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MikeM32 · Jun 11, 2002, 01:27 AM

Anyone know?

What is it to you? I don't know how to define it at times, but I think it's someone who wants me as much as I want her. I know she's out there (somewhere), but sometimes I feel like I search in vain. Sometimes I feel like my search has gone-on too long, and sometimes I feel like I don't try hard enough or overlook those who really might be "interrested" because of other distractions (work, school, whatever).

Sometimes I do honestly wonder how many times true love has stared me in the face only for me to stare blankly back without realizing or recognizing it.

I'm such a fool.

Mike

ironknee · Jun 11, 2002, 01:52 AM

Sorry true love is a human romantic idea.

Like the idea that there is only ONE true live out there for you. If true, she/he is on the opposite side of the globe that you are on...then what happens?? How would you know? Maybe she is right next to you?

Then we need to breakthrough our own walls. What if the real love wasn't what you imagined? wasn't the same religion, laguage, race, etc...

Sure, early on in a relation, one thinks everything she/he was interested was cool, so you begin to learn about the subject...Then one day you realize that you don't "really" like that stuff...and was trying to be someone (or something) you werer't--JUST to be with her/him.

just a thought

discuss LOL

cheerios · Jun 11, 2002, 02:29 AM

there is no such thing, Mike. Love is not something to be found, but rather something to be made, with someone you enjoy spending time with. There's no such thing as love at first sight. It's about building relationships with people, making friends, and finding someone who is such a friend, that you can completely trust them and have a life with them. There is no marital bliss, no true love w/o arguments and fights. No ONE person to find. No list of matched names and phone numbers. Sorry, dude. That's just the way it is. :/ Hope you work out whatever's goin' on with you.

FERRO · Jun 11, 2002, 02:35 AM

What is "True Love"?...

<img border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" title="" src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" />

What is "False Love"?...

when you lie or use somebody just for $hits and giggles...

If your relationship isn't based solely on what they can give you, then maybe it is "true"?

MikeM32 · Jun 11, 2002, 02:50 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by cheerios:
there is no such thing, Mike. Love is not something to be found, but rather something to be made, with someone you enjoy spending time with. There's no such thing as love at first sight. It's about building relationships with people, making friends, and finding someone who is such a friend, that you can completely trust them and have a life with them. There is no marital bliss, no true love w/o arguments and fights. No ONE person to find. No list of matched names and phone numbers. Sorry, dude. That's just the way it is. :/ Hope you work out whatever's goin' on with you.<hr /></blockquote>Then, that would be your take on what "true love" really is?

Actually having been married once I can semi-relate, but I believe there's something bigger than that out there. Sure, every relationship has it's arguments and some of those arguments lead to the end of those relationships. So it has to be "bigger" than that.

I do respect the simplicity of the first relationship. I had one, I was naive, I didn't know better and it lead to disaster. I still can't explain why. It just didn't work out. You're right there is no "perfect relationship" though.

I suppose if I was interrested in having friends that would mean something more. At my age I'm not as interrested in having "just" friends anymore.

Mike

cheerios · Jun 11, 2002, 03:24 AM

but if you're not friends with someone, how can you trust them enough to love them?

M�lum · Jun 11, 2002, 03:39 AM

True love is... when you start a poll about somebody else.

retep · Jun 11, 2002, 05:55 AM

True love is one thing, spending the rest of your life with someone is something completely different.

I love my wife, but I wouldn't say it's "true love" like in stories (The Princess Bride comes to mind). I can say that I'm happy to spend the rest of my life with her. Maybe in the years down the road, we will reach true love, but not after a lot of work.

And then there's lust which is a whole nuther matter entirely <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

7Macfreak · Jun 11, 2002, 06:58 AM

true love is when you feel her love in your uh... boxers.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> (do not confuse with lust). its more of an experience.

dav · Jun 11, 2002, 07:45 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by cheerios:
but if you're not friends with someone, how can you trust them enough to love them?<hr /></blockquote>well, i believe in love at first sight. i don't believe love should be so pragmatic. but to answer your question, i love my infant son though i'm not friends with him (actually friendship may develop later).

what is true love? perhaps when you care about someone more than you do yourself.

godzookie2k · Jun 11, 2002, 07:48 AM

True love is when a girl lets you poke her in da bum.

Lerkfish · Jun 11, 2002, 09:21 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by cheerios:
there is no such thing, Mike. Love is not something to be found, but rather something to be made, with someone you enjoy spending time with. There's no such thing as love at first sight. It's about building relationships with people, making friends, and finding someone who is such a friend, that you can completely trust them and have a life with them. There is no marital bliss, no true love w/o arguments and fights. No ONE person to find. No list of matched names and phone numbers. Sorry, dude. That's just the way it is. :/ Hope you work out whatever's goin' on with you.<hr /></blockquote>There is much in what you say that is good advice, that a good relationship takes work from both sides, mutual respect....
But I must differ with you on there not being love at first sight or soulmates. My first wife and I fell for each other at first meeting, totally mutual and complete. We dated for a very short time before moving in together and got married soon afterwards. We were blissfully happy for about 5 years before she passed away suddenly. We were soulmates, in every respect of that term, AND we worked on the relationship from mutual respect. I was just darn lucky, I realize, but it does happen!
And just to show how lucky I am, the same thing happened with my wife now...I gave up ever finding anyone I could love as much as my first wife after I was widowed, I thought those love receptors had burned out over my loss, but I was wrong (thankfully). I met my second wife on a blind date, that was only supposed to be meeting for coffee in the afternoon. The date did not end until 3 am, and my jaw was tired from laughing so hard, we meshed IMMEDIATELY. Within 2 months we were engaged, in 9 months we were married, just had our 13th anniversary last week and we have a miracle child, my pride and joy boy of 3 and 1/2 years. And we also WORKED at our relationship, there's no way to avoid that, but can people fall in love at first sight and find a soulmate???

Yes, it happened to me, twice.

bleuvixen · Jun 11, 2002, 09:27 AM

I do believe in love at first sight it happened to me. We saw each other and I moved in a week later and we've been living together ever since <3 years>. As for true love I think its when you can dislike things about your partner <he never puts his dirty dishes in the sink and he farts alot> but they never come close to outwaying all the wonderful things you love about them<he always rubs my back when im sick and his wonderful dimples>. I think true love is when you can realize that theres going to be ups and downs but you never think as leaving as an option. Well thats just my thoughts.

Todd Madson · Jun 11, 2002, 10:08 AM

The problem is you're searching. You will only find what you seek
when you stop searching.

� · Jun 11, 2002, 10:14 AM

Heh, it's me again

Well. It is subjective. I see a girl like some bunch of statistics like you got with a Transformer (you needed that red pice of plastic to red them. Sound good does't it? heh . Took me a while to formulate it like that.
With some girls those statistics go mad, all 100% like Rodimus Prime had a perfect score, and when that happens I might even haven't spoken to her. To me it is all looks.
I see a difference between handsome girls and beautiful girls, the first is sexy, while the second looks like an angel to me. I prefer angels.

When she doesn't answer my calls or email I just have a heavy night and hope it will all be over the next day. I think I posted a thread about this 3 weeks ago.

Important thought is that there are more perfect girls that just need to be discovered. I am not in a rush. I just hang out with girls who are not "true love" but are also worth spending time with. They can be just as fun.
Desperate guys are not very worthy in girly land. Keep your chin up.

boots · Jun 11, 2002, 10:43 AM

Cheerios: Some good general thoughts. While I will disagree on some of the finer points, the impression your comments have generated ring pretty true.

mike:
I've been married for 9 years. And I do believe in "blissfull marriage."
I knew I was going to marry her after the first date. I believe in "love at first sight."

I believe in soulmates, though I don't think you need to be married to be soulmates. There was a roving pack of souls we ran into in Austin that just seemed to be really familiar in almost every respect....(Ok, so I don't necessarily believe in reincarnation, but the feeling of "soulmates" is the same.")

I do not buy into the "one-true-love" idea. I think there are any number of people with whom I would have been happy.

In the end I met a woman that I knew I liked from the moment I saw her. We built a relationship based on mutual respect and responsibility. She does not make me happy; rather, I share my happiness with her. If you're looking for someone to make you happy, you'll be searching for a long time.

True love is not something you find on the street. It's something that stars within and is then shared. I don't really agree with Anne Rand in the extreme to which she takes it, but the importance of self love (get your mid out of the gutter, mike) is usually overlooked by the romatic idealists.

My wife and I argue... we disagree on a lot of issues. But there are rules to arguing that people need to learn. Once you know how to "fight" fair, things aren't that bad. For example:

�personal attacks are not constructive in an argument. It avoids the real issue and just depens any building resentment. This is where open communication comes in. You need to trust each other enough that you can flat out say what you are upset about. No tricks. No embarrasments. Then discuss how you can take positive steps to fix the problems. Often they end being problems of perception. These are easy to fix.
�Don't bring up laundry lists of old fights. Again, this is not constructive.
�Know the difference between real marrital arguments and room mate squabbles.
�Discuss finances and be realistic about where you are. Too many people try to live above their means and it ends up bringing undue stress to a relationship. It's silly.
(there are others, but you get the idea.)

Marriage is not a magical ritual that make relationships right. Too often people assume things will be swell once they get married. News flash: problems doen't just vanish. They can be repressed, but they will come back to bite you in the end.

Children are not band-aids. They will not fix a broken relationship. They require a stronger relationship going into the adventure.

Sex not just about procreation, but it is not simply recreational either. The emotional bonding that occurs should not be discounted. As a result, a well planned seduction can really be benefitial if things have been hectic and "bonding" time has been neglected.

I'm not an expert on marriage or relationships, but mine has lasted longer than "average." What works for me may not work for everyone. But the principles of mutual respect and self knowledge are pretty general.

[ 06-11-2002, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: boots ]

cheerios · Jun 11, 2002, 11:49 AM

I stand rebuked, Lerk. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> glad to hear you're happy. maybe it's a matter of trust... I don't have it in me to trust someone that far, the first time i meet them. Or for awhile after. more later... i just realized, late for work! eep!

Millennium · Jun 11, 2002, 12:13 PM

There's a lot of good insight here.

From my own experience, I'd say that love is not simply one thing. At the simplest, it is two: an emotion, and the work that it takes to maintain that emotion. Yes, it does take work, just like Cheerios says, and if you ignore it long enough it will go away.

My girlfriend and I had known each other for about a year before we finally became a couple. At the time, I didn't even realize my feelings for her, though in retrospect I now know that I had them. Hindsight being 20/20 and all that. But we were friends at any rate, and over the year we became more and more inseparable at school. I'd later find out that rumors of our getting together had been circulating around the school for about a month before we actually did.

And to be honest, at first I didn't even think the relationship would be a serious one. It wasn't until about a month afterward that I finally realized that I really did love her. But I did, and I still do, six years later. It hasn't always been easy; for most of that time, our relationship has been long-distance, and both of us have gone through some pretty rough times. But we've made it work.

That's the kicker: true love exists, but it's not quite like what you hear about in stories. It doesn't just show up out of the blue and stay there for ever and ever. You'll have to make it happen, and you'll have to maintain it, and these are not passive things. But you can do it, even if it's not always easy. And nothing could be more worth it.

But I think I'm going to stop this now, before I start over-romanticizing things...

SiSawat · Jun 11, 2002, 12:17 PM

Very good thread. My thoughts are: How do you find someone who is both a FRIEND, i.e. you have that closeness, that familiarity, that ground level bond which makes you feel as if this person is truly your best friend..... AND, at the same time this "best friend" is supposed to also give you that erotic, adventureous sense of 'mystery', or the 'drama' sexualy speaking that a lot of woman seem to want/need. It just seems the idea of being both, or finding both is really a difficult thing. You get in a long term relationship, it seems like "true love" then after years, it becomes all to familiar. Is the idea of both unrealistic?

Ever had a girl tell you "I love you, but I'm not 'In Love' with you"??

[ 06-11-2002, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: SiSawat ]

Macintosh · Jun 11, 2002, 12:39 PM

After reading this thread it make sone want to go listen to sad music and have a good cry.

randomaccent · Jun 11, 2002, 12:43 PM

I've had the pleasure of having a "wow! instant mutual attraction" relationship (1y 3m) and a "dating until it grows into love" relationship (5y 9m). The first relationship was definitely more intense emotionally and passionately. But it wouldn't have been described as true love as I had envisioned it to be. The second encompassed many of the qualities of true love that I desired. She played all the roles: best friend, lover, confidant, advocate, defender. And this was accomplished because we both worked for and wanted it. I have to believe that there are a number of women out there with whom I would experience a similar relationship. So for me true love comes from the building and working of the relationship between myself and my significant other.

Edit: And yes, I've heard the "I love you but I'm not in love with you". It is sooo much fun to hear someone say "You're more like my brother than my boyfriend". Yikes.

[ 06-11-2002, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: randomaccent ]

The Wolf · Jun 11, 2002, 12:56 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by cheerios:
There's no such thing as love at first sight.<hr /></blockquote>Having an ugly mug and a big beak I would really like to believe that to be true. But, I don't. Someone once said that "Love at First Sight is the Only Type of True [or Real] Love." [I'd appreciate someone posting the correct quote and source].

Anyway, I believe the latter statement to be correct. Unfortunately, I don't have the attention span to elaborate on it at the moment.

Tigerabbit · Jun 11, 2002, 12:57 PM

True love is the convergence of sexual attraction, mutual admiration, mutual respect, mutual tolerance, and a sense of humor.

A relationship can survive missing one of these, but not well. Take out two, and watch it collapse.

It takes work with anyone. With some, it takes more work than with others. With many, it'll never work in the first place.

valeriam01 · Jun 11, 2002, 01:17 PM

as anyone who knows me will tell you, i'm a hopeless romantic. I don't believe in the one true love. i've met a few guys with whom i feel i could be more than friends, though most of them are my friends now, i can still sometime feel the possibility for more, and with some it's died out. with my current boyfriend, i didn't even feel that spark until maybe a week into our relationship...but it's been a yr and a half now and we've had our bad and good times. i can't say he's the guy i want to spend the rest of my life with, because he may not be, but he might be, who knows yet? but love exists, it needs work and care. it's being best friends with someone, willing to share your life (emotions, events, everything) with them, enjoying just the presence of their company. i don't believe in not fighting being necessary, but you'll learn to not be too mean or vindictive during them, because it only hurts more in the end. i just believe in certain people being right for each other, you can't expect them to be perfect, but they just might be perfect for you.

<and now i have to go eat a lemon or something, cause that was a wee sappy>

Millennium · Jun 11, 2002, 01:46 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Tigerabbit:
True love is the convergence of sexual attraction, mutual admiration, mutual respect, mutual tolerance, and a sense of humor.

A relationship can survive missing one of these, but not well. Take out two, and watch it collapse.

It takes work with anyone. With some, it takes more work than with others. With many, it'll never work in the first place.<hr /></blockquote>I'd agree, with one caveat: you can't allow any one of those things to become completely dominant over the others, or you'll eventually find those others knocked right out from under you, perhaps without even your realizing it as it happened. It really is a convergence of all these things, but even more important, there's a balance between them.

TonyRado · Jun 11, 2002, 02:15 PM

Bah! I have had one prerequisite for as long as I can remember:

Someone who won't leave the kids in the car with the windows rolled all the way up on a 110 degree day while she gets her nails done. The sad part is not that my standard is so low, but rather that it has yet to be met.

lucylawless · Jun 11, 2002, 02:26 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by boots:
 <img src="http://euch6f.chem.emory.edu/~sbur/default.gif" alt=" - " />
Better Living Through Chemistry<hr /></blockquote>what is it, LSD? I see the Diethylamide; where's the acid?

boots · Jun 11, 2002, 02:29 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lucylawless:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by boots:
 <img src="http://euch6f.chem.emory.edu/~sbur/default.gif" alt=" - " />
Better Living Through Chemistry<hr /></blockquote>what is it, LSD? I see the Diethylamide; where's the acid?<hr /></blockquote>Hydrolyze the amide and you get the acid.

ReggieX · Jun 11, 2002, 02:40 PM

The Wolf · Jun 11, 2002, 02:41 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by boots:
Hydrolyze the amide and you get the acid.<hr /></blockquote>so, would that make it blotter?

WildZero · Jun 11, 2002, 02:44 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ReggieX:
 <img src="http://www.kabong.ca/macnn/missing-jordan4.gif" alt=" - " /><hr /></blockquote>Reggie,

Why, yes, it is in fact June 11th.

Mastrap · Jun 11, 2002, 02:45 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by cheerios:
there is no such thing, Mike. <hr /></blockquote>yep, gotta chime in late with another rebuke of that theory, sorry Cheerios.

Met my last girlfriend when she was dj-ing at a party. All I could see was a stunning creature in a silver miniskirt and bikini top with a Bjork hairdo. I fell in love/lust with her immediately, she looked up, smiled, waved me over to scrounge a cigarette. She finished her gig, we went on to a bar, then on to another party, then home. She never left, moved in two weeks later. Lasted six good years.

Saw my current long time girl for the first time when she was in a bar in London and immediately we both knew we were it for each other. If she'll have me I think I'll marry her one day.

boots · Jun 11, 2002, 02:56 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by The Wolf:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by boots:
Hydrolyze the amide and you get the acid.<hr /></blockquote>so, would that make it blotter?<hr /></blockquote>No, the diethyl amide is the psychotropic agent. I'll start a thread when I get a chance. There really is a reason for the sig, not just a depraved timothy leary soapbox.

burger · Jun 11, 2002, 03:23 PM

True love is when a girl who has nothing moves into your house and starts saying "Our stuff!"

...but you don't shudder when you hear it.

� · Jun 11, 2002, 04:30 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> True love is when a girl who has nothing moves into your house and starts saying "Our stuff!"
...but you don't shudder when you hear it. <hr /></blockquote>I love that one. But isn't the guy who doesn't shudder just plain stupid? Desperate? Things like that would wake me up. pronto.

Drizzt · Jun 11, 2002, 05:39 PM

For me true love is when I can lay in her arms, and speak my thoughts/emotions without fear of judgment. It also means laying down with her naked (both physically and mentally), without making love. I've been with my gf for 2 years (well.. in a week it's gonna be 2 years), she's not perfect, we argue sometimes.. but I wouln't get with another girl for anything (even a new PowerBook G4 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ).

It's just love.. we accept each other, we respect each other and we love each other..

Macintosh · Jun 11, 2002, 06:08 PM

Has anyone spoken about the fact that you might love somebody but you know that they will never love you? That would be the worst feeling in the world. I also think that physically a person must be attractive to the other for anything to go further. I just wonder if anybody has ever loved somebody else, they didnt love you but liked you at first, and then grew to love you?

� · Jun 11, 2002, 08:24 PM

Acid will give you some experience. I experienced my first acid a few weeks ago. with a girl who was much more experienced than i am. Acid rocks. cannot compare it. The Vortexes.

cheerios · Jun 12, 2002, 04:02 AM

well, I stand by my "at first sight" is a load of crap, theory, because a relationship is nothing if you don't trust your partner. They have to BE a partner. not your shadow, not your worshiper, your equal. for me, at least, that doesn't happen immediately. partially because I'm socially inept. Who among us isn't? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> partially 'cuz i have trust issues. But, partially, you just CAN'T trust someone with your heart when you've known them 5 minutes, or even 5 days. Now, that's not to say that I didn't fall in love, but along with that, i built a relationship. :shrug: w/ me, it was a friendship that just grew into more. it was trust, then emotional attachment, then love. My best friend saw it in me before I did. She laughed, 'cuz I wasn't expecting it. It just...was, after awhile. Grew out of long talks, long walks, and lots of catch with a beany baby octopi.

Mastrap · Jun 12, 2002, 04:32 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by �:
Acid will give you some experience. I experienced my first acid a few weeks ago. with a girl who was much more experienced than i am. Acid rocks. cannot compare it. The Vortexes.

<hr /></blockquote>URRRGH, nasty stuff. Saw too many people tripped out (Glastonbury comes to mind) on bad acid, howling, totally lost in a weird world of their own. IMHO of course, I realise that one man's drug of choice is another man's nightmare so don't take this as being personal, it is not, honest.

Took it a couple of times, talked bollocks all night and felt terribly disorientated for a couple of days afterwards. To be honest, I am probably scared of it, not the best premise for taking any drug. Now, a friend of mine has got a friend who's got a doctor on Harley Street who claims to be able to get his hands on...but I put all this behind me some years ago.

Where's that bottle of red? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

BlackGriffen · Jun 12, 2002, 04:49 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Todd Madson:
The problem is you're searching. You will only find what you seek
when you stop searching.<hr /></blockquote>Very zen-like, but even the sun can be blotted out by a pair of closed eyes.

BlackGriffen

dav · Jun 12, 2002, 08:16 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by BlackGriffen:
Very zen-like, but even the sun can be blotted out by a pair of closed eyes.

BlackGriffen<hr /></blockquote>but you still feel the sun though your eyes are closed.

Cipher13 · Jun 12, 2002, 09:17 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by dav:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by cheerios:
but if you're not friends with someone, how can you trust them enough to love them?<hr /></blockquote>well, i believe in love at first sight. i don't believe love should be so pragmatic. but to answer your question, i love my infant son though i'm not friends with him (actually friendship may develop later).

what is true love? perhaps when you care about someone more than you do yourself.<hr /></blockquote>Love is merely a very strong attachment... think of it as a covalent bond, or something, as opposed to an H bond...

Hey, chemistry CAN be used in real life... *cough*

voodoo · Jun 12, 2002, 12:18 PM

Hah! Love is a Van Der Waal at best <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

(and a bit electrostetic too)

finboy · Jun 12, 2002, 12:46 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by cheerios:
there is no such thing, Mike. Love is not something to be found, but rather something to be made, with someone you enjoy spending time with. There's no such thing as love at first sight. It's about building relationships with people, making friends, and finding someone who is such a friend, that you can completely trust them and have a life with them. There is no marital bliss, no true love w/o arguments and fights. No ONE person to find. No list of matched names and phone numbers. Sorry, dude. That's just the way it is. :/ Hope you work out whatever's goin' on with you.<hr /></blockquote>Gosh, C, you are wise beyond your years. Juan is one lucky dude (but you KNEW that already).

"True Love" only comes after a lot of hard work. As with anything else, the benefits come after the effort. Most of that effort is together, true, but you can prepare yourself.

There was an electronic book (html) on the web a few years ago (it was on the MacAddict CD at one time, or maybe on the MacWorld CD) entitled "How to Meet Women." It focused on developing your character prior to seeking out a partner. That's some good advice, for ANYONE, not just those of us who are searching for a "true love." You have to be healthy and complete, yourself, before you can think about finding friends and lovers. You should be someone that anyone would want to be around, with a healthy outlook and perspective on life.

TonyRado · Jun 12, 2002, 01:44 PM

Ah HA!

Who ever loved that loved not at first sight?
- Christopher Marlow

goatnet · Jun 12, 2002, 09:27 PM

True love? A chick that'll bend over, let you boof her, and swallow afterward.

MikeM32 · Jun 12, 2002, 11:51 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by finboy:
]There was an electronic book (html) on the web a few years ago (it was on the MacAddict CD at one time, or maybe on the MacWorld CD) entitled "How to Meet Women." It focused on developing your character prior to seeking out a partner. That's some good advice, for ANYONE, not just those of us who are searching for a "true love." You have to be healthy and complete, yourself, before you can think about finding friends and lovers. You should be someone that anyone would want to be around, with a healthy outlook and perspective on life.<hr /></blockquote>That's a good outlook, I've always felt one should love and be in control of oneself first, but many variables enter into our lives which we sometimes cannot control. We lost our job due to no fault of our own and suddenly we're back into this territory where we "just don't know" about our futures. (just one example, but there's many way's of looking at that).

We get to a point where we "believe" wer'e in total control of our futures until destiny kicks-in and pullks the rug out from under our feet.

Mike