[typoon]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200....ap/index.html

NEW YORK (AP) -- The NHL canceled what little was left of the season Wednesday after a series of last-minute offers were rejected on the final day of negotiations.

[Eug Wanker]

I'm glad they FINALLY put it out of its misery.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Prediction:

NHL is unable to recover from this like baseball did. It was already losing popularity.

Soccer and the MLS will fill the void in it's wake. The popularity of Soccer has been increaasing since the decent showing at the last World Cup.

MLS = Wired
NHL = Tired

[nredman]

sucks for hockey fans but i could really care less since i dont like hockey

[malvolio]

Gary Bettman will go down in history as the only man to single-handedly kill a (formerly) major sports league.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Thank god. These overpaid idiots deserve to go down.

[Sarc]

that's sad ... I find that watching hockey is much more entertaining than baseball. Faster, more violent, shorter games ... what else can you ask !

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally posted by Sarc:
that's sad ... I find that watching hockey is much more entertaining than baseball. Faster, more violent, shorter games ... what else can you ask !

Players that are appreciative of the millions they get paid and don't **** there fans over fighting over more money.

[OldManMac]

How about owners who are appreciative of the fans they get, and don't **** them over money?

There's plenty of blame to pass around on both sides here, and that's part of the problem; both sides were pointing fingers and accusing the other of greed, when neither could see the forest for the trees. Will this kill the NHL? I don't know, but it's one of the few sports, other than the Tour DeFrance, that I watch.

[cpt kangarooski]

In light of the recent victories of the Sox and the Pats, and the inherent superiority of Boston, I'm prepared to count this as the Bruins winning the Stanley Cup. Now, on to the inevitable NBA championship for the Celtics!

[typoon]

This whole thing seemed to stem mainly from a salary cap. I'm one who doesnt' think the salary cap is a good idea. It think it should be done away with totally in EVERY sport. Why should owners of a team be told how much they can spend on there team? If an owner is WILLING to pay someone 100 million over however many years he should be allowed to.

Why should an owner be made to only spend so much to put a product on the field. If owner A wants to spend 100 million to put a team on the field he should be allowed to. If Owner B decides he only wants to spend 30 million on a team then he should be allowed to and shouldn't be complaining about the disparity in payrolls. I like the luxury tax scheme that baseball has in place. It seems to be a good thing. If owners of smaller teams are now getting money which they SHOULD put back into their teams and don't they shouldn't complain about the owner who do and are willing to spend the money to put a good team on the field.

[Phat Bastard]

Call me stupid, but here's how I think everything can be rectified.

First, let me explain the situation the NHL is in with a simple flowchart.

too many teams -> too many mediocre players -> on-ice product is too boring -> few fans, little corporate support, no US national TV deal -> owners' bottom line suffers -> push for a salary cap -> lockout -> season cancelled.

It follows that the best way to break this cycle is CONTRACTION. Get rid of the worst markets in the US (specifically the Atlanta Thrashers, Carolina Hurricanes, Florida Panthers, Nashville Predators, and others) and you get rid of a number of mediocre players.

The best players on these teams get redistributed in a contraction draft, and each team drops 2 or 3 of their worst players in the process.

The on-ice product should improve (along with some major rule changes), which could lead to an increased fanbase and a national TV contract in the US. THEN, and only when there is more money in the system, you negotiate a salary cap in the range of $50 million/team like the NHLPA proposed.

In the meantime, the NHL should impose a $40 million/team salary cap. If the team can't afford it, then they can join the list of "bad markets" that will contract.

There are too many crappy players and crappy teams for the NHLPA to have any leverage at this time whatsoever.

[ironknee]

sucks big time

[JHromadka]

Originally posted by typoon:
This whole thing seemed to stem mainly from a salary cap. I'm one who doesnt' think the salary cap is a good idea. It think it should be done away with totally in EVERY sport. Why should owners of a team be told how much they can spend on there team? If an owner is WILLING to pay someone 100 million over however many years he should be allowed to.

Because then you'd have seasons like '97 when the Marlins bought the WS by loading up on high-$$$ players then dumping after the season was over. It must really suck to be a Pirates or Milwaukee fan. Not every team can afford the salaries that NY pays.

/Astros fan

[passmaster16]

Originally posted by JHromadka:
Because then you'd have seasons like '97 when the Marlins bought the WS by loading up on high-$$$ players then dumping after the season was over. It must really suck to be a Pirates or Milwaukee fan. Not every team can afford the salaries that NY pays.

/Astros fan

We know that feeling. Pittsburgh will never have a good ball team because by the time we develop players, they need to be moved to other teams due to $. NHL is not the NFL or NBA. It needs a cap because the league revenues are too low. People don't want to watch uncompetitive leagues. Without a cap, the NHL will be like MLB with teams like NY and Detroit paying out as much cash as they can for the few good players that are left.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally posted by JHromadka:
Because then you'd have seasons like '97 when the Marlins bought the WS by loading up on high-$$$ players then dumping after the season was over. It must really suck to be a Pirates or Milwaukee fan. Not every team can afford the salaries that NY pays.

/Astros fan

the marlins still earned it.

big diff between buying players and winning WS


the yanks haven't won in years. the mets tried to do it since forever and have not been sucessful. same for dodgers and atlanta and boston. Atl and Bos have only 1 each in the last decade or so to show for it.

[itai195]

Originally posted by typoon:
This whole thing seemed to stem mainly from a salary cap. I'm one who doesnt' think the salary cap is a good idea. It think it should be done away with totally in EVERY sport. Why should owners of a team be told how much they can spend on there team? If an owner is WILLING to pay someone 100 million over however many years he should be allowed to.

Not to point out the obvious, but it's the owners who wanted a hard salary cap in the NHL, not the players.

As KarlG said, there's plenty of blame to go around here. The players are definitely very overpaid. But the owners spent years handing out those inflated contracts, like helpless children. The NHL stood by for years as the quality of the game steadily decreased and the phoney economics of expansion/relocation wreaked havoc on the bottom line. They don't even have a decent TV deal. It's a league run by idiots. The owners are demanding a salary cap because, apparently, they just don't have any self-control.

In the end, the crux of the disagreement was that the players wanted a $49 million cap, and the owners wanted $42.5 million. Pathetic. At some point even they would have realized it's an inconsequential difference to argue over, but that won't happen thanks to the commissioner's artificial deadline.

[dreilly1]

Originally posted by malvolio:
Gary Bettman will go down in history as the only man to single-handedly kill a (formerly) major sports league.

That's funny, I was sure that would be Bud Selig....

As for the NHL, they should just hand the league over to Vince McMahon. Let's have an XHL, where they embed cameras in the puck and every team has to have a goon on the ice at all times.

And www.freestanley.com is encouraging people to write to the Stanley Cup trustees and ask them to find some worthy non-NHL teams to play for the Stanley Cup....

[sugar_coated]

Today is a sad day for hockey fans.

[far200]

It was done in september but today they final got the balls to say it......
now next year when the two sides come to an agreement we the fans should strike for better seat prices........

[malvolio]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
big diff between buying players and winning WS

the yanks haven't won in years.

Yeah, all of 4 and 1/2 years. And 4 WS championships in the past 10 years ain't too shabby.

[kcmac]

Nothing serious will happen till about midway into next season's strike. The players get paid for two years from stockpiles of money in the players union. (Correct me if I'm wrong).

The salary cap in the NFL is like $80M per team. The NHL was attempting a cap in the 40's. Is it just me or don't you think the NFL makes way more than 2 times that made in the NHL? Probably more like 10 x.

I love hockey but the owner's and the players have to be the dumbest business people on the planet. Thing is right now, the majority of the owner's are doing better (not losing money) by not having a season and the players are getting paid to not play.

Well, maybe they are not so dumb after all....
owners
players
fans (edited for you teenagers out there)

[TailsToo]

Originally posted by far200:
It was done in september but today they final got the balls to say it......
now next year when the two sides come to an agreement we the fans should strike for better seat prices........

I agree! In 1999, it cost almost $40 a seat for an upper deck seat to see the Florida Panthers... yeah, they sucked that year too! For most working people, that's way too much. I can only imagine what others pay in more popular hockey towns. (Two years ago, my 2nd row seat to see the Dallas Stars was $125 face.)

[Rev-O]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
Prediction:

NHL is unable to recover from this like baseball did. It was already losing popularity.

Soccer and the MLS will fill the void in it's wake. The popularity of Soccer has been increaasing since the decent showing at the last World Cup.

MLS = Wired
NHL = Tired

You could be right. But I hope not, because soccer is wretchedly boring. If I remember correctly, in a Clockwork Orange they used soccer footage to try and crush Alex de Large's spirit, and even then they had to prop his eyes open to make him watch it.

Horrid stuff, soccer.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
the marlins still earned it.

big diff between buying players and winning WS


the yanks haven't won in years. the mets tried to do it since forever and have not been sucessful. same for dodgers and atlanta and boston. Atl and Bos have only 1 each in the last decade or so to show for it.

As has been pointed out, that's an absolutely ridiculous statement that you obviously didn't put any brain power into. They may not ALWAYS win, because at the professional level you simply can't � everyone can have an off day, and if the other team is on you're history. However, every single year they are odds-on (or if not, close to) favourites to be World Series Champs.

The teams with the money will generally win, the largest percentage of the time. See the Detroit Red Wings, Colorado Avalanche, Dallas Stars, etc.

greg

[cjrivera]

Just heard that Bettman had 2 speeches for today. The 1 he gave announcing the end of the season. The other was (of course) to announce that a settlement had been agreed upon, but also, to announce a few rule changes to make it a higher scoring, "more exciting" game to bring back fans quicker.

Anyone have any ideas what these new rule changes would be?

[malvolio]

The only new rule I have heard about is reducing the size of the goalies's pads.

[ort888]

Salary caps are necassary because teams in big cities and teams in small cities opporate on different economic scales. A city like Edmonton can never compete with a city like New York because they simply cannot generate the revenue. If you want all of these teams to exist in the same league you need some way to level the playing field.

As for expansion causing the league to be boring, it is simply not true. Hockey is boring because the only way for small market teams to win is by playing a trap. If you can't afford a $70 million dollar payroll, you win however you can. It all comes back to the salary cap. Level the playing field and the game may open up.

As for those rules changes, there have been a lot floated around. Reduction in size of goalie equipment, fiddling with the placement of lines. no-touch icing, moving the goals back a few feet, and not allowing the goalie to play the puck behind the net.

[Randman]

I'm a hockey fan and I'm having trouble remembering who won the Stanley Cup last. Sad. The NHL should have kept prices low and catered to the Nascar crowd. Instead, it went upmarket and priced itself out of business.

[Athens]

im so depressed over it :'(

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally posted by ShortcutToMoncton:

1
As has been pointed out, that's an absolutely ridiculous statement that you obviously didn't put any brain power into.
2
They may not ALWAYS win, because at the professional level you simply can't � everyone can have an off day, and if the other team is on you're history.

1 - i live in NY. i pay extra for everything already! i pay more to watch my team play in the stands and on cable. i expect them to spend loot on players. i don't particularly give a rat anus about small market teams, the majority suck imo because of management. the oakland A's have no trouble winning every year. florida won 2 yrs ago without bloating payroll.

2 - you're contracdicting yourself. so the "other" teams do have a chance? On this point you are right though. any small market team can win. i've seen the angels do it before they started to bloat, boston, florida... THE YANKEES! in 96, 97, and 98... those teams were not outlandish.

[Agent69]

RIP Hockey.

[JHromadka]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
1 - i live in NY. i pay extra for everything already! i pay more to watch my team play in the stands and on cable. i expect them to spend loot on players. i don't particularly give a rat anus about small market teams, the majority suck imo because of management. the oakland A's have no trouble winning every year. florida won 2 yrs ago without bloating payroll.

2 - you're contracdicting yourself. so the "other" teams do have a chance? On this point you are right though. any small market team can win. i've seen the angels do it before they started to bloat, boston, florida... THE YANKEES! in 96, 97, and 98... those teams were not outlandish.

1. I'm glad you enjoy watching your team. I'm sorry you don't think about what's good for the game.

2. Florida definitely earned it a few years ago, but I stand by my statement saying they bought the WS the first time. Throwing money does not always work. See the Yankees lately, the Dodgers a few years ago, and the Mets this year. Look at this salary database and compare the teams. NYY spent 184M in 2004, almost 4x the Padres and twice as much as my beloved Astros. That's crazy.

See the old saying, "Money isn't everything, but it sure helps."

[typoon]

Originally posted by JHromadka:
1. I'm glad you enjoy watching your team. I'm sorry you don't think about what's good for the game.

2. Florida definitely earned it a few years ago, but I stand by my statement saying they bought the WS the first time. Throwing money does not always work. See the Yankees lately, the Dodgers a few years ago, and the Mets this year. Look at this salary database and compare the teams. NYY spent 184M in 2004, almost 4x the Padres and twice as much as my beloved Astros. That's crazy.

See the old saying, "Money isn't everything, but it sure helps."

You are right. But when teams like the Yankees and Mets and Red Sox pay HUGE amounts in luxury tax to field these teams and the money they pay gets distributed to the the other teams. It's not there fault if the money distrunbetd doesn't go back into the teams that get the distribution. When the other team owners Don't put money back into the team from the money they get from the payment from the luxury tax whose fault is that? It's not the big Market teams fault that the owners of the smaller market teams don't put money back into it.

Another example of a small market team doing well is the Minnesota Twins. They Don't have a high payroll I believe it's about 50-60 million. Which is still peanuts compared to what the Yankees, Mets and Red Sox payrolls are. The have been to the playoffs quite often in the past few years.

You talk about the 1997 Marlins, What about the 2003 Marlins (I believe that was the laast year they won it)? I think the only really big name player they had was Ivan Rodriquez.

If you want to talk about a team buying players to try and win we should talk about the Baltimore Orioles.

While money does help there are also factors that will also contribute. Smart personel being one. the Oakland A's are a good example of this. Same with the Minnesota Twins.

[malvolio]

Originally posted by Agent69:
RIP Hockey.

No, RIP the NHL.
If ESPN would broadcast a full slate of college hockey or Canadian junior league hockey, I would definitely be watching.

[wdlove]

Now they have plenty of time to prepare for next year.

The one's that are really being hurt are those that work at the arenas and restaurants.

[dreilly1]

My solution: Turn the "Salary Cap" into a "Salary Committment".

Every team MUST allocate the salary committment towards salaries, expressed as a percentage or revenue of the whole league, divided out to each team. Any team whose total payroll comes under the salary cap must give the balance to the players' union. This can still be connected with revenue-sharing among team owners to make sure that small-market teams can meet their salary committment, but players will get every cent os the committment level.

(Remember that baseball wouldn't be much fun at all if the Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, and Braves were the only teams in the league because everyone else went under. It takes two teams to play a sport, and competing teams are really partners in putting on a good show for the fans every night. So, revernue sharing among teams is still essential, because the Yankees want to bring more good teams in besides just the Red Sox.)

This literally puts every team on the same footing. There is no incentive for a small-market owner to field a lousy team, or to break up a team after a champoinship, because they won't be saving any money. It actually turns player salaries into a fixed cost, which is good for business. And it will keep players salaries under control, because a player who signs a big contract is literally decreasing the ability of the team to sign more players. However, the entire pool of players is guaranteed to get the entire pool of the salary committment divided among all of them.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally posted by JHromadka:
1. I'm glad you enjoy watching your team. I'm sorry you don't think about what's good for the game.

2. Florida definitely earned it a few years ago, but I stand by my statement saying they bought the WS the first time. Throwing money does not always work. See the Yankees lately, the Dodgers a few years ago, and the Mets this year. Look at this salary database and compare the teams. NYY spent 184M in 2004, almost 4x the Padres and twice as much as my beloved Astros. That's crazy.

See the old saying, "Money isn't everything, but it sure helps."

1. what is good for the game? cheap small market owners? fans in florida who don't come and watch the WS Champions during the regular season? hearing a pindrop in montreal the last few years? i think the solution is small market owners hire people who know what they are doing. like billy beane and others.

2. i agree with you. money is not the answer.

[ort888]

The salary cap they are trying to establish is does have a salary floor as well. You would have to have a payroll in a certain range, like between $28 million and $42 million.

[JHromadka]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
1. what is good for the game? cheap small market owners? fans in florida who don't come and watch the WS Champions during the regular season? hearing a pindrop in montreal the last few years? i think the solution is small market owners hire people who know what they are doing. like billy beane and others.

2. i agree with you. money is not the answer.

If you look at MLB over the past ten years, NYY and Atlanta have made it every season. At least the Yankees have good fans. I was so tempted to take a road trip to go see the Astros play Atlanta this past postseason when they were giving away tickets -- buy tix to one playoff game, get a ticket to the next game for free. Maybe Atlanta fans are tired of their team getting knocked out in the first round. I know Houston fans were getting tired of Atlanta!

The small market owners are "cheap" because they can't pull in the revenue from television, sponsorship, etc. that the teams in large markets do. That "luxury tax" is currently used for these teams to break even. NYY have their own cable network for cryin' out loud. That pulls in a lot of revenue for George & company.

What would happen to MLB if there was a hard $100M cap on annual salaries? Teams would have to get more creative in developing their players instead of just spreading $$$ around, and you would have a wider variety of teams entering the playoffs. Look how good the NFL has become. You have the truly strong teams like NE & Philly, but look at how many different teams have made the playoffs.

And don't get me started on FL fans. I was there a few years ago and was going to try to go to a game, and people didn't even know if the Marlins were in town or where they played!

[ReggieX]

Ticket prices in the bigger cities will NEVER come down for NHL teams: Toronto fans got reamed every year even before the move the ACC, which made the prices higher yet again. Hell, I was going to go full on and get HD cable, but there's no point anymore.

Rogers or TSN started showing Swedish Elite League hockey, and it's been fun to watch at times!

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally posted by JHromadka:

1
The small market owners are "cheap" because they can't pull in the revenue from television, sponsorship, etc. that the teams in large markets do.

2
That "luxury tax" is currently used for these teams to break even. NYY have their own cable network for cryin' out loud. That pulls in a lot of revenue for George & company.

3
What would happen to MLB if there was a hard $100M cap on annual salaries? Teams would have to get more creative in developing their players instead of just spreading $$$ around, and you would have a wider variety of teams entering the playoffs.

4
Look how good the NFL has become. You have the truly strong teams like NE & Philly, but look at how many different teams have made the playoffs.

5
And don't get me started on FL fans. I was there a few years ago and was going to try to go to a game, and people didn't even know if the Marlins were in town or where they played!

1 - they only need to work with around 50-60 million to field a competitive team. if they can' make profit, it's time for contraction.

2 - not all teams use it to break even. some use it as "money in the owner's pocket". see KC, see Florida and Montreal pre- 2001.

3 - you also get the NBA. teams stuck with bad players for years and ruining them financially until their contract expires. see Allan Houston and Grant Hill with their injuries.

4 - non-guaranteed contracts along with the cap allows them this. it's comparing apples and oranges though. the NFL is a different animal all together.

[ort888]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
1 - they only need to work with around 50-60 million to field a competitive team. if they can' make profit, it's time for contraction.

So you're suggesting the NHL should consist of about 8-10 teams? You're sugesting that every Canadian team except Toronto should be contracted? That sounds llike a marvelous idea. I'm sure it would go over really well.

[typoon]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
1 - they only need to work with around 50-60 million to field a competitive team. if they can' make profit, it's time for contraction.

2 - not all teams use it to break even. some use it as "money in the owner's pocket". see KC, see Florida and Montreal pre- 2001.

3 - you also get the NBA. teams stuck with bad players for years and ruining them financially until their contract expires. see Allan Houston and Grant Hill with their injuries.

4 - non-guaranteed contracts along with the cap allows them this. it's comparing apples and oranges though. the NFL is a different animal all together.

Actually I think you have a good idea. Especially in Baseball. Teams should be required to have a minimum payroll. I think 50-60 million is a good base.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally posted by ort888:
So you're suggesting the NHL should consist of about 8-10 teams? You're sugesting that every Canadian team except Toronto should be contracted? That sounds llike a marvelous idea. I'm sure it would go over really well.

i was talking about baseball...

hockey is another story. i think the NHL is over and done with. it will never reach it's highest popularity ever again and it should not consist of 8-10 teams. it should consist of 1 team. as in the US Hockey team competing every 4 years in the olympics.

forget about soccer. the rednecks down south are gonna make Nascar the fourth most popular sport. with tennis, soccer, and golf all probably going to push the NHL into 7-8-9 in the major sports category.

[far200]

Originally posted by cjrivera:
Just heard that Bettman had 2 speeches for today. The 1 he gave announcing the end of the season. The other was (of course) to announce that a settlement had been agreed upon, but also, to announce a few rule changes to make it a higher scoring, "more exciting" game to bring back fans quicker.

Anyone have any ideas what these new rule changes would be?

One rule I heard they were looking at was getting rid of the red line. that would mean no more two line pass rule........ This has been tried in the AHL I think or maybe the OHl i can't remember...... but This will get rid of the trap and open up play for the faster guys.

[ThinkInsane]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
Prediction:

NHL is unable to recover from this like baseball did. It was already losing popularity.

Soccer and the MLS will fill the void in it's wake. The popularity of Soccer has been increaasing since the decent showing at the last World Cup.

MLS = Wired
NHL = Tired

I don't know about that. If and when soccer gains the popularity in the US that it enjoys in the rest of the world, I think it will be a long time coming. We just had our first pro soccer team fold (after two seasons), even though they had a good first season and a strong showing in the playoffs in their second. Even though they were doing well for a new team, they just couldn't generate enough interest to get people into the stadium. This isn't the first time pro soccer has been tried in the US, and it doesn't seem like it's getting any closer to becoming successful.

As for hockey, I miss it, and I hope this doesn't flush the league down the toilet. Wouldn�t it be nice if the league and the players learn from this fiasco and actually take steps to fix the league?

[JHromadka]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
i was talking about baseball...

hockey is another story. i think the NHL is over and done with. it will never reach it's highest popularity ever again and it should not consist of 8-10 teams. it should consist of 1 team. as in the US Hockey team competing every 4 years in the olympics.

Um, I know there aren't as many teams up there as before, but surely you know that the NHL is still popular enough in Canada for them to have their own team?

Contraction may be a way, but I think the CN teams should keep theirs. Can AZ & FL really support hockey?

[ort888]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
i was talking about baseball...

hockey is another story. i think the NHL is over and done with. it will never reach it's highest popularity ever again and it should not consist of 8-10 teams. it should consist of 1 team. as in the US Hockey team competing every 4 years in the olympics.

forget about soccer. the rednecks down south are gonna make Nascar the fourth most popular sport. with tennis, soccer, and golf all probably going to push the NHL into 7-8-9 in the major sports category.

Oh, I get it now. You are clearly bonkers and not worth talking to about this subject. Thanks for clearing that up.

[dlefebvre]

It also sucks for everyone who was working during games and lost their jobs.