[lil'babykitten]

This is currently a topic being explored in depth by the BBC and so far the articles I have read and the programs I have watched have been very interesting. So firstly I'd like to encourage you all to read this in it's entirety:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/3190931.stm

There are many points I want to raise for discussion from this article but it's getting late. So for now, please pick out any part that grabs your attention and DISCUSS!

Now to respond to moki, since his comments are very relevant to this discussion......

Originally posted by moki:
Agreed, Islam is not represented by the extremist views that the likes of al qaeda hold. However, it's quite clear that Islamic extremist groups are quite pervasive, and they are nesting under the banner of Islam.

It's really more than just a PR problem; I'm rather surprised Islamic countries aren't doing more to route out the problem from within. Ultimately, it poses as much of a danger to them as to anyone else.

Whilst I will agree the problem is more than just PR related, the significance of this problem should not be underestimated. The media is the biggest and most effective way of getting world attention on such issues and for reasons unknown to me at this point, muslim condemnation of the extremists is not getting enough, if any, coverage.

I think, actually, this issue of condemnation of these attacks does put the real muslim religious leaders in a very difficult as well as an unfair position. Attacks against muslims and muslim countries are very common lately, take Afghanistan, Iraq and the very long conflict between Israel and Palestine. So whilst religious leaders must seem to show their support and care for their fellow muslim brothers and sisters dying daily, they must also condemn those, that in their view are also fighting to help their fellow muslims, albeit in a much distorted manner. Therefore religious leaders are in a very difficult position. Their primary job is simply to preach Islamic teachings and run the mosques yet they are being dragged in to politics.

By no means do I wish to cite an excuse here, but just call for a little more understanding on why it is actually an extremely difficult situation for them.
There is nothing that upsets me more than to watch Islam, a religion I follow, become so tainted. Indeed I believe the real religious leaders are investigating and seeking steps to rectify the situation or at least put things in to perspective.

[moki]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Therefore religious leaders are in a very difficult position. Their primary job is simply to preach Islamic teachings and run the mosques yet they are being dragged in to politics.

Given that fundamentalist Islamic leaders are using politics with impunity, I think they have no choice to do the same.

There is nothing that upsets me more than to watch Islam, a religion I follow, become so tainted. Indeed I believe the real religious leaders are investigating and seeking steps to rectify the situation or at least put things in to perspective.

The unfortunate thing is that Islam is truly becoming tainted. There are Islamic extremist education and training camps in most Islamic countries across the world.

Women in particular are not treated well in most Islamic countries I've visited, and it's done as a matter of course. In Malaysia, the vast majority of Malays wear Sarangs that cover their hair/face, despite the scorchingly hot weather there. Men are allowed by law to have 4 wives.

Yet there is nothing that I know of Islam that prevents it from modernity, any more than other religions. The question is, why isn't it happening?

Here's a minor example for you. The PAS controls two states in Malaysia. In those states, it's strict Islamic law; they are trying to win yet more seats in the Malaysian government. Big deal, you say?

Right now, under Malaysian law, if you wish to convert from Islam to another religion, you must go through a year of "religious training" before you're allowed to do so. Even then, you'll be somewhat of an outcast, but fair enough.

Under the strict Islamic law the PAS are attempting to extend to all of Malaysia, the penalty for converting from Islam to another religion is death.

Keep in mind, Malaysia is one of the most modern Islamic countries out there, and they do co-exist with a fairly large Chinese/Indian minority. The situation is worse in many other countries around the world.

The list of countries with Islamic militant extremists is huge. Philippines, Indonesia, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Malaysia, Thailand (despite being majority Buddhist), Sudan, Syria, Lebanon, and so on and so forth.

This is why it isn't just a PR problem -- like it or not, Islam is being co-opted by by dozens of groups the world over. It really isn't enough to say "Islam is a religion of peace" -- because no matter how true that is (and I do believe it to be true), there is absolutely a problem brewing.

[thunderous_funker]

This may seem non-sequitir, but I think it has direct bearing on the topic.

John Krakauer's new book Under the Banner of Heaven takes on the subject of religious fundamentalism and how it breeds political and social crisis.

His subject is the Lafferty brothers who, in Utah in the 1980s, murdered their sister-in-law and 15-month old neice according to direct revelation they got from God. The Lafferty's were Mormon Fundamentalists whose particular brand of religious confusion was based on the pure, literal interpretation of the early teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (the mainstream Mormon church).

LDS Fundamentalists preach a politicized, radicalized but Doctrinally pure version of the ideas presented by Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. That is what makes them so pernicious. Technically, they are conducting themselves in accordance to the "true" teachings of these widely respected religious leaders. They gain followers from the mainstream LDS church because of this and because their brand of politics often appeals to angry, disenfranchised Mormons.

As I see it, they operate almost identically to the radical Islamists and offer the same challenge to mainstream Islam. I highly recommend the book to everyone who is interested in the topic at hand. It's a really illuminating and terrifying look into the mindset of the Fundamentalist who is willing to kill for their religion.

P.S. You may have heard of the kidnapping of Salt Lake City girl Elizabeth Smart which dominated the media for a while. She was returned to the family miraculously. It was under-reported that the man who took her was a Mormon Fundamentalist who successfully brainwashed the girl in a matter of days by mixing mainstream Mormon doctrine she was familiar with (as a devout Mormon from a devout family) with his own brand of fundamentalism based on direct Revelation from God. Had the girl not been raised in a religion that is open to such ideas as revelation and Divine Authority (as well as the divine principle of polygamy) she would never have been so succeptible to the charms of this self-proclamed prophet who kept her in plain sight for months. She never tried to escape and even when they were caught, she denied her identity and begged that her captors not be harmed.

[Nonsuch]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
P.S. You may have heard of the kidnapping of Salt Lake City girl Elizabeth Smart which dominated the media for a while. She was returned to the family miraculously. It was under-reported that the man who took her was a Mormon Fundamentalist who successfully brainwashed the girl in a matter of days by mixing mainstream Mormon doctrine she was familiar with (as a devout Mormon from a devout family) with his own brand of fundamentalism based on direct Revelation from God. Had the girl not been raised in a religion that is open to such ideas as revelation and Divine Authority (as well as the divine principle of polygamy) she would never have been so succeptible to the charms of this self-proclamed prophet who kept her in plain sight for months.

Yes, it seemed very much to be an issue no one wanted to think about too closely, mostly I think for fear of offending Mormons and other devout Christians. "As long as she's safe and home again, that's all that matters" seemed to be how the issue ended up.

[Uday's Carcass]

I've read the book.

Seriously, your title is a book. I read it years ago for a uni class.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by moki:
Women in particular are not treated well in most Islamic countries I've visited, and it's done as a matter of course. In Malaysia, the vast majority of Malays wear Sarangs that cover their hair/face, despite the scorchingly hot weather there. Men are allowed by law to have 4 wives.

Encouraging women to cover up is not mistreating them. Islam teaches us to behave in a modest and respectful way to yourself and others. Women are encouraged to wear clothing that does not draw attention to themselves by males for the wrong reasons. There is nothing in the Quran that says women must be forced to cover their heads. It encourages them to do so out of decency and respect for themselves. It is a wide misconception that simply because a woman covers her hair and body, she is oppressed.
In actual fact if you have ever touched the materials of the clothing muslim women wear in the summer months, it is very thin material that is not overly insulating.
FWIW, men are also encouraged to dress decently i.e not to wear shorts or walk around the streets, shirtless, as some do in the summer.

As for the men allowed four wives, this was a very old tradition that the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) used at a time when Islam was just developing. Having lots of children would ensure that the religion would spread. But, if a man were to have more than one wife, he had to treat each of them exactly equally. Since that can be a very difficult thing to do, it is not widely encouraged and indeed nor is it widely practiced nowadays.

[macvillage.net]

It really is a misconception:

In most countries, they aren't *required*, but *encouraged* to coverup...

they can't walk around with their bellies hanging out (walking down the streets of NYC, I wish some women here were told they couldn't wear that clothing)....

It's not religious either. The dress is purely cultural, not religious. There is nothing expressly in Islam that requires excessive cover. Only modesty (which is a broad term).

In many countries, they do much the same as here in the US. I know in Iran, even with alcohol technically banned, there are indeed clubs (it's not an enforced ban unless there is direct problems, as a result). There are also women dressed much like a women in the US, just not much leg showing, or clevage. They dress more modest.

Some older individuals, choose to dress much more conservatively.

You see this here in the US as well. Older people dressed in more traditional clothing, while younger generations, more conservative, yet not nearly dressed like their parents.

Having met quite a few people from the region, it's rather isolated (with the exception of Taliban ruled Afganistan) for these traditions to be enforced.

Some individuals look down on not covering up. Just like people here look down on a young girl dressed "inapropriately for her age". But the US media makes some isolated cases into a blanket for the region.

Oh yea... men aren't required to have beards in most countries either... that's optional, but many do for tradition, as it's a manly thing to do. Just like here, men tend to get their drivers license the day they can... becuase a real man drives the moment he can.

Women most often can not vote, or in many cases drive.

But it's very different in most countries than what the media portrays.

Of course there are exceptions to this... but the general rule, is conservative.

America only 2 generations ago was the same way. Look at old swimwear. Look at old pictures of places like Cony Island. Look how everyone dressed up to go on a plane, or shopping.

Americans never valued a face much. That's why Americans often feel awkward on business with foreigners. They feel out of place, and perfer to do things via phone. While in other cultures, meeting face to face is very important. Many sitcoms have played on this (the Japaneese clients create awkward situation for employee).

Face in many cultures is much more sacred than in American society.

You can see this also in the fact that most older Europian's won't stare into a Camera when a picture is being taken... "it's brutal", they often say.

Americans love staring into a camera. They take pictures of faces all the time. It's nothing special... just how it's done.

Some say the eyes are the gateway to the soul. Some feel the face is the gateway to the body. The Face is more precious than genitalia.

That's the main idea behind women covering their face. Keeping what's special about someone (their inner self, as well as their beauty) to a select few.


How they do it, is highly subjective. Some just wear a scarf, some cover completely. Some even avoid eye contact with men (this is based on some tradition, don't know much about it).

Some women, are much more open about it, and don't mind being seen, though won't stare into a camera.


It's quite interesting how something so simple is interpreted totally different by cultures.

To Americans a face is one thing, to another group, it's something completely different.

[lil'babykitten]

Great post macvillage. You are spot on.

I'd agree also that the media do tend to blow cases of oppression toward women in the middle east way out of proportion.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Great post macvillage. You are spot on.

I'd agree also that the media do tend to blow cases of oppression toward women in the middle east way out of proportion.

No really, it's bad there for women. I promise you.

[moki]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Encouraging women to cover up is not mistreating them.

Forcing women to do something that they do not wish to do is oppression, yes? I've talked with a number of women in said countries who are indeed forced to wear such clothing; forced by societal pressures.

They don't want to be covered, yet they must, for fear of risking the wrath of the society they live in. Say what you will, I call that oppression.

We won't even talk about countries such as Saudi Arabia, who claim to interpret the Koran strictly, and women can't drive, can't go out without a male family member with them, etc.

In actual fact if you have ever touched the materials of the clothing muslim women wear in the summer months, it is very thin material that is not overly insulating.
FWIW, men are also encouraged to dress decently i.e not to wear shorts or walk around the streets, shirtless, as some do in the summer.

I have touched the clothing. In the 100 degree heat, with almost equally high humidity, it's pretty brutal to be wearing such clothing.

As for the men allowed four wives, this was a very old tradition that the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) used at a time when Islam was just developing. Having lots of children would ensure that the religion would spread. But, if a man were to have more than one wife, he had to treat each of them exactly equally. Since that can be a very difficult thing to do, it is not widely encouraged and indeed nor is it widely practiced nowadays.

I don't know where you're living, but I don't think it is correct to say that it isn't widely practiced today. In every Islamic country I've been in, any man that has the money to afford it has more than one wife.

You can say this is a cultural issue that could be respected, and I agree that the finer points can be argued. However, when taken overall, I also think it's very fair to say that women in Islamic cultures are simply second class citizens compared to the men.

Here's one small example. We were waiting on a tour bus in Kuala Lumpur, a modern city, in a modern, multi-ethnic Islamic country. A Malay man and woman, in their mid-20's were on the tour bus with us, when an older man drove up, got out of his car, and started screaming at them.

The woman came out of the bus, and the guy (her father, as it turns out) was screaming at her. Mind you, this bus was parked on a busy street, in front of a prominent hotel, in the largest city in Malaysia.

He then started grabbing her by the hair, and began beating the living crap out of her. Everyone looked on impassively; the hotel security guards, the tour operators, the people on the busses. Only myself, and the two German girls in the back were shocked and outraged.

The German girls said to me "Should we do something? This is just wrong. This would never happen in Germany" And they were right. However, I pointed out that we were not in Germany, nor in the US, and we shouldn't interfere. Regardless, if it got any worse, I probably would have.

The sad thing about it all is that the girl didn't cry, she didn't resist. She was quite used to having the crap beat out of her. This went on for a good 20 minutes or so, with him alternating between yelling at her, and grabbing her by the hair and beating her.

The mother was there, too, and you'd think she would have some sympathy for the girl, but no, she was fully supportive, likely because she was treated the same, and believed it was right and just. She came on the bus, got her daughter's things, and simply said "family business" as she passed by us.

No one except us was shocked or affected by this; everyone just sort of shrugged it off. I have seen similar things in other Islamic countries, and I stand by my position that women are absolutely second-class citizens, and the Koran is often used to justify that, rightly or wrongly.

[moki]

Women's rights aside, let's steer this back on topic. You say Islam is a religion of peace; I don't doubt that for the majority it is.

However, as I have mentioned, you definitely have more than just a PR problem when you have fundamental extremist training camps/schools in dozens of countries around the world.

Simply saying "Islam is peaceful" is not enough. Muslims the world over need to put an end to this dangerous fundamentalism, because it threatens them, too.

[thunderous_funker]

Historically, the US has had considerably more problems with Chrisitan Fundamentalists than it does with Muslim Fundamentalists.

For one, Muslim Fundamentalists aren't typically attracted to the idea of living in the US while Christian Fundamentalists often operate under the gross misconception that the US is a "promised land" which has been granted them by God. That makes for very very big problems.

Our problems with Muslim Fundamentalists are mostly tied up in dealing with foreigners over foreign issues, rather than domestic terrorists bent on domestic issues.

[Logic]

moki:

You and others claimed Islam says women should be treated this way. That was the original claim. Now you have backtracked to those cultures.

Both I and lbk have shown you Islam is not what causes this and this thread is about Islam and the west. It is not about Middle East and South East Asian culture and the west.

So why do you continue with this?

Islam does not force women to wear the Burqa, Islam does not say that you should beat your wife, Islam does not say that women are second class citizens. Got it?

[christ]

Originally posted by moki:
Forcing women to do something that they do not wish to do is oppression, yes? ...

Whilst this may be true, that is because forcing anyone to do something that they do not wish to is oppression.

Paying taxes?

Most American citizens do not wish to pay taxes. They are therefore oppressed.

But, 'oppression' appears to be in the eye of the beholder.

I am tickled that a non-Muslim male (moki) is telling a Muslim female (ms. kitten) that she is oppressed, and she is forcibly arguing that she is not.

This, in a nutshell, is why America's views are often not respected around the world, they seem to believe that they have some sort of (divine?) right to tell people what is right for them, when it is none of their business.

[Logic]

Originally posted by moki:
Women's rights aside, let's steer this back on topic. You say Islam is a religion of peace; I don't doubt that for the majority it is.

However, as I have mentioned, you definitely have more than just a PR problem when you have fundamental extremist training camps/schools in dozens of countries around the world.

Simply saying "Islam is peaceful" is not enough. Muslims the world over need to put an end to this dangerous fundamentalism, because it threatens them, too.

Would you say that Christianity is a violent religion? A christian nation has started two wars in the recent years against two non christian nations. Is it christianity or the people that are to blame? I haven't seen too many complaints from the US public. Does that mean that you are not doing enough?

What more do you want? Shall I dig up every verse from the Quran that talks about wars? Since Islam is the topic and not the people.

This thread is about Islam, it is not about what people in predominantly islamic countries do, it is not what the different regimes in islamic countries do. It is a thread to show you that OBL and others like him are in violation of every aspect of Islam. It is a thread to show you who believe Islam is what causes this that it is not.

[Logic]

Originally posted by christ:
I am tickled that a non-Muslim male (moki) is telling a Muslim female (ms. kitten) that she is oppressed, and she is forcibly arguing that she is not.

This, in a nutshell, is why America's views are often not respected around the world, they seem to believe that they have some sort of (divine?) right to tell people what is right for them, when it is none of their business.

: golf clap :

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by christ:
I am tickled that a non-Muslim male (moki) is telling a Muslim female (ms. kitten) that she is oppressed, and she is forcibly arguing that she is not.

This, in a nutshell, is why America's views are often not respected around the world, they seem to believe that they have some sort of (divine?) right to tell people what is right for them, when it is none of their business.

:clap clap clap clap clap clap clap:

[christ]

Originally posted by moki:
Women's rights aside, let's steer this back on topic. You say Islam is a religion of peace; I don't doubt that for the majority it is.

However, as I have mentioned, you definitely have more than just a PR problem when you have fundamental extremist training camps/schools in dozens of countries around the world.

Simply saying "Islam is peaceful" is not enough. Muslims the world over need to put an end to this dangerous fundamentalism, because it threatens them, too.

This is, again, all true. But as someone that comes from the UK, I have seen extremist Christians in action, in and around Northern Ireland.

The tripe that issues from mealy-mouthed preachers from both sides (Protestant and Catholic in this case) in order that they don't alienate their flocks while they are attempting to justify the position of religion vs. terror is quite extraordinary.

This fundamentalism is not limited to Islam, and the lack of vocal repudiation of the practitioners of terror by the practitioners of religion spreads to most religions.

In my view.

[moki]

Originally posted by christ:
I am tickled that a non-Muslim male (moki) is telling a Muslim female (ms. kitten) that she is oppressed, and she is forcibly arguing that she is not.

This, in a nutshell, is why America's views are often not respected around the world, they seem to believe that they have some sort of (divine?) right to tell people what is right for them, when it is none of their business.

Straw man meets red herring. Interesting. :/

Nonsense. I am not telling HER she is oppressed, I am telling her that most women in Islamic countries are, and are second class citizens. I stand by that.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by Logic:
This thread is about Islam, it is not about what people in predominantly islamic countries do, it is not what the different regimes in islamic countries do. It is a thread to show you that OBL and others like him are in violation of every aspect of Islam. It is a thread to show you who believe Islam is what causes this that it is not.

:clap clap clap clap clap clap clap:

I shall respond in further detail, once my hands have overcome the oppression of being forcibly clapped together so many times.

[eklipse]

Originally posted by moki:
I have touched the clothing. In the 100 degree heat, with almost equally high humidity, it's pretty brutal to be wearing such clothing.

Yeah, all those stupid Arab men in the deserts with their long flowing robes must be freakin' nutcases!!

[moki]

Originally posted by Logic:
Islam does not force women to wear the Burqa, Islam does not say that you should beat your wife, Islam does not say that women are second class citizens. Got it?

I got that long ago, just as Islam does not offer the justifications that al Qeada ascribes to it. Nevertheless, in both cases, the Koran is held up as the justification for the treatment of women, and the militancy we're seeing.

Nevertheless, women are treated more as second class citizens in Islamic countries than anywhere else on the planet. Nevertheless, militant training camps are widespread in Islamic countries.

To say that the Koran doesn't justify these things is nice, and true, but it's also a bit of hand-washing. The fact is that Islamic countries have problems with militancy, and with their treatment of women. They also have a problem of Imams interpreting the Koran to justify both of these actions.

[Logic]

Originally posted by eklipse:
Yeah, all those stupid Arab men in the deserts with their long flowing robes must freakin' nutcases!!

Yes, this man is a damn fool! Fool I tell you!!!

[moki]

Originally posted by Logic:
This thread is about Islam, it is not about what people in predominantly islamic countries do, it is not what the different regimes in islamic countries do. It is a thread to show you that OBL and others like him are in violation of every aspect of Islam. It is a thread to show you who believe Islam is what causes this that it is not.

I'm glad that you feel OBL and others are in violation of every aspect of Islam, and I'd agree with you. However, as I have been attempting to state here (with little success), Islam *IS* getting a bad name because of the widespread militancy.

Saying Islam is the religion of peace is not enough; Islamic societies and Islamic countries need to be vocal about their lack of support of OBL and their ilk, and actually do something about it by removing these Islamic fundamentalist training camps that are harbored with a glance the other way in just about every Islamic country I can think of.

[moki]

Originally posted by Logic:
Yes, this man is a damn fool! Fool I tell you!!!

No, but you are being more than a tad foolish in comparing the wether/climate in Syria to Malaysia. I'd like to note that there are no deserts in Malaysia, thus keeping the sand out of your eyes/hair is not needed.

I'd also like to note that the weather in Malaysia is a few wet, humid heat, not the kind of dry heat in the middle east where this kind of garb is appropriate.

Are you done with the silly bashing now?

[eklipse]

Originally posted by Logic:
Yes, this man is a damn fool! Fool I tell you!!!

Forget the man, look at the sheep!!! What kind of stupid animal would be wearing wool in that climate!!! Seems Arab oppression isn't limited to women, those inhumane bastards force their sheep to wear heavy clothing too!

[moki]

Originally posted by eklipse:
Forget the man, look at the sheep!!! What kind of stupid animal would be wearing wool in that climate!!! Seems Arab oppression isn't limited to women, those inhumane bastards force their sheep to wear heavy clothing too!

*sigh* The puerile level of debate here is simply astounding. I suppose you'd have no problem with people in your country *telling* you what kind of clothing you are going to wear?

[Logic]

Originally posted by moki:
*sigh* The puerile level of debate here is simply astounding. I suppose you'd have no problem with people in your country *telling* you what kind of clothing you are going to wear?

Yes, I'm not allowed to walk around naked! Send your troops and put up trade embargos against the oppressive Icelandic regime!!

FREE ME!!!!!!!!




Disclaimer: I will soon return to the level of debate that you want. I'm in a silly mood at the moment.

[christ]

Originally posted by moki:
... The PAS controls two states in Malaysia. In those states, it's strict Islamic law; they are trying to win yet more seats in the Malaysian government. Big deal, you say?

Right now, under Malaysian law, if you wish to convert from Islam to another religion, you must go through a year of "religious training" before you're allowed to do so. Even then, you'll be somewhat of an outcast, but fair enough.

Under the strict Islamic law the PAS are attempting to extend to all of Malaysia, the penalty for converting from Islam to another religion is death...

I don't know anything about Malaysia, so this question is asked in all honesty: How are the PAS "trying to win yet more seats in the Malaysian government"?

In elections?

If that is the case, it would seem that the problem is that these foreigners can't be trusted to choose the right people to represent them. Horrible thing this democracy. A regime change may be in order.

[eklipse]

Originally posted by moki:
*sigh* The puerile level of debate here is simply astounding. I suppose you'd have no problem with people in your country *telling* you what kind of clothing you are going to wear?

Of course I would, but, that is not the issue here, if I were living in a society where it was considered common decency to dress a certain way I would follow that code out of respect.

As others have said, 'oppression' of women in predominantly Muslim countries is largely overblown by ignorant foreigners who don't understand other cultures and their customs.

[christ]

Originally posted by moki:
Forcing women to do something that they do not wish to do is oppression, yes? I've talked with a number of women in said countries who are indeed forced to wear such clothing; forced by societal pressures.

They don't want to be covered, yet they must, for fear of risking the wrath of the society they live in. Say what you will, I call that oppression....

Peer pressure can be a real pain.

I've talked to youths in America who don't want to take drugs/ drink beer/ go to work/ watch the Simpsons, but they are forced to do these things; forced by societal pressures.

This is also oppression (in your terminology)

And we won't go into racial/ homosexual societal pressures.

Do we call Christianity to book for this? No - America is a 'secular society', so it can't be their religion - why do we assume that the societal pressures in foreign places is due solely to Islam?

[Nicko]

Originally posted by Logic:
moki:

You and others claimed Islam says women should be treated this way. That was the original claim. Now you have backtracked to those cultures.

Both I and lbk have shown you Islam is not what causes this and this thread is about Islam and the west. It is not about Middle East and South East Asian culture and the west.

So why do you continue with this?

Islam does not force women to wear the Burqa, Islam does not say that you should beat your wife, Islam does not say that women are second class citizens. Got it?

I totally agree. The real problem is that a minority of radicals are using Islam as a veicle for their insane agendas.

Oppression of women in Islamic countries is a problem. When I was visiting Pakistan there was always atleast one story in the daily newspaper about how a young woman got acid thrown on her face by a member of her family for doing/offending someone. Ofcourse this is an extreme example.

I also knew of many women who attended university, got their degree....only to later marry and stay at home as a simple housewife. Are they oppressed or just following their traditions? Frankly I find it oppressive, but not everyone does.

IMO the KEY to improving the situation is education (especially of women). Large portions of the population in these countries are still illiterate! Boys get preference over girls to attend school.


I visited villages around Gilgit in the mountains of northern Pakistan that have barely changed in over 1000 years! Some of these places are truely frozen in time.

Progress is painfully slow, but I believe it will continue and moderation will continue to gain a greater foothold.

[christ]

Originally posted by Nicko:
...When I was visiting Pakistan there was always atleast one story in the daily newspaper about how a young woman got acid thrown on her face by a member of her family for doing/offending someone...

I also have heard stories like this, and I find this much more distressing than the burqa issue.

What is it about some countries where this sort of activity can go unpunished? Is it because of the cultural attitude to women or does it have its roots in religion?

Can cultural issues be divorced from religious ones? Is Islam the wrong target here, and what should be debated is culture?

Can we, in all honesty, change the culture of another country because we disagree with it? (and if so can they change ours if they don't like it?)

[moki]

Originally posted by Logic:
Would you say that Christianity is a violent religion? A christian nation has started two wars in the recent years against two non christian nations. Is it christianity or the people that are to blame? I haven't seen too many complaints from the US public. Does that mean that you are not doing enough?

You're making some leaps of logic here that Carl Lewis would find impressive.

Firstly, though the US was founded on Judeo-Christian values, I think it's a mistake to call the US a Christian nation. People of all faiths live here, including a sizable portion of people with no faith at all. Remember the 10 Commandments that were just removed from the courthouse?

Meanwhile, it is not a mistake to call most Islamic countries Islamic countries -- the exceptions are few and far between, with Turkey notably being one of them. Many of these countries are indeed run by religious law, and government and religion are by definition intertwined.

You also do not see Christians marching in the street burning Saudi Arabian flags, chanting "Death to the Arabs", nor to you hear about the Pope (or any arch-bishops) issuing forth religious decrees to kill the corrupt Muslims. Yet you do see the opposite in dozens of Islamic countries.

Again, there is a large disconnect between Islam as the religion of peace, and the way Islam is being utilized as a tool for radicalizing people across the globe.

[moki]

Originally posted by Nicko:
Oppression of women in Islamic countries is a problem.

Indeed, it very much is, despite the naysayers here. I have been to numerous Islamic countries, and I've talked to women who live there. The picture is not as rosy as people here are attempting to paint, not by a long shot.

[moki]

Originally posted by eklipse:
Of course I would, but, that is not the issue here, if I were living in a society where it was considered common decency to dress a certain way I would follow that code out of respect.

Aha -- but the code isn't something women like or want -- it is dictated by the men. The justification being that it is to "protect" them, and their modesty.

One wonders what that says about the men in said countries, if we're to believe the women need to be covered head to toe, otherwise they'll be raped. I don't believe that's true at all; I think it's just an excuse to oppress these women.

Just like the mother who condoned her husbands beating of his daughter, you'll find that women who are born and bred in such an environment tend to go along with it. That doesn't change what it is.

Who do you think are the ones who are railing against the Barbie doll, calling it "Jewish corruption"? It's the men. As plainly stated in that article, they don't want their women getting any ideas that they'd actually be able to choose what clothing they can wear.

[christ]

Originally posted by moki:
...Meanwhile, it is not a mistake to call most Islamic countries Islamic countries ...

So your point is...?

Is it that these countries should be forced to separate Church from State, and follow the American model?

I think that you need to understand that even if these countries can be referred to as 'Islamic countries' (and I don't see why you would call Turkey an exception) there is a difference between culture and religion. Just because the culture allows/ encourages/ enforces somrthing, this is not necessarily a failing of the religion.

(and maybe 'culture' is the wrong word - I'm sure Simey and the PoliSci crowd have a better word for it)

[moki]

Originally posted by christ:
So your point is...?

Is it that these countries should be forced to separate Church from State, and follow the American model?

I do think a secular model is more fair to everyone who lives in the country; that is, people are free to practice whatever religion they like, and that religion isn't dictated by the government. I find that oppressive as well.

That, of course, is my biased point of view.

My point was, though, that Logic calling the US a Christian nation isn't particularly accurate. However, calling these Islamic nations Islamic is accurate.

[Nicko]

Originally posted by moki:
Indeed, it very much is, despite the naysayers here. I have been to numerous Islamic countries, and I've talked to women who live there. The picture is not as rosy as people here are attempting to paint, not by a long shot.

Well, IMO the problem is not with the religion, the problem is poverty, corruption (especially of the leaders!), and the radicals who only use the religion as a platform to deliver their extremist views.

religion vs religion is disingenious. If the prospects of normal people in all these countries can improve, everything else will follow.

[christ]

Originally posted by moki:
Aha -- but the code isn't something women like or want -- it is dictated by the men...

Again, a cultural problem, shared by 'western' countries until relatively recently.

Technically, it is probably being dictated by the rulers. These just happen to be all (or mostly, and traditionally) men. Does this mean that you dislike this malecentric trait of the countries, not Islam at all?

And I ask again, should your American values regarding (so-called) equality of the genders be imposed on those cultures that don't have it?

What would have happened if China had (been strong enough and) invaded the US in 1800 on the pretext that you treated Chinamen as inferiors? Would you have said "Oh, sorry, we see the error of our ways, we must reform", or would you have fought tooth and nail to preserve your culture?

[moki]

Originally posted by christ:
And I ask again, should your American values regarding (so-called) equality of the genders be imposed on those cultures that don't have it?

I guess I don't really see all people having equality is being a value associated with any nation, but rather something that's rather clearly an inherent right that has been suppressed in various cultures throughout history.

[christ]

Originally posted by moki:
My point was, though, that Logic calling the US a Christian nation isn't particularly accurate. However, calling these Islamic nations Islamic is accurate.

OK - I see and I agree.

It may interest you to know that the UK is a Christian country, and we don't seem to suffer from the religious oppression which you fear. In fact our politicians would be treated as unelectable cranks if they relied as much on religion as some of your American politicians do.

[christ]

Originally posted by moki:
I guess I don't really see all people having equality is being a value associated with any nation, but rather something that's rather clearly an inherent right that has been suppressed in various cultures throughout history.

OK, so it is a case of the US imposing its social mores on foreign countries that you are after. (Very few countries have the concept of 'inherent rights' that you have).

Why do you (for example) oppress your under 25s, and not let them drink alcohol?

[moki]

Originally posted by Nicko:
Well, IMO the problem is not with the religion, the problem is poverty, corruption (especially of the leaders!), and the radicals who only use the religion as a platform to deliver their extremist views.

I do agree with that; poverty and corruption do have a lot to do with it.

religion vs religion is disingenious. If the prospects of normal people in all these countries can improve, everything else will follow.

Possibly; but look at a very prosperous Muslim country: Saudi Arabia. Women have fewer rights there any in any other country in the world.

It isn't that simple; Islam is indeed used in a much more fundamental way (some would say "corrupted way") to oppress women, and to radicalize people against anything other than Islam, on a larger scale than any other religion.

This is a problem that needs to be addressed.

[moki]

Originally posted by christ:
OK, so it is a case of the US imposing its social mores on foreign countries that you are after. (Very few countries have the concept of 'inherent rights' that you have).

Why do you (for example) oppress your under 25s, and not let them drink alcohol?

I view things such as drinking alcohol as being cultural issues. I view things such as people being treated equally regardless of gender as being inherent. People are people, regardless of gender, and should not be denied education, be forced what to wear, be the victim of socially condoned violence, etc., just because of their gender.

Perhaps you can call that cultural bias, but I don't see any reason why women should be oppressed the way they are in many Islamic countries.

[christ]

Originally posted by moki:
I view things such as drinking alcohol as being cultural issues. I view things such as people being treated equally regardless of gender as being inherent. People are people, regardless of gender, and should not be denied education, be forced what to wear, be the victim of socially condoned violence, etc., just because of their gender.

Perhaps you can call that cultural bias, but I don't see any reason why women should be oppressed the way they are in many Islamic countries.

I don't think that other countries' cultures are any of my business, and I don't subscribe to the concept of 'inherent rights', so here I guess we will have to agree to differ.

But may I say it has been a pleasure to have a civilized chat with someone about such a potentially incendiary subject!

[moki]

Originally posted by christ:
I don't think that other countries' cultures are any of my business, and I don't subscribe to the concept of 'inherent rights', so here I guess we will have to agree to differ.

Well, again, I think it boils down to whether you think a person is less of a person simply because they are female. I don't see that as being cultural.

Originally posted by christ:
But may I say it has been a pleasure to have a civilized chat with someone about such a potentially incendiary subject!

sama-sama (same to you, in Malay/Indonesian )

[Nicko]

Originally posted by moki:
I do agree with that; poverty and corruption do have a lot to do with it.



Possibly; but look at a very prosperous Muslim country: Saudi Arabia. Women have fewer rights there any in any other country in the world.

It isn't that simple; Islam is indeed used in a much more fundamental way (some would say "corrupted way") to oppress women, and to radicalize people against anything other than Islam, on a larger scale than any other religion.

This is a problem that needs to be addressed.

Than 'any other religion'??? Oh come on now. In the middle ages it could be argued that Islam was more civilized than Christianity! Truely, every religion has been extremist and oppresive at some point in its history. Inquisition anyone? Or how about those Aztecs with their human sacrafices? I have also noticed that cannibalism isn't a popular as it used to be.

It sounds like you are implying that Islam is universally applied in a fundamental way, that simply isn't true.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by moki:
Aha -- but the code isn't something women like or want -- it is dictated by the men. The justification being that it is to "protect" them, and their modesty.

One wonders what that says about the men in said countries, if we're to believe the women need to be covered head to toe, otherwise they'll be raped. I don't believe that's true at all; I think it's just an excuse to oppress these women.

Just like the mother who condoned her husbands beating of his daughter, you'll find that women who are born and bred in such an environment tend to go along with it. That doesn't change what it is.

Who do you think are the ones who are railing against the Barbie doll, calling it "Jewish corruption"? It's the men. As plainly stated in that article, they don't want their women getting any ideas that they'd actually be able to choose what clothing they can wear.

Really, have you considered any of the explanations presented to you in this thread by myself and so many others?

Like I have said, Islam does encourage women to dress modestly. So you would think that those living in these Islamic countries would follow that, would you not?
You seem to want to go on the 'well I've been here and seen this and spoken to all these women' front in dealing with this. Tell me, how representative of the Arab world do you think your stories are? If you want to go that way, well I shall give an example of my experiences as well as from people I have spoken to.

I have a friend who went with her family to Saudi Arabia. when she returned she was so full of love for the country that she soon went back. It was like 'home' for her- and she was born in Pakistan. The women, dressed so modestly, so full of knowledge about Islam so happy living their lives, really struck her. Yes, she had to remain covered from head to toe when walking in the street, but did she have a problem with that? no, because since she is a muslim herself, it makes sense, as it does to me.

I have spend some time in Jordan myself. Here I will talk about the educational system. All the women there are encouraged, and do fully complete their studies there. But, a lot of them do not seek to pursue a career afterward-they usually get married, have children and remain house wives. Here is when I bring in the difference between Islam and culture. It is not the Islamic faith that oppresses women. It is the family tradition followed in the family for many generations. They choose to live that life because they want to. Islam has absolutely nothing to do with it.

It is the same across the Arab world, whether you agree with it or not, this is all about tradition and culture. People have become so embedded in these beliefs that they will enforce them on those, even if they don't wish to follow them. It is not an issue that has any relevance to Islam. This is the misconception too many Westerners have, indeed it is one you have. It is also why relations between the 'East and West' are so strained.

Please understand the distinction between Islam and the tradition and culture.

[eklipse]

Originally posted by moki:
Aha -- but the code isn't something women like or want -- it is dictated by the men. The justification being that it is to "protect" them, and their modesty.

Firstly, many women do like and do want the 'protection' offered by dressing a certain way - for practical reasons, such as the climate, and social reasons such as escaping the staring eye of man (incidentally, a reason why many Western women are converting to Islam). Secondly, to use Logic's exaggeration, running around naked is generally not accepted in most societies, different societies have different levels of tolerance and people living in those societies should respect that.

One wonders what that says about the men in said countries, if we're to believe the women need to be covered head to toe, otherwise they'll be raped. I don't believe that's true at all; I think it's just an excuse to oppress these women.

Whoever said that is an idiot - but I don't think it is an excuse to oppress women.

Just like the mother who condoned her husbands beating of his daughter, you'll find that women who are born and bred in such an environment tend to go along with it. That doesn't change what it is.

This goes on in every society - it's not limited to or particularly abundant in Islamic societies.

Who do you think are the ones who are railing against the Barbie doll, calling it "Jewish corruption"? It's the men. As plainly stated in that article, they don't want their women getting any ideas that they'd actually be able to choose what clothing they can wear.

People will always try to attach political significance to the most obscure things but the issue with the Barbie dolls is again cultural - a model of a Western woman is not going to go down well in an Arab country, it probably wouldn't sell well either.

How do you think 'Taliban Barbie' would go down in America?