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newportnews · Sep 23, 2002, 01:06 PM

iBrowse

Boochie · Sep 23, 2002, 01:07 PM

iWhy would Apple bother investing its finite software development resources in creating yet another browser?

NeXTLoop · Sep 23, 2002, 01:08 PM

That's Chimera. It's just been modified to have the brushed metal look.

bewebste · Sep 23, 2002, 01:09 PM

Um, it's Chimera with the metal background checkbox turned on in Interface Builder. Whoopee.

newportnews · Sep 23, 2002, 01:11 PM

Sorry guys... someone sent it to me and told me it was called iBrowse... And I use Chimera.. duh!

I didn't know you could switch non-metal apps into metal apps... how is that done.

MM

godzookie2k · Sep 23, 2002, 01:23 PM

open the nib file in project builder, switch to brushed metal and call it a night. text selection doesn't work as well as a pile of other oddities. Or you could use metalizer i think its called.

chris v · Sep 23, 2002, 01:33 PM

Eye brows. great name, only not!

CV

DigitalEl · Sep 23, 2002, 01:34 PM

With the blazing speed and feature-rich polish of Apple's most recent free offerings, I think I'd pass on an Apple-branded browser.

biscuit · Sep 23, 2002, 01:41 PM

Originally posted by DigitalEl:
With the blazing speed and feature-rich polish of Apple's most recent free offerings, I think I'd pass on an Apple-branded browser.

Absa-friggin-lutly! iCal is definitly lacking in both these areas.

But then, if an Apple browser really was just Chimera with an Apple logo.....

biscuit

lookmark · Sep 23, 2002, 02:00 PM

Originally posted by Boochie:
iWhy would Apple bother investing its finite software development resources in creating yet another browser?

Hmm, I'm not sure. Shall we ask Dave Hyatt?

Boochie · Sep 23, 2002, 02:05 PM

Please explain...

Originally posted by lookmark:

Hmm, I'm not sure. Shall we ask Dave Hyatt?

MasonMcD · Sep 23, 2002, 02:23 PM

Dave Hyatt now works for Apple.

lookmark · Sep 23, 2002, 02:29 PM

5-year contract between Microsoft and Apple comes to an end.

A growing distance between MS and Apple.

The Chimera project -- the Mozilla browser with a Cocoa front-end -- attracts attention, and gets rave reviews despite its unfinished beta status.

Who's doing Chimera? Dave Hyatt.

Two months ago, Hyatt was hired by... (guess who)

Just connecting the dots here. Not saying it's going to happen right away, or it's not just a tactic to pressure the continued development of IE, but it's clear that Apple finds it worthwhile to... bother investing its finite software development resources.

jcb9 · Sep 23, 2002, 03:13 PM

If Apple did release a browser, I'd imagine they'd do more than just put a brushed metal look on Chimera.

Anyway, iBrowse is a dopey-sounding name. iWeb sounds a lot better - yes, I know that the i originally stood for Internet and "internetWeb" doesn't make much sense, but at this point, the i doesn't really have a meaning - it's a brand identity.

Boochie · Sep 23, 2002, 03:44 PM

Apple still needs Microsoft, like it or not. For example, I don't see any mainstream, viable alternative to MS Office out there. Especially if interoperability in Windows-centric corporate environments is a concern. You're never going to get the average user to install some freeware product that runs on top of XFree86 or somesuch. As for browsers, most non-power-users will be perfectly happy to use whatever browser comes with their machine, and right now that means IE. What has Apple to gain by changing that? It has zero impact on their market share or growth prospects.

It is intriguing that Apple hired the developer of Mozilla, but I don't see this as evidence of their intent to develop their own browser product, given the variety of alternatives that are out there, each with their own unique appeal. Supporting the evolution of Chimera is quite a different thing from building a new browser from the ground up (which is what I thought was implied by the original poster of this thread).

Originally posted by lookmark:
5-year contract between Microsoft and Apple comes to an end.

A growing distance between MS and Apple.

The Chimera project -- the Mozilla browser with a Cocoa front-end -- attracts attention, and gets rave reviews despite its unfinished beta status.

Who's doing Chimera? Dave Hyatt.

Two months ago, Hyatt was hired by... (guess who)

Just connecting the dots here. Not saying it's going to happen right away, or it's not just a tactic to pressure the continued development of IE, but it's clear that Apple finds it worthwhile to... bother investing its finite software development resources.

El Pre$idente · Sep 23, 2002, 04:05 PM

IE6 will destroy all the competition. What with Mozilla crashing and making you use its own mail client, Omniweb's bad CSS support and Chimera's unstable browser that takes too long to launch, all Microsoft has to do is a little tweaking and make it as fast as the Windows version in order to finish this match completely.

Kenneth · Sep 23, 2002, 04:07 PM

Interesting, 500+ view counts in a short period of time. MacNNish love an Apple' own browser. CyeberDog + OpenDoc are still cool.

JLL · Sep 23, 2002, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by El Pre$idente:
IE6 will destroy all the competition. What with Mozilla crashing and making you use its own mail client, Omniweb's bad CSS support and Chimera's unstable browser that takes too long to launch, all Microsoft has to do is a little tweaking and make it as fast as the Windows version in order to finish this match completely.

You're putting way too much confidence into MS.

lookmark · 05:10 PM

Supporting the evolution of Chimera is quite a different thing from building a new browser from the ground up (which is what I thought was implied by the original poster of this thread).

Yes, that's why Apple may choose to do it. It's a relatively small expense, and it's very clever to piggyback on Mozilla.

The question whether this goes through seems more political than technical...

Apple still needs Microsoft, like it or not. For example, I don't see any mainstream, viable alternative to MS Office out there. Especially if interoperability in Windows-centric corporate environments is a concern. You're never going to get the average user to install some freeware product that runs on top of XFree86 or somesuch.

Of course not. A true Office alternative is years away (if ever). And you're right -- Apple here needs Microsoft very badly. But Microsoft also is limited in its capacity to end Office for the Mac. It's risky to outright kill it (looks very bad to the courts); they can, however, if they wish, let it slowly wither on the vine. To counter this, Apple may need to have in development its own Office-compatible Office suite, be it a future, much, much advanced version of AppleWorks (which I suspect is already in the works), or OpenOffice with a friendly Aqua front-end.

This is some years ahead, though. It's not about what's available now. It's about politics: leverage and power.

As for browsers, most non-power-users will be perfectly happy to use whatever browser comes with their machine, and right now that means IE. What has Apple to gain by changing that? It has zero impact on their market share or growth prospects.

Apple has the final word on what browsers ship with their OS. So whatever browser comes their machine can change quite quickly.

And given a choice between a highly integrated Chimera with an Apple UI, and Explorer, what do you think many Mac users would choose?

So what does Apple have to gain?

- Independence. Not being dependent on Microsoft for the web-browsing experience.

- Control. Integrating parts of the browser deeply into the OS, for maximum speed.

- Innovation. Imagine a browser with a polished, confident UI. Or an Address Book-style window for bookmarks, all instantly searchable.

- Pride. Our OS. Our browser.

::maroma:: · Sep 23, 2002, 04:23 PM

Originally posted by El Pre$idente:
IE6 will destroy all the competition. What with Mozilla crashing and making you use its own mail client, Omniweb's bad CSS support and Chimera's unstable browser that takes too long to launch, all Microsoft has to do is a little tweaking and make it as fast as the Windows version in order to finish this match completely.

What's taking them so long to do 'a little tweaking'? I'd say they're either working very hard on it, or they aren't working very hard on it. Either way, WHERE THE HELL IS IT?!?!?

The Dude · Sep 23, 2002, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by JLL:

You're putting way too much confidence into MS.

Yea, but let him figure that out. School of hard knocks, tis the only way for some people. Of course, denial makes that all pointless, but hey.

Eug · Sep 23, 2002, 04:38 PM

Originally posted by The Dude:

Yea, but let him figure that out. School of hard knocks, tis the only way for some people. Of course, denial makes that all pointless, but hey.

Perhaps, but the fact remains that two of the most used and most important pieces of software are Microsoft products: Microsoft Office and Microsoft Internet Explorer.

As crappy as IE is sometimes, it still is the most all-around usable browser for OS X. Too band it sux in comparison to the PC version.

Boochie · Sep 23, 2002, 04:48 PM

Given those choices I also would choose the highly integrated Chimera. But given Apple's current market share, the rate of adoption of X by users and developers, etc., is it worth their while to put a substantial effort into creation of such a thing? Or are they better off building the next piece of the digital hub, or continuing to refine the core OS? I don't claim to know the answer, but I'm enjoying this debate.

Originally posted by lookmark:

Apple has the final word on what browsers ship with their OS. So whatever browser comes their machine can change quite quickly.

And given a choice between a highly integrated Chimera with an Apple UI, and Explorer, what do you think many Mac users would choose?

So what does Apple have to gain?

Independence. Not being dependent on Microsoft for the web-browsing experience.

Control. Integrating parts of the browser deeply into the OS, for maximum speed.

Innovation. Imagine a browser with a polished, confident UI. Or an Address Book for bookmarks, all instantly searchable.

Pride. Our OS. Our browser.

Emotionally Fragile Luke · Sep 23, 2002, 04:58 PM

uGullible

lookmark · Sep 23, 2002, 05:16 PM

Originally posted by Boochie:
Given those choices I also would choose the highly integrated Chimera. But given Apple's current market share, the rate of adoption of X by users and developers, etc., is it worth their while to put a substantial effort into creation of such a thing? Or are they better off building the next piece of the digital hub, or continuing to refine the core OS? I don't claim to know the answer, but I'm enjoying this debate.

Me neither.

Think you're spot that those are the questions on the table.

I don't think Apple can afford not to begin work (either directly, or indirectly) on an Office alternative. As for an Apple-branded browser... who knows. It would sure be nice, but it may very well depend on things beyond just the ability to create it.

In any case, they've got Dave Hyatt working on something.

godzookie2k · Sep 23, 2002, 05:19 PM

Mail.app ships with OSX as a standard free mail client. Thus, giving MS no reason to develop a Outlook Express X free mail client.

now,
iWeb or whatever ships with OSX as a standard free browser. Thus giving MS no reason to develop IE Mac, a free web browser.

Picture the amount of IE only sites on the web, imagine for a moment not being able to view them. Does that suck? Alot. Does that shoot holes through apples consumer/internet friendly marketing? yup, cause if joe schmoe user finds out there aint no IE to view some stupid site, or Business folk find out, pfft, watch marketshare drop.

lookmark · Sep 23, 2002, 05:21 PM

Picture the amount of IE only sites on the web, imagine for a moment not being able to view them. Does that suck? Alot. Does that shoot holes through apples consumer/internet friendly marketing? yup, cause if joe schmoe user finds out there aint no IE to view some stupid site, or Business folk find out, pfft, watch marketshare drop.

What sites you do use that are IE-only?

That Mozilla 1.1+ can't view?

I'm genuinely curious. I haven't used IE in ages, and haven't had a problem.

mikemako · Sep 23, 2002, 05:22 PM

Speaking of IE 6, has anyone heard when the next upgrade to Internet Explorer will be coming out? I have read that MSN Explorer is due out for OS X soon and that promises to be interesting, but I need my upgrade to IE!

Boochie · Sep 23, 2002, 05:30 PM

My bank's online banking pages use Java applets that cause Mozilla to crash. NS 7 and IE 5.2.1 work just fine.

Originally posted by lookmark:

What sites you do use that are IE-only?

That Mozilla 1.1+ can't view?

I'm genuinely curious. I haven't used IE in ages, and haven't had a problem.

Graymalkin · Sep 23, 2002, 05:43 PM

Why would Apple build their own browser? Just because Microsoft does? Give me a break. Browsers are the most transparent and unnoticed pieces of software used on computers. Most users care not what browser it is they browse the web with, they click and icon and type in a URL.

Microsoft fully integrated IE into Windows Explorer way back when because Netscape was on the way to do that themselves. There were days when you could actually buy a web browser. Now that Netscape is a bit player in the Windows browser market the only reason IE is developed any further is to further develop Windows.

Apple adding a browser to OSX isn't going to do much to enhance it. Maybe a browser module added to Finder could be useful, fire up a Finder window and be able to load up a web page or just an HTML file inside of it. That is no reason for Apple to build their own browser though, the Cocoa modulized version of the Gecko engine could do that for them.

::maroma:: · Sep 23, 2002, 05:46 PM

Originally posted by Boochie:
My bank's online banking pages use Java applets that cause Mozilla to crash. NS 7 and IE 5.2.1 work just fine.

Same with my bank. I use Omni/IE as my main browsers, and my bank hates OmniWeb, so I use IE. Don't know if Chimera or NS works with it.

lookmark · Sep 23, 2002, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by Boochie:
My bank's online banking pages use Java applets that cause Mozilla to crash. NS 7 and IE 5.2.1 work just fine.

That's odd, as NS7 is basically just a rebranded version of Mozilla 1.1.

Anything else?

Originally posted by maroma:
Same with my bank. I use Omni/IE as my main browsers, and my bank hates OmniWeb, so I use IE. Don't know if Chimera or NS works with it.

Yeah, Omniweb (for all its delights) has poor support for web standards.

Mozilla is a very different story.

If you haven't checked out Chimera .5, I recommend it (keep in mind it's still very beta). You might just see the appeal of Apple using this as a place to begin.

Boochie · Sep 23, 2002, 05:57 PM

And we come full circle.

I think the Mozilla issue is something to do with the plug-in used for applet handling. Netscape uses whatever is supplied with the OS, but Mozilla doesn't (I think).

Originally posted by lookmark:

That's odd, as NS7 is basically just a rebranded version of Mozilla 1.1.

Anything else?

Yeah, Omniweb (for all its delights) has poor support for web standards.

Mozilla is a very different story.

If you haven't checked out Chimera .5, I recommend it (keep in mind it's still very beta). You might just see the appeal of Apple using this as a place to begin.

godzookie2k · Sep 23, 2002, 06:17 PM

My old banks site used to be IE only as well, and as a matter of fact in my daily browsing, I just ran into http://concepthause.com/ site thats 'newly redesigned' and IE only.

granted its not on my usual run of sites, but I do run into IE only sites with some regularity.

swiz · Sep 23, 2002, 06:21 PM

Originally posted by Boochie:
My bank's online banking pages use Java applets that cause Mozilla to crash. NS 7 and IE 5.2.1 work just fine.

My banks online system works better with Chimera than IE. Better=Faster.
With full functionality.

eno · Sep 23, 2002, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by jcb9:
If Apple did release a browser, I'd imagine they'd do more than just put a brushed metal look on Chimera.

You're damn right: they'd make it treacle slow, remove several of the (already few) features of Chimera, and introduce some hideous and elementary bugs.

And yes, no doubt it would be brushed metal. I hate brushed metal! Why does everything have to be friggin' brushed metal??? I guess I should just be thankful that Mail.app and the Finder aren't brushed metal....

sideus · Sep 23, 2002, 08:39 PM

Actually, I found this to be a better read than the current topic: http://homepage.mac.com/northwind/PhotoAlbum17.html

CheesePuff · Sep 23, 2002, 09:01 PM

Originally posted by eno:

You're damn right: they'd make it treacle slow, remove several of the (already few) features of Chimera, and introduce some hideous and elementary bugs.

And yes, no doubt it would be brushed metal. I hate brushed metal! Why does everything have to be friggin' brushed metal??? I guess I should just be thankful that Mail.app and the Finder aren't brushed metal....

Remeber that Sherlock III was brushed metal until we all complained.

godzookie2k · Sep 23, 2002, 09:12 PM

Originally posted by sideus:
Actually, I found this to be a better read than the current topic: http://homepage.mac.com/northwind/PhotoAlbum17.html

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

funkboy · Sep 23, 2002, 09:16 PM

Well what the heck, why isn't Sherlock 3 metal? I clearly remember it being metal... though I like std. Aqua much better. What's with the "Status" drop-down widget in iChat? That totally kills consistency.

mrfoxxman · Sep 24, 2002, 12:30 AM

I dont have my developers tools installed [got no HD space man!].... Does anyone have / could anyone make a downloadable version of the Metal Themed Chimera....I LOVE the look of Metal Apps and would love to use it, [even as just a novelty]

Thanks

swiz · Sep 24, 2002, 01:06 AM

Originally posted by mrfoxxman:
I dont have my developers tools installed [got no HD space man!].... Does anyone have / could anyone make a downloadable version of the Metal Themed Chimera....I LOVE the look of Metal Apps and would love to use it, [even as just a novelty]

Thanks

You dont need the dev tools, goto www.unsanity.com and download Application Enhancer and also Metallifizer. Read the easy install instructions and logout. Oila! All your apps which dont use resources from extras.rsrc are now Brushed. To complete the look you should get bOOzo's Brushed theme. You'll find a link to it in the OSX Software forum.

Cipher13 · Sep 24, 2002, 03:56 AM

Originally posted by Boochie:
iWhy would Apple bother investing its finite software development resources in creating yet another browser?

Because every other browser for OSX sucks beyond belief?

edddeduck · Sep 24, 2002, 09:50 AM

Originally posted by godzookie2k:
My old banks site used to be IE only as well, and as a matter of fact in my daily browsing, I just ran into http://concepthause.com/ site thats 'newly redesigned' and IE only.

granted its not on my usual run of sites, but I do run into IE only sites with some regularity.

Code:
requirements for this site:
newest flash plugin
netscape or ie 5.0+
css and php support

So it is not ie only just Not OmniWeb

mrfoxxman · Sep 24, 2002, 11:07 AM

Originally posted by swiz:

You dont need the dev tools, goto www.unsanity.com and download Application Enhancer and also Metallifizer. Read the easy install instructions and logout. Oila! All your apps which dont use resources from extras.rsrc are now Brushed. To complete the look you should get bOOzo's Brushed theme. You'll find a link to it in the OSX Software forum.

This is great...but i dont want **ALL** my apps to be brushed metal....i just wanted a metal version of Chimera.....anyone know where to get it?

marnie · Sep 24, 2002, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by lookmark:

...
- Control. Integrating parts of the browser deeply into the OS, for maximum speed.
...

isn't this what got MS into trouble earlier?

lookmark · Sep 24, 2002, 01:03 PM

Originally posted by marnie:

isn't this what got MS into trouble earlier?

Yes, but back when Netscape was an actual competitor. And this got MS in trouble because they promised not to do it.

Besides, monopolies are held (as they should be) to a different standard.

I wouldn't worry about Apple falling into that category anytime soon.

Sep 24, 2002, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by Boochie:
Apple still needs Microsoft, like it or not. For example, I don't see any mainstream, viable alternative to MS Office out there. Especially if interoperability in Windows-centric corporate environments is a concern. You're never going to get the average user to install some freeware product that runs on top of XFree86 or somesuch. As for browsers, most non-power-users will be perfectly happy to use whatever browser comes with their machine, and right now that means IE. What has Apple to gain by changing that? It has zero impact on their market share or growth prospects.

It is intriguing that Apple hired the developer of Mozilla, but I don't see this as evidence of their intent to develop their own browser product, given the variety of alternatives that are out there, each with their own unique appeal. Supporting the evolution of Chimera is quite a different thing from building a new browser from the ground up (which is what I thought was implied by the original poster of this thread).

I don't see Apple developing their own browser. One possibility is that David Hyatt would be working on Chimera at Apple, but this is very unlikely, judging by the slow progress of it during the last weeks and months.

You should not forget that David Hyatt was working for Netscape and so he worked for AOL. Additionally, he seems to be a very good programmer in general and since he worked on networking stuff, it is not unlikely that he works on something in Mac OS X or iChat or whatever.

Steve

El Pre$idente · Sep 24, 2002, 02:06 PM

Hypocritically AOL (AO hell) is now owner of Netscape and are chasing Microsoft for bundling their superior browser with their OS. But at the time Microsoft was also bundling AOL with Windows and even had a short cut to it on the desktop.

Amorph · Sep 24, 2002, 02:41 PM

First off, embedding browser code deep in the OS for any reason is dumb with a capital D U M B. This is exactly the kind of shortsighted hackery that has turned Windows into millions of lines of spaghetti code full of security leaks. If Apple has a shred of sanity remaining in corporate HQ they will use the neatly layered and dynamic OS they have to its full capacity, and run any such code as a separate module in userland. The performance will be good, and it won't open up a Pandora's box of problems.

Now, as far as Apple developing their own browser:

First of all, Dave Hyatt has gone on record as saying that the Mozilla engine went a little too far in its effort to be cross-platform, and there are a lot of things that could be done (that, presumably, he'd like to do) to cut out bloat and just use Gecko's rendering engine. Apple might be giving him a chance to do just that; they seem to be back on good turns with AOL/TW, so they might be able to do this.

Second, Apple is realizing that the web is a lot bigger than any browser (they aren't alone in this by any means). The time when the web could be neatly contained in Netscape is long gone. So we have Sherlock, and iCal, and XML RPC. What Apple is already doing is building (specialized) browsers, but more to the point, they're built on discrete system services that anyone can use, and that Apple encourages everyone to use. Apple now has Java and JavaScript both as system services, XML parsers, WebDAV, etc. So let's say Apple went about creating a web browser: What I propose they will do is build a number of services on top of the ones they have (e.g. CSS and XSL engines) that anyone can use, and then code an ultralight browser that uses those services as both a marketable application and a technical leader for developers. They might be bringing Dave on board to develop the browser interface and to rip out the parts of Gecko that he likes and port them to native Cocoa, turning them into one or more system services in the process. This way, everyone else interested in writing a web app, whether a conventional browser or not, could use Apple's work, and there could be much more consistency in how e.g. JavaScript was handled among browsers (at least on the Mac platform).

This is a much better approach, especially for a systems vendor like Apple, than either shipping a self-contained monolith (Netscape, CyberDog) or integrating a self-contained monolith deep into the OS (IE). It's better for Apple, because they have clean, discrete pieces of code to maintain. It's better for Apple's developers, because it saves them lots of work and gives them lots of options. And it's better for Apple's users, because, small speed penalties notwithstanding, good systems design always results in a better user experience - and the users will have the benefit of more robust apps, more web integration, more interapplication compatibility, etc.