or the ones that got them out goes back and creates a cordon before you start doing missile target practice.

Besides you're forgetting this:

"The helicopters wheeled overhead, and I realised that they were firing directly at us. I wanted to be invisible, I wanted to hide under the others."

They didn't just destroy the Bradley. They killed people that were far away from the Bradley ... with their machine guns!!

Were the soldiers already extracted? Did anyone fire upon the soldiers before the blogger made it to the scene that he reluctantly strolled over to?

Troll · Sep 17, 2004, 03:50 PM

Originally posted by dcolton:
Were the soldiers already extracted? Did anyone fire upon the soldiers before the blogger made it to the scene that he reluctantly strolled over to?

Blogger? What blogger was on the scene?

Why don't you read the documents linked into the thread before you reply? Do you really think that the Airforce would be firing missiles into the Bradley if the soldiers hadn't been extracted. Don't be silly man. Those be Americans. You only fire indiscriminately on towelheads.

dcolton · Sep 17, 2004, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by Troll:
Blogger? What blogger was on the scene?

Why don't you read the documents linked into the thread before you reply? Do you really think that the Airforce would be firing missiles into the Bradley if the soldiers hadn't been extracted. Don't be silly man. Those be Americans. You only fire indiscriminately on towelheads.

I read the blog. Could it be possible the Americans were hiding because of the presence of killer Iraqi's? Is it possible that they were high tailing it out of there and needed cover fire becusae a mob of unruly terrorists were closing in? Why should they take the chance when we are dealing with people who decapitate heads?
I know you would rather see American soldiers die than an Iraqi killer...but as for me, err on the side of caution and the American soldier who protects not only American citizens, but citizens throughut the war.

Troll · Sep 17, 2004, 04:23 PM

Originally posted by dcolton:
I read the blog. Could it be possible the Americans were hiding because of the presence of killer Iraqi's? Is it possible that they were high tailing it out of there and needed cover fire becusae a mob of unruly terrorists were closing in? Why should they take the chance when we are dealing with people who decapitate heads?
I know you would rather see American soldiers die than an Iraqi killer...but as for me, err on the side of caution and the American soldier who protects not only American citizens, but citizens throughut the war.

What blog did you read?

They shot a reporter. I've seen the video. He is not an unruly terrorist closing in on anyone. And the people in the background who get killed are mostly standing around on the sidewalk watching a few people (with no banners or flags) standing on top of the Bradley. The helicopters come and shoot the reporter, blow up the Bradley and then make multiple passes killing people. In short, no, there is no possibility that any Americans were in danger.

Logic · Sep 17, 2004, 04:27 PM

dcolton:

I have you on ignore but I have to say this. Read the ****ing documents and links provided in this thread before making up your mind and defending the slaughter of innocent civilians.

PacHead · Sep 17, 2004, 04:30 PM

Originally posted by Logic:
dcolton:

I have you on ignore but I have to say this. Read the ****ing documents and links provided in this thread before making up your mind and defending the slaughter of innocent civilians.

So you are arguing against a person who you have on ignore, without even reading the past statements he has made ? That makes sense.

I suppose he's 100% wrong no matter what he types heh ?

dcolton · Sep 17, 2004, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by Logic:
dcolton:

I have you on ignore but I have to say this. Read the ****ing documents and links provided in this thread before making up your mind and defending the slaughter of innocent civilians.

I can't hear you.

dcolton · Sep 17, 2004, 04:36 PM

Originally posted by PacHead:
So you are arguing against a person who you have on ignore, without even reading the past statements he has made ? That makes sense.

I suppose he's 100% wrong no matter what he types heh ?

Don't worry PacHead. I quit caring after people defended a terrorist attack on school children. Claiming a 'root cause' for 9/11 is one thing, but when these asshole terrorist sympathizers defend the calculated, cold blooded murder of children...screw them all - I have no responsibility to be civil to people like that.

olePigeon · Sep 17, 2004, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Covering it up would be denying it happened. No one is doing that. You need to choose your words a bit better.

Covering up can also mean you can avoid quesioning by saying "we can neither confirm, nor deny such actions." In which case you're not exactly lying, but your not divulging any information either.

Spoogepieces · Sep 17, 2004, 05:41 PM

Originally posted by Troll:
First of all, that is NOT the legal definition of murder. Secondly are you suggesting that it by mistake they made numerous passes killing people that were, inter alia, trying to evacuate the wounded?

Murder requires intentional infliction of death on the victim. Planning to kill someone ahead of time, execution of the plan. Malice. Intent.

To accuse them of murder you need to prove that they were sitting around for days, planned on getting in the helicopters, and the only intent was to go out and kill those people.

Logic · Sep 17, 2004, 05:46 PM

Originally posted by Spoogepieces:
Murder requires intentional infliction of death on the victim. Planning to kill someone ahead of time, execution of the plan. Malice. Intent.

To accuse them of murder you need to prove that they were sitting around for days, planned on getting in the helicopters, and the only intent was to go out and kill those people.

Loading the weapons on the helis. Planning the mission. Flying there. Noticing a large crowd of civilians around the Bradley. Calling in to ask if they should continue with the mission. Getting the Go signal. Getting into assault position. Aiming. Firing missiles. Fly-by to assess the damage and if the mission was successful and at the same time strafing civilians trying to get injured people to safety.

Cold blooded murder and a blatant war crime.

olePigeon · Sep 17, 2004, 05:47 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I am saying they never pre-meditated.

Tell me Troll, have you been in the middle of battle before?

Because a friend tells you a story, that makes you the expert on murder.

Spoogepieces · Sep 17, 2004, 05:48 PM

Originally posted by Logic:
Loading the weapons on the helis. Planning the mission. Flying there. Noticing a large crowd of civilians around the Bradley. Calling in to ask if they should continue with the mission. Getting the Go signal. Getting into assault position. Aiming. Firing missiles. Fly-by to assess the damage and if the mission was successful and at the same time strafing civilians trying to get injured people to safety.

Cold blooded murder and a blatant war crime.

Prove intent.

You must prove intent and malice and planning specifically to kill those people before the mission for it to be murder.

Murder is also unlawful so you'd better be prepared to show which U.S. laws were broken here because those soldiers are only under U.S. command and jurisdiction at this time.

Logic · Sep 17, 2004, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by Spoogepieces:
Prove intent.

You must prove intent and malice and planning specifically to kill those people before the mission for it to be murder.

Murder is also unlawful so you'd better be prepared to show which U.S. laws were broken here because those soldiers are only under U.S. command and jurisdiction at this time.

No, you are wrong. They have to follow the GC. And that they have clearly broken.

Spoogepieces · Sep 17, 2004, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by Logic:
No, you are wrong. They have to follow the GC. And that they have clearly broken.

I ask you a THIRD time.

Prove intent.

Prove forethought.

Prove that they planned the attack long before it took place.

Prove that the intent of getting in that helicopter was solely to go out and execute civilians.

Show me the law which was broken.

Show me where YOU have personally conducted an investigation, interrogated the soldiers, or otherwise questioned them.

Show me any results of any other investigation done into this incident.

Show me where the pilots or the soliders of the helicopters were given specific orders or instructions to kill anyone or everyone in sight.

You armchair Europeans are really getting old quickly. It's disgusting how you imbiciles are using these situtations in order for political gain. Shame, for shame on all of you.

Atomic Rooster · Sep 17, 2004, 06:24 PM

Originally posted by Spoogepieces:
<snip tripe>

How's your flippity flopping going? I have to catch up on some reading.

Spoogepieces · Sep 17, 2004, 06:26 PM

Originally posted by Atomic Rooster:

Figures you people have no reply to what I posted.

Any excuse to score political points whenever there's a problem in Iraq. Someone dies, you people use it as an excuse to gain leverage and score points. It's as if you morons sit around praying for more deaths so that you've got something to post about each day.

Spoogepieces · Sep 17, 2004, 06:28 PM

Originally posted by Atomic Rooster:
How's your flippity flopping going? I have to catch up on some reading.

Dunno, how's your Kerryaching going?

Atomic Rooster · Sep 17, 2004, 06:32 PM

Originally posted by Spoogepieces:
Figures you people have no reply to what I posted.

Any excuse to score political points whenever there's a problem in Iraq. Someone dies, you people use it as an excuse to gain leverage and score points. It's as if you morons sit around praying for more deaths so that you've got something to post about each day.

You still think those dead children are morons. You like that word don't you?

Spoogepieces · Sep 17, 2004, 06:34 PM

Originally posted by Atomic Rooster:
You still think those dead children are morons. You like that word don't you?

I wasn't referring to any of the dead civilians.