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You are here: MacNN Forums > Hardware - Troubleshooting and Discussion > Mac Desktops > iMac mini why DVI instead of HDMI?

iMac mini why DVI instead of HDMI?
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macbarry
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Jan 3, 2005, 11:36 AM
 
In all of the chatter about the rumored headless iMac mini I have not seen any comments about it's possible use of the new HDMI interface :http://www.pacificcable.com/HDMI_Tutorial.htm

It seems to me that the next frontier of electronics marketing is in the simplified integration of the computer with consumer audio/video equipment. Many non-tech savy (but voracious "home theater" wannabe media) consumers are overwhelmed by the thought of trying to hook up their computers to surround sound systems, DVRs, cable boxes and modems all ultimately leading to their big HD screen tvs. If Apple can make this process cheaper and easier then they could easily beat the competition to the prize.

With this in mind could someone explain to me why the new HDMI interface would not be something that Apple might exploit to help make this home media integration easier for the consumer?
     
mitchell_pgh
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Jan 3, 2005, 11:53 AM
 
Quick Answer: Show me a HDMI computer monitor.

Long Answer: DVI and HDMI transfer video data in an identical manner, in a digital format. The only advantage to HDMI is that it includes the audio in the same cable. So you have one cable vs. two. DVI makes more sense.
     
dannyillusion
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Jan 3, 2005, 01:27 PM
 
Uhum, think apples ADC attempt... it made sense but never caught on with other manufacturers... before that they tried their own VGA connector as well.
If the iMac Mini comes about they won't dare to alienate potential customers by using technologies or interfaces that aren't proven...
DI
     
mitchell_pgh
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Jan 3, 2005, 02:16 PM
 
Originally posted by dannyillusion:
Uhum, think apples ADC attempt... it made sense but never caught on with other manufacturers... before that they tried their own VGA connector as well.
If the iMac Mini comes about they won't dare to alienate potential customers by using technologies or interfaces that aren't proven...
I agree, but the issue with ADC is that it was an Apple only technology... nobody else was on board. HDMI is going to be popular (most likely)... but DVI is the way to go for now...
     
tooki
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Jan 3, 2005, 02:29 PM
 
HDMI is already popular. I'd say that right now, half of HDTVs that have digital inputs have DVI inputs, half have HDMI.

tooki
     
mitchell_pgh
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Jan 3, 2005, 02:55 PM
 
Originally posted by tooki:
HDMI is already popular. I'd say that right now, half of HDTVs that have digital inputs have DVI inputs, half have HDMI.

tooki
True, but few, if any, computer monitors have HDMI. So I would still say DVI is the way to go.
     
macbarry  (op)
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Jan 3, 2005, 10:05 PM
 
Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
True, but few, if any, computer monitors have HDMI. So I would still say DVI is the way to go.
The HDMI has the added advantage over the DVI of being physically smaller and is a single plug that looks similar to USB.
http://www.gefen.com/kvm/products/dvi-hdmi.jsp

Single, smaller, does more. Seems to me that DVI has no advantages other than it's status as the monitor standard interface of the moment.

If the adoption of HDMI by an increasing number of large screen HDTVs mfgs continues this could mean a change in the current consumer perception of needing both a computer "monitor" AND a TV. Will HDMI emerge as a standard ahead of the Apple curve just like USB? Maybe we'll find out more at MWSF...
     
mitchell_pgh
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Jan 3, 2005, 10:28 PM
 
Originally posted by macbarry:
The HDMI has the added advantage over the DVI of being physically smaller and is a single plug that looks similar to USB.
http://www.gefen.com/kvm/products/dvi-hdmi.jsp

Single, smaller, does more. Seems to me that DVI has no advantages other than it's status as the monitor standard interface of the moment.

If the adoption of HDMI by an increasing number of large screen HDTVs mfgs continues this could mean a change in the current consumer perception of needing both a computer "monitor" AND a TV. Will HDMI emerge as a standard ahead of the Apple curve just like USB? Maybe we'll find out more at MWSF...
% of HDTVs with DVI = 50%
% of High End Monitors with DVI = 100%

I think they would go DVI. I'm not saying either format is better, they are just different. Also, HDMI cables are expensive! I think people would freak out if they purchased a $500 mac and found out the only way to connect it to their TV was a $150 cable.
     
LeeG
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Jan 6, 2005, 11:19 PM
 
I use an HDMI cable now for my HDTV, but as has been stated, why alienate ALL of the digital computer displays?

If your HDTV only has HDMI, and you want to use that digital input, get a converter...

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mitchell_pgh
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Jan 7, 2005, 02:04 PM
 
Originally posted by LeeG:
I use an HDMI cable now for my HDTV, but as has been stated, why alienate ALL of the digital computer displays?

If your HDTV only has HDMI, and you want to use that digital input, get a converter...

Lee
Yah, I don't have anything against HDMI, I just think DVI would make more sense for the iMac mini (or whatever)
     
Leonard
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Jan 7, 2005, 04:45 PM
 
Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
% of HDTVs with DVI = 50%
% of High End Monitors with DVI = 100%

I think they would go DVI. I'm not saying either format is better, they are just different. Also, HDMI cables are expensive! I think people would freak out if they purchased a $500 mac and found out the only way to connect it to their TV was a $150 cable.
Yah, I agree with mitchell_pgh, why not target 75% of the monitors and TVs and cover off the other 25% with an adapter. Rather than targetting 25% and covering off the other 75% with an adapter.

Of course this assumes, that your low-end consumer is going to have a HDTV, there are still quite a few 4:3 SD TVs out there. Then again everything is supposed to be going HDTV here in North America.
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kikkoman
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Jan 11, 2005, 04:27 PM
 
HDMI requires the implementation of HDCP which would make it incompatible with every computer monitor out there.
     
tooki
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Jan 11, 2005, 07:31 PM
 
Does HDMI even have the ability to carry analog VGA video? That's another reason to go with DVI instead of HDMI.

tooki
     
LeeG
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Jan 11, 2005, 10:34 PM
 
Originally posted by kikkoman:
HDMI requires the implementation of HDCP which would make it incompatible with every computer monitor out there.
This is true...


L
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milhous
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Jan 12, 2005, 02:37 AM
 
Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
Quick Answer: Show me a HDMI computer monitor.

Long Answer: DVI and HDMI transfer video data in an identical manner, in a digital format. The only advantage to HDMI is that it includes the audio in the same cable. So you have one cable vs. two. DVI makes more sense.
right on the money mitchell_pgh, case closed!
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Big Mac
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Jan 12, 2005, 05:58 PM
 
People were under the mistaken impression that the mini was a digital hub rather than a miniature Mac. Apple's positioning of the product does not suggest multimedia integration. TV just isn't where Apple wishes to be; for better or worse we must continue to look to third parties to compensate.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
Simon
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Jan 13, 2005, 04:11 AM
 
Originally posted by Big Mac:
People were under the mistaken impression that the mini was a digital hub rather than a miniature Mac. Apple's positioning of the product does not suggest multimedia integration. TV just isn't where Apple wishes to be; for better or worse we must continue to look to third parties to compensate.
I think you're absolutely right.

If we want to hook up our media serving Macs to a TV, we should look at Elgato's systems.
     
icibaqu
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Jan 14, 2005, 03:08 PM
 
well i posted about this in anther forum, but no one has answered - so this seems to the best bet in this forum.

basically - what are the different req's between a 20" cinema and a 23" cinema HD screens. will the mac mini support the 23" or would i have to get one of mac's laptops to do that? the idea is to use the mini orlaptop as a computer but also use it to play dvd's and maybe the occasional tv show.

any commetns?
     
Severed Hand of Skywalker
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Jan 14, 2005, 05:40 PM
 
Originally posted by tooki:
HDMI is already popular. I'd say that right now, half of HDTVs that have digital inputs have DVI inputs, half have HDMI.

tooki
My TV has one of each, HDMI is better but I have never seen a computer monitor that has one mostly because they don't need the sound to go to the monitor.

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mitchell_pgh
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Jan 14, 2005, 07:00 PM
 
Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
My TV has one of each, HDMI is better but I have never seen a computer monitor that has one mostly because they don't need the sound to go to the monitor.
Technically, it's not better, it's just different. The video signal from HDMI and DVI are identical. HDMI just includes the audio.
     
Simon
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Jan 15, 2005, 04:52 AM
 
Originally posted by icibaqu:
basically - what are the different req's between a 20" cinema and a 23" cinema HD screens. will the mac mini support the 23" or would i have to get one of mac's laptops to do that?
From http://www.apple.com/macmini/specs.html

Video
DVI video output for digital resolutions up to 1920 x 1200 pixels; supports 20-inch Apple Cinema display and 23-inch Apple Cinema HD display; supports coherent digital displays up to 154MHz; supports non-coherent digital displays up to 135MHz
     
icibaqu
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Jan 16, 2005, 12:57 PM
 
Originally posted by Simon:
From http://www.apple.com/macmini/specs.html

Video
DVI video output for digital resolutions up to 1920 x 1200 pixels; supports 20-inch Apple Cinema display and 23-inch Apple Cinema HD display; supports coherent digital displays up to 154MHz; supports non-coherent digital displays up to 135MHz
simon - thanks so much. i saw that later (don't know why my eyes had somehow skipped over it). that's VERY good news! the mac mini has now become full on true affordable HOTNESS. HD display here i come! (pending tiger's release or grad school graduation, whichever comes first).
     
retroneo
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Jan 19, 2005, 10:44 PM
 
HDMI has encrypted video signals (i.e. DRM)
     
jcadam
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Jan 20, 2005, 12:58 PM
 
Originally posted by Leonard:
Yah, I agree with mitchell_pgh, why not target 75% of the monitors and TVs and cover off the other 25% with an adapter. Rather than targetting 25% and covering off the other 75% with an adapter.

Of course this assumes, that your low-end consumer is going to have a HDTV, there are still quite a few 4:3 SD TVs out there. Then again everything is supposed to be going HDTV here in North America.
I still have a 4:3 low-res NTSC television. But it is more for my wife, as I don't watch much TV.

As I recall, the conversion to HDTV was supposed to have been done years ago

My local PX has a few standard TVs and one cubic a$$load of high-ticket HDTVs. I really can't justify spending that much $$ on a device whose sole purpose is entertainment.

At least I can do some work on my Dual PMG5 in-between pr0n surfing sessions.
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jcadam
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Jan 20, 2005, 01:02 PM
 
Originally posted by retroneo:
HDMI has encrypted video signals (i.e. DRM)
I imagine that would introduce a delay in the refresh rate of the image (overhead for encryption/decryption). Which might be ok for 30fps live-motion video. But absolutely unacceptable for use with a computer.
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daiSho
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Jan 21, 2005, 07:53 AM
 
hope this isn't considered a derailment of this threads intent, but can anyone offer an opinion of how the performance would be w/ a mini mated to an older style 23" Cinema display (w/ prerequisite ADC->DVI converter of course). i realize that the 32mb of VRAM is going to make Expose near useless at such a high resolution, but aside from Expose, would daily use of the system suffer in any other way?

i just got my mini in the mail today, and have an opportunity to purchase a 23" Cinema from a local friend for a *very* good price, and am considering setting the two up together for my wife to use... she currently has a 17" 800MHz iMac, so it would seemingly be a very nice step up. also, she would have no interest in gaming whatsoever...

any thoughts on the real-world performance of such a pairing would be greatly appreciated... she can easily live w/out Expose (actually she cant stand it, i don't know why!), so if thats the only caveat then i would definitely set the two up together...

thx in advance for any input friends..!
     
iomatic
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Jan 21, 2005, 02:51 PM
 
This line of questioning falls along the lines of, "well, why doesn't it have X?" Answer: Because it would cost more. If it's not a proliferated standard, I highly doubt Apple would include it; the marketshare for DVI screens far outweighs HDMI -- right now. Probably, later versions will include the hybrid DVI/VGA and HDMI outputs. And, like others said, it's probably not what the product is positioned for.

I see a plethora of add-ons coming in the future...
     
   
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