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Dark Helmet · Dec 13, 2006, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by Eug

30 GB HD DVD-R and 50 GB BD-R were supposed to be out, but I haven't actually seen either of them in stock in North American stores.

In fact, it's rare to see even 15 GB HD DVD-R and 25 GB BD-R in stock.

OK so the 30's are duals. Can you have double sided dual layer or is that not worth it?

OK all movie quality and avalibility aside... when people want to start backing up files don't you think 50 gig disks will have more appeal for the type of people who would need this much storage?

I always found DVD-R's to small so I couldn't wait to get a dual layer burner to burn DL disks.

Eug · Dec 13, 2006, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

OK so the 30's are duals. Can you have double sided dual layer or is that not worth it?

OK all movie quality and avalibility aside... when people want to start backing up files don't you think 50 gig disks will have more appeal for the type of people who would need this much storage?

Of course, but I suspect that the real difference will not be 30 vs. 50. It will be 15 vs. 25 cuz dual-layer discs will continue to be uncommon in comparison.

Yeah 25>15, but of course, that's not the only issue here.

I always found DVD-R's to small so I couldn't wait to get a dual layer burner to burn DL disks.

I like dual-layer too, but in reality I use DVD-R SL about 99% of the time, for various reasons.

Dark Helmet · Dec 13, 2006, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by Eug

I like dual-layer too, but in reality I use DVD-R SL about 99% of the time, for various reasons.

The only reason I do is because they are cheaper. The gap is getting small enough that I don't care though.

Eug · Dec 13, 2006, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

The only reason I do is because they are cheaper. The gap is getting small enough that I don't care though.

1) Cheaper
2) More reliable
3) More compatible

For at least #1 and probably #2, the same will be true for HD DVD dual-layer and Blu-ray dual-layer. #3 will likely not be an issue though for these formats.

MattJeff · Dec 13, 2006, 08:51 PM

can someone explain dual layer?

Dark Helmet · Dec 13, 2006, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by MattJeff

can someone explain dual layer?

Double the storage on one side.

Eug · Dec 13, 2006, 09:39 PM

SirCastor · Dec 13, 2006, 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by MattJeff

can someone explain dual layer?

Here's the deal:

Dual layer discs have two layers of data on the same side. The second layer is accessed by refocusing the laser to read past the first layer. You may have experienced the layer switch on a DVD when the movie pauses for just a moment.

The picture above visually describes that.

MattJeff · Dec 13, 2006, 10:04 PM

ooooh, thanks

i always thought it was my dvd player.

Cadaver · Dec 16, 2006, 03:08 AM

I bought a Blu-Ray player (the Samsung model) just recently after installing a video projector and a 103" screen in the basement. Looks freaking fantastic.

Oh, and not only is Apple a member of the Blu-Ray club, so is Dell. Dell has a XPS laptop available with a BD-R/RW drive in it.

Edit: Sorry Eug, didn't see your post re: Dell's BD drive.

Brien · Dec 16, 2006, 03:13 AM

That's awesome; I hope to be able to do similar in the near future. Guess the 52" will have to make do for now.

Dark Helmet · Dec 16, 2006, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by Cadaver

I bought a Blu-Ray player (the Samsung model) just recently after installing a video projector and a 103" screen in the basement. Looks freaking fantastic.

If the PS3 supports more disk types, HDMI 1.3, faster start up, better picture and is smaller, can I ask why you wanted to pay twice as much for the samsung?

Is the fact that is is a game system scare you enough to paying $500 more but get less?

jokell82 · Dec 16, 2006, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

If the PS3 supports more disk types, HDMI 1.3, faster start up, better picture and is smaller, can I ask why you wanted to pay twice as much for the samsung?

Is the fact that is is a game system scare you enough to paying $500 more but get less?

Please let everyone here know where we can find these PS3s you speak of.

Dark Helmet · Dec 16, 2006, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

Please let everyone here know where we can find these PS3s you speak of.

Got mine off ebay for only $90 over retail. Beats $1100 for a Samsung stand alone no?

mitchell_pgh · Dec 16, 2006, 02:16 PM

Yes, the PS3 is in limited quantity, but come this spring, I firmly believe it will be commonplace. Also, the price of the PS3 will only get cheaper.

Even a diehard HD-DVD fan must realize the PS3 is a tantalizing piece of hardware.

If your looking for one box that does a number of things, I'd put it near the top of my list.

Dark Helmet · Dec 16, 2006, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh

Even a diehard HD-DVD fan must realize the PS3 is a tantalizing piece of hardware Game System + HD video.

I'm pretty sure that even if I wasn't a gamer I would have got the PS3 for the Blu-ray.

Since I also like games I think the value of the system is great especially since it costs more to make it than I paid.

I'm really really happy with the PS3 so far. Can't wait till March when some cool looking games start shipping as well as more Blu-ray movies.

Eug Wanker · 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh

Yes, the PS3 is in limited quantity, but come this spring, I firmly believe it will be commonplace. Also, the price of the PS3 will only get cheaper.

Even a diehard HD-DVD fan must realize the PS3 is a tantalizing piece of hardware.

It would have been, had the PS3 been not totally fubared on 1080i-only TVs.

I was actually considering getting one in April (my B'day), but the PS3 is a non-starter with my TV. That and the fact it can't use an IR remote. Those two things are deal killers as far as I'm concerned.

Montezuma58 · Dec 16, 2006, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

If the PS3 supports more disk types, HDMI 1.3, faster start up, better picture and is smaller, can I ask why you wanted to pay twice as much for the samsung?

Is the fact that is is a game system scare you enough to paying $500 more but get less?

Where's the pause button? Or is it some arcane combination like left-left-AC-up? How's the battery life on the controller?

Dark Helmet · Dec 16, 2006, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by Montezuma58

Where's the pause button? Or is it some arcane combination like left-left-AC-up? How's the battery life on the controller?

The pause button is the start button, select brings up the time/bitrate etc. chapter skip it the R1 and L1, FF and RW is R2, L2 or the + keypad. Very intuitive.

If not use this:
http://cerberus.gamershell.com/scree...27612_full.jpg

Eug Wanker · Dec 16, 2006, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

The pause button is the start button, select brings up the time/bitrate etc. chapter skip it the R1 and L1, FF and RW is R2, L2 or the + keypad. Very intuitive.

If not use this:
http://cerberus.gamershell.com/scree...27612_full.jpg

I hate having to use more than one remote, esp. if the extra remote is supposed to (eventually) be for my primary movie playback device.

jokell82 · Dec 16, 2006, 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh

Yes, the PS3 is in limited quantity, but come this spring, I firmly believe it will be commonplace. Also, the price of the PS3 will only get cheaper.

Even a diehard HD-DVD fan must realize the PS3 is a tantalizing piece of hardware.

If your looking for one box that does a number of things, I'd put it near the top of my list.

Chances are very good that BluRay and HD-DVD players will drop below $500 well before the PS3 sees its first price drop.

Eug Wanker · Dec 16, 2006, 05:36 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

Chances are very good that BluRay and HD-DVD players will drop below $500 well before the PS3 sees its first price drop.

HD DVD players have been below $500 ever since their introduction in spring 2006.

Right now the 2nd generation Toshiba HD-A2 HD DVD player is $399 street ($499 MSRP).

jokell82 · Dec 16, 2006, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

HD DVD players have been below $500 ever since their introduction in spring 2006.

Right now the 2nd generation Toshiba HD-A2 HD DVD player is $399 street ($499 MSRP).

Gotcha. I was referring more to the über-expensive BluRay players that the PS3 has a price advantage over. They'll definitely drop dramatically in price before we see the first PS3 price drop.

Montezuma58 · Dec 16, 2006, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

The pause button is the start button, select brings up the time/bitrate etc. chapter skip it the R1 and L1, FF and RW is R2, L2 or the + keypad. Very intuitive.

Intuitive if you're a gamer and are accustomed to using a generic controller to perform a variety functions.
fromhttp://www.pcworld.com/article/id,12...1/article.html

I adapted to the PS3 controller, but ultimately, though elegant for game play, it proved kludgy as a BD remote.

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

If not use this:
http://cerberus.gamershell.com/scree...27612_full.jpg

Is this actually available yet? Then you'll have to have to update your PS3 software. Then pair your remote to your console. More trouble than most people who just want a movie player are willing to go through.

If you're a gamer or computer geek the PS3 is probably an acceptable solution for a movie player. If you're not in that group it's a hard sell.

mitchell_pgh · Dec 16, 2006, 10:51 PM

Originally Posted by Montezuma58

If you're a gamer or computer geek the PS3 is probably an acceptable solution for a movie player. If you're not in that group it's a hard sell.

I think you aren't being very realistic.

The PS3 is a great choice is your a gamer or computer enthusiast (it does much more than just movies and games). Also, most people currently looking for HD video are computer enthusiasts.

jokell82 · Dec 16, 2006, 11:20 PM

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh

Also, most people currently looking for HD video are computer enthusiasts.

How do you figure?

Montezuma58 · Dec 16, 2006, 11:31 PM

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh

I think you aren't being very realistic.

IThe PS3 is a great choice is your a gamer or computer enthusiast (it does much more than just movies and games).

Also, most people currently looking for HD video are computer enthusiasts.

No I'm being realistic. As I said it's an option for the gamers and computer types. But it's a crappy choice if you are not. The non gamers and non computer geeks don't care about the "much more" and won't be patient enough to put up with the quirks to just watch movies.

If it were only the computer enthusiasts driving the sales of HDTV sets, the HDTV sets would just be an aisle in the computer section of Best Buy not about 1/4 of the floor space.

- - e r i k - - · Dec 17, 2006, 02:47 AM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

The pause button is the start button, select brings up the time/bitrate etc. chapter skip it the R1 and L1, FF and RW is R2, L2 or the + keypad. Very intuitive.

If not use this:
http://cerberus.gamershell.com/scree...27612_full.jpg

No, it's not intuitive save for play/pause. Judging by the PS2, I absolutely dreaded watching DVDs with the gamepad as the remote. I could never remember which L/R button was fast forward or which was the chapter skip. And the select button brought up an illegible and slightly indecipherable menu which lumped together vital and non-vital functions, and it did so twice for some bizarre reason.

An absolute UI mess if I ever saw one.

Brien · Dec 17, 2006, 03:25 AM

FWIW, the 360's way of using the remote as a control isn't half bad, either.

Eug Wanker · Dec 17, 2006, 05:47 AM

Yeah, IR remotes all the way. That Sony refused to put an IR sensor in the PS3 seems extremely odd. Perhaps they'll release a USB IR adapter in a few months, but I wouldn't count on it.

In the meantime, one guy on another forum says that 100000 HD DVD drives have now been sold for the Xbox 360, according to his local Microsoft rep. It seems believable, since his source told him 50000 in November (and then he told us) before the NPD number of 42000 even came out. (NPD's number does not include all retailers, and is missing some big names like Walmart, so 50000 is believable if NPD is saying 42000.)

BTW, they're predicting the initial batch of 200000 will sell out by the end of 2006. I wonder if that prediction will come true.

eddiecatflap · Dec 17, 2006, 05:52 AM

I think the fact the Sony is silent and deadly and the 360 sounds like a leaf blower will be a deciding factor in many homes.

Personally it's the most important thing to me after enduring the racket from a succession of consoles - the 360 , xbox , gamecube , ps2 and dreamcast all sounded like a saturn v rocket on takeoff.

Eug Wanker · Dec 17, 2006, 06:20 AM

At least in my setup, the 360 sounds like a leaf blower only when you use built-in DVD drive. The 360 itself is noticeably quieter, although not silent. The HD DVD drive itself is silent though, and you don't use the internal DVD at all when playing back HD DVD.

ie. In my setup, watching HD DVD movies is usually fine, unless the room is like 25 degrees Celcius and there isn't much air flow around the 360. I tried that once and the fans revved up and the 360 became noticeably louder. With a 21C (70F) room and adequate air flow around the 360 however, HD DVD playback is fine in terms of noise. YMMV.

analogika · Dec 17, 2006, 06:47 AM

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh

I think you aren't being very realistic.

The PS3 is a great choice is your a gamer or computer enthusiast (it does much more than just movies and games). Also, most people currently looking for HD video are computer enthusiasts.

I am a "computer enthusiast". I do not game.

How is the PS3 a "great choice" for me?

mrtew · Dec 17, 2006, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by analogika

I am a "computer enthusiast". I do not game.

How is the PS3 a "great choice" for me?

I agree. When's Apple going to just come out with a $150 BluDrive for my MacBookPro?

mitchell_pgh · Dec 17, 2006, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by Montezuma58

No I'm being realistic. As I said it's an option for the gamers and computer types. But it's a crappy choice if you are not. The non gamers and non computer geeks don't care about the "much more" and won't be patient enough to put up with the quirks to just watch movies.

If it were only the computer enthusiasts driving the sales of HDTV sets, the HDTV sets would just be an aisle in the computer section of Best Buy not about 1/4 of the floor space.

I simply do not agree.

I'll reiterate that it's a great choice for game players and computer enthusiasts and a good choice for average consumers.

I'm NOT saying it's a perfect choice for everyone as some people demand IR remote capabilities, demand extremely basic operation etc.

Also, I may not have been clear regarding my comment of HD video. I was talking more of HD-DVD and BR, which I feel are currently being driven by computer and/or hone theater enthusiasts. Most people understand the benefit of HD TVs as sports and TV shows are all switching to offer HD versions. That being said, the HD movie titles are still VERY slim regarding their offerings.

mitchell_pgh · Dec 17, 2006, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by analogika

I am a "computer enthusiast". I do not game.

How is the PS3 a "great choice" for me?

For ~$500+ you get a system that plays movies at their highest quality [and sound quality unlike the Xbox 360 HD-DVD upgrade], can double as a high end audio player (perfect for audiophiles), can surf the web, email, etc. etc.

Again, I'm not saying it's perfect for everyone, but it's a great option.

Remember, the PS3 is essentially a $800-$900 computer.

mitchell_pgh · Dec 17, 2006, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

Yeah, IR remotes all the way. That Sony refused to put an IR sensor in the PS3 seems extremely odd. Perhaps they'll release a USB IR adapter in a few months, but I wouldn't count on it.

In the meantime, one guy on another forum says that 100000 HD DVD drives have now been sold for the Xbox 360, according to his local Microsoft rep. It seems believable, since his source told him 50000 in November (and then he told us) before the NPD number of 42000 even came out. (NPD's number does not include all retailers, and is missing some big names like Walmart, so 50000 is believable if NPD is saying 42000.)

BTW, they're predicting the initial batch of 200000 will sell out by the end of 2006. I wonder if that prediction will come true.

I Leopard comes with HD-DVD built in and an upgraded player, I'd consider picking up one of the HD-DVD players just so I could get HD for less than a few hundred dollars.

analogika · Dec 17, 2006, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh

For ~$500+ you get a system that plays movies at their highest quality [and sound quality unlike the Xbox 360 HD-DVD upgrade], can double as a high end audio player (perfect for audiophiles), can surf the web, email, etc. etc.

Again, I'm not saying it's perfect for everyone, but it's a great option.

Remember, the PS3 is essentially a $800-$900 computer.

Okay, that sounds fair enough.

But seeing as all its functionality except HD-DVD movies is already better taken care of (and a $500 jack-of-all-trades is not going to have anything even *approaching* "audiophile" DACs), it's a $500 movie player.

mrtew · Dec 17, 2006, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh

I Leopard comes with HD-DVD built in and an upgraded player, I'd consider picking up one of the HD-DVD players just so I could get HD for less than a few hundred dollars.

So at the present time is there ANY way to play HDVDs or BluDVDs on a new Mac?

mitchell_pgh · Dec 17, 2006, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by analogika

Okay, that sounds fair enough.

But seeing as all its functionality except HD-DVD movies is already better taken care of (and a $500 jack-of-all-trades is not going to have anything even *approaching* "audiophile" DACs), it's a $500 movie player.

I never said the PS3 had an audiophile quality DAC. That being said, it can output audiophile level digital audio to a receiver. Listening to Dark Side of the Moon in higher than CD quality is amazing.

Sure it's a bit of a "jack of all trades" but it also excels in picture and audio quality which I feel many HD fans would find attractive. I'm NEVER going to surf the web or email on a HD TV, but it's not a bad option.

mitchell_pgh · Dec 17, 2006, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by mrtew

So at the present time is there ANY way to play HDVDs or BluDVDs on a new Mac?

No, there is currently no way to watch either HD-DVD or BluRay on a Mac.

OS 10.4 can "see" the drive when attached, but the necessary software isn't there. Apple basically needs to update (aka, completely overhaul) DVD Player to also play encrypted HD.

Montezuma58 · Dec 17, 2006, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh

I simply do not agree.

I'll reiterate that it's a great choice for game players and computer enthusiasts and a good choice for average consumers.

I'm NOT saying it's a perfect choice for everyone as some people demand IR remote capabilities, demand extremely basic operation etc.

Also, I may not have been clear regarding my comment of HD video. I was talking more of HD-DVD and BR, which I feel are currently being driven by computer and/or hone theater enthusiasts. Most people understand the benefit of HD TVs as sports and TV shows are all switching to offer HD versions. That being said, the HD movie titles are still VERY slim regarding their offerings.

I also agree it's an option for the techie types. Feel free to use great, extraordinary, super duper extra cool, or whatever adjectives you desire in that respect. But I think you're overestimating the ability and desires of the average consumer. Heck I consider myself a home theater and computer enthusiast and I wouldn't get a PS3 to use primarily for a movie player. I'd rather pay a couple of hundred more and get something that does what I want well, easily, and without a load of extraneous junk in the way.

As far as the type of people driving the market the only reason gamers are getting HD-DVD or Blu Ray is because it's available on their favorite consoles. Microsoft and Sony would still sell millions of these boxes without any sort of HD movie player to go along with them. Sure there are home theater enthusiasts that will go the extra mile to be the first kid on the block to get the latest and greatest. Those people may be first but they are not really the driving force behind the market. The studios and hardware manufactures aren't putting out effort to just appeal to this niche. There are also a load of home theater enthusiasts that just want to enjoy nice audio and video who don't necessarily enjoy putzing around with computers (or gaming consoles).

analogika · Dec 17, 2006, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh

Listening to Dark Side of the Moon in higher than CD quality is amazing.

I know. I have several different pressings of the vinyl.

jokell82 · Dec 17, 2006, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by mrtew

So at the present time is there ANY way to play HDVDs or BluDVDs on a new Mac?

Right now only in Boot Camp.

mrtew · Dec 17, 2006, 10:55 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

Right now only in Boot Camp.

Wow, that's kinda pathetic. No? So windows will play HD DVD fine?

mitchell_pgh · Dec 17, 2006, 11:04 PM

Originally Posted by mrtew

Wow, that's kinda pathetic. No? So windows will play HD DVD fine?

I wouldn't say it's pathetic... as long as Leopard can play HD-DVD and BR that is. If it doesn't, I will be rather upset.

I wouldn't mind tearing one of those Microsoft HD-DVD players apart and dumping it into my tower

icruise · Dec 17, 2006, 11:15 PM

Given that Apple is a member of the Blu-ray association, is it safe to assume that we will be seeing Blu-ray drives in Macs in a year or two when they come down in price? That alone would be enough to make me choose Blu-ray if I didn't already have a PS3.

And since Dell is also going Blu-ray, what computer makers are supporting HD-DVD? Or will Dell offer both?

mitchell_pgh · Dec 17, 2006, 11:26 PM

I'm guessing here, but I'm betting Apple and Dell are waiting to see what happens. I don't see them jumping on a format only to see it fail. I'm betting they will offer both and hope one simply wins out.

It shouldn't be all that difficult to support both formats.

I also wouldn't rule out the fact that the two formats may merge or they offer hybrid players that can do both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray.

mrtew · Dec 18, 2006, 12:14 AM

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh

I'm guessing here, but I'm betting Apple and Dell are waiting to see what happens. I don't see them jumping on a format only to see it fail. I'm betting they will offer both and hope one simply wins out.

It shouldn't be all that difficult to support both formats.

I also wouldn't rule out the fact that the two formats may merge or they offer hybrid players that can do both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray.

People above said that if you support BluRay then you can't supprot HD-DVD. So I guess that Apple won't offer any support for HD-DVD since it's announced that it's on the BluRay bandwagon.

Eug · Dec 18, 2006, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by mrtew

People above said that if you support BluRay then you can't supprot HD-DVD.

And they are wrong.

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh

OS 10.4 can "see" the drive when attached, but the necessary software isn't there. Apple basically needs to update (aka, completely overhaul) DVD Player to also play encrypted HD.

10.4 can't see commercial HD DVDs however, even though it can see CDs and DVDs with the same drive.

10.5 should be OK, but you'll still need playback software though.