[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

Or just build one for yourself. All this company (if it's not just a sham) is doing is packaging a product out of readily available information from others who've already figured out how to build a Mac clone, and the exact parts to use. It's never been easier. Ironically, far more so than in the official cloning days.

Rather than pester Apple to commit business model suicide, why not just do it yourself if having a $400 mini-tower Mac is that big a deal to some folks?

What are the components you need to run an unmodified OS X install? All the info I've seen requires hacks, though admittedly I haven't looked into it that carefully in recent days.

[kelso]

Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster 

First you need to download a hacked Leopard install and fiddle with all kinds of ****. Therefore this is piracy.

This thing can install Leopard from a legit disk

I don't believe so. From what I heard, they were emulating OS X.

[Atheist]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

What are the components you need to run an unmodified OS X install? All the info I've seen requires hacks, though admittedly I haven't looked into it that carefully in recent days.

These days it's very easy. I've got a 2 year old Dell 5150. I had to install a single kext (and there was an installer for it) to get the audio working. That was it. It's as stable as my real Macs.

[Atheist]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

The OpenComputer people promise EFI boards and the ability to install and run Leopard unmodified. That's more than what other Hacintosh projects promise.

I don't think that's true. According to their site they are using Netkas' PC EFI emulation.

[Big Mac]

Ah. I haven't looked that closely at their technical info. Still, if you can install Leopard without modification that's an accomplishment.

[Atheist]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Ah. I haven't looked that closely at their technical info. Still, if you can install Leopard without modification that's an accomplishment.

I haven't tried myself, but it is my understanding that with PC EFI, you can install Leopard from a standard installation disc.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

What are the components you need to run an unmodified OS X install? All the info I've seen requires hacks, though admittedly I haven't looked into it that carefully in recent days.

it's definitely a very recent thing. I wouldn't say it's for the noob, or 'switchers' or people not comfortable with hardware, but for even the halfway comp-saavy, it's become very easy. When I first tried building a Mac about a little over a year ago (mainly out of pure curiosity) it was exactly the mess of hacks, patches and questionable performance I thought it would be. I could only get my first attempt to boot by using a linux bootloader. (Other solutions were things like leaving the OSX boot-CD in the drive at startup).

The last one I built, I found myself saying "Really? That's it? Are you kidding me?" I used all parts that were all listed as 100% working with OSX, had to make a few slight changes in the default BIOS settings, and used one hack tool in order to install from a standard Leopard disk.

Performance is awesome. No boot-up hacks needed. I've even heard that updating is possible- though admittedly I'm not gung-ho to attempt it.

[angelmb]

FORBES: Mac Copycat Produces a Customer

Wouldn't anyone just find the following procedure more "desirable" (technical difficulties aside) ??
- receive customer's old Power Mac (something like a MDD / QS towers)
- replace the guts with something like that
- deliver 'intel' Power Mac to customer, charge something like $250 and sell the original Power Mac guts as spare parts, that would easily add over $150

My MDD is just the small tower I want to keep.

[peeb]

Totally.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by angelmb 

FORBES: Mac Copycat Produces a Customer

Wouldn't anyone just find the following procedure more "desirable" (technical difficulties aside) ??
- receive customer's old Power Mac (something like a MDD / QS towers)
- replace the guts with something like that
- deliver 'intel' Power Mac to customer, charge something like $250 and sell the original Power Mac guts as spare parts, that would easily add over $150

My MDD is just the small tower I want to keep.

Except that the motherboard's ports would be totally wrong for a G4 case, even if a properly fitting motherboard could be found.

[Simon]

I look at my roaring MDD dual G4 here and wonder where you get the idea that this is a "small tower".

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Except that the motherboard's ports would be totally wrong for a G4 case, even if a properly fitting motherboard could be found.

I could easily custom design a new back plate and have it laser cut out of 10 gauge steel for pennies.

[0157988944]

All Psystar is doing is charging for the OSx86 project. DO NOT order a Leopard disc, all they do is send you a shrinkwrap Leopard disc that you cant even use on the computer in the first place.

[olePigeon]

I bet they're sending those drop-in DVDs when you buy a leopard disc.

[ender2002]

doesn't look too bad for $400. at least its all assembled, instead of ordering parts separately and putting it together yourself. definitely targeting the hobbyist & curious crowd of mac and pc users.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by ender2002 

doesn't look too bad for $400. at least its all assembled, instead of ordering parts separately and putting it together yourself. definitely targeting the hobbyist & curious crowd of mac and pc users.

I think this is what is interesting about this product. Psystar isn't doing something you couldn't have done before and they never claimed they were.

The potentially awesome thing is that they are doing it for you. Essentially a company offering Mac clones makes it possible for the whole non-geek crowd to go cheap.

OTOH stuff like you can't format and reinstall w/o sending it in don't fly. And of course for this to actually really work they would also need to offer some kind of upgrade service that lets you update your OS X installation w/o breaking it. This would have to be simple and elegant so that it feels as good as Apple's SU. As long as they don't do that they're just saving people the hassle of finding out which parts to buy, putting them all together and then doing the software hack. That alone might well be worth the money for some though. Personally, I rather spend the extra couple hundred bucks on hardware and in turn get a clean Mac with an upgradable OS X.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Personally, I rather spend the extra couple hundred bucks on hardware and in turn get a clean Mac with an upgradable OS X.

It's a shame you have to choose between an upgradable OS and an upgradable tower.

[Big Mac]

Yeah, that is a real shame. Anyone read that initial review of the box that says DHCP dies every 15 minutes and that the fans are really loud? People are saying they've built better running hackintosh PCs on their own.

[peeb]

Agreed that it sounds like it sucks. There is such a huge demand for a machine like this though.

[Luca Rescigno]

I figure if you want to hack OS X on there, you should just go all out and build your own Hackintosh instead of buying a pre-built one.

On the other hand, Windows is probably easier to install and more reliable than OS X when it comes to installing on generic PC hardware. I'm not really sure why someone would want to go to all the trouble of setting up OS X on a Hackintosh when the main advantage of OS X is its ease of use.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by Luca Rescigno 

I figure if you want to hack OS X on there, you should just go all out and build your own Hackintosh instead of buying a pre-built one.

On the other hand, Windows is probably easier to install and more reliable than OS X when it comes to installing on generic PC hardware. I'm not really sure why someone would want to go to all the trouble of setting up OS X on a Hackintosh when the main advantage of OS X is its ease of use.

The main reason is to have an affordable expandable tower.

[Atheist]

Originally Posted by peeb 

The main reason is to have an affordable expandable tower.

Exactly!!!! I've got a totally stable Hackintosh (that was VERY simple to setup) and I love the fact that for a few hundred bucks I'll be able to upgrade it to a Quad-core.

[Luca Rescigno]

I guess if it's simple to install, set up, and update, then there's no reason not to at least try.

BTW, my original point wasn't questioning why people would build their own computer, it was questioning why people would bother going to the trouble of putting OS X on it. I thought that if OS X was a hassle to set up or was unreliable on generic hardware that it would basically negate the advantages OS X has over Windows. I'm glad to know that's not the case.

[Big Mac]

Most people who get it installed report that it's generally as good as the real thing except for OS updates, which obviously break the hacks involved.

[peeb]

The trick is to use very specific hardware.

[Atheist]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Most people who get it installed report that it's generally as good as the real thing except for OS updates, which obviously break the hacks involved.

Yes... you have to be very careful when it comes to updates. The graphics updates can mess things up. Typically it's only when the minor revision number goes up (10.5.1 -> 10.5.2) that you get a new kernel. That will typically result in an non-booting machine. I made the mistake recently of installing the Time Machine update on my Hackintosh... turns out it installed a new kernel. Once I figured out what happened I was able to download and install the correct kernel and I was back up and running in no time.

I guess this illustrates that it's not for the feint of heart. You have to feel comfortable with Unix and the command line. Luckily I've been working with Unix systems since the early 80's.

Edit: I forgot to mention that with PC-EFI emulation you are supposed to be able to use the "vanilla" (unmodified) kernel. That should make the Hackintosh's much more stable. I have yet to try the PC-EFI emulation.

[Laminar]

I had a Hackintosh for a while, but weird random errors and the aforementioned update restrictions steered me away from that, so I sold it. Plus I wanted money for an iPod Touch. That I ended up not getting anyway.

This can't be your only machine, though. While often times it's quite reliable, there are times where it's crucial to have another machine handy to download whatever will un-break your computer.

[Eriamjh]

Took them long enough: Apple sues Psystar

Here's a non-blog link: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post...r-psystar.html

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

This can't be your only machine, though. While often times it's quite reliable, there are times where it's crucial to have another machine handy to download whatever will un-break your computer.

It could easily be. You just need the right hardware.

I've been using 6 custom Hackintoshes as part of my business for over a year now. The latest ones run 10.5.4, were retail DVD installs, are updated from software update, and work flawlessly, day in, day out. They cost a fraction of anything from Apple, yet outperform all but the fastest MacPro.

At this point, pretty much everything has been figured out for at least a handful of configurations that are pretty much 99.9999999% as genuine as the real deal.

Oh, and actually OSX turns out to be much easier to install on a compatible PC than Windows or Linux. One thing Apple really can do well is design a great OS- in this case, more robust and more compatible than even its greatest fans realize.

[Chuckit]

Really? No patches, kexts or boot hacks required?

[lpkmckenna]

CRASH, do these BIOS-based PCs boot up OS X without an EFI emulator?

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

It could easily be. You just need the right hardware.

Back when I was doing it, I was running 10.4.6 and I had to mess with GRUB to get everything working correctly, but it was still easier than installing Vista. I custom built my computer to be as compatible as possible - graphics, sound, network, etc. worked right out of the box, which was a bit rare at the time.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Really? No patches, kexts or boot hacks required?

Basically yes, none of that. All the (pre-done) hacking occurs at the install phase when various methods either emulate of bypass EFI. The latest method involves booting with a tool to emulate the EFI (which as I understand it is based on open source Darwin) then using the retail DVD to install 100% vanilla from there. That method yields an install that's fully working without any hacks required. An install of 10.5 can be software updated to 10.5.4 without a hiccup.

Even the install methods using a 'packaged' OS X don't require many patches on the right equipment and use the Vanilla kernel.

The latest, latest method even uses a USB key EFI-bypass that's the easiest to date- but I haven't seen that in the wild yet.

All Psystar is doing is exploiting the work that the open source gurus have figured out that make a vanilla + retail install possible- they pretty much deserve to have their asses handed to them just for shamelessly marketing the open source work of others, let alone whatever Apple has on them.

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

CRASH, do these BIOS-based PCs boot up OS X without an EFI emulator?

Nope- there's an EFI partition that sits between OS X and the BIOS.

Laminar- I still use GRUB to multi-boot OS X and other OS's simply because it's easy and I like using GRUB, but it's not mandatory.

For the record, many Gigabyte G31 and P35 based motherboards are ridiculously compatible, and honestly, you'd have to work at getting OS X to fail on the best of them. It's no secret Pystar's little $400 job uses the GA-G31M-S2L motherboard because it's both cheap and perfectly compatible. Several of the GA-EP35-DSx boards are even better.