[Tiresias]

The Falling Man

This has always troubled me. I just can't figure out why about 200 or so ordinary people jumped thousands of feet to their death on 9/11. One or two survived the collapse. No one survived the jump.

What were they thinking? Were they thinking?

I think enough time has passed for this to be treated as a problem solving exercise.

The candidate possibilities are:

A) It was really, really freaking hot
B) It was really, really freaking hard to breathe
C) A and B
D) The shock and horror made them suicidal
E) They thought there were nets or something to catch them ( )
F) Brief reactive psychosis (See D)
G) They fell through broken windows, unable to see where they were going 'cos of the smoke.
H) Other

But these are all wild guesses.

I haven't seen any of the numerous 9/11 documentaries that've been aired. I guess some of you have. What did the experts opine? What is your opinion?

[design219]

C.

Dude, is this really a question for you? I think most people would choose death over extreme suffering. Death by heat/fire and death by suffication are not, relatively speaking, quick.

I think these people had the horrible experience of having to quickly weigh their options. I can't say I fault their decision.

[Doofy]

1) It's actually sometimes possible to survive a large fall. See Guinness Book of Records.

2) Burning alive is not pleasant.

While we're here, one thing I wonder about is why they haven't prepared for any similar future events. If it were me, I'd make it a legal requirement that all buildings over a certain height have parachutes on every floor. A first-time base jump (in a similar event) would be scary, but your chances of survival would improve dramatically.

[design219]

There is/was a company that started marketing executive parchutes after 911 for that purpose. I don't remember their name and don't know if they still are. It seemed like profiteering from a tragedy to me.

[el chupacabra]

maybe they went to windows to try and get air then were pushed out by other people behind them trying to get to the windows for air.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

maybe they went to windows to try and get air then were pushed out by other people behind them trying to get to the windows for air.

That's a very plausible hypothesis.

However, if you're interested, watch this short documentary:

The Falling Man, Part 1
The Falling Man, Part 2

IMO, it seems that, from what some of the last voices to be heard from the WTC had to say (via mobile phone), people were making a choice to jump.

[ghporter]

Let's see....burn to death rather slowly (unless you're actually on fire) or die very quickly with a big splat... I dunno.......

People jumping from highrises in fires is not exactly unknown. Most of the time it seems to be a choice between baking or impact.

[BRussell]

I disagree with some of the comments in this thread. I sincerely doubt anyone said "I think I'll jump now so I won't suffocate or burn." I doubt it was such a conscious decision. They were just trying to escape the pain behind them.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by BRussell 

I disagree with some of the comments in this thread. I sincerely doubt anyone said "I think I'll jump now so I won't suffocate or burn." I doubt it was such a conscious decision. They were just trying to escape the pain behind them.

Maybe you're right. They were probably just lunging themselves in the opposite direction of unbearable pain without thinking.

Then a slow, lonely fall...

[Buckaroo]

I believe most of them that fell, either were unintentionally pushed out by the crowd behind them trying to get some fresh air, or they tried to grab a hold of the exterior stainless steel columns and slide down to a lower floor, only to quickly loose their grip and as soon as they fell away from the building, they could not get close enough to grab again. As soon as they lost their grip and realized there was no hope, some may have even passed out from the panic.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by BRussell 

I disagree with some of the comments in this thread. I sincerely doubt anyone said "I think I'll jump now so I won't suffocate or burn." I doubt it was such a conscious decision. They were just trying to escape the pain behind them.

I suspect it was a conscious decision for many jumpers. There are reports of people jumping while holding hands.

Burn or jump? I'd jump, no question.

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

1) It's actually sometimes possible to survive a large fall. See Guinness Book of Records.

2) Burning alive is not pleasant.

While we're here, one thing I wonder about is why they haven't prepared for any similar future events. If it were me, I'd make it a legal requirement that all buildings over a certain height have parachutes on every floor. A first-time base jump (in a similar event) would be scary, but your chances of survival would improve dramatically.

We have the same train of thought.

If I worked in a tall building, you bet your ass I'd have a parachute.

[Peter]

you wouldn't survive a base jump on first try, no way.

[forkies]

this is one aspect of the 9/11 attack i can never even stomach thinking about. just terrible.

[Graviton]

I think the huge airliners flying into the buildings had something to do with it.

I saw it. It was on TV and stuff.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Peter 

you wouldn't survive a base jump on first try, no way.

No one ever does... It takes 3 or 4 tries to be successful at base jumping.

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by Peter 

you wouldn't survive a base jump on first try, no way.

Chances are better surviving a base jump for the first time, than staying in a collapsing building.

Besides, if I worked that high up, I could afford to go more often and be experienced.

[macroy]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

1) It's actually sometimes possible to survive a large fall. See Guinness Book of Records.

2) Burning alive is not pleasant.

While we're here, one thing I wonder about is why they haven't prepared for any similar future events. If it were me, I'd make it a legal requirement that all buildings over a certain height have parachutes on every floor. A first-time base jump (in a similar event) would be scary, but your chances of survival would improve dramatically.

I think there is a minimum height for a parachute to be effective....

Also, I'm sure they are incorporating new safety standards in new buildings.. its just not what your thinking of. You have to keep in mind that this was one of those extreme situations where ALL of the other safeguards were destroyed...mainly all the exits were cut off. Bottom line, nothing is "100%". So there will always be the afterthought of "if we only had this....". This is where risk management comes into play. And I'm sure the risk is simply not high enough to necessitate certain extreme safety measures (i.e parachutes, or a helicopter on the roof). Yes, someone will say that you can't put a price on life.... but the reality is that we do.

[Buckaroo]

Ooops. Double post somehow.

[Buckaroo]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

No one ever does... It takes 3 or 4 tries to be successful at base jumping.

The first two times must be tough.

[Super Mario]

There's an audio clip around of a man trapped in one of the towers making his last phonecall. Scariest thing I ever heard. When you hear that clip you'll know why they jumped.

[Buckaroo]

If they jumped, it was because they had fire on their back. They did not know the building was going to collapse. Even the guy in the audio was trying to give directions to the 911 operator for rescue. Some floors had several people pushing to get fresh air. The people pushing could not see who was up front or if they were endangering the lives of those that fell.

Unless your suicidal, you have fire at your back or if you believe you can somehow grab something on the way down, you just don't jump. These people were not suicidal. They were good people who wanted to live. Events happened so fast some did panic, yet most were just trying to save their life.


The actions of the Muslim terrorists are a disgrace to mankind and shameful.

[iranfromthezoo]

Most of those people were trapped in a IDLH (Immediately Dangerous to Life and Health) atmosphere. The black toxic smoke would have killed them in 30 minutes. They would be long dead before the fire got to them. And those did burn to death probably died a quick death considering the fire will destroy all nerve endings and would turn your lungs into hydrochloric acid...

Many probably jumped out of desperation. I don't know if any of you have ever been in a burning building but it is extremely desperate. It is disorienting. Even when your a firefighter and your trained in this stuff. You can't see your hand in front of your face (even with a flashlight) it's extremely hot. It was probably getting any where from 450-700 degrees in many of the burning rooms or upper floors. The smoke got to them first and would have choked them out. If they broke a window it just sent the flames closer to them because it gave it more oxygen. I've met people whose buildings were on fire and they almost killed me because they jumped on my ladder when we were trying to get them. Panic sets in and people will look for anyway to get out. Adrenaline and panic mixed make you loose a normal train of thought.

You really can't know why these people did this unless you were those people.

wow that was a lot...sorry

[climber]

Originally Posted by iranfromthezoo 

Most of those people were trapped in a IDLH (Immediately Dangerous to Life and Health) atmosphere. The black toxic smoke would have killed them in 30 minutes. They would be long dead before the fire got to them. And those did burn to death probably died a quick death considering the fire will destroy all nerve endings and would turn your lungs into hydrochloric acid...

Many probably jumped out of desperation. I don't know if any of you have ever been in a burning building but it is extremely desperate. It is disorienting. Even when your a firefighter and your trained in this stuff. You can't see your hand in front of your face (even with a flashlight) it's extremely hot. It was probably getting any where from 450-700 degrees in many of the burning rooms or upper floors. The smoke got to them first and would have choked them out. If they broke a window it just sent the flames closer to them because it gave it more oxygen. I've met people whose buildings were on fire and they almost killed me because they jumped on my ladder when we were trying to get them. Panic sets in and people will look for anyway to get out. Adrenaline and panic mixed make you loose a normal train of thought.

You really can't know why these people did this unless you were those people.

wow that was a lot...sorry

Thanks for the insight, and well stated.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

If it were me, I'd make it a legal requirement that all buildings over a certain height have parachutes on every floor. A first-time base jump (in a similar event) would be scary, but your chances of survival would improve dramatically.

There are better options to parachutes. Emergency evacuation from tall air traffic control towers is by sliding down a line in a harness. I can envision a similar setup for tall (even REALLY tall) buildings. I've done vertical descents on belayed lines that felt at first like a dead fall, but wound up putting my tootsies on the ground like I had taken a small step. I don't think that a sprained ankle or broken leg would be a bad tradeoff against burning to death, and some sort of automated belay system shouldn't be that hard to set up.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

There are reports of people jumping while holding hands.

Wow. That's heartbreaking.

Why didn't they try and make a rope out of curtains and other materials and abseil down to a floor or two below? Stairway A was still viable in the tower the second plane hit because it hit at an angle. Only two men made their way down to safety from floors above the impact zone. They went down hundred of flights of stairs and left the building a few minutes before it collapsed (amazingly, because they had no idea it was going to collapse, they stopped to make phone calls to loved ones on a floor with working phones). One of these two men was only one floor up from the floor the plane hit ( ). He saw the plane coming at him and jumped under his desk.

If you care...

Stanley Praimnath - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Stanley Praimnath
Brian Clark - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Unfortunately, there was a rumour that all stairways were blocked, and groups of people (many of whom Brian Clark and Praimnath passed on their way down) were heading up to the roof, expecting to be rescued by helicopter, or to wait out the fire in the open air. But the doors to the roof were locked.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

There are better options to parachutes. Emergency evacuation from tall air traffic control towers is by sliding down a line in a harness. I can envision a similar setup for tall (even REALLY tall) buildings. I've done vertical descents on belayed lines that felt at first like a dead fall, but wound up putting my tootsies on the ground like I had taken a small step. I don't think that a sprained ankle or broken leg would be a bad tradeoff against burning to death, and some sort of automated belay system shouldn't be that hard to set up.

Yeah, I thought about that. Didn't realise it could be used for buildings that tall.

[PB2K]

why were there no helicopters at the roofs? as far as i can see only many brave firemen went up the stairs, but i havent seen a single helicopter in a rescue attempt

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by PB2K 

why were there no helicopters at the roofs? as far as i can see only many brave firemen went up the stairs, but i havent seen a single helicopter in a rescue attempt

Smoke and heat.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by PB2K 

why were there no helicopters at the roofs? as far as i can see only many brave firemen went up the stairs, but i havent seen a single helicopter in a rescue attempt

View the documentary posted above. Clearly shows why.

Besides, all entry to the roof was blocked off.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by PB2K 

why were there no helicopters at the roofs? as far as i can see only many brave firemen went up the stairs, but i havent seen a single helicopter in a rescue attempt

Fires cause updrafts that make helicopter flight difficult, if not impossible. A BIG fire causes REALLY big updrafts which would have made it impossible to get helicopters anywhere near the site, let alone near enough the roof to pick people up.

[iranfromthezoo]

radio antenna on top of the tower one also.

[Golden Halo]

I agree with what was said about it being a concious decision to jump rather then burn. I also agree some people just thought/saw the pain and hell that existed in the tower and wanted to get out.

[SSharon]

I wonder if there was also a thought of if I die I will be taking my own life rather than dying directly from the acts of terrorism. A last act to show freedom of personal choice if you will.

I think I would jump rather than burn.

[Buckaroo]

iranfromthezoo explained it best in his post above.

[centerchannel68]

Adrenalin junkies?

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

Adrenalin junkies?

Tsk tsk tsk.

[Troll]

I don't think anyone took a conscious decision to die by jumping out of the window. I don't think anyone thought, "I'd rather die jumping out the window than being burnt alive." People aren't programmed like that. People are programmed to survive. As long as there is a sliver of hope, no matter how infantismal, that you can survive, you'll go for that option. They went out of the windows because it represented a chance to survive not the relief of death. Their motivation was to run from death not towards it.

I think most of them would have fallen trying to climb down the outside of the building. The problem is that they were told that the safest option was to stay put so by the time they realised that they had to get out, they probably had not prepared for an exit via the windows. If they'd known that it would become necessary to leave via the windows, they may have tied fabric together and made ropes and then tried to get out via other floors or done any number of other things. In some cases, that might not have been an option and those people might have jumped because it was the only option left to them. Still, I doubt they had chosen between two forms of death in their minds. I think they were trying to survive and clung to the hope that maybe something would save them if they jumped.

As far as parachute systems etc. go, what you have to remember is that there's potential for killing not only the people that are escaping, but people on the ground too. The jumpers hampered the rescue effort because fire fighters and victims risked being killed by falling bodies. They had to reroute the exits from the Towers. I would think the last thing you'd want is thousands of amateur base-jumpers crashing into the ground when you're trying to get people on lower floors out and away from the building.

[DigitalEl]

Quick, peripherally relevant trivia.

What is the formula for surviving severe (third degree) burns?

PERCENTAGE OF BODY BURNED + VICTIM'S AGE = ________

If the number is > 100, the victim will most certainly die.

Of course, there are exceptions, but it's a good general rule.

[design219]

I will obey this rule always.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by Rumor 

blah

GM thanks you for advertising.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by design219 

I will obey this rule always.

If I ever find myself in a fire at 50, I will be sure to leave when only 45 percent of my body is severely burnt.

It's comforting to know that, seeing as I'm only 27, I can afford for about 73 percent my body to be scalded, which should give me a bit of time to put things in order before evacuating.

[malvolio]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

There are better options to parachutes. Emergency evacuation from tall air traffic control towers is by sliding down a line in a harness. I can envision a similar setup for tall (even REALLY tall) buildings. I've done vertical descents on belayed lines that felt at first like a dead fall, but wound up putting my tootsies on the ground like I had taken a small step. I don't think that a sprained ankle or broken leg would be a bad tradeoff against burning to death, and some sort of automated belay system shouldn't be that hard to set up.

I worked one summer in a resort hotel that was built during the 1800's. We lowly staffers had rooms on the top (3rd) floor.
The place didn't have fire escapes. What it did have in each room was a length of rope wound around a spring-loaded pulley. In case of fire, you were supposed to grab the rope and jump out the window.
Luckily, I never had to use it. The one in my room looked like its last maintenance had been done around 1872.

[Timo]

Long before the attack, Robert Pinsky (former Poet Lauriate) had this description of another disaster, similar in this specific way. An excerpt from Shirt

...The code. The infamous blaze

At the Triangle Factory in nineteen-eleven.
One hundred and forty-six died in the flames
On the ninth floor, no hydrants, no fire escapes—

The witness in a building across the street
Who watched how a young man helped a girl to step
Up to the windowsill, then held her out

Away from the masonry wall and let her drop.
And then another. As if he were helping them up
To enter a streetcar, and not eternity.

A third before he dropped her put her arms
Around his neck and kissed him. Then he held
Her into space, and dropped her. Almost at once

He stepped up to the sill himself, his jacket flared
And fluttered up from his shirt as he came down,
Air filling up the legs of his gray trousers—

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

GM thanks you for advertising.

What the hell are you talking about?

[ApeInTheShell]

You can't be serious about this being a problem solving exercise. This wasn't an event to be analyzed and organized into a neat little package so you could feel at ease.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by ApeInTheShell 

You can't be serious about this being a problem solving exercise. This wasn't an event to be analyzed and organized into a neat little package so you could feel at ease.

So because an event is tragic we should be forbidden from approaching it in a logical way?

I disagree. This is an event to be analyzed and organized, all the more so for being tragic.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by Rumor 

What the hell are you talking about?

Your signature is an advertisment for a 2 hour long GM advertisment.

[design219]

Yeah, more out of the blue controversy!

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

Your signature is an advertisment for a 2 hour long GM advertisment.

Um, ok. Leave me out of your diatribe.