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The Future of the Supreme Court (Page 15)
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OreoCookie
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Jul 18, 2021, 07:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Conservatives have been progressively exchanging it for a delusion which justifies racism by saying “what I do is not racist”. I see this delusion as dominant.
A version of this is “If this were racist/misogynistic, then racism/misogyny would be everywhere!”.
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subego  (op)
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Jul 18, 2021, 07:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
but I agree with you that most know exactly what they are doing.
I’m actually saying the opposite. That they’re far less aware than it looks.

Just as someone who is schizophrenic doesn’t recognize their delusion, or to use another neurological condition as an example, how autistic people can’t recognize their autism.


Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
A version of this is “If this were racist/misogynistic, then racism/misogyny would be everywhere!”.
This I don’t think I’ve seen.
     
Laminar
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Jul 19, 2021, 09:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Oh… I was confused. I get it now. Sorry about that!

This delusion justifies racism by saying “racism is okay”

Conservatives have been progressively exchanging it for a delusion which justifies racism by saying “what I do is not racist”. I see this delusion as dominant.

If only because it’s much easier to hide racism from oneself rather than hide it from everybody else.

This is how we measure progress with conservatives.
"FBI crime statistics" has become a meme on Reddit because they so often get pulled out to "prove" that black people are more prone to violence, ergo there's a good reason that police have far more negative interactions with black people, ergo it makes sense that more black people are in prison, addicted, or in other low social positions.

They believe that we live in a just and fair society, so all outcomes must by definition be just and fair outcomes.

So then you look at the history of our society and the racism it was founded on, you can demonstrate that it was not and is not a just and fair society, and all of a sudden Fox News is yelling about CRT ruining our children.
     
subego  (op)
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Jul 19, 2021, 12:32 PM
 
Working backwards, what is the difference between “you can demonstrate that it was not and is not a just and fair society” and “showing a delusional person facts will cure them of their delusion”? I don’t see a difference, and would expect both to fail for the same reason.

Is not the delusion “we live in a fair and just society” an improvement over the delusion “black people are genetically inferior”?

I often see the FBI crime statistics meme accompanying the “you’re the real racist” formula. It pins violent crime on the Democrats, who run the cities where most violent crime occurs. This is used as evidence the (white) Democratic Party elites aren’t interested in improving the lot of minorities, but rather keeping them captive thralls of the party who they sic on the conservative boogeyman.
     
Laminar
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Jul 19, 2021, 12:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Working backwards, what is the difference between “you can demonstrate that it was not and is not a just and fair society” and “showing a delusional person facts will cure them of their delusion”? I don’t see a difference, and would expect both to fail for the same reason.
It's the "you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into" conundrum.

My take is that it's not binary - you're not into or out of the delusion, you're just captive to it to varying degrees. And the depth of captivity is highly affected by external factors, like mass media consumed, social media algorithms, physical social circle, workplace, and more. So the local news station choosing to highlight gang violence or instances of black crime (though it may be proportionally less than similar white crime) would drive someone deeper. Facebook maximizing engagement by triggering outrage and reinforcing certain viewpoints would drive someone deeper. Being exposed to viewpoints of people within your same race, ethic, and level of wealth would reinforce those viewpoints and drive someone deeper.

Showing a deluded person facts won't cure them. But there are a lot of sources of misinformation that are driving people deeper into delusion that could be addressed.
     
subego  (op)
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Jul 19, 2021, 01:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
It's the "you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into" conundrum.
The only solution to this conundrum I am aware of (other than medication) is one must make arguments that are at least partially consistent with the delusion.

Of course, that can’t happen unless the person making the argument believes the positions are rooted in delusion in the first place. My experience is most liberals don’t believe conservative positions are rooted in delusion, they believe they’re rooted in malice.

To be clear, I’m not blaming liberals for that. Conservatives don’t think they’re delusional, so why would liberals think it? Without the delusion model to explain the behavior, malice is the most reasonable explanation.

I should add, conservatives need to explain liberal behavior to themselves, and the way they explain it is malice.

When both sides believe the other is acting out of malice, a never-ending feedback loop of outrage is to be expected.
     
Thorzdad
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Jul 19, 2021, 04:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
My experience is most liberals don’t believe conservative positions are rooted in delusion, they believe they’re rooted in malice.
It’s hard not to believe malice is at the heart of conservative politics when you look at stuff like the batch of bills the Texas state senate voted on this last week.
     
OreoCookie
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Jul 20, 2021, 01:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The only solution to this conundrum I am aware of (other than medication) is one must make arguments that are at least partially consistent with the delusion.
Would you do that in other circumstances as well? I don't think making delusional beliefs part of your argument is a good strategy.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
When both sides believe the other is acting out of malice, a never-ending feedback loop of outrage is to be expected.
I think it is important to look not at claims, but at things that actually happen, e. g. in a legislative context, are there any laws that are passed? In the context of voting laws, the answer is a clear yes. When it comes to e. g. trans women in bathrooms predating on women, then I am not aware that this has actually happened in real life.
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sonu jain
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Jul 20, 2021, 05:47 AM
 
just for yesterday news Supreme court ordered on kerala government of Bakri idd festival. and say that not any granted facility to anyone and not celebrate festival any of.

source : google.in
     
andi*pandi
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Jul 21, 2021, 12:34 AM
 
Do other countries have a supreme court? Otherwise it seems as if the US supreme court is overstepping bounds there in Bakri.
     
subego  (op)
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Jul 21, 2021, 07:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Would you do that in other circumstances as well? I don't think making delusional beliefs part of your argument is a good strategy.

I think it is important to look not at claims, but at things that actually happen, e. g. in a legislative context, are there any laws that are passed? In the context of voting laws, the answer is a clear yes. When it comes to e. g. trans women in bathrooms predating on women, then I am not aware that this has actually happened in real life.
I’m a little lost here.

Would I do that in other circumstances? What other circumstances are we talking about? If the circumstance is “dealing with someone who’s delusional” I don’t see another choice.

I’m totally lost on the second bit. How do we get from the very general point I was addressing (you can’t reason someone out of something they didn’t reason themselves into) to the very specific looking at bathroom laws?
     
subego  (op)
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Jul 22, 2021, 04:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Do other countries have a supreme court? Otherwise it seems as if the US supreme court is overstepping bounds there in Bakri.
In other Supreme Court news, guy who said cow pee isn’t a cure for COVID got sprung.

https://indianexpress.com/article/no...d-nsa-7411613/
     
subego  (op)
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Sep 27, 2021, 02:07 PM
 
T-minus 7 days.

My Nerf gavel is at the ready.



Edit: we’ll see what happens with the Texas law, but on the Mississippi abortion case (begins December 1st), I’m putting in my prediction the conservatives (not including Roberts) uphold the Mississippi law.

This probably means they also flip Hellerstedt and Russo.
( Last edited by subego; Oct 7, 2021 at 11:29 AM. )
     
subego  (op)
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Oct 7, 2021, 11:27 AM
 
Moving the abortion talk over here.

Judge orders Texas to suspend new law banning most abortions

In a 113-page opinion
Words! Words! Words!
     
subego  (op)
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Oct 8, 2021, 04:13 PM
 
My favorite argument from this decision is that Texas government may have the authority to pull this shit on the people of Texas, but they don’t have the authority to pull it on Federal inmates in Texas, who have their rights protected directly by the Constitution and are shielded from State interference.

Ironic.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 10, 2021, 01:23 PM
 
Its back in effect again.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego  (op)
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Oct 10, 2021, 02:58 PM
 
The panel didn’t share their reasoning, so there’s not much for me to go on other than their previous rulings.

Judge Ho is singled out for an opinion calling abortions a “moral tragedy”.

I think I understand why people take issue with this, and I’m not going to knock anyone who does, but I feel compelled nonetheless to point out he’s not wrong.
     
 
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