[icruise]

Originally Posted by goMac 

The AppleTV does 1080i Eug. I don't know whether it outputs 1080i at 60 fps or 30 fps. If it did 60, as you said, it would be able to do 1080p quality.

Really? I thought it was only 720p. The tech specs do mention that you can use it with a 1080i-compatible TV though, so I'm not sure what that means.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by icruise 

Really? The tech specs don't mention 1080i.

I heard it does 1080i also.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by icruise 

Really? I thought it was only 720p. The tech specs do mention that you can use it with a 1080i-compatible TV though, so I'm not sure what that means.

On the setup screen you can tell it to run at 1080i.

[Eug]

Yes, you can do 1080i, but that's a scaled resolution. The max AVC settings are:

H.264 and protected H.264 (from iTunes Store): Up to 5 Mbps, Progressive Main Profile (CAVLC) with AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps (maximum resolution: 1280 by 720 pixels at 24 fps, 960 by 540 pixels at 30 fps)

That's pretty disappointing. It doesn't even support 1080i60 or even 720p30.

HD DVD/Blu-ray is 12-20 Mbps AVC/VC-1 or even higher bitrate MPEG2.

[Cadaver]

Bummer... a blow for Blu-Ray and a win for HD-DVD -

The Matrix box sets have been announced for HD-DVD. Coming in May. Blu-Ray versions are delayed at least several months due to apparent BD-Java problems or something like that.
Sorry, don't have a link handy, but I read it today on one of the HD video forums.

I'd consider buying an HD-DVD player for this.

[exca1ibur]

Originally Posted by Cadaver 

Bummer... a blow for Blu-Ray and a win for HD-DVD -

The Matrix box sets have been announced for HD-DVD. Coming in May. Blu-Ray versions are delayed at least several months due to apparent BD-Java problems or something like that.
Sorry, don't have a link handy, but I read it today on one of the HD video forums.

I'd consider buying an HD-DVD player for this.

Its here

If it wasn't coming out at ALL... it MIGHT, be a blow to Blu ray. It's a delay basically, not a major killer. I'll wait. Plenty coming out until then for me.

[mrtew]

Originally Posted by Cadaver 

Bummer... a blow for Blu-Ray and a win for HD-DVD - The Matrix box sets have been announced for HD-DVD. I'd consider buying an HD-DVD player for this.

Wow I can't believe there's people who still haven't got enought of the Matrix. Sorry but you couldn't pay me to sit thru another 10 minutes of that.

[Cadaver]

I wasn't one of the people who watched it 75 times or more when it came out on DVD, so it still has some thrill for me. And now that I've got a 103" projection screen, I'd like to see it in high-def!

[Adam Betts]

Only first Matrix is worth purchasing. Not gonna bother renting/purchasing it unless they release Matrix 1 standalone HD.

Children of Men is coming out very soon and it's only for HD-DVD. I haven't watched the movie yet but I think it would be a worthy purchase for many.

[hmurchison2001]

I like the whole Trilogy. It would have been very difficult to outdo the first Matrix. It was almost the perfect Sci Fi film.

Children of Men is a good film as well but it hits you emotionally in ways you won't expect. The cinematography was excellent with the long shots and in car pans.

Rumors are a second "big" title is due for announcement on HD DVD soon.

[Eug]

Children of Men is one I'm strongly considering buying. I saw it in the theatres, and while not a perfect movie, it was one of my favourites last year. Certainly the long one-shot war scenes were astounding. In any case, I liked it a heluvalot more than Casino Royale (although I liked Casino Royale), and though Pirates of the Caribbean was just kinda stupid. YMMV.

As for the Matrix, I may buy it, or I may not. It kinda depends on pricing. I haven't seen it in years so it may be time to see again, and I've only ever seen II and III once.

I'm just glad Matrix isn't gonna be TotalHD on HD DVD. They say the prices for TotalHD are going to be reasonable, but I suspect that they will be a few bux more.

EDIT:

No relief for BD-J issues until fall 2007... but you'll probably need a new Blu-ray player.

Blu-ray Disc players released after Oct. 31 will feature markedly improved functionality over models currently available for sale.

The Blu-ray Disc Assn. has mandated that all hardware streeting after that date must be able to play back picture-in-picture video, as driven by BD Java interactive technology. Many players on shelves now can handle BD Java, but to varying degrees. Few Blu-ray players include picture-in-picture capability, for instance, not even the PlayStation 3.

Sony’s current and summer 2007 stand-alone models and available Pioneer and Philips units are among those lacking the picture-in-picture feature.

With two different pools of players at retail in the near future, studios will have to navigate how to best create titles that play universally. A title with a highly touted picture-in-picture feature, for example, might not play properly on all players.

“For studios, it’s always a good idea at this stage to test” titles on all available players, said Andy Parsons, senior VP of advanced product development at Pioneer Electronics. Pioneer has upgraded its own BD Java playback with a firmware update, as posted on its site earlier this week. Prior to the upgrade, Pioneer owners could not see Lionsgate’s intended flashlight graphic within the menu portion of its Blu-ray version of The Descent.

Yet Parsons doubts that firmware alone would facilitate picture-in-picture, a relatively complicated part of the BD Java specification.

[exca1ibur]

Originally Posted by Eug 

As for the Matrix, I may buy it, or I may not. It kinda depends on pricing. I haven't seen it in years so it may be time to see again, and I've only ever seen II and III once.

I'm just glad Matrix isn't gonna be TotalHD on HD DVD. They say the prices for TotalHD are going to be reasonable, but I suspect that they will be a few bux more.

There ya go... from the article I posted about it.

Suggested list price will be $99.99 for 'The Complete Matrix Trilogy' and, for only $20 more, you can grab 'The Ultimate Matrix Collection' for $119.99.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by exca1ibur 

There ya go... from the article I posted about it.

Yes I know, but there's no way I'm paying MSRP for that. I'd consider paying up to CAD$99.99 (US$86) for The Ultimate Matrix collection, but even that's pushing it. There's no chance in hell I'm paying US$119.99.

[Brien]

Yeah, $120 is a bit steep and at that price proabably not going to do a whole lot.

[olePigeon]

I only liked the first movie. The other two were pretty lame.

[Eug]

For US$69.99 I'd buy the Ultimate Collection for sure. For US$99.99 I would not buy it. For US$79.99 I'd probably buy it.

[Eug]

Hmmm... Not bad. The Matrix Ultimate HD DVD Collection is US$83.95 at Amazon.com.

There should be another 10% discount on top of that for many of us, bringing it to US$75.56, but for some reason I'm not getting that additional discount.

P.S. It seems that The Fifth Element is coming to HD DVD, despite the fact it's a Sony Pictures title. It turns out it's being released on HD DVD in Europe, with a new VC-1 encode, which is supposed to be better image quality than the MPEG2 encode on the Blu-ray version. (For those buying HD DVDs, the European version will be fine, since there's no region coding. The problem though is that this title will be expensive by North American standards, especially if you add in shipping.)

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by Eug 

P.S. It seems that The Fifth Element is coming to HD DVD, despite the fact it's a Sony Pictures title. It turns out it's being released on HD DVD in Europe, with a new VC-1 encode, which is supposed to be better image quality than the MPEG2 encode on the Blu-ray version.

They are re-releasing the BR version with the better encode also.

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by Eug 

(For those buying HD DVDs, the European version will be fine, since there's no region coding. The problem though is that this title will be expensive by North American standards, especially if you add in shipping.)

Not to mention the fact that for Europe, it will be played at 25 fps (PAL) instead of 24 fps telecined to ~30 fps (NTSC). Some people get annoyed at the 4% speedup this produces. (I don't notice a difference unless NTSC and PAL versions of the same film are played side by side).

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Person Man 

Not to mention the fact that for Europe, it will be played at 25 fps (PAL) instead of 24 fps telecined to ~30 fps (NTSC). Some people get annoyed at the 4% speedup this produces. (I don't notice a difference unless NTSC and PAL versions of the same film are played side by side).

European HD DVDs are 24 fps. It's also of note that many if not most European TVs can also do 60 Hz, which works well with 24 fps video.

(To clarify: The major movie releases on HD DVD in Europe have been 24 fps, at least so far. I don't know about European TV show releases though.)

[Brien]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Hmmm... Not bad. The Matrix Ultimate HD DVD Collection is US$83.95 at Amazon.com.

There should be another 10% discount on top of that for many of us, bringing it to US$75.56, but for some reason I'm not getting that additional discount.

$75 with free shipping? Sold!

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by Brien 

$75 with free shipping? Sold!

Can you get it any cheaper if they keep that horrible #2?

[hmurchison2001]

Originally Posted by Brien 

Yeah, $120 is a bit steep and at that price proabably not going to do a whole lot.

Oh no...it's not doing a lot it's "only" rocketed up to #3 on the HD DVD list at Amazon.
http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/Top.cfm

I think some of you are underestimating the influence of The Matrix. This is going to be a huge selling title that propels both formats.

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by Eug 

European HD DVDs are 24 fps. It's also of note that many if not most European TVs can also do 60 Hz, which works well with 24 fps video.

(To clarify: The major movie releases on HD DVD in Europe have been 24 fps, at least so far. I don't know about European TV show releases though.)

Oh really? I wasn't aware of that. Good to know.

European TV shows are probably at 25 fps, since that's how they're filmed.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by hmurchison2001 

Oh no...it's not doing a lot it's "only" rocketed up to #3 on the HD DVD list at Amazon.
The Product Wars fought on Amazon.com

I think some of you are underestimating the influence of The Matrix. This is going to be a huge selling title that propels both formats.

It's interesting to see Happy Feet doing better on HD DVD than on Blu-ray, although they're close.

Originally Posted by hmurchison2001 

I think some of you are underestimating the influence of The Matrix. This is going to be a huge selling title that propels both formats.

Price matters. I don't think it'd do nearly as well over $100.

That said, Happy Feet is more expensive on HD DVD than on Blu-ray, and it's selling better on HD DVD, so there goes my argument.

[hmurchison2001]

I think we're seeing the phenomen of Neutral owners.

Happy Feat is more expensive on HD DVD but the saving grace is that it's TrueHD soundtrack is audibly superior to the Blu-ray version. My guess is that many people that own both will buy the format that gives them the the best audio and video quality. If these are normalized then they go with the cheapest price.

I know you've probably heard some "whispers" about another big title coming. I can't wait. I'm looking forward to seeing what the MS/Broadcom reference platform can do. Keith Jack from Sigma said some positive things about it.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by hmurchison2001 

Happy Feat is more expensive on HD DVD but the saving grace is that it's TrueHD soundtrack is audibly superior to the Blu-ray version. My guess is that many people that own both will buy the format that gives them the the best audio and video quality.

The current guesses to why Happy Feet is selling more on HD is because most BR owners are PS3 owners and typically they aren't buying kids movies for the most part but Departed/Bond etc.

Makes sense if there are more stand alone HD-DVD players out their with fathers buying kids movies for their children.

Then again if the HD crowed admits that then they also have to admit how many PS3 owners are actually using the BR player for movies.

[Eug]

Yeah, it provides some support to the notion that a PS3 owner is not equivalent to a standalone owner in terms of movie buying practices. That's why I don't think the consoles are going to ultimately determine the format war (although it's obvious they have significant influence at this time).

P.S. The number 1 hi-def disc at Amazon right now is the Children of Men HD DVD. The part that surprises me a bit is the fact that it is a combo disc, and costs more than usual HD DVDs, yet still is number one. I guess the fact that there are no big Blu-ray releases at this time helps that Children of Men HD DVD reach the #1 status. (Yes I'm aware that Casino Royale is a big one, but it seems that most people bought the first week.)

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Yeah, it provides some support to the notion that a PS3 owner is not equivalent to a standalone owner in terms of movie buying practices. That's why I don't think the consoles are going to ultimately determine the format war (although it's obvious they have significant influence at this time).

Well someone purchased 100,000 Bond on BR in a week and I don't think it was for BR stand alone players considering there aren't that many out there.

Right now the PS3 seems to be giving BR a huge lead.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Well someone purchased 100,000 Bond on BR in a week and I don't think it was for BR stand alone players considering there aren't that many out there.

Right now the PS3 seems to be giving BR a huge lead.

100000 Bond is a huge number for hi-def at this time. However, it's a small number for a big DVD release.

[olePigeon]

What movies are worth buying on HD-DVD or Blu-Ray anyway?

I have about 100 DVDs, don't think I'd actually rebuy any of them except for a few. Star Wars, Star Trek VI and First Contact, ALIEN and ALIENS, Serenity, and Firefly (if it came out on HD). I might buy the first Matrix movie only cuz I don't have it on DVD already, or some of the IMAX NASA movies. The rest are "good enough," and making them HD doesn't add anything.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

What movies are worth buying on HD-DVD or Blu-Ray anyway?.

The last Bond movie looks and sounds ridiculously wicked on BR. Same goes for the departed and corpse Bride.

Oh this is an interesting graph. Any idea as to why this happens?

[analogue SPRINKLES]

So PIP for Blu-ray is manditory this October:

Blu-ray Association Sets Fall Deadline For BD-Java Hardware Support | High-Def Digest

Not like I'd ever really use it but goodie.

[Cadaver]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

So PIP for Blu-ray is manditory this October:

Blu-ray Association Sets Fall Deadline For BD-Java Hardware Support | High-Def Digest

Not like I'd ever really use it but goodie.

I wonder how much this will affect my Samsung BD player...

[Eug]

Andy Parsons has been quoted as suggesting that PIP will not likely be implementable as a firmware upgrade on most standalones. Thus, it seems they will be SOL for PIP on Blu-ray.

Speculation: I suspect that those with the (cheaper) PS3 won't have a problem. It will be a problem only for those who spent $$$$ on other players.

[hmurchison2001]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

So PIP for Blu-ray is manditory this October:

Blu-ray Association Sets Fall Deadline For BD-Java Hardware Support | High-Def Digest

Not like I'd ever really use it but goodie.

Nice..only a year and a half beyond HD DVD. Nice to know Blu-ray 2007 is finally catching up to HD DVD 2006 in spec.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by hmurchison2001 

Nice..only a year and a half beyond HD DVD. Nice to know Blu-ray 2007 is finally catching up to HD DVD 2006 in spec.

You let us know when HD-DVD catches up to BR in terms of studio support, uncompressed audio and double the storage size.

[Eug]

If I owned one of those early $$$$ Blu-ray standalones without PIP and which are not upgradable to include PIP, I'd be majorly p!ssed. WTF were they thinking anyway?

EDIT:

Here is a quote from a Blu-ray insider:

"It's not a BD-J issue at all. Secondary video was one of the last features added to the Blu-ray specification (perhaps in response to it being part of the HD DVD specification, but I wasn't present at discussions to know the motivation). The BDA put higher mandatory performance requirements on the secondary video, in effect requiring it to support the same specs as primary video (HD DVD has greatly reduced bandwidth requirements for secondary video). As a result the first generation chipsets from Broadcom and Sigma which had already been designed into most of the standalone players were unable to meet these specs, hence the "BD-Video 1.0" profile was permitted until a date by which most thought it would be feasible to produce 1.1 players. More recently, in response to apparent difficulties in meeting the June deadline, the date was pushed back to the end of October."

Ouch.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

You let us know when HD-DVD catches up to BR in terms of studio support, uncompressed audio and double the storage size.

You let us know when you can actually buy a Bluray player that will work with all Bluray content.

[Kenneth]

I went to BestBuy weeks ago and saw a bunch of Toshiba HD-DVD players laying around on the 'open box' table. Buyer's remorse?!

I bought a copy of Casino Royal and The Departed in BR format. They do look great. On the other hand, I have a couple National Geographic and Discovery Atlas stuff in BR format on my NetFlix queue, I will see how they look and sound.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

So Bond on BR hit the 100,000 mark 2 months FASTER than even DVD's did when they first came out.

80% of all upcoming BR titles will be on 50 gig disks.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by goMac 

You let us know when you can actually buy a Bluray player that will work with all Bluray content.

Originally Posted by Eug 

If I owned one of those early $$$$ Blu-ray standalones without PIP and which are not upgradable to include PIP, I'd be majorly p!ssed. WTF were they thinking anyway?

So how will those 51 gig HD-DVD disks work again?

What's this about many Audio formats not being supported on the Xbox HD-DVD add on?

[Eug]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

So how will those 51 gig HD-DVD disks work again?

I think they are vapourware. HD DVD is 30 GB.

And unlike goMac, I think TL51 will remain vapourware, unless they can make them work on current machines.

What's this about many Audio formats not being supported on the Xbox HD-DVD add on?

All of the mandatory audio formats are decoded on the Xbox HD DVD drive just fine.

MPEG audio
DTS
Dolby Digital
Dolby Digital Plus
Dolby TrueHD

However, there is a bug in the re-encoded Dolby Digital output with the 360. Dolby Digital Plus tracks gets output in night mode, which compresses the dynamic range. This is of course will be fixed, and the bug doesn't apply to DTS or Dolby TrueHD tracks.

This is in stark contrast to Blu-ray. Some players can't even read Dolby Digital Plus or Dolby TrueHD, because they are not mandatory formats on Blu-ray. That's why you usually don't see these formats on Blu-ray discs.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by goMac 

All of the mandatory audio formats are decoded on the Xbox HD DVD drive just fine.

I thought it wouldn't handle DTS (just down-converts it) and i read this:

"A lot HD-DVD discs come with High def Audio tracks (DD+, DD True HD, DTS Master Audio) to compliment the HD video. The 360/HD Player in its current incarnation has NOOOOO ability to access these tracks."

Not to mention from MS themselves:
"The HD DVD features do not work
Some HD DVDs and regular DVDs do not support all the playback features of the Xbox 360 HD DVD Player, such as subtitles, multilingual audio tracks, multiple viewing angles, slow-motion play, and interactive advanced content. For more information about supported features, see the documentation for the HD DVD or DVD. In rare instances, certain HD DVDs or regular DVDs may not operate correctly. Typically, this issue occurs if there are variations in the manufacturing process or variations in the software encoding of the HD DVD or DVD video software."

Xbox 360: The Xbox 360 HD DVD Player does not function correctly

So what is this about current BR players not being able to do 100%?

[goMac]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

So what is this about current BR players not being able to do 100%?

You can buy HD-DVD players that handle %100 of HD-DVD's feature set. You can't buy a Bluray player right now that fully implements the Bluray spec (or matches the HD-DVD spec.) Not to mention those XBox 360 issues are software issues.

I'm not sure what your point is.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

I thought it wouldn't handle DTS (just down-converts it) and i read this:

"A lot HD-DVD discs come with High def Audio tracks (DD+, DD True HD, DTS Master Audio) to compliment the HD video. The 360/HD Player in its current incarnation has NOOOOO ability to access these tracks."

That's just plain wrong.

There is no support for DTS MA, but that's because it's not a mandatory format. The same is true on the Blu-ray side. DD+ and TrueHD are both supported.

Not to mention from MS themselves:
"The HD DVD features do not work
Some HD DVDs and regular DVDs do not support all the playback features of the Xbox 360 HD DVD Player, such as subtitles, multilingual audio tracks, multiple viewing angles, slow-motion play, and interactive advanced content. For more information about supported features, see the documentation for the HD DVD or DVD. In rare instances, certain HD DVDs or regular DVDs may not operate correctly. Typically, this issue occurs if there are variations in the manufacturing process or variations in the software encoding of the HD DVD or DVD video software."

Xbox 360: The Xbox 360 HD DVD Player does not function correctly

So what is this about current BR players not being able to do 100%?

Huh? Do you honestly thing that the Xbox 360 can't support stuff like multilingual audio tracks? Of course it can. It's just that some discs don't have extra audio tracks.

Basically, all that is saying is that the features have to be on the disc for the 360 to do it. It also says that bad discs might not play. Well whaddya know.

Anyways... Just look through your Blu-ray discs. You'll find that most of them don't even have a Dolby Digital Plus track. They may have DD or PCM, but no Dolby Digital Plus. Why? Because some Blu-ray players simply don't understand Dolby Digital Plus. The reason for this is because on Blu-ray, Dolby Digital Plus support is optional. On HD DVD it is mandatory. In other words... Every single HD DVD made MUST be able to decode a Dolby Digital Plus track, no matter how ghetto the player is.

However...

There is no requirement to output the native format from the player. It would be useless to output Dolby Digital Plus anyway, since basically no receivers understand it. Furthermore, it can't be done this way, because the player sounds or extra audio tracks (like in commentaries) have to be mixed in before final output. It doesn't matter what the original track was, whether it is DD, DD+, TrueHD, DTS, or whatever.

On players with HDMI, the track is decoded, the extra sounds are mixed in, and then the audio is transferred over HDMI.

On the Xbox 360, the track is decoded, the extra sounds are mixed in, and the audio is re-encoded to Dolby Digital for output over optical. There will be an option for re-encode-to-DTS for output over optical as well.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Speculation: I suspect that those with the (cheaper) PS3 won't have a problem. It will be a problem only for those who spent $$$$ on other players.

Depends. The PS3 Bluray drive has to be fast enough to read data in real time from two areas on the disk at once to implement dual video streams. While better compression will help, at 1x Bluray drive speeds this might be iffy (I don't know what speed drive the PS3 ships with.)

[Eug]

The sad part is consumer don't understand the differences. I'm in agreement with analogue SPRINKLES that Blu-ray's capacity is an advantage, but I'm also in agreement with goMac that HD DVD's much more elegant implementation is preferable.

Blu-ray aimed for disk space. HD DVD aimed for a feature rich format with a ton of mandatory features.

[exca1ibur]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Depends. The PS3 Bluray drive has to be fast enough to read data in real time from two areas on the disk at once to implement dual video streams. While better compression will help, at 1x Bluray drive speeds this might be iffy (I don't know what speed drive the PS3 ships with.)

2x (72Mb/sec - 9MB/sec)

[Eug]

Yeah, the drive is likely fast enough.

The bigger problem is the ability to decode the data (and combine the streams for final output). Blu-ray has attempted to 1-up HD DVD buy stipulating that the machine must be able to decode full HD for the second video stream. (For HD DVD this is not the case, since the spec effectively only requires SD-level video for the second video stream.)

The problem with this though is that means that the additional CPU power required is enormous. However, it is quite possible that the PS3 has enough CPU power to do it. Its Blu-ray implementation is software, and the Cell CPU is designed for this type of work. OTOH, 1st generation standalone Blu-ray chipsets simply aren't capable, even if they could access a second stream somehow.

So what ends up happening is this:

1) HD DVD - All HD DVD players ever made can do PIP, but the second video stream is SD-quality only.
2) Blu-ray - Early Blu-ray players can't do PIP at all.
3) Blu-ray - Blu-ray players released after October 2007 can do PIP, with higher specs than the PIP that HD DVD is capable of.

#3 might seem good, but the problem here is that the studios tend to prefer to support the lowest common denominator. If some players don't do PIP, then you simply don't get it on the discs, or else you use the lame solution of reencoding a second copy of the entire movie with the secondary video embedded into it.