[Socially Awkward Solo]

"These liquid-cooling systems, which were designed by Delphi, manufactured in Mexico, and shipped to Apple's manufacturing facilities in Asia, have been the topic of concern at several Apple exec meetings.

According to reliable sources, Delphi only guarantees the cooling systems to Apple for a period of 2.5 years, though the expected life-span of each unit is rumored to be closer to 2 years. Sources say the lifespan is limited by potenial leakage of the thermal conductive fluid inside the systems. Apple reportedly fears the fluid could cause damage to consumer's valuables or expensive carpets, which would leave the company exposted to potential lawsuits."

http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=993

[Eug Wanker]

As we have been discussing in the Quad Mac thread, the article is weird:

However, sources recently reported that Apple is performing quality assurance tests on new Power Macs based on IBM's unannounced dual-core PowerPC 970MP processor, code-named "Antares." In order to properly test the systems, which reportedly sport two of the dual-core chips, engineers have been seen upgrading office and testing lab power outlets to enable proper testing of the desktop's power-hungry power supply.

However, I could see Apple being concerned about these liquid cooling systems. I was concerned too when I heard about them for the first time. Still, the article seems odd.

[rjenkinson]

Originally posted by Socially Awkward Solo:
"Apple reportedly fears the fluid could cause damage to consumer's valuables or expensive carpets, which would leave the company exposted to potential lawsuits."

honestly, carpets?

-r.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally posted by rjenkinson:
honestly, carpets?

-r.

I know, I would be much more worried about the $5000 leaky out of warrantee paperweight on my desk.

[tooki]

*yawn*

Considering that Apple's AppleCare warranty goes to 3 years, I'm absolutely certain that they made a >3yr lifespan a design requirement of the part.

tooki

[Kristoff]

wow....how odd.

I mean, what would cause it to spontaneously start leaking?
I mean.....really?

[Maflynn]

Originally Posted by Kristoff

wow....how odd.

I mean, what would cause it to spontaneously start leaking?
I mean.....really?

A hole

Sorry couldn't resist

[Mediaman_12]

Originally Posted by Socially Awkward Solo

damage to consumer's valuables or expensive carpets, which would leave the company exposted to potential lawsuits.]

???? It's only a 'heat pipe' system. There will be very little actual liquid in there. Spilling a cup a coffee would be more liable to leave a worse stain, that's if it even managed to get out of the case.

[Kristoff]

Yeah, I think it's FUD.

Most of the fluid used in those heat transfer devices (peltier) use a liquid that is volatile.
If it the small amount present did leak, it would most likely evaporate before anything got damaged.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by Kristoff

Most of the fluid used in those heat transfer devices (peltier) use a liquid that is volatile.
If it the small amount present did leak, it would most likely evaporate before anything got damaged.

You really don't know what you're talking about do you? Leakage is a common problem with liquid cooling systems for computers like the one in Apple's dual 2.5 Power Mac, and yes, they can leak all over the bottom of the case.

That's why I was surprised Apple with such a system in the first place. Have you ever seen the hoses and clamps in the Apple system? LOTS of areas for potential leakage.

I'm not saying I believe the AI rumour, but at least criticize it with some relevant facts.

[Kristoff]

Wow, now your thread-stalking me, aren't you? Just dying to jump down my throat because you disagree with my assessment of the state of the power mac.

Show me what statistics you have on the number of fielded liquid cooled computer systems vs leakage occurrence.

EDIT:
And, I admit to not knowing the specifics of the Delphi device when I first posted.
Turns out, it's not a peltier, rather, a water and propylene glycol based radiator complete with pump. does this mean it will leak?
I guess only time will tell.

Without statistics, it is most certainly FUD.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by Kristoff

Wow, now your thread-stalking me, aren't you?

So who was in this thread first?

Just dying to jump down my throat because you disagree with my assessment of the state of the power mac.

Nope. I'm jumping down your throat because your info is wrong.

Show me what statistics you have on the number of fielded liquid cooled computer systems vs leakage occurrence.

Gimme a break. If you actually knew what the Power Mac cooling system looked like, then you'd know what everyone is talking about. It's a full-fledged liquid cooling system, complete with true liquid coolant, a pump, hoses, clamps, and a radiator.







And no, the fluid doesn't just immediately magically evaporate into nothingness if it leaks out.

[Kristoff]

Edit, I know...see me additions to my previous post.

Thanks for the nice pic...that's pretty cool looking.

[Eriamjh]

I have not heard of a SINGLE report of a dual 2.5GHz leaking in the field.

[Wiskedjak]

sounds like just about the right time frame to force an upgrade to G6's

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally Posted by tooki

*yawn*

Considering that Apple's AppleCare warranty goes to 3 years, I'm absolutely certain that they made a >3yr lifespan a design requirement of the part.

tooki

Ya, I'm sure people won't mind them leaking after 3 years than.

Oh and the standard AppleCare is 1 year.

[mitchell_pgh]

I would be more worried about sparks/fire.

[UnixMac]

It would seem like at least one of the MacNN users would have already experienced a leak if this were possible over the short term (4 or so years). Cause stuff like this doesn't always fail right at 2.5 years, there would be a bell type curve with some failing with in a few months and others lasting for 6+ years..

Also, I think if this were a major problem, Apple might put out a service recall where you brought your machine in for a check and maybe some new hose clamps, kinda like servicing a radiator on a car.

But then maybe Apple is being typical of corporations these days who have no regard for their customers and is just hoping the problem doesn't occur before 3 years.

As a side note, I've been hearing the "hamster wheel" more and more lately inside my G5. I wonder if that's a early sign of failure of the pump or not?

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by UnixMac

As a side note, I've been hearing the "hamster wheel" more and more lately inside my G5. I wonder if that's a early sign of failure of the pump or not?

Get it checked out.

It might just be a fan though or something.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally Posted by UnixMac

As a side note, I've been hearing the "hamster wheel" more and more lately inside my G5. I wonder if that's a early sign of failure of the pump or not?

Is it like a squeak squeak squeak?

[UnixMac]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

Get it checked out.

It might just be a fan though or something.

Do you think it's that serious? I had just though that the "squeak squeak" as normal for the dual 2.5 .. I seem to remember a thread a while back saying that a lot of guys get it. At that time I hadn't heard it, now I hear it about 10-15% of the time, cycles on and off..

I guess I'll give Apple care a call and start a case (just in case )

[UnixMac]

Originally Posted by Socially Awkward Solo

Is it like a squeak squeak squeak?

Exactly..

[jedi1yoda1]

Originally Posted by UnixMac

Exactly..

If it's defiantly a squeak (not a processor hiss) it's probably a fan. On of my front fans sounds exactly like a hamster wheel, it just needs lubricated or replaced. Contact AppleCare if it really bothers you, they should be able to send you a new one depending on which one it is.

On another note, I've heard of a few cases of the liquid cooling system leaking. It is entirely possible. Think of it as a mini car radiator (cause thats what it is). There are entire shops dedicated to radiator problems and repairs.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally Posted by jedi1yoda1

If it's defiantly a squeak (not a processor hiss) it's probably a fan. On of my front fans sounds exactly like a hamster wheel, it just needs lubricated or replaced. Contact AppleCare if it really bothers you, they should be able to send you a new one depending on which one it is.

On another note, I've heard of a few cases of the liquid cooling system leaking. It is entirely possible. Think of it as a mini car radiator (cause thats what it is). There are entire shops dedicated to radiator problems and repairs.

I've heard it a couple times on my Rev A dual G5. So it is not a pump issue (I don't have one). It sounds like a fan.

[MORT A POTTY]

lol, take your PowerMac in to a radiator shop

[UnixMac]

That would explain what it's intermittent since I'm sure the pump is continuous whereas the fan is probably not (at least speed variable).. I'll take some silicon spray to it if I can identify the culprit.. os there a "usual suspect" or can it be any of the 50 fans in there!

[jedi1yoda1]

Forgot to mention that my machine is a Rev. A Dual 2.0 as well. My brother's Dual 2.5 does not have any squeaking.

[Eug Wanker]

You shouldn't use lubricant sprays on the fans. They collect duct that much faster and get all gummed up cuz it all congeals. If you do indeed have a consistently squeaky fan, the best thing to do is get it replaced.

[Kristoff]

Eug is right. Lubricants almost always make it worse.

Sometimes, you can take the fan assembly out and spray it real good with canned air to remove dust that has already accumulated and it will make the noise go away.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by Kristoff

Sometimes, you can take the fan assembly out and spray it real good with canned air to remove dust that has already accumulated and it will make the noise go away.

Good point.

[UnixMac]

K. I'll contact Apple re:new fan, see what they say..

[pcd2k]

Liked the pics, but wish there were a pic of the cooling system adjacent to the donk, like showing where it is located just to get an idea of the scale of things, also wondered how much extra weight it adds to the machine ?

[yaro]

Check out an article and some pictures of a revised liquid cooling system at http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/.

[wallinbl]

Originally Posted by Eriamjh

I have not heard of a SINGLE report of a dual 2.5GHz leaking in the field.

That's because the liquid cooling is in the DUAL proc machines.

[polendo]

I still have my doubts on Apple's ability to mass produce a liquid cooled computer. But I guess time will tell if they got it right. Since I'm risk averse,I would rather go down a notch on the computer performance but with a proven air cooling system.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by polendo

I still have my doubts on Apple's ability to mass produce a liquid cooled computer. But I guess time will tell if they got it right. Since I'm risk averse,I would rather go down a notch on the computer performance but with a proven air cooling system.

Apple has been mass producing a liquid cooled computer since last year.

[Kristoff]

And IBM has been liquid cooling the S/390 for years, no?

[ideasculptor]

It is, indeed, very similar to a car cooling system, except that it has a much smaller radiator, fewer, smaller gauge hoses and pipes, the coolant (probably) doesn't get as hot, the pump moves far less fluid over far shorter distances, and it doesn't have to roll down a less than smooth surface at 80+ mph, sustaining impacts from rocks, bugs, and god knows what else. And yet, I wonder how many cars suffer coolant system failures within the first 3 years. A pretty small percentage, I'd wager. Sure, it is absolutely possible for the liquid cooling to fail on the G5, but it is almost certainly not likely to happen within the time where the computer is useful. If you are unlucky enough to be one of the folks under the tail of the bell curve, you could get screwed, but the odds of it being you are pretty small. You are probably much more likely to suffer any number of more mundane failures which contribute far more to the cost of applecare than potential cooling failures. If you are worried about cooling failures, you should be far more worried about hard drive failures, power supply failures, motherboard shorts, power surges, etc. And if you are worried about those things, then you should already have paid for applecare. A failed cooling system is a non-issue, statistically, as far as I can tell from the evidence that is public so far and by looking at the example of automotive cooling systems.

--sam

[bovie]

Does anyone know what apple uses in this system? I really don't think it is a water/antifrezze mix. I would almost bet money they are using glycol.

[polendo]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

Apple has been mass producing a liquid cooled computer since last year.

I know, the problems come later... when time passes by. But anyway, I don't wish anything bad to liquid cooled Mac users.. I just think that old fashioned air cool system could be more reliable since it has less parts to be taken care of.. of course at the cost of performance.

regards

ps: I think I explained me wrong on the previous post

[Kristoff]

Originally Posted by bovie

Does anyone know what apple uses in this system? I really don't think it is a water/antifrezze mix. I would almost bet money they are using glycol.

Right in this very thread, you'll find that I said it was water and propylene glycol.

[bovie]

Sorry, I posted very late last night and must have over looked it. Did anyone see the newer rev. of the water cooling setup here http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/ .

[Kristoff]

about ten posts up

[Cadaver]

Originally Posted by Kristoff

Right in this very thread, you'll find that I said it was water and propylene glycol.

You mean I can't drink the stuff leaking out of my dual 2.5??

Hmm... it was pretty tasty, though. Funny, but right after I drank all the stuff leaking out, my machine locked up and now it wont boot.

Doesn't really matter, though. I'm not really feeling all that good at the moment. I might just take myself to the hospital before I 8dfuv9d 8fh98ye94 87y9t3784 y8t73y4 8ihnjm,...............

[videian28]

I can tell you this is the ONE Mac I will garuntee I will buy applecare on, the liquid cooling scares me as much as it excites me lol

I did not bother with it on my last 3 Macs

[macaddict0001]

To the person who asked how much weight the cooling added it is less than a tenth of a pound.
it is also very small.

[darwin23]

Apple contracted these cooling systems to last 3+years, I'd find it hard to belive they'd be so short sighted as not to.

However, anyone who understands manufacturing, understands that what you pay for and what an OEM supplier ships to you can be two different things.

Apple would have been wise to have a clause in the contract with Delphi that stipulated Delphi's liability should cooling systems fail before 3 years. Maybe longer.

So, if we do see leaks and such before the end of extended Apple Care, smart money is on Delphi taking the cash hit for repairs/clean-up/replacement.

Apple is the Co. that will take the public "hit" as they sold the product, a wise contract would also include a "LOST SALES" clause, though I won't go so far as to say Delphi would have agreed to that.

Moving on............

Just from looking at the pictures of the "cooling system" leads me to jump to this conclusion.

1. Poor Quality hoses and Fittings.

I've got many PowerMacs older that 10-years, that have never needed repair, if this cooling system last that long without failing, I'll eat my hat.

What the h3ll were they thinking??? Two words, AIRCRAFT GRADE, any A and P's who look at this thing will be happy it can't fly without leaving the desktop. Sure I know it's a high standard to hold a Computer manufacturer to, however this is a TOL $3000 PowerMac not some $599 PC.

Aircraft grade lines and fitting maybe a bit over the top, I'd have settled for AC grade, you know the lines and fittings in your good old Train Heat and Air Unit, or your Whirlpool ice box.

Delphi is not some cooling system Co. they make OEM car parts and that is what they made for Apple. Anyone here who thinks that CHEVROLET cooling systems are better than the cooling system in your AC or Ice Box, should lay some white carpet in there garage.

I think I'd have gone with GE, they can still make top grade stuff, you just can't buy it at Wal-Mart.

[UnixMac]

Originally Posted by darwin23

What the h3ll were they thinking??? Two words, AIRCRAFT GRADE, any A and P's who look at this thing will be happy it can't fly without leaving the desktop. Sure I know it's a high standard to hold a Computer manufacturer to, however this is a TOL $3000 PowerMac not some $599 PC.

Aircraft grade lines and fitting maybe a bit over the top, I'd have settled for AC grade, you know the lines and fittings in your good old Train Heat and Air Unit, or your Whirlpool ice box.

I'm no A&P, but I am an ATP, and I agree with you... albeit we don't need STC'd parts, but Aircraft Grade quality would have cost them a bit more, but the savings in liability due to spills may have more than been worth it. American companies think short term though, and would never worry about a liability that could arise 3-4 years after the next "quarterly earnings report"