[lngtones]

http://www.reandev.com/taliban/

[Weyland-Yutani]

All I see is a bunch of people using Christianity to explain their bias. They are not Christians, they are abusing the faith. Notice that although they seem to be more or less on the same side, they do not agree among themselves. They are just pushing their personal agenda using religion. Too bad that religion has to be christianity.

They are all, each and every one, undermining the actual Christian religion.

Of all the quotes there though, I'd choose Ronald W. Reagan's as the most far out

"For the first time ever, everything is in place for the Battle of Armageddon and the Second Coming of Christ."

cheers

W-Y

[segovius]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

All I see is a bunch of people using Christianity to explain their bias. They are not Christians, they are abusing the faith. Notice that although they seem to be more or less on the same side, they do not agree among themselves. They are just pushing their personal agenda using religion. Too bad that religion has to be christianity.

Funny, because when I see some terrorist nutter or crazed fundie mulla, all I see is a bunch of people using Islam to explain their bias.

They are not Muslims, they are abusing the faith. Notice that although they seem to be more or less on the same side, they do not agree among themselves. They are just pushing their personal agenda using religion. Too bad that religion has to be Islam.

Difference is I suppose, that when it happens in Christianity it proves that the fundie is wrong and not the religion - with Islam it proves both are.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by segovius

Funny, because when I see some terrorist nutter or crazed fundie mulla, all I see is a bunch of people using Islam to explain their bias.

They are not Muslims, they are abusing the faith. Notice that although they seem to be more or less on the same side, they do not agree among themselves. They are just pushing their personal agenda using religion. Too bad that religion has to be Islam.

Difference is I suppose, that when it happens in Christianity it proves that the fundie is wrong and not the religion - with Islam it proves both are.

Ah.. ok. Is this pre-empetive defense of attacks against Islam, which is yet to be posted in this thread?

cheers

W-Y

[segovius]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

Ah.. ok. Is this pre-empetive defense of attacks against Islam, which is yet to be posted in this thread?

cheers

W-Y

No, I see no point in responding to such attacks before or after as the attackers are (perhaps by definition) not of a sufficient intellectual calibre to debate the issues.

I'm merely saying they are the same thing and stem from the same mindset but that people seem unable to face that front-on.

Still, you can attack if you want to though - unfortunately I have to watch some paint dry so I'll miss it but I'm sure it will be....err......up to the usual standard.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Indeed it will, rest assured. Although I don't expect much Islam-o-bashing in this thread. I don't know if you looked at the quotes in the link above, but not nearly all of them are from neo-cons, but from all sorts of people pushing their agenda using Christianity as cover.

Some are neo-cons, some are white supremists, some are just racists, some are homophobes, some are just plain aggressive. The only thing they have in common is that they choose to use Christianity as a cover. Not real Christianity, but their personal interpretation of it - something that doesn't exist. Unlike, say Islam or Judaism, Christianity is an organized religion with hirearchy.

These people are ignoring it and are heretics, goes without saying.

cheers

W-Y

[segovius]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

Indeed it will, rest assured. Although I don't expect much Islam-o-bashing in this thread. I don't know if you looked at the quotes in the link above, but not nearly all of them are from neo-cons, but from all sorts of people pushing their agenda using Christianity as cover.

Some are neo-cons, some are white supremists, some are just racists, some are homophobes, some are just plain aggressive. The only thing they have in common is that they choose to use Christianity as a cover. Not real Christianity, but their personal interpretation of it - something that doesn't exist. Unlike, say Islam or Judaism, Christianity is an organized religion with hirearchy.

These people are ignoring it and are heretics, goes without saying.

cheers

W-Y

Definitely agree. The fact that it has a hierarchy though is in itself heretical as clearly Jesus was not attempting to establish such an institution.

It's an interesting study isn't it - why people who are the opposite of spiritual (right-wingers, left-wingers, homophobes, racists etc) often seem to adhere most strongly to doctrines that are designed to combat those very characteristics.

Why is that do you think?

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

Indeed it will, rest assured. Although I don't expect much Islam-o-bashing in this thread. I don't know if you looked at the quotes in the link above, but not nearly all of them are from neo-cons, but from all sorts of people pushing their agenda using Christianity as cover.

Some are neo-cons, some are white supremists, some are just racists, some are homophobes, some are just plain aggressive. The only thing they have in common is that they choose to use Christianity as a cover. Not real Christianity, but their personal interpretation of it - something that doesn't exist. Unlike, say Islam or Judaism, Christianity is an organized religion with hirearchy.

These people are ignoring it and are heretics, goes without saying.

cheers

W-Y

One of them is a Jew.

You sure love throwing that word "heretics" around. Do you really follow 100% of what the RCC teaches? Or are you a heretic as well?

[Athens]

"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war."

"Not all Muslims may be terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims."

"Being nice to people is, in fact, one of the incidental tenets of Christianity, as opposed to other religions whose tenets are more along the lines of 'kill everyone who doesn't smell bad and doesn't answer to the name Mohammed'"

for the love of arrr that’s BS. She should be locked up or shoot. There are Christian terrorists in Africa, there are Jewish terrorists in the Middle East. Only the Islamic terrorists are making the most headlines because they are targeting Americans and Westerners. And I consider some of the actions of American troops during the Iraq war as terrorism too, and many American troops are Christian. To say all terrorists are Muslim is just wrong.

[segovius]

Originally Posted by Athens

To say all terrorists are Muslim is just wrong.

It is wrong in a factual sense but I think that the words of these people (not sure what to call them) need to be deconstructed in the light of their own world-view. In that sense they are true.

Let me explain....what we have here is a cult. Like all cults it has it's own slant in orthodox and existing doctrine but re-interprets these teachings in a unique way - one that applies only to themselves.

Like all cults, outsiders may not even know that the group is a cult - and there is the confusion.

This cult has specific views about gays, liberals etc and of course Muslims - in this view, to them, to be a Muslim IS to be a terrorist. The terms are interchangeable. Of course they do not mean terrorist in the way that is normally understood but that is because they are a cult - when a religious cult such as 'Aum' or Koresh's outfit says 'God' we should not think they have the same view of the word as is normally understood.

This is the leitmotif of a cult - the changing of words to mean something other than their original meaning whilst not necessarily informing everyone of this.

That is why members of this cult can say 'we do not torture' - in their view they don't. Torture is something terrorists do.

And again - the 'War on Terror'. Can't say 'War on Islam' so we need a bit of diplomacy.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by Railroader

One of them is a Jew.

You sure love throwing that word "heretics" around. Do you really follow 100% of what the RCC teaches? Or are you a heretic as well?

I must have missed the one who is a Jew. Frankly, I can't tell just by looking at people what religion they adhere to.

Furthermore the Christianity professed by groups such as Evangelicals and Pentacostals are closer to Judaism than Christianity because of the importance they put on the Old Testament. Regardless, not one of them is Christian, that much is clear.

As for me, I do try to follow the teachings of the Church, yes. Is anyone sinless? Is anyone perfect? Not by a long shot. What we have is choices and I try to make the right ones.

My opposition to the heretical Christians in general is less due to any fanaticsm to the Church as it is due to the undermining of Christianity they are causing by their very existence. Just as they always have.

cheers

W-Y

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by segovius

Definitely agree. The fact that it has a hierarchy though is in itself heretical as clearly Jesus was not attempting to establish such an institution.

It's an interesting study isn't it - why people who are the opposite of spiritual (right-wingers, left-wingers, homophobes, racists etc) often seem to adhere most strongly to doctrines that are designed to combat those very characteristics.

Why is that do you think?

First of all I would have to disagree on your claim that the Church is not made with the blessing of Christ, for that is its very foundation. Peter was granted the Keys of Heaven and the stewardship of Christendom.

Why is the Christian right the way they are? You're guess is as good as mine, I would guess their reasons are as varied and multiple as their interpretations of Christianity.

cheers

W-Y

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

All I see is a bunch of people using Christianity to explain their bias. They are not Christians, they are abusing the faith.

I really don't like this argument. They are abusing Christianity to foster their personal agenda, but if they believe in God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit they are Christians.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

I really don't like this argument. They are abusing Christianity to foster their personal agenda, but if they believe in God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit they are Christians.

Nor do I like it when people label them as Christians when they are not. Simple as that.

cheers

W-Y

[segovius]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

First of all I would have to disagree on your claim that the Church is not made with the blessing of Christ, for that is its very foundation. Peter was granted the Keys of Heaven and the stewardship of Christendom.

Well, it doesn't matter so much I think. If one follows the teachings of Christ and agrees with them (as I would try to do) then this is the important thing. The Church is right to the extent that it follows Christ's teachings - wrong to the extent that it does not.

As it's pretty much a fluctuation between the two throughout history then the important thing would be a relationship to God imo, as opposed to man.

Why is the Christian right the way they are? You're guess is as good as mine, I would guess their reasons are as varied and multiple as their interpretations of Christianity.

My personal opinion is that the major religions are derivations of an original teaching by people who taught a system of changing oneself for the better. Turning away from 'sin' or however one wants to phrase it.

Obviously there are many people who do not wish to do this and wish to carry on indulging themselves in their own particular lifestyles without seeing the need for personal change at all. This is fair enough, nothing wrong with that and it's no-one's place to judge it - the problem arises when such people (those who don't want to change) are too insecure to express themselves. When this happens they have to justify their behaviour by reference to a higher power (ie God) as this alone will give them psychological balance.

Therefore someone who might otherwise be gay, for example, might not feel able to embrace this aspect of themselves and will turn into a homophobe. The same insecurity prevents them from being an open homophobe and to take the flak that position entails so they justify it by 'God'. Thus removing the blame from themselves and being free to indulge their prejudice.

Same thing with racism and xenophobia as well as hatred of other religions although the factor of fear is a big factor in these cases.

That pretty much sums up the Christian right in the US. Though having said that, there are many real Christians today also - they are just not so voluble. The hostages currently kidnapped in Iraq would be an example of real Christians imo - they are far from the usual idiots hell-bent on 'evangelizing' and saving 'savages'.

[segovius]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

I really don't like this argument. They are abusing Christianity to foster their personal agenda, but if they believe in God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit they are Christians.

They are not following the teachings of Christ. It really is that simple.

Jesus said:

Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me you who practice lawlessness'.

He is not talking about 'sinners'. He is talking about 'Christians'.

[Doofy]

Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

[Athens]

the funny thing is I make a better Christian and a better Muslim then most that call themselves either or. I don't judge people, I see people as people, not Jews, not Muslims, not Black, not Asian. With the exception of going to church or praying 5 times a day I try to follow my life by good not because of a holly power but because I believe in being good. Maybe that’s my Canadianizim Identity for being that way I don't know. But when I see terrorists bombing and beheading people, they are not Muslims to me, the same goes when I see Christians judging and being racist, I don’t see them as being real Christians either.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by segovius

They are not following the teachings of Christ.

You don't have to follow the teachings of Christ to be a Christian. You only have to believe. We don't know what these people actually do believe, so we can't tell whether they are Christians or just pretend to be.

Originally Posted by segovius

Jesus said:

he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

And if some of them go to hell, I wouldn't be furious about it.

[segovius]

Originally Posted by Doofy

"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil. When someone strikes you on (your) right cheek, turn the other one to him as well."

[segovius]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

You don't have to follow the teachings of Christ to be a Christian. You only have to believe.

Action is needed in addition to belief:

Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock......Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by segovius

Action is needed in addition to belief:

No, it isn't. A Christian ist a person who:

I believe in God the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit
and born of the Virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius,
was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of God, the Father almighty.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.

No action is required. A Christian can murder, lie, rape, whatever. As long as he believes the above, he is a Christian.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

1I must have missed the one who is a Jew. Frankly, I can't tell just by looking at people what religion they adhere to.

Furthermore the Christianity professed by groups such as Evangelicals and Pentacostals are closer to Judaism than Christianity because of the importance they put on the Old Testament. Regardless, 2not one of them is Christian, that much is clear.

As for me, I do try to follow the teachings of the Church, yes. Is anyone sinless? Is anyone perfect? Not by a long shot. What we have is choices and I try to make the right ones.

My opposition to the heretical Christians in general is less due to any fanaticsm to the Church as it is due to the undermining of Christianity they are causing by their very existence. Just as they always have.

cheers

W-Y

1. You just assumed and made a mistake like the person who made the web site did. Looks like you were as ignorant as they were.

2. How unChristian of you to judge.

[segovius]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

No action is required. A Christian can murder, lie, rape, whatever. As long as he believes the above, he is a Christian.

Then we are back at the divide between the words of Christ and the words of men (ie the Church).

Christ did not speak those words. They cannot therefore take precedence over his.

Perhaps a person subscribing to that creed would be more of a 'Churchian'.

Also note that it stipulates Catholic Church - most of the people on the site under discussion are not only not Catholics but are opposed to the Catholic Church. Therefore by your own argument it proves they are not Christians.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by Railroader

1. You just assumed and made a mistake like the person who made the web site did. Looks like you were as ignorant as they were.

2. How unChristian of you to judge.

1. Not really, in my eyes there is no difference.

2. They have judged themselves.

3. Why all the strawmen?

cheers

W-Y

[segovius]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

1. Not really, in my eyes there is no difference.

2. They have judged themselves.

3. Why all the strawmen?

cheers

W-Y

Judging is not description.

Judgement implies censure and a penalty - as in 'you stole, you go to prison'.

Description as in saying 'that man is a thief' is not a judgement. It is a statement of fact.

You can clearly call someone a thief (if they are one) without judging them. Likewise with Christians. Jesus did it himself all the time.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by segovius

Christ did not speak those words. They cannot therefore take precedence over his.

Christ didn't found a church himself, so it's no surprise he didn't give a definition of the members. Anyway, God can forgive a man's sins, so it's appropriate that the church does not exclude the sinners.

Originally Posted by segovius

Also note that it stipulates Catholic Church - most of the people on the site under discussion are not only not Catholics but are opposed to the Catholic Church. Therefore by your own argument it proves they are not Christians.

"Catholic" in the creed is used in the meaning of "all-embracing" (note the lowercase "c"), not specific and limiting to the "Catholic Church" (though the Catholic Church is "alle-embracing" and therefore the "proper" Christian church).

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by segovius

Then we are back at the divide between the words of Christ and the words of men (ie the Church).

Christ did not speak those words. They cannot therefore take precedence over his.

Perhaps a person subscribing to that creed would be more of a 'Churchian'.

Also note that it stipulates Catholic Church - most of the people on the site under discussion are not only not Catholics but are opposed to the Catholic Church. Therefore by your own argument it proves they are not Christians.

It is agreed that the teachings of Christ are the single most important thing in Christianity. That is the core of the faith and Christ's words are what we choose to follow. Then we choose to enter Christendom. Those who do not choose to enter Christendom are not automatically doomed, but they are in danger of streying from the core - as has happened a lot in the USA and spread somewhat back to Europe. The Church is not the faith, but the Church has from the beginning been the keeper of the faith.

They collected the Bible and preserved it. Simply by using the Bible as a guide in life is taking part of the Church in an incomplete yet inescapable way. The Lord is our shepherd for certain and the Church is the shepherd's dog.

I agree with you that believing in every word of the Apostle's Creed is not enough to be a Christian, one must also act on it and follow Christ's teachings. One feels this goes without saying.

Congregations such as Evangelicals do not recite the Apostle's Creed AFAIK. At least not as it is written by the Church. If I were to take just one examle to prove that they are not Christian then I would choose their tendency to hold the Old Testament in higher esteem than the teachings of Christ. If there is a conflict between the Old Testament and the words of Christ, they - in my experience - choose to follow the Old Testament.

cheers

W-Y

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by segovius

Judging is not description.

Judgement implies censure and a penalty - as in 'you stole, you go to prison'.

Description as in saying 'that man is a thief' is not a judgement. It is a statement of fact.

You can clearly call someone a thief (if they are one) without judging them. Likewise with Christians. Jesus did it himself all the time.

I assumed that in this case he meant 'judging' as in 'make a ruling'. Perhaps I misunderstood what he meant. Whatever anyone wants to call it, the people on that website are not Christian. Not a single one of them. Basta.

cheers

W-Y

[loki74]

W-Y:You seem to be so very very sure of yourself. You leave no room for human error. How are you sure your interpretation of the Bible is the way God inted you to understand? Unless you mean to say that you are perfect, you cannot be without flaw, and it is possible that you are wrong. It's human error. Get used to it. Accept it.

===============

As far as the list and the quotes... it is probably one of the stupidest things ever concieved. I think we all know how easy it is to take a quote, kill all context, and spin it in a way we want to. Granted, some of the things said are really context independent and simply disgusting and/or wrong, and those I disagree with. There are crazies on either side of the spectrum, and to try and associate that evil with a religion that cazy holds, as if the religion endorses it, is equally disgusting if not identical to what those crazies are doing.

And until I see a list of the people each of the people on the list have personally killed, tortured, beheaded, have their family exterminated, etc etc, the comparison to extreme islam does not hold.

If we want to compare atrocities done in the name of Christianity to atrocities done in the name of Islam, we need look no further than the Crusades. But in modern times, there is no comparison. It would be convenient if there was, because then the extreme left (namely the people who put up that bullsh!t list) would actually have ground to stand on. But there isn't and they don't, so to the OP: Nice try.*

*(I'm assuming you agree with the creator of that list, as you have left no opinion of your own. Remember rule 8?)

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

"Catholic" in the creed is used in the meaning of "all-embracing" (note the lowercase "c"), not specific and limiting to the "Catholic Church" (though the Catholic Church is "alle-embracing" and therefore the "proper" Christian church).

I've tried explaining that to him in the past, but he would rather remain ignorant of the truth (common trait with some members of the RCC). Oh well, I suppose their "heaven" will be a place w/o doors or windows, so that they can't see that people of other denominations got there too.

[Pendergast]

I love letters.

You can put them together and create a meaning out of them without having any ideas of how they are related to reality.

Good job everyone!

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

Congregations such as Evangelicals do not recite the Apostle's Creed AFAIK. At least not as it is written by the Church. If I were to take just one examle to prove that they are not Christian then I would choose their tendency to hold the Old Testament in higher esteem than the teachings of Christ. If there is a conflict between the Old Testament and the words of Christ, they - in my experience - choose to follow the Old Testament.

cheers

W-Y

You could not be more wrong. This simple revelation you have made here explains all of your ignorant statements in the past. You are simply completely ignorant of non-Catholic churches in America (that's the USA for you who have a very limited worldview like W-Y here). You should educate yourself extensively before you make a single comment again about any church other then the Catholic church you attend.

And on a side note: WHERE IS THERE A SINGLE CONFLICT IN THE OLD TESTAMENT AND WITH JESUS CHRIST'S TEACHINGS?!?!?! HAVE YOU EVER READ THE BIBLE?!?!?!

From my experience, most Catholics from any country don't actually read the Bible. Sure, they have gospel readings during mass, but they don't crack the book open at home.

I usually read through it once or twice a year. Do you?

[Rolling Bones]

Christians fighting with one another!

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

You'll all burn in everlasting HELL!

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

You're ignorant! You're ignorant! NaNaNaNaNa.

Thanx for the laff guys.

[loki74]

Originally Posted by Rolling Bones

Christians fighting with one another!

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

You'll all burn in everlasting HELL!

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

You're ignorant! You're ignorant! NaNaNaNaNa.

Thanx for the laff guys.

Don't post nonsense threads, +1 posts, or anything else with no semantic value.

Please follow the rules. ...or at least try.

========

My contribution, that actually has semantic value....

I attend a private Lutheran school. Not only are the people here very nice (in general), we do go over (if only very lighly) the Apostles Creed and some other stuff. Granted I've forgotten most of it by now, but its not like we other denominations (I am personally nondenominational) are oh so closed minded and look ONLY and the OT. In fact, much more weight and time is given to the NT--the OT primarily provides context for the stuff in the NT, and also has some good stuff with regards to Apologetics. I have NO idea where you are getting your picture of the American Christian churches, W-Y, but from what I've seen, it is very flawed.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Rolling Bones

Christians fighting with one another!

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

You'll all burn in everlasting HELL!

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

You're ignorant! You're ignorant! NaNaNaNaNa.

Thanx for the laff guys.

Ironic post of the month™. From a racist no less.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by segovius

They are not following the teachings of Christ. It really is that simple.
Jesus said:
He is not talking about 'sinners'. He is talking about 'Christians'.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Railroader

Ironic post of the month™. From a racist no less.

You expected more? "Odious" doesn't even begin to describe him.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

I've tried explaining that to him in the past, but he would rather remain ignorant of the truth (common trait with some members of the RCC). Oh well, I suppose their "heaven" will be a place w/o doors or windows, so that they can't see that people of other denominations got there too.

Projection, ego-masturbation and personal attacks rolled into one, well done.

cheers

W-Y

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by loki74

How are you sure your interpretation of the Bible is the way God inted you to understand?

The very important fact that I do not interpret the Bible, so that doesn't enter into it. Who am I to interpret that book anyway since the best I can do is interpret an interpration. I do not speak greek or any of the ancient languages of the area around Israel. You think I am sure of myself when I am only sure of the Church.

cheers

W-Y

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

Projection, ego-masturbation and personal attacks rolled into one, well done.

cheers

W-Y

So, you reply with an ad hominem? Wow, you really showed me. C'mon, reply with some substance, prove me wrong.

I just find it amazing that your Jesus is so much more exclusive than everyone else's.

That's not to say all RCC members and clergy are so exclusive, the vast majority that I know (including priests, Bishops and Cardinals) will admit that other denominations are Christians (and as such are seeking out their salvation in Christ), but there's always a few who believe that such a thing is only possible within their private belief structure. Oh well, that's the millstone around their neck, and they have to deal with it.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by Railroader

You could not be more wrong. This simple revelation you have made here explains all of your ignorant statements in the past. You are simply completely ignorant of non-Catholic churches in America (that's the USA for you who have a very limited worldview like W-Y here). You should educate yourself extensively before you make a single comment again about any church other then the Catholic church you attend.

Interesting. So Evangelists recite and respect the Apostle's Creed? Oh wait, no they don't.

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come again to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. AMEN.

Evangelists believe in the holy catholic church and the communion of saints? Well then, if that is the case I was wrong about Evangelists, but I wasn't. You are however wrong, yet again.
The rabidness of your posts reminds me of a dog who has had his skull beaten in and with blood over his eyes just keeps on attacking. It is more sad than pathetic.

And on a side note: WHERE IS THERE A SINGLE CONFLICT IN THE OLD TESTAMENT AND WITH JESUS CHRIST'S TEACHINGS?!?!?! HAVE YOU EVER READ THE BIBLE?!?!?!

Makes me wonder if you have. Are even talking about the same book or have you guys re-edited the Bible to suit your "religion"/cult.

From my experience, most Catholics from any country don't actually read the Bible. Sure, they have gospel readings during mass, but they don't crack the book open at home.

I hear communists eat their children.

I usually read through it once or twice a year. Do you?

I applaud you for your Bible-reading, but Christianity is not a book-of-the-month club. You have to live it too. Act.

cheers

W-Y

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by loki74

I attend a private Lutheran school. Not only are the people here very nice (in general), we do go over (if only very lighly) the Apostles Creed and some other stuff. Granted I've forgotten most of it by now, but its not like we other denominations (I am personally nondenominational) are oh so closed minded and look ONLY and the OT. In fact, much more weight and time is given to the NT--the OT primarily provides context for the stuff in the NT, and also has some good stuff with regards to Apologetics. I have NO idea where you are getting your picture of the American Christian churches, W-Y, but from what I've seen, it is very flawed.

Lutheran Christianity is quite respectable in the eyes of the Church. When I speak of American Christian churches I am not speaking of Lutheran churches. I speak of origin, not of nationality when I talk about American churches.

Lutheran Christianity is of 16th century European origin and has share close ties and history with the Catholic Church and most of its values and many of its sacraments.

Evangelism, Pentacostalism, Charismatic movement etc is what I refer to when I speak of American Christianity, the heretics. They exist all over the world, but they are originally American. I do believe that I mentioned that before, but it bears repeating.

cheers

W-Y

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

So, you reply with an ad hominem? Wow, you really showed me. C'mon, reply with some substance, prove me wrong.

I just find it amazing that your Jesus is so much more exclusive than everyone else's.

That's not to say all RCC members and clergy are so exclusive, the vast majority that I know (including priests, Bishops and Cardinals) will admit that other denominations are Christians (and as such are seeking out their salvation in Christ), but there's always a few who believe that such a thing is only possible within their private belief structure. Oh well, that's the millstone around their neck, and they have to deal with it.

Ad-hominem?

No, not really. That was a comment on the post you made, not your persona. And yet again, you write a post without substance. There is nothing to comment on, nothing to refute. Your anecdotal experiences are your own and I'll take your word for them, but they are worthless.

If you are not getting the response you desire from me, as indicated in the first sentence of this quote, then perhaps you are just not interesting enough to debate with so I can't be bothered?

cheers

W-Y

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

Ad-hominem?

No, not really. That was a comment on the post you made, not your persona. And yet again, you write a post without substance. There is nothing to comment on, nothing to refute. Your anecdotal experiences are your own and I'll take your word for them, but they are worthless.

If you are not getting the response you desire from me, as indicated in the first sentence of this quote, then perhaps you are just not interesting enough to debate with so I can't be bothered?

cheers

W-Y

Now THAT is a cop out.

Ok, I'll slow it down and spell it out. Explain to me why you believe the RCC is the only Christian church, and why only people in the RCC are "going to heaven"? This isn't to say that I haven't heard that argument before, I have, I just want to hear you defend it.

[loki74]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

The very important fact that I do not interpret the Bible, so that doesn't enter into it. Who am I to interpret that book anyway since the best I can do is interpret an interpration. I do not speak greek or any of the ancient languages of the area around Israel. You think I am sure of myself when I am only sure of the Church.

cheers

W-Y

So you don't ...read the Bibile? You only believe what the Church leaders say? How are you then so sure of thier interpretation? Human error is present in all humans, no matter who they are. (Well, except for Jesus; if we are to consider Him human, He is obviously THE exception). And at this point, are you not interpreting someones (the Church leader) interpretation of someones (the translator) interpretation? Or if your Church leaders are reading from the original language, you can cut one layer of interpretation out, but still...

Case and point--always leave room for the possibility that you are wrong.

[olePigeon]

Organized religion is bad, mmmkay.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

Interesting. So Evangelists recite and respect the Apostle's Creed? Oh wait, no they don't.

I don't know what Churches you have been to in America, but I assure you, every church I have been to has recited the Apostle's Creed at one point. Hva eyou ever been to America, or are you speaking out of pure ignorance again?

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

Evangelists believe in the holy catholic church and the communion of saints? Well then, if that is the case I was wrong about Evangelists, but I wasn't. You are however wrong, yet again.

Do you know what the work "Catholic" means? You post indicates you don't.

And now you're telling me we don't commune as saints? Amazing. your ingorance and ability to spout it has no bounds again!

You sir, are the one who is wrong. And HIGHLY ignorant.

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

The rabidness of your posts reminds me of a dog who has had his skull beaten in and with blood over his eyes just keeps on attacking. It is more sad than pathetic.

Pot, meet kettle.

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

Makes me wonder if you have. Are even talking about the same book or have you guys re-edited the Bible to suit your "religion"/cult.

Says the guy who won't even attempt to read it. You amaze me.

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

I hear communists eat their children.

I have never heard such thing.

I was speaking out of experience. Have you read the bible? When was the last time you dwelled in The Word? Do you daily read it and try to understand it? Or do you rely on sinful men with sinful intentions to interpret it for you?

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

I applaud you for your Bible-reading, but Christianity is not a book-of-the-month club. You have to live it too. Act.

I believed in Christ before I ever read the Bible. I read it now as an act of submission and devotion to Him. I suggest you should too.

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

cheers

W-Y

Drink up!

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by loki74

So you don't ...read the Bibile? You only believe what the Church leaders say? How are you then so sure of thier interpretation? Human error is present in all humans, no matter who they are. (Well, except for Jesus; if we are to consider Him human, He is obviously THE exception). And at this point, are you not interpreting someones (the Church leader) interpretation of someones (the translator) interpretation? Or if your Church leaders are reading from the original language, you can cut one layer of interpretation out, but still...

Case and point--always leave room for the possibility that you are wrong.

VERY well put. You amaze me again Loki.

W-Y sounds like most of the lazy Catholics I have met. They are what I call Holiday Christians.

Hey W-Y, do you eat and run? I have seent his happen to EVERY Catholic church I have ever attended. The lack of respect in the Catholic church is astounding.

[Face Ache]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

Organized religion is bad, mmmkay.

They don't seem too organized to me.