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analogue SPRINKLES · Apr 9, 2007, 06:09 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

Actually, to be picky. They supported DVD-RAM first. Then they supported DVD-R (and disabled DVD-RAM). They they supported DVD+R and DVD-R.

Ya I couldn't remember the exact formats all I remember is they shipped Sony/whatever drives in the pro G5 towers and made a custom ROM that disabled certain formats that it normally supports.

Eug · Apr 9, 2007, 06:13 PM

Yeah, when they supported DVD-RAM, DVD-R wasn't available yet.

The interesting thing is that although they killed DVD-RAM in their later drives, Apple has never removed support for DVD-RAM in the OS (obviously). If you have a 3rd party DVD-RAM drive (or else a flashed Apple drive), DVD-RAM works great in OS X. It's like a 4+ GB removable hard drive. You can use HFS+ or FAT32 or whatever.

aristotles · Apr 9, 2007, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

That doesn't really make sense as their software already supports HD DVD.

iTunes on windows supports import of WMA but that does not mean they are a proponent of the format. Again, you are referring to FCP Studio which is not a consumer product. As soon as any Joe Blow with a mac and a Blu-ray or HD-DVD burner can author and burn either Blu-ray or HD-DVD format, then you will see momentum behind that format. Hacks like HD-DVD on DVD are not a significant factor in the overall market.

To put it as simply as possible. Pro market = small Consumer market = big. Whichever format the consumers choose for their home media projects will be the winner.

Apple came out publicly in support of Blu-Ray when they joined the board.

Eug · Apr 9, 2007, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by aristotles

iTunes on windows supports import of WMA but that does not mean they are a proponent of the format.

Not the same thing at all. iTunes cannot play back WMA. It can convert them to AAC. Apple software can make HD DVD, and play those discs natively.

Again, you are referring to FCP Studio which is not a consumer product.

DVD Player.app

Hacks like HD-DVD on DVD are not a significant factor in the overall market.

It's not a hack. As we've already discussed, it's an official HD DVD format. It exists because the DVD Forum put it in the spec, at the request of Warner Bros and others.

goMac · Apr 9, 2007, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by aristotles

Apple does not support HD-DVD burning at all or HD-DVD authoring in iLife for consumers so what is your point. I don't think they will go blu-ray only in the pro apps but it seems likely that they will go for blu-ray for consumers. There are no HD-DVD burners even from third-parties for the mac. There are blu-ray burners from third-parties and Toast Titanium 8 provides OS integration of Blu-ray into OS X.

Apple doesn't support Bluray either currently, so I'm really not sure what your point is. I could write my own HD-DVD drive kernel extension tomorrow and it wouldn't translate into HD-DVD support from Apple.

Originally Posted by aristotles

I am no expert on this but I believe that you are oversimplifying things. Authoring an HD-DVD structure is one thing while burning is another matter.

I don't think you get it. HD-DVD and DVD are the same format. They were both done by the same group. HD-DVD is basically an extension to the original DVD format, so there are no issues with burning HD-DVD's to DVD media.

Originally Posted by aristotles

Apple is a member of the DVD forum but they are not a supporting member of the HD-DVD standard. Look it up on google. MSFT is there but Apple is not.

The DVD Forum IS the HD-DVD standard group. Not to mention by Apple's own press release they are a supporting member of HD-DVD. Are you going to argue with Apple on that?

Originally Posted by aristotles

Apple has never said they prefer Blu-ray? Really? Why would they go through the trouble of becoming part of the board and not becoming part of the group directly responsible for HD-DVD. As you pointed out, the DVD-forum is a large organization with a number of projects. Apple has not come out publicly in support for the HD-DVD standard. They have however, said they will support both in their pro level apps. There is a difference between providing software support and coming out in "support" for a format.

Trouble? I'm guessing they were invited on.

They never said they wouldn't support both in their pro level apps. Heck, they haven't even said they will support Bluray in their pro level apps.

Originally Posted by aristotles

Blu-ray Disc Association Welcomes Apple to Its Board of Directors

You don't get it. Apple has been a member of the HD-DVD group for a long time, because it's the same group that did DVD. That's why there is no press release for Apple joining the HD-DVD group. They have been a member for a long, long time.

Here again is the listing of members of the group doing HD-DVD. Note that Apple is on the list:
Member List

aristotles · Apr 10, 2007, 12:46 AM

Originally Posted by goMac

I don't think you get it. HD-DVD and DVD are the same format. They were both done by the same group. HD-DVD is basically an extension to the original DVD format, so there are no issues with burning HD-DVD's to DVD media.

*Sigh*. They are not the same format. Take a look at the data structures and directory structures not to mention that DVD only supports Mpeg2 while HD-DVD supports three and most of the initial content was VC-1 (MSFT's format). I'm a software developer and I'm guessing that you are not. You are confusing medium with file formats and structures.

Originally Posted by goMac

The DVD Forum IS the HD-DVD standard group. Not to mention by Apple's own press release they are a supporting member of HD-DVD. Are you going to argue with Apple on that?

The DVD forum was setup to develop the DVD format. Apple joined the group before the HD-DVD project but the HD-DVD project is a subset of the DVD forum.

Originally Posted by goMac

You don't get it. Apple has been a member of the HD-DVD group for a long time, because it's the same group that did DVD. That's why there is no press release for Apple joining the HD-DVD group. They have been a member for a long, long time.

I get it quite well thank you but you do not seem to understand that Apple never became an active member of the HD-DVD group which is a subcommittee of the DVD forum.

Originally Posted by goMac

Here again is the listing of members of the group doing HD-DVD. Note that Apple is on the list:
Member List

Yeah, and I see the DVD logo in the corner as well as a sub-menu for HD-DVD. I also can tell you that Apple was a member of the forum and listed on that page long before HD-DVD was conceived.

Check this page out:
http://www.hddvdprg.com/eng/about/member.html

It lists the members of the HD-DVD promotion group which is chaired by Toshiba. You will note that Microsoft is present on that list but Apple is notably absent.

You can ignore that page if you wish, that HD-DVD is a subgroup if the older DVD forum, or that the list for the DVD forum member page is a lot longer than the HD-DVD group page. Go ahead and declare victory if you wish.

You know, I'm almost tempted to post that picture of the special olympics kid but I would almost feel I would be insulting him to equate some of you with him.

Reading comprehension is fundamental.

hmurchison2001 · Apr 10, 2007, 01:21 AM

Originally Posted by aristotles

*Sigh*. They are not the same format. Take a look at the data structures and directory structures not to mention that DVD only supports Mpeg2 while HD-DVD supports three and most of the initial content was VC-1 (MSFT's format). I'm a software developer and I'm guessing that you are not. You are confusing medium with file formats and structures.
The DVD forum was setup to develop the DVD format. Apple joined the group before the HD-DVD project but the HD-DVD project is a subset of the DVD forum.
I get it quite well thank you but you do not seem to understand that Apple never became an active member of the HD-DVD group which is a subcommittee of the DVD forum.
Yeah, and I see the DVD logo in the corner as well as a sub-menu for HD-DVD. I also can tell you that Apple was a member of the forum and listed on that page long before HD-DVD was conceived.
Check this page out:
http://www.hddvdprg.com/eng/about/member.html
It lists the members of the HD-DVD promotion group which is chaired by Toshiba. You will note that Microsoft is present on that list but Apple is notably absent.
You can ignore that page if you wish, that HD-DVD is a subgroup if the older DVD forum, or that the list for the DVD forum member page is a lot longer than the HD-DVD group page. Go ahead and declare victory if you wish.
You know, I'm almost tempted to post that picture of the special olympics kid but I would almost feel I would be insulting him to equate some of you with him.
Reading comprehension is fundamental.

He is correct in equating the disc structure with that of DVD. Both use two .6mm subtrates and a similar 6x numerical aperture which is why existing DVD-9 lines can be upgraded to press HD DVD.

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2005/apr/17hd.html

Apple is committed to both emerging high definition DVD standards—Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD. Apple is an active member of the DVD Forum which developed the HD DVD standard, and last month joined the Board of Directors of the Blu-ray Disc Association.

Apple is basically clarifying here. "Yes we joined the BoD for Blu-ray but we're still in the DVD forum and committed to both formats.

http://www.macworld.com/news/2007/01...time/index.php

Case in point: Both sides in the ongoing DVD format war—Blu-ray and HD DVD—have adopted QuickTime and H.264. So while Apple may hold a seat on the Blu-Ray Disc Association’s Board of Directors, it sees the format fight as a win-win situation for its technology.

“We are part of both of those technologies and are happy, regardless of the outcome, that H.264 is part of the overall equation,” Casanova said.

That's about as neutral of a statement as they come.

Apple doesn't have to join the Promotions Group. They have all the access they need by being in the DVD Forum.

I'm personally glad Apple is taking the high road and supporting both platforms. They make authoring tools and if there's a substantial market for both then why limit yourself?

aristotles · 01:41 AM

Originally Posted by hmurchison2001

He is correct in equating the disc structure with that of DVD. Both use two .6mm subtrates and a similar 6x numerical aperture which is why existing DVD-9 lines can be upgraded to press HD DVD.

Apple Continues to Lead the Industry in the Adoption of HD Video at NAB

Apple is basically clarifying here. "Yes we joined the BoD for Blu-ray but we're still in the DVD forum and committed to both formats.

Macworld: News: As QuickTime hits milestone, Apple looks ahead

That's about as neutral of a statement as they come.

Apple doesn't have to join the Promotions Group. They have all the access they need by being in the DVD Forum.

I'm personally glad Apple is taking the high road and supporting both platforms. They make authoring tools and if there's a substantial market for both then why limit yourself?

Apple is not part of the promotional group. Apple has said they will support whatever format(s) that consumers want but the fact remain that they are not part of the HD-DVD group.

I was not talking about the structure of the layers. I was referring to the directory and file structures. They are different.

I give up, you "fill in the blanks" win but you are still "fill in the blanks". I'm tired of arguing. It is pointless.

HD-DVD Promotion Members:
Member List - HD DVD Promotion Group

Look at this link:
Steering Committee Companies

*Gasp*
Sony is on the list. Does that mean they support HD-DVD?

goMac · Apr 10, 2007, 02:15 AM

Originally Posted by aristotles

Apple is not part of the promotional group. Apple has said they will support whatever format(s) that consumers want but the fact remain that they are not part of the HD-DVD group.

So please explain why Apple has said in press releases that they are supporting HD-DVD. And why they're a member of the group.

(If they aren't, please find the web page of the "HD-DVD group" that shows who the members are.)

Originally Posted by aristotles

I was not talking about the structure of the layers. I was referring to the directory and file structures. They are different.

Do you realize how many formats are used on DVD that don't follow the same file structure as a DVD? This is a dumb point, it doesn't make HD-DVD on DVD any less of a format.

Originally Posted by aristotles

I give up, you "fill in the blanks" win but you are still "fill in the blanks". I'm tired of arguing. It is pointless.

I'm not filling in the blanks. You're making blanks that don't exist.

Originally Posted by aristotles

HD-DVD Promotion Members:
Member List - HD DVD Promotion Group

Guess who's not in the Bluray Promotional group? I'll give you a hint. The company's name starts with an A, and sounds like "Snapple".

HDTV UK: Companies to form Blu-ray promotion group

Originally Posted by aristotles

Look at this link:
Steering Committee Companies

*Gasp*
Sony is on the list. Does that mean they support HD-DVD?

Really? I certainly didn't notice and point that out earlier.

Regardless, you're looking for a press release on Apple joining the HD-DVD group. It doesn't exist, because Apple is already a member. Apple has said point blank they are supporting HD-DVD and you are ignoring it. I'm not the only person to notice this.

goMac · Apr 10, 2007, 02:25 AM

Originally Posted by aristotles

Check this page out:
http://www.hddvdprg.com/eng/about/member.html

It lists the members of the HD-DVD promotion group which is chaired by Toshiba. You will note that Microsoft is present on that list but Apple is notably absent.

The HD-DVD Promotion Group is not the same thing as the official group doing HD-DVD.

Originally Posted by aristotles

You can ignore that page if you wish, that HD-DVD is a subgroup if the older DVD forum, or that the list for the DVD forum member page is a lot longer than the HD-DVD group page. Go ahead and declare victory if you wish.

No, it's not a different group. You will note Apple is not a member of the Bluray Promotion Group either. Does that mean Apple doesn't plan on supporting Bluray?

Originally Posted by aristotles

You know, I'm almost tempted to post that picture of the special olympics kid but I would almost feel I would be insulting him to equate some of you with him.

I wouldn't be worried about people equating the picture with me.

jokell82 · Apr 10, 2007, 11:07 AM

And now, the reason I will be buying an HD-DVD player later this year and not a Blu-Ray player:
Heroes Breaks Ground With HD-DVD Release

aristotles · 11:34 PM

goMac, how old are you? You seem to have difficulty with reading comprehension? It seems like I'm either talking to a grade school pupil or someone with a learning disability.

Promotion is defined as:

• activity that supports or provides active encouragement for the furtherance of a cause, venture, or aim : disease prevention and health promotion.
• the publicization of a product, organization, or venture so as to increase sales or public awareness.
• a publicity campaign for a particular product, organization, or venture : the paper is reaping the rewards of a series of promotions.

Support in reference to computing (software) is defined as:

3 Computing (of a computer or operating system) allow the use or operation of (a program, language, or device) : the new versions do not support the graphical user interface standard.

Apple is providing support for the HD-DVD standard in their Final Copy Studio Pro product which is not a consumer product.

They are not in the active promotion of the HD-DVD format despite the technical support of the format in one of their content creation products.

What you do not seem to be understanding is that while the HD-DVD standard was developed by the DVD forum, not all members of the DVD forum were involved in the creation of the format or actively promoting the format. Sony is a steering committee member and obviously a DVD forum member as well. Despite all, of this they are not a promoter of the HD-DVD format.

As I have already pointed out, Apple is also a member of the DVD forum but they are not a member of any committees involving HD-DVD or the HD-DVD Promotion Group either as a board member, General member or associate member.

Apple is however, a member of the Blu-ray promotion group which is known as The Blu-ray Disc Association and is on the Board of directors.

Here is their homepage. Note the prominent Apple logo?

Even an immigrant from a non-English country should have no problem understanding the difference between support and promotion now. The former is done to serve customer needs while the latter to express what their preferred (favourite) format is. Apple is interested in furthering the Blu-ray format and its popularity.

Are we clear now? Are we all on the same page? I can understand if you prefer the HD-DVD format but facts are facts. Apple is on the Blu-ray board and prefers Blu-ray over HD-DVD even though they will support both formats in their software if their customers require it.

aristotles · Apr 10, 2007, 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

And now, the reason I will be buying an HD-DVD player later this year and not a Blu-Ray player:
Heroes Breaks Ground With HD-DVD Release

Other than editorial comments, I don't see any mention that it will not be released on blu-ray.

*edit*
It's also inaccurate as the Sopranos was release on both Blu-ray and HD-DVD.

hmurchison2001 · Apr 10, 2007, 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by aristotles

Apple is however, a member of the Blu-ray promotion group which is known as The Blu-ray Disc Association and is on the Board of directors.

Here is their homepage. Note the prominent Apple logo?

Even an immigrant from a non-English country should have no problem understanding the difference between support and promotion now. The former is done to serve customer needs while the latter to express what their preferred (favourite) format is. Apple is interested in furthering the Blu-ray format and its popularity.

Are we clear now? Are we all on the same page? I can understand if you prefer the HD-DVD format but facts are facts. Apple is on the Blu-ray board.

Would this mean to you that Apple has more of an affinity for Blu-ray than HD DVD?

aristotles · Apr 10, 2007, 11:31 PM

Originally Posted by hmurchison2001

Would this mean to you that Apple has more of an affinity for Blu-ray than HD DVD?

Yes. I apologize for not making that part clear. I'm tired of arguing with goMac.

hmurchison2001 · Apr 10, 2007, 11:34 PM

Cool thanks. I'm curious to see how the development tools have evolved this weekend in particular how complete the HD DVD and Blu-ray authoring support is.

aristotles · Apr 10, 2007, 11:55 PM

Originally Posted by hmurchison2001

Cool thanks. I'm curious to see how the development tools have evolved this weekend in particular how complete the HD DVD and Blu-ray authoring support is.

Final Cut Pro Studio will allow you to author HD-DVD projects but it does not come cheap and as of yet, there are no HD-DVD burners or burning software for OS X.

Toast Titanium 8 does support Blu-ray authoring and burning if you have of a several Blu-ray burners available for macs running OS X.

There are of course several products out there for authoring and burning both HD-DVD and Blu-ray discs for windows.

You will find that most HD-DVD titles that have come out are either completely VC-1 (Windows Media) or contain at least some VC-1 content while most if not all Blu-ray titles and content is encoded with MPEG-2 or AVC (H264).

goMac · Apr 11, 2007, 01:42 AM

Originally Posted by aristotles

Apple is however, a member of the Blu-ray promotion group which is known as The Blu-ray Disc Association and is on the Board of directors.

The Bluray Disc Association is not the same thing as the Bluray Promotion Group. In the same way that the HD-DVD Promotional Group is different than the HD DVD group.

Apple is a member of neither promotional group.

I'm not sure why you don't understand this. The Bluray Disc Association web site is not the same website of the Bluray promotional group.

Look, I've talk to people at Apple about this. You're not right about Bluray being Apple's favorite. Apple doesn't really care about HD burning until there is a dominant format, and they don't feel we are there yet.

aristotles · Apr 11, 2007, 03:51 AM

Originally Posted by goMac

The Bluray Disc Association is not the same thing as the Bluray Promotion Group. In the same way that the HD-DVD Promotional Group is different than the HD DVD group.

Apple is a member of neither promotional group.

I'm not sure why you don't understand this. The Bluray Disc Association web site is not the same website of the Bluray promotional group.

Look, I've talk to people at Apple about this. You're not right about Bluray being Apple's favorite. Apple doesn't really care about HD burning until there is a dominant format, and they don't feel we are there yet.

Where is the link to this separate Blu-ray promotional group? I cannot find any links. Put up, shut up or learn to read. The janitor does not count.

Membership Levels

Board of Directors
Companies participating in the Board of Directors are active participants of the format creation and key BDA activities. They are selected from the Contributors by election. The board sets an overall strategy and approves key issues. A board member can participate in all activities and attend all meetings. The Blu-ray Disc Founder companies will make up the initial Board of Directors.

Apple is a board member.

Contributor
Contributors are active participants of the format creation and other key BDA activities. They can be elected to become a member of the Board of Directors. A contributor can attend general meetings and seminars, and can participate in Technical Expert Groups (TEGs), regional Promotion Team activities, and most of the Compliance Committee (CC) activities. Membership requires execution of Contribution Agreement and must be approved by the Board of Directors.
Annual fee: $ 20,000
General member
General membership provides access to specific information from Committee discussions. A general member can attend general meetings and seminars. They can participate in specific Regional Promotion Team activities and specific CC activities.
Annual fee: $3,000

i have the feeling that I'm arguing with a peach fuzz teen. I have experience attending various board and committee meetings in the context of a multi-national company. Do you have any experience or first hand knowledge of how large business organizations work? I get the impression that you do not understand the significance of board membership or what function it serves. Either provide some evidence to backup your claims or come clean with everyone.

Here is the organizational structure of the Bluray Disc Association:

Structure of the Association

Promotion Committee (PC)
The promotion committee formulates a strategic approach to promote BD formats in various product categories. It creates and participates in events and activities that: promote BD formats, showcase BD products, educate and train key audiences on BD formats and technology, promote compatibility of BD products and create a community for General Members of the BDA.
Current Promotion Committee groups:
- Americas Promotion Team
- Europe Promotion Team
- Japan and Asia/Pacific Promotion Team

As you can see from that organizational chart, the promotional Committee is a direct report to the Board of Directors which includes Apple. That committee is broken down into regional subgroups. There is no other link because they are one in the same. The whole bloody site is designed to promote the format to not only the public but potential industry partners and content providers.

Will you or will you not come clean with us now and stop this charade? You have had your fun.

You are so close to going on my ignore list.

goMac · Apr 11, 2007, 04:00 AM

Look. I don't know what point you think you're making. I've talked to people at Apple who would know, and they're format neutral. Period.

aristotles · Apr 11, 2007, 04:05 AM

Welcome to the list. *Sigh*

I already said the same bloody thing several times in this thread. This key concept has gone *whoosh* over your head:
Software support != proponent of format

Nice knowing you, not!

goMac · Apr 11, 2007, 04:09 AM

Originally Posted by aristotles

Welcome to the list. *Sigh*

I already said the same bloody thing several times in this thread. This key concept has gone *whoosh* over your head:
Software support != proponent of format

Nice knowing you, not!

Nothing like a rabid Bluray fanatic...

jokell82 · Apr 11, 2007, 07:16 AM

Originally Posted by aristotles

Other than editorial comments, I don't see any mention that it will not be released on blu-ray.

*edit*
It's also inaccurate as the Sopranos was release on both Blu-ray and HD-DVD.

You do understand that Heroes is owned by NBC Universal, right? Do you know who Universal is?

aristotles · Apr 11, 2007, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

You do understand that Heroes is owned by NBC Universal, right? Do you know who Universal is?

What is Heroes again? Is it a TV series or something?

exca1ibur · Apr 11, 2007, 01:25 PM

Yeah. A very good one, too, but not a deal breaker for me as I'm sure it will be on DVD, as well.

aristotles · Apr 11, 2007, 01:29 PM

I've got to love being called a rabid fanatic by someone is who a rabid fanatic that does not even bother to read what other people have written and insists that DVD forum and the HD-DVD working group are one in the same because the latter is the subcommittee of the other. Listen pal, if you want to believe your imaginary friend/sales guy or whatever that you briefly talked to an an Apple store over industry pages displaying Apple logos and endorsements of Blu-ray, go ahead. I'm not making **** up like you are. I have linked to pages to support what I'm saying but I have yet to see you provide a single credible source on the internet to support your claims.

I took an honest look at both formats and obviously looked at HD-DVD first because HD-DVD player came out before Blu-ray. I played with players in the stores, asked a lot of questions and read reviews. One of the things I heard early on was the 720p or above resolutions with HD-DVD would require HDMI while the Blu-ray group had decided to not enforce HDCP protection at least with the intital set of titles. The HD-DVD group might have backed down from that stance later but it left me with a bad taste in my mouth as I did not want to be forced to buy a new LCD HDTV with HDMI.

It has been around a year since HD-DVD players first came out and since that time a number of revisions of Blu-ray players have also come out. I started looking at the format wars again and I decided to get a PS3 as a blu-ray player because they were affordable and it could also double as a media extender of sorts instead of an Apple TV. I also considered that I could play the occasional game on it as well.

I really don't see how I can be a fanatic given that I only waded into the HD disc realm about a week ago and before making that purchase, I was on the fence. I must say that I think the quality of the Blu-ray movies that I have are fantastic. No doubt, similar titles are equally visually stunning.

I've decided that Blu-ray is going to the winner simply based on the numbers and that the sales trends do not see HD-DVD accelerating while Blu-ray is. As a mac user who has a Sony HDV camera, I like the fact that I can buy a Blu-ray burner and software (Toast) right now and create my own High Definition disc and view it on my blu-ray player. There are simply no consumer level options for HD-DVD for me on OS X right now.

HD-DVD has players by Toshiba mainly and LG I guess? They have one major studio working exclusively with HD-DVD for the moment while everyone else is either exclusively Blu-ray or support both.

aristotles · Apr 11, 2007, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by exca1ibur

Yeah. A very good one, too, but not a deal breaker for me as I'm sure it will be on DVD, as well.

True enough. I would assume that for the time being, most TV series are going to come out of DVD as it is "good enough" for TV series for most people.

jokell82 · Apr 11, 2007, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by aristotles

I've got to love being called a rabid fanatic by someone is who a rabid fanatic that does not even bother to read what other people have written and insists that DVD forum and the HD-DVD working group are one in the same because the latter is the subcommittee of the other. Listen pal, if you want to believe your imaginary friend/sales guy or whatever that you briefly talked to an an Apple store over industry pages displaying Apple logos and endorsements of Blu-ray, go ahead. I'm not making **** up like you are. I have linked to pages to support what I'm saying but I have yet to see you provide a single credible source on the internet to support your claims.

And yet you completely disregard Apple's own press release that states that it *IS* a support of both formats. And yes, the HD-DVD working group may be a "sub group" of the DVD forum, but Apple has specifically stated that as a member of the DVD Forum they are a supporter of HD-DVD. Now why do you feel the need to contradict Apple's own announcements?

I personally couldn't give a damn who "wins" this "war" as it's all pretty trivial right now anyway. Hell, to break into the top 10 selling HD discs you only need to sell ~900 discs, so it's not like a bunch of people are buying right now anyway.

But feel free to take this way too seriously.

icruise · Apr 11, 2007, 02:02 PM

Guys, as I have said before, we cannot say with any confidence what Apple's real position is, so I think it's best to just put that on the back burner until we get some NEW evidence one way or the other ("new" being, oh, less than 2 years old). Please just let this part of the argument drop. You're just going in circles.

goMac · Apr 11, 2007, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by aristotles

I've got to love being called a rabid fanatic by someone is who a rabid fanatic that does not even bother to read what other people have written and insists that DVD forum and the HD-DVD working group are one in the same because the latter is the subcommittee of the other. Listen pal, if you want to believe your imaginary friend/sales guy or whatever that you briefly talked to an an Apple store over industry pages displaying Apple logos and endorsements of Blu-ray, go ahead. I'm not making **** up like you are. I have linked to pages to support what I'm saying but I have yet to see you provide a single credible source on the internet to support your claims.

Oh boy.

Actually I work for a major purchaser of Apple gear. Apple generally takes our feedback on Apple products, and tries to work our suggestions into future Apple products. In the late 90's before the iMac came out, they came around asking us for suggestions on it. (Side story: I know a guy who suggested to Apple that they should put the ports on the side of the iMac because he was tired of reaching around back of the machine. I have no idea if his feedback is why the iMac has ports on the side, but it's still kind of cool.)

Myself, I've sat in on a few meetings with Apple execs on future hardware, mostly portables and wireless. I'm not in management in my organization, but I've worked there for a long long time, and a few of the Apple people know me, so sometimes I'm lucky enough to tag along to these meetings. I never hear any concrete details, Apple never lets people know those sort of things. But generally the people we talk to are kept up to date on general company strategies. How else are they going to help people decide what Apple gear is best for their organizations?

Anyway, leaving out the sort of details that would put my job in danger, as lunch with one of our contacts at Apple late last year, the HD-DVD/Bluray war came up. I think I mentioned HD-DVD and Apple somehow. The Apple rep re-iterated the company line that they are platform neutral and supporting both HD-DVD and Bluray. Pretty much the same thing that Apple... you know... put in their press release.

So I do have a general idea of what I'm talking about. Could Apple have changed their Bluray/HD-DVD strategy in the last few months? Maybe, but I really doubt it. Nothing has really changed in the Bluray/HD-DVD wars. Neither format is a huge success.

I'm wondering how exactly it is that you know so much about Apple's Bluray strategy. Do you spend a lot of time in the Apple Store talking to employees yourself?

Eug · Apr 11, 2007, 03:29 PM

Seriously though, it seems that the reality is that so far (as in April 11, 2007), Apple is supporting neither format to any great extent. I'd expect that to change significantly (for the consumer) after Leopard is out, but Leopard isn't out yet.

mrtew · Apr 11, 2007, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

Seriously though, it seems that the reality is that so far (as in April 11, 2007), Apple is supporting neither format to any great extent. I'd expect that to change significantly (for the consumer) after Leopard is out, but Leopard isn't out yet.

They'll probably give us the choice of ordering computers with either bluray or HDDVD and there will be endless threads debating about which is better on every single apple-hardware board.

mrtew · Apr 11, 2007, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

I know a guy who suggested to Apple that they should put the ports on the side of the iMac because he was tired of reaching around back of the machine. I have no idea if his feedback is why the iMac has ports on the side, but it's still kind of cool.)

Uh, the iMacs have the ports on the back... http://www.apple.com/imac/gallery/qtvr.html ... you probably meant MacBook right?

icruise · Apr 11, 2007, 06:26 PM

Maybe he meant the CRT iMacs. Although with their rounded shape, I think it would be difficult to get the ports on the back even if they wanted to. Plus, there's no real reason to have the ports on the back if you don't have to have to connect a monitor cable.

goMac · Apr 11, 2007, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by mrtew

Uh, the iMacs have the ports on the back... Apple - iMac - Gallery ... you probably meant MacBook right?

Yeah, I meant the CRT iMacs. This would have been back in 96 or 97, 3 or 4 years before I started interning. As the story goes, Apple came by and asked what sorts of things we'd like on an entirely new design on Mac. One of our employees brought up then when working on peoples machines, it was always difficult to work with ports on the back, and he'd rather if they were on the side. Apple could have already come up with the idea, and I'm sure they had quite a few prototypes floating around, but I suppose it's at least cool to think that maybe you were the one who came up with the idea.

Eug · Apr 11, 2007, 09:08 PM

It's official.

“At launch, we offered two separate models of PLAYSTATION 3 to meet the diverse needs and interests of our PlayStation fan base,” explained Dave Karraker, senior director of corporate communications for SCEA. “Initial retail demand in North America was upwards of ninety percent in favor of the 60GB sku, so we manufactured and shipped-in accordingly.”

“Due to the overwhelming demand for the 60GB model from both retailers and consumers, we have ceased offering the 20GB model here in North America,” Karraker confirmed.

aristotles · Apr 11, 2007, 10:37 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

And yet you completely disregard Apple's own press release that states that it *IS* a support of both formats. And yes, the HD-DVD working group may be a "sub group" of the DVD forum, but Apple has specifically stated that as a member of the DVD Forum they are a supporter of HD-DVD. Now why do you feel the need to contradict Apple's own announcements?

I personally couldn't give a damn who "wins" this "war" as it's all pretty trivial right now anyway. Hell, to break into the top 10 selling HD discs you only need to sell ~900 discs, so it's not like a bunch of people are buying right now anyway.

But feel free to take this way too seriously.

Please go back and reread the entire thread. Then tell me I'm not reading. You just parroting what I have already said several times in this thread. That is my final answer.

Do you know what this reminds me of? It reminds me of political threads where left wing people parrot what their supposed opposition has said or already agreed to while making it seem that they are still at odds.

Are you arguing with me about something or are you simply arguing with me for the sake of arguing? Please point out where we are in disagreement on other than the fact that you seem to disagree with the dictionary on the definition of promotion and being a proponent of versus supporting a format through software. Apple provides windows drivers in the form of Bootcamp yet no sane person would say that Apple is a supporter (in the emotional sense) or a proponent of windows.

Give it a rest already and go find you arguing jollies in the political forum.

Kevin Moon · Apr 11, 2007, 10:39 PM

I think laserdisc will make a comeback

aristotles · Apr 11, 2007, 10:40 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

It's official.

“At launch, we offered two separate models of PLAYSTATION 3 to meet the diverse needs and interests of our PlayStation fan base,” explained Dave Karraker, senior director of corporate communications for SCEA. “Initial retail demand in North America was upwards of ninety percent in favor of the 60GB sku, so we manufactured and shipped-in accordingly.”

“Due to the overwhelming demand for the 60GB model from both retailers and consumers, we have ceased offering the 20GB model here in North America,” Karraker confirmed.

What's official? That bluray has won?

The 20 GB version also lacked the Media card reader ports and WiFi connectivity. I have yet to use the media card slots but I have my PS3 connected to the network wirelessly.

jokell82 · Apr 11, 2007, 10:46 PM

Originally Posted by aristotles

Please go back and reread the entire thread. Then tell me I'm not reading. You just parroting what I have already said several times in this thread. That is my final answer.

I actually did go back and read the last few pages of this thread, and all you've done is get high and mighty over consumer support and how Apple is supporting BluRay more because they're in the promotions group. Then you ignore a bunch of other posts that try to offer any alternative opinions.

But whatever. I'm done with this crap.

goMac · Apr 11, 2007, 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by aristotles

What's official? That bluray has won?

The 20 GB version also lacked the Media card reader ports and WiFi connectivity. I have yet to use the media card slots but I have my PS3 connected to the network wirelessly.

That's not the point. The point is that it's one less cheap Bluray player. It's also not as competitive with the XBox 360 now as a gaming system plus Hi Def player.

jokell82 · Apr 11, 2007, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

That's not the point. The point is that it's one less cheap Bluray player. It's also not as competitive with the XBox 360 now as a gaming system plus Hi Def player.

It's really about the same, Premium + HD Player is $599, same price as a PS3.

What gives the 360 the edge in my opinion is the option to use a universal remote with it. No IR port on the PS3 means I wont be using one as an HD player anytime soon.

aristotles · Apr 11, 2007, 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

Oh boy.

Actually I work for a major purchaser of Apple gear. Apple generally takes our feedback on Apple products, and tries to work our suggestions into future Apple products. In the late 90's before the iMac came out, they came around asking us for suggestions on it. (Side story: I know a guy who suggested to Apple that they should put the ports on the side of the iMac because he was tired of reaching around back of the machine. I have no idea if his feedback is why the iMac has ports on the side, but it's still kind of cool.)

Myself, I've sat in on a few meetings with Apple execs on future hardware, mostly portables and wireless. I'm not in management in my organization, but I've worked there for a long long time, and a few of the Apple people know me, so sometimes I'm lucky enough to tag along to these meetings. I never hear any concrete details, Apple never lets people know those sort of things. But generally the people we talk to are kept up to date on general company strategies. How else are they going to help people decide what Apple gear is best for their organizations?

Anyway, leaving out the sort of details that would put my job in danger, as lunch with one of our contacts at Apple late last year, the HD-DVD/Bluray war came up. I think I mentioned HD-DVD and Apple somehow. The Apple rep re-iterated the company line that they are platform neutral and supporting both HD-DVD and Bluray. Pretty much the same thing that Apple... you know... put in their press release.

So I do have a general idea of what I'm talking about. Could Apple have changed their Bluray/HD-DVD strategy in the last few months? Maybe, but I really doubt it. Nothing has really changed in the Bluray/HD-DVD wars. Neither format is a huge success.

I'm wondering how exactly it is that you know so much about Apple's Bluray strategy. Do you spend a lot of time in the Apple Store talking to employees yourself?

You do realize that whoever you were in contact with would say that they would support both formats to cover their ass incase they were internally supporting one format but the other format (HD-DVD) won? What you heard is the standard non-commital corporate bullshit companies like Apple give to people asking about unannounced products or upgrades.

Joining an industry board counts a hell of a lot more than what some random sales associate at Apple told you. I cannot count how many times we have heard rumours based on what some executive heard from a Sales contact within Apple told them which turned out to be completely or partially wrong.

For the millionth time, I fully, completely acknowledge that Apple will continue to support HD-DVD authoring at the very least in their pro-level apps. I would venture to guess that Final Cut Pro will support authoring both formats at a minimum with the next update. Given that there are zero HD-DVD burners of macs as far as I can tell and several third-party burners for macs already, I think it is safe to assume that FCP Studio will support Blu-ray burning.

For the millionth time, I am saying that Apple is a proponent of the Blu-ray format, even so they are prepared to support both formats in their pro-level apps. Given that supporting both formats may be cost prohibitive for consumer level apps like iDVD, I believe they will sooner support Blu-ray authoring and burning before they support HD-DVD which has zero burner/driver support on OS X. Installing Toast provides integrated Blu-ray burning support through drag and drop via the finder.

Why is is that native English speakers seem to have the poorest grasp of reading comprehension of their native language? It completely boggles the mind and it makes me cry to see how low the standards of the American public education system have fallen.

Good luck burning HD-DVD with that non-existant drive of yours.

Do us all a favour and actually look through that Bluray Disc association website and read what it is all about. I gave you the common courtesy of reading through every page you linked to including looking through the rest of the site to gain a proper context and I would ask you to do the same. Show some intellectual honestly for crying out loud.

aristotles · Apr 11, 2007, 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

Seriously though, it seems that the reality is that so far (as in April 11, 2007), Apple is supporting neither format to any great extent. I'd expect that to change significantly (for the consumer) after Leopard is out, but Leopard isn't out yet.

I'm curious, who was that directed at? I'm still waiting for something concrete from goMac as to why the dictionary is wrong and he is right. Saying that he works for a company that purchases Apple hardware and saying that he talking to a guy at Apple does not mean a whole lot. He has yet to provide any official documents to backup his position.

goMac does not seem to have a grasp of how the software industry works while I do work in the software industry and I am familiar with the language and terminology used within in the industry.

climber · Apr 11, 2007, 11:14 PM

aristotles, you may have a point that apple may internally prefer to see one format succeed over the other. And that may in fact be Blu-ray, but that does not mean that Apple is not smart enough to stay neutral at this time. While you have decided to support one format with your recent purchase, the free market has not.

There is no credible information that indicates Apple could not have a consumer/prosumer software for either format.

aristotles · Apr 11, 2007, 11:21 PM

I don't care anymore.

Buy whatever format you like after doing research on the benefits of each one. Google it. No doubt HD-DVD fanboys like goMac will disagree with me even on this.

I'm out of here.

climber · Apr 11, 2007, 11:46 PM

If you don't care anymore than why post? I for one will not buy anything until things are more settled in the market. I would prefer if it was Sony instead of the MS option, but ultimately I do not care either way.

Edit to add: And that special olympics pic is more offensive that any Nappy headed hoe comment I have heard in the last week.

goMac · Apr 11, 2007, 11:56 PM

Originally Posted by aristotles

goMac does not seem to have a grasp of how the software industry works while I do work in the software industry and I am familiar with the language and terminology used within in the industry.

See below. Apple is not so dumb that they're going to not support both formats. There are plenty of people with HD-DVD players they'll want to support, even on the consumer end.

As for your software industry quote... how long have you been in the software industry? Work in the Mac software industry much?

jokell82 · Apr 12, 2007, 07:21 AM

Originally Posted by climber

If you don't care anymore than why post? I for one will not buy anything until things are more settled in the market. I would prefer if it was Sony instead of the MS option, but ultimately I do not care either way.

Edit to add: And that special olympics pic is more offensive that any Nappy headed hoe comment I have heard in the last week.

Just so you know, HD-DVD is not the "MS option." Microsoft has said they will support whichever format becomes the standard, and they are not the driving force behind HD-DVD. That would be Toshiba and Universal.

icruise · Apr 12, 2007, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by jokell82

Just so you know, HD-DVD is not the "MS option." Microsoft has said they will support whichever format becomes the standard, and they are not the driving force behind HD-DVD. That would be Toshiba and Universal.

Of course they will support whichever format becomes the standard. So will pretty much everybody else. I imagine we'll eventually see Sony-branded HD-DVD players if HD-DVD wins. And while Microsoft may not be *the* driving force behind HD-DVD, they are *a* driving force behind it, and will stand to benefit if it wins.