[Troll]

Since there's so much anti-French bull being posted on this forum:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4413913.stm

Europe - and France in particular - are seen as benevolent forces in a world largely scornful of US influence, a poll taken in 23 countries suggests.

The survey found that, on average, 58% of people want Europe to play a bigger role than the US in world affairs.

France emerged as the single country with the best reputation abroad.

The survey was carried out by polling group GlobeScan and the University of Maryland with some questions provided by the BBC World Service.

Of the 23,518 people polled, 47% said the US had a negative effect on the world, with US neighbours and allied countries being among its biggest critics.

Overall, 15 of the 23 countries surveyed said the US had a negative influence in the world.

[Randman]

Too funny. But you're a few days too late. April 1st has passed.

[analogika]

Originally posted by Randman:



Too funny. But you're a few days too late. April 1st has passed.

I wouldn't be laughing if I were you.

[Randman]

[villalobos]

French women sure are the finest.

[Randman]

[pooka]

Originally posted by villalobos:
French women sure are the finest.

Yeah, but even Australian women are better in bed.

[TETENAL]

Originally posted by Troll:
France has best global reputation

Those 58% must have been people who haven't visited that country yet.

[pooka]

Originally posted by TETENAL:
Those 58% must have been people who haven't visited that country yet.

WHOOOOOO!

EUROFIGHT!

[von Wrangell]

Originally posted by TETENAL:
Those 58% must have been people who haven't visited that country yet.

Says the German guy

[SimeyTheLimey]

Jokes aside, this PIPA group out of the University of Maryland is developing quite a track record of push polling. It's the same group that produced the "different realities" poll (link) that had liberals all aflutter before the election, and the one about Fox viewers and their supposed ignorance on foreign affairs (translation: disagreement with liberals). Link.

Each time the pattern seems to be the same. They design a poll to reach a result, get the desired result, issue a hyperbolic press release, which is then dutifully carried by outlets who share their agenda.

At least they don't go to too much trouble to disguise their leanings. Take a look at their sponsors, a who's who of liberal foundations:

PIPA's Foundation Sponsors

Rockefeller Foundation
Rockefeller Brothers Fund
Tides Foundation
Ford Foundation
German Marshall Fund of the United States
Compton Foundation
Carnegie Corporation
Benton Foundation
Ben and Jerry's Foundation
Americans Talk Issues Foundation
Circle Foundation

Link

I won't post the bios of their staff and Board of Advisors (it is long), but it won't surprise anyone to find out that it is basically a list of Carter Administration and Clinton Administration alumni, Carter Center alums, Brookings Institution fellows, and so on. All very eminent in their own way, but with a decided political tinge.

The question is this: If the Heritage Foundation or the Cato Institution produced similar push polls and press releases (and in fact, they do), would anyone on the right expect anyone on the left to be convinced, worried, respectful, or in any way think that the study was anything but a partisan effort? If the answer is no (and it would be no), then why the hell would anyone think that this group should be taken any more seriously?

[von Wrangell]

Yada yada blah blah etc etc.

I know it's a common thing here to label this and that one of being a liberal or neo-con but please. That was just silly.

If you want to say that you can't trust this poll you better show that the questions posed were designed to get a required result. You better show that they chose people who they knew would answer in a way they expected. All other rants are just the ramblings of the insecure.

[nath]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Jokes aside

So we can ignore your post then?


The questions quoted in the OP are not push-poll questions. Your use of the term in this context indicates that you don't know what the phrase means.

An example of a push-poll question would be "If you found out that John Kerry committed war crimes whilst serving in Vietnam, would you want him to be president?" The construction of the question is intended to lead the respondent in a specific direction.

The questions stated here - "Does France/the US have a mainly positive or mainly negative influence in the world" are open ended, hence not a 'push' question.

I'm sure the organisations concerned have bias, as do we all. But you have failed to demonstrate this bias within the context of the questions referred to in the OP.


edit: There's a decent description of push-polling on Wikipedia, should you feel the need to read up. You'll never guess who they use as an example....

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by nath:
So we can ignore your post then?


The questions quoted in the OP are not push-poll questions. Your use of the term in this context indicates that you don't know what the phrase means.

An example of a push-poll question would be "If you found out that John Kerry committed war crimes whilst serving in Vietnam, would you want him to be president?" The construction of the question is intended to lead the respondent in a specific direction.

The questions stated here - "Does France/the US have a mainly positive or mainly negative influence in the world" are open ended, hence not a 'push' question.

I'm sure the organisations concerned have bias, as do we all. But you have failed to demonstrate this bias within the context of the questions referred to in the OP.


edit: There's a decent description of push-polling on Wikipedia, should you feel the need to read up. You'll never guess who they use as an example....

If the motivation for the poll is to go find a certain result in order to generate a press release, the poll is still a push poll.

PIPA's real problem is that they have an agenda, poll according to that agenda, and then spin their poll results according to that agenda. Don't expect anyone who is suspicious of their agenda to be very impressed. Real polling is neutral. PIPA is not.

Let me just underscore something where I think you are mistaken. It isn't just that they have a little bit of bias. It is that their purpose is bias. Their purpose is transparently to advance an agenda. That is not something that should be overlooked. Again, you wouldn't overlook it if the organization were Heritage or Cato, I don't know why you would expect people on the other side to take your pet partisans any more seriously.

[von Wrangell]

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by analogika:
I wouldn't be laughing if I were you.

[von Wrangell]

The terribly biased question.

• For each of the following possible future trends, please tell me if you would see it as mainly positive or mainly negative . . . Europe becomes more influential than the United States in world affairs.
• Please tell me if you think each of the following are having a mainly positive or mainly negative influence in the world . . . Europe
• Please tell me if you think each of the following are having a mainly positive or mainly negative influence in the world . . . France
• Please tell me if you think each of the following are having a mainly positive or mainly negative influence in the world . . . Britain
• Please tell me if you think each of the following are having a mainly positive or mainly negative influence in the world . . . China
• Please tell me if you think each of the following are having a mainly positive or mainly negative influence in the world . . . Russia
• Please tell me if you think each of the following are having a mainly positive or mainly negative influence in the world . . . the United States

As you can see this is extremely biased in favour of France.

[y0y0]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Jokes aside, ...

Uhm ok.

Seriously, when was the last time you didn't try to do some mental and semantic gymnastics when something in life didn't suite you? You're as bad as the people still clamouring that Bush stole the last election.

Of course a poll is not perfect, and of course a poll doesn't reflect the entire world's opinion, since every country is made up of individual people with individual opinions, which means that the question about the USA's popularity will be higher in places that benefit or see some benefit from the USA, such as Bangalore, India, where a lot of outsourced US companies have their bases and lower in places where, for instance, the number of Muslims is higher, such as Mumbai.

Same goes for France, where people will see it as more beneficial in places where they resent or fear US military adventurism or dislike US foreign politics, such as in large parts of South America.

Me, I find the poll ironically hilarious. I dislike Jaques Chirac and his politics as much as I dislike Bush' politcis, but I love France and find it simply amusing since it's guaranteed to piss off all the Freedom Fries Patriots in the US.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by y0y0:
Uhm ok.

Seriously, when was the last time you didn't try to do some mental and semantic gymnastics when something in life didn't suite you? You're as bad as the people still clamouring that Bush stole the last election.

Of course a poll is not perfect, and of course a poll doesn't reflect the entire world's opinion, since every country is made up of individual people with individual opinions, which means that the question about the USA's popularity will be higher in places that benefit or see some benefit from the USA, such as Bangalore, India, where a lot of outsourced US companies have their bases and lower in places where, for instance, the number of Muslims is higher, such as Mumbai.

Same goes for France, where people will see it as more beneficial in places where they resent or fear US military adventurism or dislike US foreign politics, such as in large parts of South America.

Me, I find the poll ironically hilarious. I dislike Jaques Chirac and his politics as much as I dislike Bush' politcis, but I love France and find it simply amusing since it's guaranteed to piss off all the Freedom Fries Patriots in the US.

I don't really care about the poll results, frankly. I could give a damn whether France and Britain are seen as more beneficial to the people these pollsters polled than the US, Russia, or China (which is what the poll actually says).

What irritates me more is the constant propagandizing from the left and the way you sanctimoniously package that propaganda as somehow objective truth. You (and particularly this group) produce these stories with a transparent agenda, and then demand that everyone take them seriously as if they have no agenda. Bunk.

[von Wrangell]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
I could give a damn whether France and Britain are seen as more beneficial to the people these pollsters polled than the US, Russia, or China (which is what the poll actually says).

The question:

Please tell me if you think each of the following are having a mainly positive or mainly negative influence in the world . . . France

Does not say that. What it says is that people in the counties polled believe France has a mainly positive influence in the world. If it'd say what you are trying to imply it says they would change that question to:

Please tell me if you think each of the following are having a mainly positive or mainly negative influence on you . . . France

But continue the spinning. It's provides a good laugh or two.

[JohnSmithXTREME]

It should be noted that French women are the sexiest in Europe. The same can't be said for French men though.

[pooka]

Originally posted by nath:
The questions stated here - "Does France/the US have a mainly positive or mainly negative influence in the world" are open ended, hence not a 'push' question.

Dude, it's obvious.



thread owned.

[von Wrangell]

Originally posted by pooka:
Dude, it's obvious.



thread owned.

[nath]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
If the motivation for the poll is to go find a certain result in order to generate a press release, the poll is still a push poll.

No, unfortunately you still don't understand. 'Push poll' is not a generalised (or colloquial) term. A push-poll is a very specific and quite recently termed thing, as detailed by the Wikipedia link I supplied, which you ignored.

It is a poll in which the questions are specifically designed and structured to 'push' the respondent into a preferred response to the poll, or course of action after the poll.

This question is completely open. It is not a push poll. The topic of the question or the original intent of the author are not relevant to the results as long as the question is fair.

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
PIPA's real problem is that they have an agenda, poll according to that agenda, and then spin their poll results according to that agenda. Don't expect anyone who is suspicious of their agenda to be very impressed. Real polling is neutral. PIPA is not.

Welcome to the world, where people and organisations come with agendas. I'd be very interested to hear about these 'neutral' polling organisations though. As far as I can see everyone has bias - it's just a thing that *people* have. All I'm interested in when I look at polling data is the framing of the question.

To put it in the most basic terms, the only thing that determines whether a poll is neutral is the question.

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Again, you wouldn't overlook it if the organization were Heritage or Cato, I don't know why you would expect people on the other side to take your pet partisans any more seriously.

On the contrary, I would be very interested indeed if the question were as fair as this. I'm sure you have examples contradicting the results above. I'm even surer that for whatever reason you won't produce them.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by pooka:
Dude, it's obvious.



thread owned.

Wow, I thought it was obvious, but they apparently didn't see it. Thanks for spelling it out for them.

[nath]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
I don't really care about the poll results, frankly.

Ha ha. You know what it tends to indicate when someone adds 'frankly' or 'to be honest' to the end of a sentence don't you?

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
What irritates me more is the constant propagandizing from the left and the way you sanctimoniously package that propaganda as somehow objective truth. You (and particularly this group) produce these stories with a transparent agenda, and then demand that everyone take them seriously as if they have no agenda. Bunk.

Who cares about their agenda? It's completely irrelevant to the results of the poll, which certainly is objective, as the question was fair and open-ended.

It's actually a textbook example of an open question. Pretty impressive.

[nath]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Wow, I thought it was obvious, but they apparently didn't see it. Thanks for spelling it out for them.

Sorry buddy, but in actual fact the questions were completely separated, not comparative.

I just typed it that way, which is down to my typing laziness rather than any of the question-loading you guys seem to be so desperate to find.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by nath:
Welcome to the world, where people and organisations come with agendas.

. . . And where people evaluate the source according to that agenda.

This is a liberal partisan group, with a track record of producing polls designed to promote their partisan agenda. I have no interest in the results of their polls. But I do have an interest in highlighting their agenda so that people are not mislead into thinking they are neutral. It's part of my overall goal of doing my tiny part to combat liberal media bias. The BBC didn't bother telling us that the press release they based their article came from was a partisan Democratic group. So I will add that information so that their "poll" can be properly discounted (or dismissed).

Besides, the poll's whole premise is flawed. Foreign policy isn't about popularity. You do realize I wouldn't change US foreign policy even if an accurate opinion poll said France was God Almighty and America the new Satan? The answer would still be "so what?"

[budster101]

Originally posted by JohnSmithXTREME:
It should be noted that French women are the sexiest in Europe. The same can't be said for French men though.

Isn't that like saying, the Beagle is the most beautiful dog in the dog kingdom...

Armpit Hair anyone? Bath lately?

Ack.


--

American Women are the sexiest in the friggin world.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by budster101:

American Women are the sexiest in the friggin world.

Nah. Irish women are tops, but then, I have a fetish for chicks with red hair and freckles.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by nath:
Sorry buddy, but in actual fact the questions were completely separated, not comparative.

I just typed it that way, which is down to my typing laziness rather than any of the question-loading you guys seem to be so desperate to find.

Nifty bar graph. I don't believe it or trust it, but it is impressive.

[nath]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
. . . And where people evaluate the source according to that agenda.

This is a liberal partisan group, with a track record of producing polls designed to promote their partisan agenda. I have no interest in the results of their polls. But I do have an interest in highlighting their agenda so that people are not mislead into thinking they are neutral. It's part of my overall goal of ensuring that liberal media bias is properly identified. The BBC didn't bother telling us that the press release they based their article came from was a partisan Democratic group. So I will add that information.

No-one is saying the group is unbiased. I am saying the question is fair and open, and therefore the results are.

Why is this poll designed to promote their agenda? Because it questions current US popularity? Are you really that sensitive?

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Besides, the poll's whole premise is flawed. Foreign policy isn't about popularity. You do realize I wouldn't change US foreign policy even if an accurate opinion poll said France was God Almighty? The answer would still be "so what?"

I can't see anyone saying that foreign policy is about popularity. Is that another strawman?

Seems to me the poll measures the effect of recent US policies on the popularity of the US around the world. Whether you care or not, it does that in a fair and open manner.

[pooka]

Originally posted by nath:
I just typed it that way, which is down to my typing laziness rather than any of the question-loading you guys seem to be so desperate to find.

Riiiiight..

I found the actual survey. You're right. The questions were slightly different.



Ownage stands.

[nath]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Nah. Irish women are tops, but then, I have a fetish for chicks with red hair and freckles.

Phoooo. Most Irish women are fat with dark hair. All over them.

Jamaican women....now that's a different story.


American women are OK...but often can't drink, so that's a no-no.

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Nifty bar graph. I don't believe it or trust it, but it is impressive.

Really? I can sort of understand not trusting the organisation behind a survey, but the question seems extremely open and fair. What it is about the question or methodology that you find problematic?

[nath]

Originally posted by pooka:
Riiiiight..

I found the actual survey. You're right. The questions were slightly different.



Ownage stands.

OK, ownage stands.

[von Wrangell]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
.... It's part of my overall goal of doing my tiny part to combat liberal media bias......

......Besides, the poll's whole premise is flawed. Foreign policy isn't about popularity......

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAA

[budster101]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Nah. Irish women are tops, but then, I have a fetish for chicks with red hair and freckles.

Oh, forgot to state my own agenda.

American Anything is related to the World.

My wife is Irish/American.

She's haut.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by nath:
Why is this poll designed to promote their agenda? Because it questions current US popularity? Are you really that sensitive?

nath: it's not really about this particular poll, the results of which are pretty innoccuous. Look at the track record of this group, and the way their press releases have been covered. Each time, they have been given an unwarranted patina of objectivity.

Their two pre-election polls were actually much worse than this one. Both had serious problems with the questions, and worse ones with the interpretation. What was highly annoying was the way in which the group's press release was just adopted, and their conclusions never examined. In fact, both the "Fox viewers are ignorant" poll and the "Republicans are mislead on foreign policy" polls swiftly became articles of pre-election faith.

If you want to promote this group as just another group of former Democratic Administration has-beens and liberal academics, then fine, we can evaluate them for what they are. But what they are is not neutral, and that being so, people who don't share their agenda don't have to take them seriously. But I do wish organizations like the BBC would learn to be more upfront about the identity of groups like this. You know they would be if this was, say, the dreaded American Enterprise Institute.

Basically, I am just trying to establish their track record, so that next time they produce a press release people can say (as they should) "oh, them again" -- which is pretty much how I reacted.

[von Wrangell]

This thread is pure comedy gold!

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by von Wrangell:
This thread is pure comedy gold!

Simey is (still) handing you your asses. So, you laugh to cover up that fact... has it gotten so bad that THIS is the only tactic you have left?

Pitiful.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by nath:
Phoooo. Most Irish women are fat with dark hair. All over them.

That goes completely against what I saw in Dublin.

[von Wrangell]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Simey is (still) handing you your asses. So, you laugh to cover up that fact... has it gotten so bad that THIS is the only tactic you have left?

Pitiful.

Gets even better.

Simey is just trying to misdirect. What the organisation that did this poll thinks is irrelevant. You can see the questions, there is no bias there. Have Americans really become so disillusioned and insecure that they just can't accept that they are disliked in most of the world and that their policies are considered having a bad effect on the world?

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by von Wrangell:


Gets even better.

Simey is just trying to misdirect. What the organisation that did this poll thinks is irrelevant. You can see the questions, there is no bias there. Have Americans really become so disillusioned and insecure that they just can't accept that they are disliked in most of the world and that their policies are considered having a bad effect on the world?

I rest my case.

[Macrobat]

Interesting read that could just happen to provide clarification as to why France might score "higher."

http://americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4388

If read objectively, the EAD, intitiated and driven by France, would tend to make France appear "friendlier" and more "well-thought of" in the area of the world the pol was primarily propogated.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally posted by Troll:
Since there's so much anti-French bull being posted on this forum:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4413913.stm

Let's see now: a biased group has taken a poll and posted survery results that match perfectly with the agenda they are trying to promote.

Let me know when they come out and say the US is best and France is sucky, now that would be newsworthy.

Oh, and if you see anything from the Heritage Foundation praising our French brethren for their reputation as the best country on the planet, let me know. That would be newsworthy as well.

[dcmacdaddy]

Just to show the BBC can report news critical of the European elite, check out this article.

Amnesty Raps French Police Abuses

Here's to "Fair and Balanced" reporting.

[nath]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
That goes completely against what I saw in Dublin.

Well, exactly.

GYAC - Dublin is one of the biggest tourist spots in Europe. Most of the girls you saw were probably from London and Sweden. And I'm afraid that yes, many Irish girls do have moustaches.

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
nath: it's not really about this particular poll, the results of which are pretty innoccuous. Look at the track record of this group, and the way their press releases have been covered. Each time, they have been given an unwarranted patina of objectivity.

Simey: I'm afraid that in places, your posts really have been about this particular poll, which you mistakenly called a 'push-poll', and tried to discredit. I've no problem with people knowing any relevant bias - you're speaking to someone who reads the Sun and Mail everyday.

But I strongly believe that methodology and the fair and open-ended construction of polling questions is - by a very long way - the most important consideration when looking at polling data. No one arguing on your side of the fence has tried to discredit the question or methodology here, which I think is telling.

The agenda of the author should also be considered - but unless the respondents are aware of this agenda and are factoring such knowledge into their responses it has no effect whatsoever on the reliability of the numbers.

BTW, the BBC routinely carries data from right wing think tanks and polling groups (every day now the election has been called). They don't label these particularly clearly either. It probably should be addressed, in cases where there is a strong party political affiliation.

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
But I do wish organizations like the BBC would learn to be more upfront about the identity of groups like this. You know they would be if this was, say, the dreaded American Enterprise Institute.

OT, but I'm still intrigued by the fact that you demand transparency from news organisations but not from governments creating news content. It seems very hypocritical.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by nath:
Well, exactly.

GYAC - Dublin is one of the biggest tourist spots in Europe. Most of the girls you saw were probably from London and Sweden.

Wow, girls from London and Sweden who are fluent in Gaelic, with names like Flannery and O'Reily. Right. Granted, I'm sure there are some ugly Irish gals, but the prettiest ones are the most attractive girls in the world... by far.

[nath]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Granted, I'm sure there are some ugly Irish gals, but the prettiest ones are the most attractive girls in the world... by far.

Heh. I love American myths about Ireland.

Those plucky freedom fighters from the Emerald Isle with a twinkle in their eyes and a blarney stone!

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by nath:
But I strongly believe that methodology and the fair and open-ended construction of polling questions is - by a very long way - the most important consideration when looking at polling data. No one arguing on your side of the fence has tried to discredit the question or methodology here, which I think is telling.

The agenda of the author should also be considered - but unless the respondents are aware of this agenda and are factoring such knowledge into their responses it has no effect whatsoever on the reliability of the numbers.

We have no idea what the methodology was. How were the respondant's selected? Who were the questioners? What conditions were the tests conducted under? You don't know that, and nor do I. That's why asking about the bias and agenda of the organization that commissioned and designed the poll is deeply relevant.

The fact is, this organization of Clinton and Carter Administration has-beens and liberal academics has a track record of commissioning misleading polls, and then of spining and distorting the results and then feeding those results to a gullible (or complicit) media. That's a problem, and a relevant factor to evaluate anything else that comes from the same source. The burden is on them to prove why we should trust this poll any more than their previous ones, which were basically politicized garbage.

It may be that this poll corrects some of their earlier mistakes. But the problem is, they have never admitted that their earlier polls were mistakes, or that news accounts based on their press releases were misleading and wrong. That's to be expected, because this is a group with a political agenda. They pose as an objective research group, but they are not. It's that camouflage which is so objectionable. That, and the fact that the news stories they feed never seem to mention their partisanship.

Basically, you are free to hang on the every word of this group and treat everything they choose to tell you as Gospel. Personally, I prefer to look at the source, and when it is biased, as this group is biased, I'm dismissing it.