[placebo1969]

Explain this to me

snip:

Originally Posted by Above article

Muslim crowd burns two Pakistan churches

By ASIF SHAHZAD
ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER

LAHORE , Pakistan -- Hundreds of Muslims attacked and burned two churches in Pakistan on Saturday after reports that a Christian man had desecrated Islam's holy book. No one was injured in the blazes.

A school, student hostel and the home of a priest were also torched by the crowd of about 1,500 Muslims near the town of Sangla Hill, about 80 miles northeast of Lahore, said police official Ali Asghar Dogar.

The attacks were being investigated. About two dozen people had been arrested, Dogar said.

The fires came a day after a local Muslim resident accused a Christian of burning a one-room Islamic school along with copies of the Quran. Dogar said the allegations were apparently leveled by people who lost money while gambling with the Christian man on Friday, but police had detained him and were investigating.

Shahbaz Bhatti, head of the All Pakistan Minorities Alliance - which promotes the rights of minorities in mainly Muslim Pakistan, denied the charges and condemned the attacks on the Roman Catholic and Protestant churches.

"No Christian burned copies of the Quran," he told The Associated Press. "No Christian even can think of doing it. We have maximum regard and respect for the Quran and Islam's Prophet Muhammad."

Could someone explain this to me. Why is there so much anger? Why the hate? Looking at this from afar (literally and figuratively), I just don't understand.

[nonhuman]

"No Christian burned copies of the Quran," he told The Associated Press. "No Christian even can think of doing it. We have maximum regard and respect for the Quran and Islam's Prophet Muhammad."

Respect! To the XTREME!

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by nonhuman

Respect! To the XTREME!

Comment! One word CAPITALIZED!

For the nonhuman, the "non-opinion." I like it!

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Comment! One word CAPITALIZED!

For the nonhuman, the "non-opinion." I like it!

I just thought the phrasing of the quote was funny...

'Maximum regard and respect'? I mean really.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by nonhuman

I just thought the phrasing of the quote was funny...

'Maximum regard and respect'? I mean really.

I can imagine someone saying that with a straight face and a Pakistani accent...if he was scared for his life.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by placebo1969

Explain this to me

snip:


Could someone explain this to me. Why is there so much anger? Why the hate? Looking at this from afar (literally and figuratively), I just don't understand.

"No Christian burned copies of the Quran," he told The Associated Press. "No Christian even can think of doing it. We have maximum regard and respect for the Quran and Islam's Prophet Muhammad."

1st mistake:

"No Christian burned copies of the Quran"

None? Really? How can he be so sure? And what if the people who burned the churches were told they saw a Christian doing just that, or the equivalent?

A great example of generalization over ignorance; the truth is that it may very well happened.


2nd mistake:

"No Christian even can think of doing it"

Is that so? Well, I believe I read here some people thought about it. And what is a Christian anyway? Are they so pure as in "they never sin"? Like, they do not make mistakes, are not racists or criminals? Maybe the act is not very popular, but surly the thought has crossed a few minds...

3rd mistake:

"We have maximum regard and respect for the Quran and Islam's Prophet Muhammad."

nonhuman put it well; very weird sentence. Another generalization, again.

People tend to mix religion (the ideology) with the religious (believers) as if they were equivalent. People also tend to confuse the behavior of one as representative of the behavior of any and all sharing the belief of the first, and also as if that behavior is the ideal of the group that identifies itself to the faith shared in that group.

And then things start to escalate to no end and no one can figure how the whole thing started.

As for the exact reasons for that anger, I'd ask the people who burn those churches. I am willing to bet that half of them had no idea how they got to join a smaller group of people who told them their perception of the probable cause anf they all thought it was the right thing to do to seek vengeance for reasons of their own. If we were to interview them all individually, I would not be surprised to find that only a few had similar reasons for doing what they did.

[placebo1969]

Originally Posted by Pendergast

1st mistake:

"No Christian burned copies of the Quran"

None? Really? How can he be so sure? And what if the people who burned the churches were told they saw a Christian doing just that, or the equivalent?

A great example of generalization over ignorance; the truth is that it may very well happened.


2nd mistake:

"No Christian even can think of doing it"

Is that so? Well, I believe I read here some people thought about it. And what is a Christian anyway? Are they so pure as in "they never sin"? Like, they do not make mistakes, are not racists or criminals? Maybe the act is not very popular, but surly the thought has crossed a few minds...

3rd mistake:

"We have maximum regard and respect for the Quran and Islam's Prophet Muhammad."

nonhuman put it well; very weird sentence. Another generalization, again.

People tend to mix religion (the ideology) with the religious (believers) as if they were equivalent. People also tend to confuse the behavior of one as representative of the behavior of any and all sharing the belief of the first, and also as if that behavior is the ideal of the group that identifies itself to the faith shared in that group.

And then things start to escalate to no end and no one can figure how the whole thing started.

As for the exact reasons for that anger, I'd ask the people who burn those churches. I am willing to bet that half of them had no idea how they got to join a smaller group of people who told them their perception of the probable cause anf they all thought it was the right thing to do to seek vengeance for reasons of their own. If we were to interview them all individually, I would not be surprised to find that only a few had similar reasons for doing what they did.

So if a Christian burned a Quran, then they deserve their churches being burned down? I've said it many times before, I'll say it again: I saw guys in the prison (juvenile) using bible's for rolling papers to make cigarettes.

Where is the tolerance in Islam? I would never burn a Quran, but I've certainly seen a bible burned.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by placebo1969

So if a Christian burned a Quran, then they deserve their churches being burned down? I've said it many times before, I'll say it again: I saw guys in the prison (juvenile) using bible's for rolling papers to make cigarettes.

Where is the tolerance in Islam? I would never burn a Quran, but I've certainly seen a bible burned.

According to the story a Muslim school was also burned.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by placebo1969

So if a Christian burned a Quran, then they deserve their churches being burned down? I've said it many times before, I'll say it again: I saw guys in the prison (juvenile) using bible's for rolling papers to make cigarettes.

Where is the tolerance in Islam? I would never burn a Quran, but I've certainly seen a bible burned.

Can anyone truly believe an American living in Sangla Hill (Est. population 50,000) which is unlikely to have the cosmopolitan sophistication or religious tolerance (or police protection) that might be expected in a bustling city of Lahore, for example, and in a city like that, where he may be one of a very small number of Americans (and thus be the FIRST one suspected of such crimes as burning a building in a Muslim community) would actually burn a Quran???

I know many people have a low opinion of American intelligence, but, the young American posters on MacNN notwithstanding, MOST Americans do have a strong sense of self preservation. Burning a Quran would be tantamount to committing suicide. The American would HAVE to understand this.

Now, if the situation were REVERSED, yes, I could imagine a Pakistani Muslim in a US town of 50,000 or so being ABLE (though less likely) to commit those same deeds and not be in fear for his life. And, for burning a Bible the response would likely be the people would pray for him.

[Doofy]

Just another example of a certain religion demonstrating its tolerance for other religions existing on its turf through means of an invented slight. Nothing to see here (except Mojo's sig).

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by placebo1969

So if a Christian burned a Quran, then they deserve their churches being burned down?

huh?

I've said it many times before, I'll say it again: I saw guys in the prison (juvenile) using bible's for rolling papers to make cigarettes.

There you go!

Where is the tolerance in Islam? I would never burn a Quran, but I've certainly seen a bible burned.

Again, a good demonstration of my previous points.

[placebo1969]

Originally Posted by Pendergast

huh?

I'll say it again: If a Christian burns the Quran, do they deserve their church being burned down by Muslims who are pissed off?

Again, where is the tolerance? In the West, there have been pieces of art that involved a crucifix in a jar of urine and dung heaped on the Virgin Mary. I don't recall any major violence as a result.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by placebo1969

I'll say it again: If a Christian burns the Quran, do they deserve their church being burned down by Muslims who are pissed off?

Of course not.

Again, where is the tolerance? In the West, there have been pieces of art that involved a crucifix in a jar of urine and dung heaped on the Virgin Mary. I don't recall any major violence as a result.

You don't recall? Were you there? You are comparing 2 events in totally different contexts. One is in Pakistan, a country that had to go under several years of dictature, with a very controversial birth, a country that is near explosion on a daily basis with confrontations with India. The West? Where in the West? How big is that "West" you are talking about? Have you read all the newspapers of that "West" to make a sound assessment of the situation?

Which reminds me, what was the reaction of the public after the release of "The Exorcist"? Were all the people kindly applauding?

Also, you may not have heard of violence then, but who says it is not cumulating, waiting for a good opportunity to explode, like it did in France?

[placebo1969]

No disrespect, but you sound like your justifying their behaviors. Anyone who burns a church/synagogue/mosque/etc. because someone burned a holy book is an animal.

[Face Ache]

Originally Posted by placebo1969

No disrespect, but you sound like your justifying their behaviors. Anyone who burns a church/synagogue/mosque/etc. because someone burned a holy book is an animal.

I watched The Island of Doctor Moreau last night and I was thinking of this pol forum all the way through it.

The hyena-man reminded me of one member in particular.

"WHAT IS THE LAW?"

[von Wrangell]

So the story is that a Muslim school and Christian churches were burned. But the focus is on how evil Muslims are. What a surprise.

I'll explain it to you. Every set of religion and every set of culture has its idiots. Idiots often do things that violate the laws and rules of their religion or culture. The Christian(s) who burned the school was an idiot. The Muslims who burned the churches were idiots.

But let me guess. This thread will continue to deal with only half the story.......

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

I'll explain it to you. Every set of religion and every set of culture has its idiots. Idiots often do things that violate the laws and rules of their religion or culture. The Christian who allegedly burned the school was an idiot if he did in fact do it. The Muslims who burned the churches were idiots.

Correctinated.

Desecration of the holy book carries the death penalty in Pakistan

What a lovely country.

Say, anyone know of a Christian country which hands out the death penalty for desecrating a book?

[Monique]

When it comes to Muslims from that region I am not surprise of that kind of reaction; and give me a break they are near explosion, they always were like that in Pakistan. Which is kind of funny I have met some Pakistani in Calgary and they are passionate but non violent. I do not know what they put in the water over there but suddenly you say the wrong thing and bang you are dead or torture.

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Correctinated.



What a lovely country.

Say, anyone know of a Christian country which hands out the death penalty for desecrating a book?

Trick question isnt it ? hehehe.... talk about facists and fanatics, you dont need to look really far. i wonder what makes ppl from Libya to Brunei and Chechnya to Somalia so disillusioned over paper and ink.

On the same note, i wonder what makes the Americas, Europe, Australia and the rest of the free world so tolerant(as opposed to racist) and liberal(welcomes change....can u imagine how we'd be/live if we were wearing the same clothes, spoke the same way and had the same social structures of out ancestors from 300,500,1000 years ago ? ).

Hmmmmmmm......since its obviously not religion/code of conduct (sarcasm), it's got to be either:
-color of skin
-oil
-climate
(being sarcastic of course)

Hehehe....pointless argument imo, cause the statistics and locations of different peoples living together equally around the world speaks for itself.

Cheers

[placebo1969]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

So the story is that a Muslim school and Christian churches were burned. But the focus is on how evil Muslims are. What a surprise.

I'll explain it to you. Every set of religion and every set of culture has its idiots. Idiots often do things that violate the laws and rules of their religion or culture. The Christian(s) who burned the school was an idiot. The Muslims who burned the churches were idiots.

But let me guess. This thread will continue to deal with only half the story.......

My focus or thesis is this:
Islam and/or Muslims do not appear as tolerant of other religions. Of course there are idiots in all religions. That's not the point. As mentioned elsewhere, there is a death penalty for desecrating the Quran. I don't know of any "Christian" country (or any other country for that matter) with a similar penalty for harming the Bible, Torah (or other holy books).

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by placebo1969

My focus or thesis is this:
Islam and/or Muslims do not appear as tolerant of other religions. Of course there are idiots in all religions. That's not the point. As mentioned elsewhere, there is a death penalty for desecrating the Quran. I don't know of any "Christian" country (or any other country for that matter) with a similar penalty for harming the Bible, Torah (or other holy books).

That death penalty is in fact un-islamic. It all goes back to the idiots.

[placebo1969]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

That death penalty is in fact un-islamic. It all goes back to the idiots.

I see where you're coming from, but to me, it's an easy way out. Your defense is that those "idiots" are "un-Islamic." But I am willing to wager that if you asked those "idiots" they would say they are "Islamic." Often times, perception is reality, no?

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

That death penalty is in fact un-islamic. It all goes back to the idiots.

An unusually high proportion of idiots in the muslim world if u ask me. i wonder what conditioned them to be that way, certainly one, or in this case so many, arent born that way.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by placebo1969

I see where you're coming from, but to me, it's an easy way out. Your defense is that those "idiots" are "un-Islamic." But I am willing to wager that if you asked those "idiots" they would say they are "Islamic." Often times, perception is reality, no?

Of course they would. Everything to stay in power or have any influence. Have you not seen the same elsewhere?

And if they'd say they are "Islamic" I'd just explain to them the cases where the death penalty applies. Then it'd be up to them to decide on their future.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

An unusually high proportion of idiots in the muslim world if u ask me. i wonder what conditioned them to be that way, certainly one(or rather so many) isnt born an idiot.

Why don't you just find some neo-nazi forum you can hang out on?

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Why don't you just find some neo-nazi forum you can hang out on?

Wouldnt know of any, i live in and support the free world. But if i ever travel to Pakistan or Iran or S.Arabia, im sure ill find a good number of anti-semites and neo-nazis.

PS>>i have no intention to travel to any of those places . i love wearing my boardies and seeing girls in bikins. id hate to end up in jail or at the gallows for that

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

Wouldnt know of any, i live in and support the free world. But if i ever travel to Pakistan or Iran or S.Arabia, im sure ill find a good number of anti-semites and neo-nazis.

Just google for them. I'm sure you'd fit right in there. You might have a problem with the anti-semitism because of your love for Jews but on most other issues you'd be in complete agreement with them.

[placebo1969]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Of course they would. Everything to stay in power or have any influence. Have you not seen the same elsewhere?

And if they'd say they are "Islamic" I'd just explain to them the cases where the death penalty applies. Then it'd be up to them to decide on their future.

So, let me get this straight. Because you said they're not real Muslims, then they are not? Does that mean there is no terrorism in the name of Islam based on your logic? Sounds like a pretty circular argument to me.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by placebo1969

So, let me get this straight. Because you said they're not real Muslims, then they are not? Does that mean there is no terrorism in the name of Islam based on your logic? Sounds like a pretty circular argument to me.

Just like Doofy, Hawkeye_a and mojo spread lies about Islam and Muslims there are "Muslims" who claim to be doing things in the name of Islam.

Is there terrorism in this world where the perpetrators claim that it is done in the name of Islam? Yes.
Is there such a thing as Islamic terrorism? No.

And tell me. Why didn't you start threads about all the mosques that have been burned or vandalised in Europe and the USA lately? I'll tell you why. It doesn't make national news. Only regional. Did you see me start a thread about it and in the process trying to smear all Christians because of it? No.

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by placebo1969

So, let me get this straight. Because you said they're not real Muslims, then they are not? Does that mean there is no terrorism in the name of Islam based on your logic? Sounds like a pretty circular argument to me.

uhoh....dont start that again lol...this argument has been had over and over on these boards, and no one has changed their minds.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Why don't you just find some neo-nazi forum you can hang out on?

Oh dear. Someone criticises something and you suggest they're a neo-nazi? How utterly convenient for you to not have to explain yourself, instead simply using that hyphenated term.

You know that that retort is going out of fashion these days, don't you? See, you overuse it in inappropriate measure and it quickly loses its impact.

But, back to the question... Why doesn't he go find a neo-nazi forum? Because he doesn't speak arabic and therefore wouldn't have a clue which method of exterminating the feelthy Jews everyone is talking about?

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

And tell me. Why didn't you start threads about all the mosques that have been burned or vandalised in Europe and the USA lately? I'll tell you why. It doesn't make national news. Only regional. Did you see me start a thread about it and in the process trying to smear all Christians because of it? No.

lol..please enlighten us then. A few sources from where you get your news would be great.

Also note worth:
-Muslims are equals in the most of Europe, Australia and the US (voting citizens, free to practice their religion. last i checked more people from the muslim world seek residency and citizenship in the "free world" than the other way around as well...maybe cause we actually open our doors to everyone irrespective of religion)
-Most of the vandalism is met with a greater backlash for intolerance towards minorities, which has never happened in the middle east (what with the expulsion of Jews, Christians, Armenians, Zorastrians, etc from their homelands).

But, ill play your game. whoever vanadalizes the mosques (kinda like how the muslims did in Constantenople(aka Istanbul)) dont claim to be Christians or "Christian extremisits", and even if they did, by your aargument theyre not Christian either, eh ?

But anyway.... you make some serious allegations....show me a single account of where a muslim desecrated the bible and as a result "Christians" burned down mosque(s). (recent history of course, i wouldnt want to go back tothe time when the Turks were advancing onto Europe and the Moors were invading Spain, etc).

Sure, we arent perfect, what with the Holocaust(anti-jewish), Bosnia(anti-muslim) etc. But guess what, there was an even greater determination from the "freeworld" to do away with those factions, and we...yes we, took care of it, which is more that can be said of the "islamic terrorists" these days.

PS>> i remember after 9/11 there were a couple of instances in the U.S., but i watched that on CNN/Fox, and well,like you said...they cant be trusted, so i guess i can doubt if it ever happened in the first place.

[placebo1969]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Just like Doofy, Hawkeye_a and mojo spread lies about Islam and Muslims there are "Muslims" who claim to be doing things in the name of Islam.

Is there terrorism in this world where the perpetrators claim that it is done in the name of Islam? Yes.
Is there such a thing as Islamic terrorism? No.

And tell me. Why didn't you start threads about all the mosques that have been burned or vandalised in Europe and the USA lately? I'll tell you why. It doesn't make national news. Only regional. Did you see me start a thread about it and in the process trying to smear all Christians because of it? No.

I'm not trying to smear all Muslims. I saw the article and noticed that it said the burnings were allegedly because someone burned or otherwise damaged a Quran. To me, that's intolerant. Nothing more, nothing less.

Since you say there is no such thing as Islamic terrorism, then do you believe there is no such thing as Christian terrorism?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Just like Doofy, Hawkeye_a and mojo spread lies about Islam and Muslims there are "Muslims" who claim to be doing things in the name of Islam.

Yep. About a billion of them.

You're very seriously misled about your religion vW, just like most Jehovah's Witnesses are very seriously misled about their religion. I suggest going and looking at everything I've said about it on this forum and cross-referencing it with all of the available history, especially what I've been saying about territory. The truth is right under your nose if you care to simply look at it from a "logical" perspective.

I mean, surely there's a reason why I've got a hard on for islam and not for Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, etc., etc.?

[Doofy]

Hamster jihad post!

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by placebo1969

I'm not trying to smear all Muslims. I saw the article and noticed that it said the burnings were allegedly because someone burned or otherwise damaged a Quran. To me, that's intolerant. Nothing more, nothing less.

Since you say there is no such thing as Islamic terrorism, then do you believe there is no such thing as Christian terrorism?

I'm sorry for not being clear enough. I didn't mean that you were trying to do that. You seem to be one of the few left on these boards who is able to criticise and just honestly disagree with Islam. I've nothing against that. It's the Doofies, mojos and Hawkeyes of this world (and especially on this forum) that I meant. They hide behind "just disagreeing with Islam". I've seen it before, I see it now and unfortunately I'll see it again tomorrow. But for your points in this post.

1. I agree that it is intolerant but I want to add something. Not only is it intolerant but it is also against Islam. Muhammad (pbuh) clearly said that churches and synagogues should not be damaged as they are houses of worship for the same God as Muslims pray to.

2. Yes, there is no such thing as Christian terrorism. There is terrorism committed by Christians as well as terrorism committed by Christians in the name of God. That doesn't mean that Christianity promotes terrorism or that Christianity needs to be updated.

3. The reason I reply as I do is because there are members of this forum that jump on these threads to spread their lies, hatred and ignorance. So instead of actually being able to condemn the act you brought up in the first post I'm put in the position of having to defend my religion and fight against racism. And perhaps the saddest thing is that the moderators won't do anything. The most they will do is warn (or perhaps ban) me. Listening to the macnn members I've mentioned before is just like listening to the neo-nazis I fought in Sweden. It's the same rationalizations, the same arguments and as always trying to hide behind "just disagreeing with the religion/culture".

[Monique]

I am sure on one billion Muslims there are a bunch of idiots that think terrorizing the world is a good thing.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

I'm sorry for not being clear enough. I didn't mean that you were trying to do that. You seem to be one of the few left on these boards who is able to criticise and just honestly disagree with Islam. I've nothing against that. It's the Doofies, mojos and Hawkeyes of this world (and especially on this forum) that I meant. They hide behind "just disagreeing with Islam". I've seen it before, I see it now and unfortunately I'll see it again tomorrow.

That's a lie. You've forgotten how to tell the truth from a lie (I wonder what caused that).

I'm not hiding behind anything. I don't like your religion. I rather think it's a cult that got out of hand rather than a religion and that everyone who subscribes to it, including yourself, has simply fallen for the lies presented therein.

There you go. Which bit of that was "hiding behind" something?

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Just like Doofy, Hawkeye_a and mojo spread lies about Islam and Muslims there are "Muslims" who claim to be doing things in the name of Islam.

Is there terrorism in this world where the perpetrators claim that it is done in the name of Islam? Yes.
Is there such a thing as Islamic terrorism? No.

And tell me. Why didn't you start threads about all the mosques that have been burned or vandalised in Europe and the USA lately? I'll tell you why. It doesn't make national news. Only regional. Did you see me start a thread about it and in the process trying to smear all Christians because of it? No.

Gotcha! WRONG! You said so yourself. We are noty spreading lies as much as we are responding to the Muslims who you call, un_Islamic but who say they are VERY Islamic. We quote the interpretations THEY BELIEVE. We cite Quran and Hadith THEY USE. We point out the things THEY DO as a result of what THEY READ AND INTERPRET!

What reasonable person would IGNORE THEM AND WHAT THEY DO AND THE THREAT THEY POSE...the attacks, the violence, the aggression, the threats, the destruction and the indiscriminate killings...

What reasonable person could ignore that and content themselves with your soothing assurances that THOSE are bad people who are not following the Quran? Who could really expect the intended targets of their actions would/should/could just ignore them and ignore that?

Are you daft???

You insinuate we should just listen to YOU! As if you are trying to get us to just follow everything you say, "I will tell you how to think and what to do. Islam is peaceful and you should put on blinders and ear plugs and just be pacified by the things I tell you."

"Ignore them. Listen to me. Ignore them. Listen to me."

So, if we are CAREFUL to always make the distinction that the things we say and the people we are talking about are the UN-ISLAMIC Muslims, then that will be better. Huh? We saw how Pendergast, who we all thought was a good guy, take advantage of the little musical game thread to attack and then he gloated about it, "heh, heh."

THAT is the fear and where did he get that from?

Is it because he is young?

Is it because he has competitive instincts?

Is it because he is performing his version of jihad? His little telltale indication that when push comes to shove he intends to shove harder than the infidels and that the infidels should never trust him because the moment we let down our guard he will try to take advantage.

And he is not seen as a young person with a young person's competitive instincts. He is seen as a Muslim and he is no different than thousands or millions of other Muslims I would guess, who want to perform THEIR little portion of jihad when the time comes, if IN THEIR INTERPRETATION OF THE QURAN, it would help advance or defend the religion.

And so, to respond to this makes us lie spreaders and xenophobes and racists?

Nope.

WRONG.

Once again, you have a tough time with this effort because you know what we're saying is the truth.

No lies, just observations. If you were to go through the archives and trace EVERY ONE OF THE PEOPLE who you say are Muslim haters, (I know you wouldn't do it because you'd see I'm right) you'd find that all of them came to MacNN with AT LEAST a neutral attitude toward Muslims and Islam. It is only by becoming informed and seeing example after example and observing repeated patterns of behavior from history and in various places all over the world that we have come to recognize these things that we show you. It is like a reflection and when you see that reflection you don't like what you see or you want others who are still impressionable to be influenced unduly and so you lob accusations of 'liar, racist, xenophobe."

You really want to know the truth? I do not know the religious preference of ANYONE here and I don't care about anyone's religion. Why? Because their religion poses no threat to me, no matter how they interpret it. The people here whose religions I'm aware of are the Muslims, well, that is except for some who I believe are keeping their Islamic beliefs to themselves.

Why is that?

Because it is made part of the debate, mostly. But there is also the fact that in trying to figure out HOW to reduce the threat to ourselves we must focus on who seeks to attack us.

The person and people responsible for so many attacks on the US and the US interests and the Israelis and their interests identify themselves as Muslims. But our own judgment tells us that not EVERY Muslim is a threat. And so we look for ways to determine who is and who isn't a threat. And we look to identify when, where, why and how the threat materializes.

And we read and study and think and we notice from our reading and study and observations that SOME Muslims believe in killing because of what the Quran says. The fact that they may be un-Islamic doesn't change the fact that they are reading the Quran for their instructions.

Then, we notice there are instances of Muslims taking over different parts of the world, piece by piece. And when we bring these facts to light (why would you want them to remain obscured and unnoticed?) you begin calling us these vicious names.

Then, we try to educate our fellow infidels to the threat and you interfere with this by engaging in debate which only serves to confuse the average reader.

You call vmarks a racist. You call Doofy and Hawkeye_a and placebo1969 and Spliffdaddy and MacNStein and Railroader and Spacefreak and Monique and moki and Millenium and Simey and Zimphire and whoever else I'm missing, and me racists, too?

Shame on you.

I see you as trying to keep us from doing what is necessary to protect ourselves from the people YOU say are un-Islamic and who YOU SAY you do not support!

[von Wrangell]

You aren't "protecting yourself". You are attacking every single Muslim on this earth. You are making every Muslim on this earth spend more time protecting himself and his brothers and sisters instead of being on your side.

I've seen both your and doofy's speech before. And just after that I heard a "Sieg Heil!". Maybe you haven't realised it yet but you are just one more racist pig. You both use "Islam" as the reason while in reality it's the "Muslim" looking people who you hate. Now, you'll both probably say "But I have friends that are Arabs/Muslims!!" and guess what!? I've heard the same f*cking lie before.

I've fought your kind my whole life. I will continue to fight your kind the rest of my life. It might cause me to be banned but so what? One day I might have the chance to meet you in real life. And to be honest I can't wait.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

You aren't "protecting yourself". You are attacking every single Muslim on this earth. You are making every Muslim on this earth spend more time protecting himself and his brothers and sisters instead of being on your side.

You are brainwashed.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

I've seen both your and doofy's speech before. And just after that I heard a "Sieg Heil!". Maybe you haven't realised it yet but you are just one more racist pig.

islam is not a race.

Or are you lumping Mojo and I in with the people you've met in the past? With those that you've had personal experiences with? Isn't that exactly what you accuse us of?

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

You both use "Islam" as the reason while in reality it's the "Muslim" looking people who you hate.

Lies.
Now, if you're lying about that...

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Now, you'll both probably say "But I have friends that are Arabs/Muslims!!" and guess what!? I've heard the same f*cking lie before.

Ummm, vW... ...away from the PL I class you as something of a "friend". So your logic's not really holding up, is it?

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

I've fought your kind my whole life. I will continue to fight your kind the rest of my life. It might cause me to be banned but so what? One day I might have the chance to meet you in real life. And to be honest I can't wait.

Wait. That's not a threat is it? I thought your version of islam was "moderate" and didn't do that kind of thing. Ooops, you blew your cover and showed yourself to have exactly the same mentality as the terrorists you claim are "un-islamic".

Case closed.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

You aren't "protecting yourself". You are attacking every single Muslim on this earth. You are making every Muslim on this earth spend more time protecting himself and his brothers and sisters instead of being on your side.

I've seen both your and doofy's speech before. And just after that I heard a "Sieg Heil!". Maybe you haven't realised it yet but you are just one more racist pig. You both use "Islam" as the reason while in reality it's the "Muslim" looking people who you hate. Now, you'll both probably say "But I have friends that are Arabs/Muslims!!" and guess what!? I've heard the same f*cking lie before.

I've fought your kind my whole life. I will continue to fight your kind the rest of my life. It might cause me to be banned but so what? One day I might have the chance to meet you in real life. And to be honest I can't wait.

Do you really think you will get the chance? Or will you send someone to do your light work? Some of your little friends from the posts a week ago who seemed very riled up. Are you sure you can rely on the IP to find me? Are you sure I won't be wait with a surprise for you or them?

Do you really wish to disrupt the timing for the whole takeover of America, thing by alerting everyone to your threat and perhaps attack on me?

The authorities already know about you, pal.

[mojo2]

Dp...

[von Wrangell]

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by placebo1969

No disrespect, but you sound like your justifying their behaviors. Anyone who burns a church/synagogue/mosque/etc. because someone burned a holy book is an animal.

I said it was not OK. What the heck do you want more from me? Self-crucifixion?

You do suffer from one-sided judgement; on one side, you are clear that the act that you pointed out to was wrong. I think we all agree with that judgement.

But that it never happened that Christians may have done similar things is wrong, either from a past perspective, or an actual one.

You had Christians desecrate Jewish tombs. I am certain such acts were also perpetrated against Muslims, or similar acts. To say it never happened is stating your ignorance.

Now I am not sure it did though... But I think the case can be made that where ever there are human beings, anything is possible and religion will be used to rationalize the act. I mean, you have good Christian serial killers...

[mojo2]

5 Buildings (2 churches, a school, a student hostel and a priest's home) burned by Muslims.

1 Building (a one room Islamic school) and copies of the Quran reportedly burned by Christian gambler.

From a one room school and some holy books burned they respond in a manner greatly out of proportion to the suspected offense.

They remind me of Africanized bees...aka, Killer Bees!

Descended from Apis mellifera scutellata, Africanized honey bees are native to the Savanna country of eastern and southern Africa. Introduced into Brazil in 1956 for honey production far superior to common European honey bees, Africanized bees have now spread throughout South and Central America, Mexico and into parts of the southern United States. They possess behaviors which tend to make them undesirable.

Easily agitated, Africanized honey bees are ferocious defenders of their nests, responding to colony disturbances with violent, threatening behavior. With five times as many guards in their nests as European honey bees, a disturbance alarm is quickly communicated throughout the nest. Approximately half the population pours out of the hive at a rate three times greater than European honey bees. The object of the disturbance is beset with intensely stinging bees which results in eight to ten times more stinging than European honey bees. Once incited, Africanized bees stay agitated for several hours and can attack a source of movement with little provocation. This can result in the death of humans and livestock. High temperature and humidity can increase agitation.

Africanized bees are tropical bees which have no need of winter honey storage. Honey is readily consumed for colony reproduction and population growth so although much honey is produced, little is stored in combs. Drones are produced rapidly and in large numbers. Africanized bees are more individual foragers than European honey bees and can effectively forage in times and areas of weak pollen and nectar flow. Africanized honey bees abscond prolifically. Responding readily to disturbances, seasonal changes or shortages of pollen and/or nectar, they will routinely swarm six to twelve times per year. Often a result of absconding behavior is the take-over of nests of European honey bees. This is done either by prolific drones entering European honey bee hives, outnumbering the European drones and ultimately breeding with European queens, or by agressive Africanized workers entering hives, killing the European queens and thus enabling the establishment of Africanized queens in the hives.

I suppose this makes me anti-bee? Or a bug-ist?

[zwiebel_]

For those clumping all Moslems into the same pot, please read http://www.meforum.org/article/166 for some much-needed clarifications.

Originally Posted by placebo1969

Explain this to me

snip:

Could someone explain this to me. Why is there so much anger? Why the hate? Looking at this from afar (literally and figuratively), I just don't understand.

Explain to me 600+ destroyed mosques and other religious objects by Orthodox Cristians during the serb aggression on Bosnia. Not trying to be a smart-a**, but could there be some parallels drawn?

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by mojo2

5 Buildings (2 churches, a school, a student hostel and a priest's home) burned by Muslims.

1 Building (a one room Islamic school) and copies of the Quran reportedly burned by Christian gambler.

They remind me of Africanized bees...aka, Killer Bees!

Were they all believers?

And do we know why they did what they did?

Let me rephrase that: how was the Quran desacralized? And what was offensive about it?

And why has the Quran been desacralized? It appears that this is not the only incident; we can go back as far as 1997 at least...

Somehow, I suspect more needs to be explained.

[Pendergast]

Oh!

Muslims burn churches after desecration report

LAHORE , Pakistan - Hundreds of Muslims attacked and burned two churches in Pakistan on Saturday after reports that a Christian man had desecrated Islam's holy book. No one was injured in the blazes.

A school, student hostel and the home of a priest were also torched by the crowd of about 1,500 Muslims near the town of Sangla Hill, about 80 miles northeast of Lahore, said police official Ali Asghar Dogar.

The attacks were being investigated. About two dozen people had been arrested, Dogar said.


The fires came a day after a local Muslim resident accused a Christian of burning a one-room Islamic school along with copies of the Quran. Dogar said the allegations were apparently leveled by people who lost money while gambling with the Christian man on Friday, but police had detained him and were investigating.

hmmmm....

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

I'm sorry for not being clear enough. I didn't mean that you were trying to do that. You seem to be one of the few left on these boards who is able to criticise and just honestly disagree with Islam. I've nothing against that. It's the Doofies, mojos and Hawkeyes of this world (and especially on this forum) that I meant. They hide behind "just disagreeing with Islam". I've seen it before, I see it now and unfortunately I'll see it again tomorrow. But for your points in this post.

1. I agree that it is intolerant but I want to add something. Not only is it intolerant but it is also against Islam. Muhammad (pbuh) clearly said that churches and synagogues should not be damaged as they are houses of worship for the same God as Muslims pray to.

2. Yes, there is no such thing as Christian terrorism. There is terrorism committed by Christians as well as terrorism committed by Christians in the name of God. That doesn't mean that Christianity promotes terrorism or that Christianity needs to be updated.

3. The reason I reply as I do is because there are members of this forum that jump on these threads to spread their lies, hatred and ignorance. So instead of actually being able to condemn the act you brought up in the first post I'm put in the position of having to defend my religion and fight against racism. And perhaps the saddest thing is that the moderators won't do anything. The most they will do is warn (or perhaps ban) me. Listening to the macnn members I've mentioned before is just like listening to the neo-nazis I fought in Sweden. It's the same rationalizations, the same arguments and as always trying to hide behind "just disagreeing with the religion/culture".

In the "Unrest, violence in France" thread I elaborated on the issues that cause discrimination, or what you choose to call racism.

Why do you think SOME people are responding the way they do to radical Muslims and are 'cool' (as opposed to warm) about the idea of Muslims moving into their part of the world?

Do you think it's about RACE?

Why have Asians come here in the MILLIONS and, other than when were at war with the Japanese, welcomed them and given them the chance to grab their share of the American dream?

When we have latins who assimilate. We have blacks who assimilate. We have Asians. And Europeans. And Russians. And even Canadians.

You have been told sooooooo many times but you choose to ignore the message.

There is something about the Quran that makes SOME of the Muslims behave aggressively and try to dominate non-Muslim areas and there is something about the Quran that makes SOME Muslims want to kill non-Muslims (and DEFINITELY the Jews!).

You can tell us that those aren't REAL Muslims, but they cite chapter and verse of the Quran as their rationale for their actions and beliefs.

And it is THOSE knuckle heads who we are afraid of. Now. I'll leave it to YOU to come up with a way we can reasonably be expected to protect ourselves.

The WWII internment camps for the Japanese may have been an unfortunate thing to do. But have you ever thought of this?


While US soldiers were fighting and dying in the Pacific you can bet there were some angry US families who would have been likely to take out their anger at ANYONE they saw who looked Japanese here in the US if their loved one were killed.

The Japanese were kept safe from that in the camps. They were also removed as a threat or a possible threat to the US for the duration.

A most unfortunate thing to have to do, but it served a purpose.

That is ONE way to protect innocents on both sides. Now it's your turn to come up with another way.