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You are here: MacNN Forums > Hardware - Troubleshooting and Discussion > Mac Notebooks > How do I do XXXXX without Firewire?

How do I do XXXXX without Firewire?
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kennedy
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Oct 15, 2008, 03:01 PM
 
As someone who has upgraded to the best small Mac notebook every year or two, I am horrified that I might be stuck with my current MacBook for the indefinite future!

Perhaps someone can help me figure this out...

(1) How do I get the video from my expensive MiniDV camera into either iMovie or Final Cut on my MacBook without using Firewire?

(2) Many of the IT functions that I do to the 30 Macs at my business are done by putting the Mac into Target Disk Mode and connecting to my MacBook via Firewire. How do I do that now?

(3) How would I even upgrade from my old MacBook to the new MacBook? I can put my old MacBook in Target Disk Mode, but I can't connect to it with my new Firewire-less MacBook!

(4) How would I access all the photos and old movies that I have on about half a dozen old Firewire drives?

(5) How would I access the 20 or so Firewire drives that I use to backup the Macs at my business?

Does Apple have solutions for all the things we use Firewire for?

I've been talking people into Macs for years... but now I'll be talking them out of buying MacBooks because I am hoping MacBook sales drop like a rock so that they'll re-think this Firewire decision before the next MacBook.
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CharlesS
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Oct 15, 2008, 03:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by kennedy View Post
(1) How do I get the video from my expensive MiniDV camera into either iMovie or Final Cut on my MacBook without using Firewire?
You don't.

(2) Many of the IT functions that I do to the 30 Macs at my business are done by putting the Mac into Target Disk Mode and connecting to my MacBook via Firewire. How do I do that now?
You don't.

(3) How would I even upgrade from my old MacBook to the new MacBook? I can put my old MacBook in Target Disk Mode, but I can't connect to it with my new Firewire-less MacBook!
External USB 2.0 hard drive, or over the network.

(4) How would I access all the photos and old movies that I have on about half a dozen old Firewire drives?
Buy a new enclosure that supports USB 2.0, take the drive out of the old enclosure, and put it into the new one.

(5) How would I access the 20 or so Firewire drives that I use to backup the Macs at my business?
See above.

Does Apple have solutions for all the things we use Firewire for?
No.

I've been talking people into Macs for years... but now I'll be talking them out of buying MacBooks because I am hoping MacBook sales drop like a rock so that they'll re-think this Firewire decision before the next MacBook.
Just tell them to buy the old MacBook, which is still available for the time being. If that model humiliates the other models in terms of sales, that might send a message.

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analogika
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Oct 15, 2008, 03:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by kennedy View Post
(3) How would I even upgrade from my old MacBook to the new MacBook? I can put my old MacBook in Target Disk Mode, but I can't connect to it with my new Firewire-less MacBook!
Migration Assistant has worked via Airport or Ethernet for a while now, and Gigabit Ethernet is actually quite a bit faster than the FW400 on your MacBook.

Everything else - yes, it sucks that Apple have dropped it.
     
Chuckit
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Oct 15, 2008, 04:16 PM
 
Some MiniDV cameras have USB outputs. I was just using one last night. Have you checked if yours does somewhere?
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GuyWithACamera
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Oct 15, 2008, 04:33 PM
 
What about those USB/Firewire combo hubs? I'm not sure how good they work. I have one but have never hooked it up. I doubt it'll work with migration assistant but analogika has given you a solution for that.
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analogika
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Oct 15, 2008, 04:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by GuyWithACamera View Post
What about those USB/Firewire combo hubs? I'm not sure how good they work. I have one but have never hooked it up. I doubt it'll work with migration assistant but analogika has given you a solution for that.
The Firewire/USB combo hubs ALL require both USB and Firewire connections to the computer.

There is no real way to convert Firewire to USB.

(Well, actually, there are a very small handful of *seriously* weird boxes that allow you to hook up a DV cam to a USB port, but those will work only for DV (according to the product descriptions), and I wouldn't trust those with the data on a blank piece of paper.)
     
Scooterboy
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Oct 15, 2008, 05:46 PM
 
If you need FireWire on your Mac, don't buy a Mac that doesn't have it.

I guess Apple has upgraded you to Pro but they forgot to send you a card.
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mitchell_pgh
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Oct 15, 2008, 05:49 PM
 
Was I disappointed to hear that Apple dropped the Firewire port... sure. That being said, I haven't used mine in a very long time. I have an older video camera that will be retired (it actually broke a while back, but this is the final nail).

The sad truth is, firewire (while a superior technology) just didn't take off the way USB and USB2 have. There are millions of cameras out there that are firewire only... but like with the floppy, the Mac moves on.

Also, Apple created the void... some third party will fill it. I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't see a Firewire to USB2 option within the next few weeks.
     
Urkel
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Oct 15, 2008, 05:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh View Post
Also, Apple created the void... some third party will fill it. I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't see a Firewire to USB2 option within the next few weeks.
Yeah. Remember how Apple didn't offer Magsafe car adapters and third parties swooped in to the rescue and... oh yeah. Nobody ever rescued us with a Magsafe Lighter Adapter. How many years have we been waiting again?
     
Enigmatic
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Oct 15, 2008, 05:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Some MiniDV cameras have USB outputs. I was just using one last night. Have you checked if yours does somewhere?
I'm pretty sure the usb is just for the still mode function of the minidv camera, alot of them can take lower megapixel jpegs as well as video, the usb is just to transfer those. That's how it is on my camera.
     
mitchell_pgh
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Oct 15, 2008, 06:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Urkel View Post
Yeah. Remember how Apple didn't offer Magsafe car adapters and third parties swooped in to the rescue and... oh yeah. Nobody ever rescued us with a Magsafe Lighter Adapter. How many years have we been waiting again?
Oh, you mean like this?
http://mikegyver.com/IdeasnProducts/...afe/index.html

Sure, it's expensive... but there is an option available via 3rd party.
     
Scooterboy
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Oct 15, 2008, 06:06 PM
 
Most DV camcorders use FireWire. So if your camcorder uses FireWire, it's probably a good idea to buy a computer that has FireWire. There are many affordable laptop computers that feature FireWire, or IEEE 1392, or iLink, as it's often called in the PC world. So many PC's ship with FireWire specifically to cater to buyers who own these camcorders.
Dropping FireWire from the new MacBook is clearly an attempt to upsell you to the MacBook Pro, but I'd downbuy to the older style MacBook if I were on a budget, or not buy anything if your MacBook is still working well.
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alex_kac
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Oct 15, 2008, 06:23 PM
 
For me at least, the new MacBook is *almost* perfect. Lack of FW is a bit annoying, but I thankfully have my Mac Pro for all my video work.
     
Chuckit
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Oct 15, 2008, 06:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by Enigmatic View Post
I'm pretty sure the usb is just for the still mode function of the minidv camera, alot of them can take lower megapixel jpegs as well as video, the usb is just to transfer those. That's how it is on my camera.
I'm talking about for transferring video. "iLINK" or whatever they call Firewire is more common, but I've run across several that support USB, and two of the first three results for "camcorder" I clicked on Amazon seem to support it.
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Eug
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Oct 15, 2008, 07:12 PM
 
I'm not sure about today, but up until recently all the miniDV camcorders used only FireWire to transfer video. Many have USB, but that's only for still pictures.

The camcorders that use USB to transfer video usually uses some sort of compressed video format like AVCHD or MPEG2 DVD.

Ironically, iMovie is best suited for miniDV, but I bet that changes to a large extent with iMovie '09 in January.

BTW, the MPEG2 camcorders I've used have sucked compared to miniDV. Way too many compression artifacts. I can't comment on AVCHD in camcorders because I've never used one of those.

Originally Posted by Scooterboy View Post
Dropping FireWire from the new MacBook is clearly an attempt to upsell you to the MacBook Pro, but I'd downbuy to the older style MacBook if I were on a budget, or not buy anything if your MacBook is still working well.
Those latter two options were exactly what I was considering. I considered just continuing to use my G4 iBook, but it's really too damn slow. So, I "downbought" and got the older MacBook for cheap. Not only is the unit itself much cheaper, but the gobs of RAM I bought for it is much, much cheaper too. I'm saving almost $100 on memory alone.
( Last edited by Eug; Oct 15, 2008 at 07:21 PM. )
     
mduell
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Oct 15, 2008, 11:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by kennedy View Post
(1) How do I get the video from my expensive MiniDV camera into either iMovie or Final Cut on my MacBook without using Firewire?

(2) Many of the IT functions that I do to the 30 Macs at my business are done by putting the Mac into Target Disk Mode and connecting to my MacBook via Firewire. How do I do that now?

(3) How would I even upgrade from my old MacBook to the new MacBook? I can put my old MacBook in Target Disk Mode, but I can't connect to it with my new Firewire-less MacBook!

(4) How would I access all the photos and old movies that I have on about half a dozen old Firewire drives?

(5) How would I access the 20 or so Firewire drives that I use to backup the Macs at my business?
1. Using the Mac you already have with Firewire. Why not upgrade your camcorder when you upgrade your Mac?

2. Via ethernet or USB.

3. Via ethernet.

4. Buy enclosures with USB... not sure why you haven't been buying enclosures with USB/FW all along, as they don't command much of a price premium (in fact they're often cheaper due to the higher volumes).

5. See 4.

Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Some MiniDV cameras have USB outputs. I was just using one last night. Have you checked if yours does somewhere?
If it's a DV camera, the USB port is usually for stills only. Why anyone bothers with the hassle of DV tape is another question...

Originally Posted by GuyWithACamera View Post
What about those USB/Firewire combo hubs? I'm not sure how good they work. I have one but have never hooked it up. I doubt it'll work with migration assistant but analogika has given you a solution for that.
They're two different hubs in the same enclosure. There's no cross-connect.

Originally Posted by Eug View Post
The camcorders that use USB to transfer video usually uses some sort of compressed video format like AVCHD or MPEG2 DVD.
What are you trying to imply here? miniDV also uses compression.

Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Ironically, iMovie is best suited for miniDV, but I bet that changes to a large extent with iMovie '09 in January.
AVCHD works great with iMovie; the downside is that you have to convert to DV, but it's still faster than waiting for a realtime DV import over Firewire.

Originally Posted by Eug View Post
BTW, the MPEG2 camcorders I've used have sucked compared to miniDV. Way too many compression artifacts. I can't comment on AVCHD in camcorders because I've never used one of those.
Of course they do; MPEG2 was a terrible choice for HDV. Anyone with a clue is using AVCHD.
     
Wayland
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Oct 16, 2008, 01:41 PM
 
I just noticed iMovie'08 supports camcorder import by usb2. This is news to me, coming from iMovie'05 that doesn't support usb2 at all. To me, firewire or usb2 is no big deal now. I would prefer firewire, but I don't lose massive functionality from the restriction. Maybe I will finally upgrade from my ibook g4 1.33 ghz. Well maybe after the big bugs are worked out of the current macbooks.

Here is a link about imove 08.
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1096
     
l008com
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Oct 17, 2008, 05:06 PM
 
I so mac repair for a living, and Firewire Target Disk Mode is the foundation of mac repair. I have a 1st gen macbook that I was really hopeing to replace with aluminum. No firewire is simply not an option for me. So I'm probably going to go with one of the refurbs, which are 2.4 ghz... the "new" white macbooks are 2.1 GHz. I really hope apple brings back the firewire. And when I'm doing work on someone else firewireless-macbook, I'll have to remove the hard drive and hook it up to my computer via a firewire/sata bridge. I'm so crazy, I even think apple should add a 4 pin connector to the MacBook Air. And at LEAST a firewire 800 port to the macbook. I was actually hoping to get the dual ports like the MacBook Pro. It would be so handy to have two ports. Ugh.
     
ibook_steve
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Oct 17, 2008, 08:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by l008com View Post
I so mac repair for a living, and Firewire Target Disk Mode is the foundation of mac repair. I have a 1st gen macbook that I was really hopeing to replace with aluminum. No firewire is simply not an option for me. So I'm probably going to go with one of the refurbs, which are 2.4 ghz... the "new" white macbooks are 2.1 GHz. I really hope apple brings back the firewire. And when I'm doing work on someone else firewireless-macbook, I'll have to remove the hard drive and hook it up to my computer via a firewire/sata bridge. I'm so crazy, I even think apple should add a 4 pin connector to the MacBook Air. And at LEAST a firewire 800 port to the macbook. I was actually hoping to get the dual ports like the MacBook Pro. It would be so handy to have two ports. Ugh.
If it's so important to your job, why don't you just get an MBP (besides the extra cost, of course)?

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l008com
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Oct 17, 2008, 08:52 PM
 
Haha well if it wasn't for the extra cost, I'd buy 8 MacBook Pro's, all 17" too (that is once they get updated to the new form factor).
     
The OSX Guy
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Oct 17, 2008, 11:03 PM
 
THis is def a major disapointment. I handle IT for a school district. I live and die with my firewire drive. I do use netboot from my server, but still, nothing like having access to my desktop on any of our computers. Plus when I need a rebuild very quickly..noting beats it. Major letdown from apple.
     
snackhound
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Oct 18, 2008, 04:23 AM
 
Well i wont be upgrading to a new MB any time soon as all my pro audio equipment is firewire, found this link on another forum.

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/MB1394/petition.html
     
analogika
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Oct 18, 2008, 04:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by ibook_steve View Post
If it's so important to your job, why don't you just get an MBP (besides the extra cost, of course)?
That's what most of us will end up doing, but you know? It's NICE only carrying around a 13" machine, if you have it with you all the time.
     
l008com
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Oct 18, 2008, 07:47 AM
 
Someone should make a facebook group too :-)
     
bballe336
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Oct 18, 2008, 10:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Some MiniDV cameras have USB outputs. I was just using one last night. Have you checked if yours does somewhere?
Even if your miniDV or HDV camera supports capturing footage over USB2.0 you will end up with some terrible looking footage with lots of glitches and dropped frames. USB2.0 simply isn't able to maintain a high enough steady transfer rate to capture DV footage.
     
analogika
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Oct 18, 2008, 10:56 AM
 
I just read that DV only takes about 100 Mbit.

But even in isochronous mode, USB does not guarantee delivery.
     
Eug
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Oct 18, 2008, 11:26 AM
 
Having USB on an DV camera means nothing. For example, Canon's high-def DV cameras have USB, but you can't actually transfer ANY video over USB, because it's not supported. FW is required. And yes, these are current camcorders, on sale today.
     
Will C
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Oct 18, 2008, 12:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogika View Post
I just read that DV only takes about 100 Mbit.
Mini DV (Standard def) is 25MBit/s - though I am not sure how much BW it gets allocated in FW.
     
AKcrab
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Oct 18, 2008, 05:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Canon's high-def DV cameras have USB, but you can't actually transfer ANY video over USB, because it's not supported. FW is required. And yes, these are current camcorders, on sale today.
Are you talking about the consumer cams or the professional cams? All the consumer cams are shipping with *only* a USB cable, and here's what apple says about it:
Note: Some iMovie ’08 compatible devices have both a USB and FireWire port. These camcorders must only be connected using the USB port.
All of Canons current video cameras (consumer) are listed as compatible.
     
Eug
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Oct 18, 2008, 08:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by AKcrab View Post
Are you talking about the consumer cams or the professional cams? All the consumer cams are shipping with *only* a USB cable, and here's what apple says about it:

All of Canons current video cameras (consumer) are listed as compatible.
I don't know what qualifies as a "consumer" video camera, but the Canon HV30 for instance requires FireWire for video transfer. The HV30 is definitely not a pro camera. That camera goes for $699 at Amazon.com. And yes, that camera comes with a USB port... which cannot be used for video transfer.

Stupidly, that camera does not come with a Firewire cable in the box, but it does come with a USB cable. I suspect that's where part of the confusion comes from.

P.S. Apple actually sells that video camera at the Apple Store too.
( Last edited by Eug; Oct 18, 2008 at 08:44 PM. )
     
goMac
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Oct 18, 2008, 08:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by The OSX Guy View Post
THis is def a major disapointment. I handle IT for a school district. I live and die with my firewire drive. I do use netboot from my server, but still, nothing like having access to my desktop on any of our computers. Plus when I need a rebuild very quickly..noting beats it. Major letdown from apple.
I worked for a school district as well, but we used firmware passwords, so FDM was always kind of a wash.

Honestly, I'd prefer popping out the drive on Intels that have firmware passwords.
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mduell
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Oct 18, 2008, 10:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by bballe336 View Post
Even if your miniDV or HDV camera supports capturing footage over USB2.0 you will end up with some terrible looking footage with lots of glitches and dropped frames. USB2.0 simply isn't able to maintain a high enough steady transfer rate to capture DV footage.
DV/HDV only requires about 30Mbps; USB2 offers 192Mbps in isochronous mode.

Originally Posted by analogika View Post
I just read that DV only takes about 100 Mbit.
DVCPROHD does, but AFAIK cameras that support that cost more than a nicely equipped MacBook Pro.
     
analogika
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Oct 19, 2008, 04:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
DV/HDV only requires about 30Mbps; USB2 offers 192Mbps in isochronous mode.
With no packet recovery or error detection, which makes the protocol, which is still completely CPU-dependent, pretty much useless.
     
   
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