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World War 3 Brews...Ignoramuses Get Caught Pants Down
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Horsepoo!!!
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Aug 8, 2008, 06:37 PM
 
Yes folks, if you're American and you've been following your mainstream media you probably had no idea that Russia has been massing their forces after countless US provocations. These last few months, Russia has been shipping military equipment to Venezuela and has been taunted by the US from anti-missile shields on the EU borders to US troops massing up and training in Georgia.

Of course, the US always picks these wonderful easy to remember dates to strike...9/11 to strike on their own people and now 08/08/08 for a sneak attack on the Russians from Georgia.

Yes...you'll hear a lot of things from your precious, precious Fox News, MSNBC, CNN, and perhaps UK BBC...things like "Russia attacks Georgia" or some phony baloney bullshit that doesn't even match European press that isn't controlled by the neocons running the US and UK.

But anyway...this could essentially escalate to WW3 just like the US wanted.

ps...ignoramuses = some of you people living in fantasy land
     
goMac
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Aug 8, 2008, 06:40 PM
 
Actually South Ossetia attacked Georgia first on Thursday. So Georgia didn't start it.

But whatever. Yay conspiracy theories!

(I'm not saying it's not a serious situation, I'm just saying... the US isn't behind it.)
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Horsepoo!!!  (op)
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Aug 8, 2008, 06:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
Actually South Ossetia attacked Georgia first on Thursday. So Georgia didn't start it.

But whatever. Yay conspiracy theories!

(I'm not saying it's not a serious situation, I'm just saying... the US isn't behind it.)
Alright wise guy...start talking...I want to see if you really know anything about all this or if you're just being deceived by your media.
     
Horsepoo!!!  (op)
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Aug 8, 2008, 06:55 PM
 
I'm sick and tired of Americans calling everything conspiracy theories. GET OVER IT...you know your ****ing country is being run by neocons. All the facts are glaring in your faces and you call it conspiracy theories. Brain dead...your country is brain dead. Most of you are zombie slaves to your government and media. Your economy is crumbling and WW3 is brewing yet "everything's fine".

I don't know when the blinders will be pulled off.

Let's face it. The US is in the business of making armament. The US has no other big industries that could potentially repay your 500 billion dollar debt. The US wants wars. It's the only thing its got left.

I'm sorry I have to be so harsh and anti-US...but when people laugh and call everything they disagree with conspiracy theories, it just irritates me.
     
design219
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Aug 8, 2008, 07:02 PM
 
You warnings are scary.

Well, at least we don't have to worry about things like aliens from outer space. Something like that would be very alarming.
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goMac
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Aug 8, 2008, 07:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
Alright wise guy...start talking...I want to see if you really know anything about all this or if you're just being deceived by your media.
What happened was Georgia signed a cease fire with South Ossetia, and a few hours later South Ossetia attacked Georgia. Georgia followed by taking control of South Ossetia, and Russia followed by invading South Ossetia, and then Georgia.

I think Georgia may have overreacted a bit, but the whole situation seems to be pretty clear of US involvement.
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Horsepoo!!!  (op)
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Aug 8, 2008, 07:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
What happened was Georgia signed a cease fire with South Ossetia, and a few hours later South Ossetia attacked Georgia. Georgia followed by taking control of South Ossetia, and Russia followed by invading South Ossetia, and then Georgia.

I think Georgia may have overreacted a bit, but the whole situation seems to be pretty clear of US involvement.
Dude...South Ossetia is WITH Russia. Georgia was the one provoking South Ossetia and pulling sneak attacks on it. Russia is not gonna sit idle while US troops in Georgia are ****in' around with South Ossetia and Russia.

The fantastic lies being fed by your media are amazing. Probably 95% of Americans will fall for them and truly think Russia has attacked first and that the US is retaliating when it's the complete opposite.

It's sad because Americans will continue to fight and die for their country on lies. It's never going to end. It's like perpetual ignorance.

I'm not pro-Russia. Far from it. But I can't stand the US anymore. The lies are clear and in plain sight. The world is ****ing scary right now but most Americans have their rose-tinted glasses on and chatting away in the Coffee or Tea and Have You Ever Pooped Your Pants threads.

I assure you, most of you will be drinking neither coffee nor tea and will have pooped your pants within the next 4 years.
     
Captain Obvious
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Aug 8, 2008, 07:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
I assure you, most of you will be drinking neither coffee nor tea and will have pooped your pants within the next 4 years.

Thanks Nostradamus.
But if its bad for us you can bet your country will be screwed long before the U.S. as it is undoubtedly lower on the global food chain.

I hope you built your bunker to hide in and stocked it with plenty of goodie Slick.

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Big Mac
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Aug 8, 2008, 07:58 PM
 
Has Horsecrap finally wiffed enough of his own whatsit to rot his brain completely, or is this a joke thread?

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
Helmling
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Aug 8, 2008, 08:11 PM
 
Um, I'm all for trying to smear the neocons and all, but why in the hell would anybody in the US government want this? This creates one hell of a headache for the US.
     
ebuddy
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Aug 8, 2008, 08:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
Yes folks, if you're American and you've been following your mainstream media you probably had no idea that Russia has been massing their forces after countless US provocations. These last few months, Russia has been shipping military equipment to Venezuela and has been taunted by the US from anti-missile shields on the EU borders to US troops massing up and training in Georgia.

Of course, the US always picks these wonderful easy to remember dates to strike...9/11 to strike on their own people and now 08/08/08 for a sneak attack on the Russians from Georgia.

Yes...you'll hear a lot of things from your precious, precious Fox News, MSNBC, CNN, and perhaps UK BBC...things like "Russia attacks Georgia" or some phony baloney bullshit that doesn't even match European press that isn't controlled by the neocons running the US and UK.

But anyway...this could essentially escalate to WW3 just like the US wanted.

ps...ignoramuses = some of you people living in fantasy land
You got a link for any of this tough guy?

This hit and run shxx is getting old. Did we attack with a missile this time? A drone? A planted explosive? Which is it? When y'all figure it out and can agree on one story, please give a link. I can't wait to tear that to friggin' shreds too. Let me guess... zionists.
ebuddy
     
chris v
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Aug 8, 2008, 09:07 PM
 
The Trilateral Commission! The Illuminati!

Seriously, this is a not-so-good thing. I'm glad I'm not a NATO commander, right now. Does Georgia have any mutual defense pacts with anyone to the west of it, or does Europe just let Russia have at it? (I have no true idea who the "original" aggressor is here -- undoubtedly, it goes back to at least 1917, if you ask the right people, so I'm not going to get into considering who to blame.) S'pose I'll go read up on it, for what good it'll do.

*sigh*

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Randman
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Aug 8, 2008, 09:43 PM
 
I like the vague headline. OP should write them for a profession.

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Aug 8, 2008, 09:51 PM
 
We (Tennessee) play Georgia this fall, I'm really looking forward to that game.

Never heard of South Ossetia though, are they in the WAC?
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chris v
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Aug 8, 2008, 10:31 PM
 
I found a pretty good map of the area here:

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/commo...egion_1994.jpg

That whole part of Russia and the -- whaddya call them? "Caucasus States?" is a bloody mess and has been since the breakup of the USSR.

Edit: We're talking about a 20 x 25 mile piece of land, here. What's the matter with people?

When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift.
     
chris v
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Aug 8, 2008, 10:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Never heard of South Ossetia though, are they in the WAC?
I think they're a division III school that somehow thinks they should be playing in the Big East.

When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift.
     
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Aug 9, 2008, 12:15 AM
 
World War 3? I think not. A little paranoid now aren't we?
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goMac
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Aug 9, 2008, 12:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
Dude...South Ossetia is WITH Russia. Georgia was the one provoking South Ossetia and pulling sneak attacks on it. Russia is not gonna sit idle while US troops in Georgia are ****in' around with South Ossetia and Russia.
While they are close to Moscow, they're an independent territory. They're an independent territory managed by both Georgian and Russian peacekeepers.

If they're part of Russia, then why have there been Georgian peacekeepers there for many years?

You're seriously reaching here. I don't know where you're getting your information, but you're dramatically over-simplifying the situation.

I don't know why you think this would be World War fodder anyway. Georgia has already requested no military aid, the US isn't sending any, and it's not exactly going to be a long war. If this is a conspiracy, it has to be the dumbest one ever.
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Aug 9, 2008, 12:40 AM
 
Didn't anyone hear about Russia getting in bed with Cuba again. Talks are on.

To be fair, if the U.S. can put missiles in Poland why can't Russia put missiles in Cuba. Goose and gander stuff.

Starting negotiations with Cuba was Putin's stand on The Polish situation.

Me thinks 'Cold War II' may heat up.

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Helmling
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Aug 9, 2008, 01:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster View Post
Didn't anyone hear about Russia getting in bed with Cuba again. Talks are on.

To be fair, if the U.S. can put missiles in Poland why can't Russia put missiles in Cuba. Goose and gander stuff.

Starting negotiations with Cuba was Putin's stand on The Polish situation.

Me thinks 'Cold War II' may heat up.
No, that might get in the way of everyone making more money.
     
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Aug 9, 2008, 01:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by Helmling View Post
No, that might get in the way of everyone making more money.
Not if they're making money on weapons or bomb shelters for those on the receiving end of said weapons. There is plenty of money to be made, especially during times of war. If the Georgia-Russia conflict spreads outside of South Ossetia you can be sure we (the US) will be involved somehow and someone will be making a buck off of our involvement.
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Aug 9, 2008, 02:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
Georgia has already requested no military aid, the US isn't sending any, and it's not exactly going to be a long war.
Actually, Georgia is pulling 1,000 of their 2,000 troops from Iraq, and they've requested that the US fly those troops back to Georgia ASAP.

Another interesting note: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7549662.stm

Russia has issued most South Ossetians with Russian passports, potentially justifying direct intervention (on the grounds of protecting "its own" citizens).
So if the US wants to take over Cuba, all that's needed is a delivery of a few thousand passports to Cuban political prisoners. Then the US can invade Cuba with the justification that they were protecting US citizens.
( Last edited by spacefreak; Aug 9, 2008 at 02:28 AM. )
     
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Aug 9, 2008, 02:22 AM
 
As for US interests...

A U.S.-backed oil pipeline runs through Georgia, allowing the West to reduce its reliance on Middle Eastern oil while bypassing Russia and Iran...

The pipeline that crosses Georgia can pump slightly more than 1 million barrels of crude oil per day, or more than 1 percent of the world's daily crude output. The 1,100-mile pipeline carries oil from Azerbaijan's Caspian Sea fields, estimated to hold the world's third-largest reserves.
Does anyone think or expect the US is going to be cool with the possibility of Russia seizing this pipeline?
     
goMac
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Aug 9, 2008, 02:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by spacefreak View Post
Actually, Georgia is pulling 1,000 of their 2,000 troops from Iraq, and they've requested that the US fly those troops back to Georgia ASAP.
Right, I had meant that the US wasn't sending any of their own troops.

I'm not sure the US is going to want to fly those troops back, it's way too small of a country and they risk getting their planes shot down.
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Aug 9, 2008, 02:45 AM
 
Here's a reprint of a 2006 Op-Ed article on the situation between Russia and Georgia.

I found this bit extremely interesting...
(Georgian leader) Saakashvili's best American friends are Sen. John McCain, who has made support of democracy in the former Soviet Union a major theme, and George Soros, who helped pay salaries for the bankrupt Georgian civil service system in 2004.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...080803336.html
     
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Aug 9, 2008, 02:58 AM
 
Bush goes to Congress, makes his case, gets authorizations to do battle, then prepares a case and presents it to the UN, trying to get votes on this and that. Some rounds of inspections, additional UN resolutions. It doesn't satisfy everyone, but he tried to go about it the proper way.

Russia - when they want to go to war, they just do it. No real advance notice, no highly-publicized internal debate or UN presentations/debates, etc. No attempts at UN diplomacy whatsoever.

Are we going to see Russians protesting on the streets of Moscow?
( Last edited by spacefreak; Aug 9, 2008 at 03:04 AM. )
     
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Aug 9, 2008, 04:16 AM
 
*wipes a tear from his eye*

It isn't too often that all angles of the spectrum agree against some jackass.
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red rocket
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Aug 9, 2008, 04:18 AM
 
Here’s an analogy:

South Ossetia is to Georgia as Northern Ireland is to England.
Russia is the ROI.

Northern Ireland wants to be free of the Sassenachs, and receives logical assistance from Éire. Since the Sassenach government and its cynical Scots masters are suspicious of the pro-EU Irish, the Illuminatist media complex portrays the ROI as the aggressor, in order to stir up traditional anti-Irish prejudices and pave the way for an assault on the Emerald Isle by Western Neo-Imperialist economic forces.
     
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Aug 9, 2008, 11:28 AM
 
Putin, dictator for life,the real power behind the throne is helping out the poor down trodden people. Something smells in all of this and it ain't the diesel from the tanks of the Russian Federation.

Its an excellent strategy actually. Retaking some of the former provinces would go along way to boast the patriotic and nationalistic tendencies in Russia. It would garner alot of support among both hardliners and portions of the general population.
South Ossetia's annexation by Russia would mean quite a territorial loss for Georgia, considering it's pretty small to begin with. Furthermore, it might ignite new disputes in the other two regions to the southwest and northwest and cause even more losses. Russia seems determined to keep Georgia from becoming a NATO member, and of course keeping the US out of the Caucaus region.


This is all about oil, piplines, and Putin expanding Russian influence towards the Middle East.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baku-Tb...eyhan_pipeline (take note that Tbilisi is the capital of Georgia) The pipeline carries crude oil and gas from the Caspian Sea region to the western markets. Russia, wanting to be the sole supplier of gas to EU, has always opposed to that. Now that they've created a chaos inside Georgia, they might take the opportunity to sabotage the pipeline or simply cut the flow. Don't be surprised if the price of gas suddenly rises dramatically.
Unless NATO supports Georgia..The georgians stand no military chance. the USA is over streched in Iraq and Afghanistan.. But The Georgians should give them a nice bloody nose though, they have some nice new ATGW toys from europe...I smell alot of small AT teams...the Georgians should have maybe gotten the idea that some cool SF operation was needed in order to seize the road tunnels and that rigging them for demo would be a rather high priority if they wanted to have any hope of success. After all, this was probably the most likely scenario they had to plan for during the last 2 decades.
We have a Small (population in the tens of thousands, economically non-viable, surrounded on three sides by country it's claiming to independent from, connection to the outside world a single road tunnel under mountains all passes over which are closed every winter) territory winning "independence" in a nasty civil war in which its forces are armed & aided by Russia, which then sends in "peacekeepers" to separate the warring sides. Said "independence" consists of division of the territory into a patchwork of towns & villages, some (those inhabited mainly by one ethnic group) governed by the Russian-financed (admitted by Russia) "independent" government, others (about 30% - inhabited mainly by another ethnic group) governed by the state which "independence" has been declared from.

The really interesting twist is that the so-called "independent" government doesn't issue its own passports. Its entire population carry Russian passports. The Russians now claim to be intervening to protect these "independent" Russian citizens. I'm intrigued - how can they be independent, & Russian? Under the Russian citizenship acts of 1991 & 2002, as far as I can see most South Ossetians are not entitled to Russian citizenship. They were mostly not born in Russia, nor (in most cases) are they descended from anyone born in Russia, nor are they former Soviet citizens resident in Russia. They qualified under Article 11 of the Compatriots Act of 1999 (passed by the Russian parliament over a presidential veto), but this was revoked in 2002 (Putin supported its revocation), & claims of citizenship under this act have not been recognized by Russian courts or executive agencies unless granted during those three years. I wonder on what basis South Ossetians are recognized as Russian citizens?

You can see why Ukraine backs Georgia. Issuing your passports to disgruntled citizens of a neighboring state then invading to enforce their "independence" is a somewhat worrying trend for several neighbors of Russia. Kazakhstan, Estonia & Ukraine must find this deeply disturbing. My wife is originally from Ukraine,has much family there, I hope the Russians stay away from Ukraine

Russian policy is also interestingly inconsistent. Compare South Ossetia with Chechnya. Consider that one of Russians better reasons for forcibly intervening in Chechnya was that it had become a centre for government-backed organized crime. South Ossetia has been going the same way. One would think that the Russian government would be pleased that the Georgians were seeking to close down this center for international crime, & seek to prevent the setting of precedents for the secession of petty statelets in the Caucasus.


Judging from yesterday's CNN interview with Georgian President Saakashvili, the official Georgian justification of the operations by the Georgian military seems to be some sort of preemptive move into South Ossetia. He claimed Russia was massing ground troops on the border for at least the last few weeks, and that Russia made the initial move at midnight Thursday-Friday, crossing the border during the night, on the pretext of keeping the peace and reacting to firefights in the south of the region. Saakashvili explained that action didn't leave him any other choice to move into South Ossetia himself to try and take the capital preventing the Russians access there. So his story was that the whole Operation from the Russian side was preplanned and intentionally timed during the start of the Olympics as a sort of land grab of sovereign Georgian territory, which Georgia tried to prevent by its own incursion into S-O.

Now, the Russian Operations indeed seem pretty well conceived. Judging from the reports, there seem to be at least 3 Divisions in action, in addition to substantial contributions by the air force and maybe even the Black Sea Fleet. It looks as if fighting in Abkhazia also involves Russian military as well.

So the questions to ask yourself are :
Could it be that President Saakashvili is actually right? How much time does it take to plan the move of Russian divisional-sized units in such an operation? Is it even possible to prepare for something like this in a few hours, as the Russian explanation seems to be?
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goMac
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Aug 9, 2008, 03:47 PM
 
"Georgia's President Mikhail Saakashvili proposed a cease-fire Saturday. As part of his proposal, Georgian troops were pulled out of Tskhinvali and had been ordered to stop responding to Russian shelling, said Alexander Lomaia, secretary of his Security Council."

Yeah, Georgia looks completely like a pawn in the US attempts to start a world war. (/sarcasm)

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,400841,00.html
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Horsepoo!!!  (op)
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Aug 9, 2008, 07:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
"Georgia's President Mikhail Saakashvili proposed a cease-fire Saturday. As part of his proposal, Georgian troops were pulled out of Tskhinvali and had been ordered to stop responding to Russian shelling, said Alexander Lomaia, secretary of his Security Council."

Yeah, Georgia looks completely like a pawn in the US attempts to start a world war. (/sarcasm)

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,400841,00.html
Fox News...are you ****ing dumb, goMac? You're a lost cause. You've subscribed to the neocons. Most of you laughing at me have.

I hope you enlist into the US Army and go fight this war. You're the perfect neocon pawn.

The US is going down...if this turns to WW3 like I'm thinking it will turn into, the US will pay a high price...and after the war you'll either be slaves to Russia or the Neocons. Your country has an irreversible debt. You have nothing to get out of your debts. Your only industry is one of war. Your future is one of poverty. I feel sorry for you goMac, and everyone laughing at me now.
     
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Aug 9, 2008, 07:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
Fox News...are you ****ing dumb, goMac? You're a lost cause. You've subscribed to the neocons. Most of you laughing at me have.

I hope you enlist into the US Army and go fight this war. You're the perfect neocon pawn.

The US is going down...if this turns to WW3 like I'm thinking it will turn into, the US will pay a high price...and after the war you'll either be slaves to Russia or the Neocons. Your country has an irreversible debt. You have nothing to get out of your debts. Your only industry is one of war. Your future is one of poverty. I feel sorry for you goMac, and everyone laughing at me now.
Link to anything that substantiates your claims please? Again.

We're not laughing at you because you're a conspiracy theorist. They come, then once the facts are displayed proving them the delusional asshat trolls they are and they run out of arguments to defend themselves, they go. We're laughing at you because you're a blithering moron.
ebuddy
     
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Aug 9, 2008, 08:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
Fox News...are you ****ing dumb, goMac? You're a lost cause. You've subscribed to the neocons. Most of you laughing at me have.
Why the hell would it matter who I'm quoting it from? It's a factual statement, available from international sources.

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
I hope you enlist into the US Army and go fight this war. You're the perfect neocon pawn.
Neocon? Please... That's hilarious.
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Aug 9, 2008, 09:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
We're laughing at you because you're a blithering moron.
*quietly nods*

As much as Russia might like to control access to Caspian Sea oil, they still have to have someone to sell it TO, and global warfare tends to be bad for business. Things blow up, like pipelines & stuff. Very hard to move oil through blown-up pipelines, and sell it to people you're at war with. Not that I'm siding with them, but I don't think global warfare is in their calculus, whatever it is, here.

When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift.
     
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Aug 10, 2008, 01:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by chris v View Post
... I don't think global warfare is in their calculus, whatever it is, here.
I don't think many aggressors that have triggered larger conflicts thought that's where it would end up. While Russia may not be figuring on a global conflict, there's always a possibility that something larger could erupt.

If Russia makes a move to seize that US-backed pipeline (one that enables the bypassing of Russia and/or Iran as middlemen, I think the chances of a larger conflict would go up.

I guess it all depends on where Russia stops. If they move to take over Georgia, we'll have some decisions to make. Then again, The US hasn't really made the "we'll protect" statements regarding Georgia like we have Israel. But Georgia is an ally who has contributed a few thousand troops to our Iraq theater, and knowing that we'll need allies in the future, it's never a good thing to let an ally hang to dry when they need us most.
     
goMac
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Aug 10, 2008, 02:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by spacefreak View Post
I don't think many aggressors that have triggered larger conflicts thought that's where it would end up. While Russia may not be figuring on a global conflict, there's always a possibility that something larger could erupt.
Exactly. It's possible this could result in a larger conflict. But it's extremely doubtful this is a pre-meditated move influenced by the US. Most conflicts start fairly suddenly after a very quick downward spiral of events.
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Aug 10, 2008, 02:31 AM
 
We already had WWIII btw, for those of you not paying attention. We just didn't give it an official title.
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Russia 'invades' Georgia as South Ossetia descends towards war

Basically the USA has been busy buying up Georgia and turning it into a puppet state for the past 6 to 8 years (at least). Russia has been very patient during those times with only a few muscle flexes here and there. Three months ago they let us know very clearly and in no uncertain terms for example that they would indeed nuke the US if we didn't stop taking over Georgia and moving US troops into the area - Russian Foriegn Minister documented quote. The Bush regime wants this war tho - in a bad way - and when the neo-cons had Georgia shoot down two of Russia's planes and attack two Russian provinces long kept by Russian peace-keeping forces; Russia said enough is enough and is now busy taking out the trash so to speak.

The Georgia puppet leader Mikheil Saakashvili who has been in the pocket of the neocons clearly since 2002, is now making a very public plea to Washington for backup. The media probably will be underplaying this news story as much as possible until the US can come up with a good excuse for having so many American Special Forces there on the ground in Georgia or until they can get them out.

This conflict (along with the ultimate merger of the USA and Russia) has been a stated neocon goal for some years now according to state department document #7277 leaked over 20 years back.

Oh just wonderful...
( Last edited by Tesselator; Aug 10, 2008 at 02:57 AM. )
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goMac
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Aug 10, 2008, 02:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by Tesselator View Post
The Georgia puppet leader Dmitry Medvedev who has been in the pocket of the neocons clearly since 2002, is now making a very public plea to Washington for backup. The media probably will be underplaying this news story as much as possible until the US can come up with a good excuse for having so many American Special Forces there on the ground in Georgia or until they can get them out.
Medvedev has specifically said he wants no military support from outside countries, and he has ceased any offensive operations. It doesn't sound like anyone is planning to offer military aid anyway.

Originally Posted by Tesselator View Post
This conflict (along with the ultimate merger of the USA and Russia) has been a stated neocon goal for some years now according to state department document #7277 leaked over 20 years back.

Oh just wonderful...
Seriously? Why the hell would the Neocons decide to start a war by using a ridiculously tiny country as a pawn? Georgia is going to be crushed within a week if this keeps going, and as of now, I doubt we have anywhere we could even land our own troops.

Hell, we don't actually even have any spare troops. Where would we get this magical troops from to start a war with Russia? We don't even have enough troops in Iraq right now.

The US's largest level of involvement in this so far has been that we've been their weapons vendor, which isn't exactly surprising given that we're weapons suppliers for most western nations.

All this talk of US conspiracy is nuts because it would be the most dumb ass conspiracy ever.
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Aug 10, 2008, 09:17 AM
 
I get it. In your first thread under Horsepoo, you went into the dark recesses of conspiracy theory including our self-attack on 9/11. That didn't go so well. You essentially ended up uniting all sides against you in laughter so... what to do? Start another thread minus the irrelevant rantings of "I hope you go to war" etc...

Instead of keying a new thread, why don't you address the other responses to you in that thread, same exact topic? Of course, it was WWIII in that thread, but who's counting.
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chris v
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Aug 10, 2008, 09:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by spacefreak View Post
I guess it all depends on where Russia stops. If they move to take over Georgia, we'll have some decisions to make. Then again, The US hasn't really made the "we'll protect" statements regarding Georgia like we have Israel. But Georgia is an ally who has contributed a few thousand troops to our Iraq theater, and knowing that we'll need allies in the future, it's never a good thing to let an ally hang to dry when they need us most.
My guess would be a quiet funneling of arms, at best. Good for industry, keeps America out of the fray, honors our commitment to Georgia as an ally.

Of course, this sort of thing leads to blowback RE the Taliban, but that's never stopped us before.

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Aug 10, 2008, 12:51 PM
 
That's the thing about democracies - not everything is consistent, not everything is concerted. This happens when people act on each new situation as if it had never happened before, rather than establishing principles and making decisions based on them.

Of course, arm-chair historians and ideologues do try and recast events to make it look so, but it's possible to argue that dictators are more consistent than democracies in how events are conducted.
     
Helmling
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Aug 10, 2008, 02:38 PM
 
You know, I think this whole "The Cold War was WWIII" stuff is such nonsense. In fact, we're getting way too casual with the word "war" these days. We have the "War in Iraq," that hasn't been a war for years. We have the "War on Terror" which never was one. And this silly revisionism where the "Cold War" was an actual war deserving to be put on the shelf next to WWII and such. For that matter, WWI wasn't a "world" war.

Why do I feel this point needs to be made? Because what's happening on the ground in Georgia right now--two armies clashing and people being killed in the crossfire--THAT's a war.
     
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Aug 10, 2008, 04:17 PM
 
Here's the larger picture of what Russia is doing:
Russia's primary geopolitical concern is with its Near Abroad: the states that make up the FSU and Warsaw Pact. It views this as its sphere of influence, much like the US views South America, and integral to long-term Russian state stability and integrity. Its grand strategy is to reestablish, extend, and maintain influence and deference in the Near Abroad in order to use those states as a buffer against foreign incursion and foreign influence. EU and NATO encroachment is a direct threat to their grand strategy.

Georgia is a tactic in that strategy and a response to Kosovo independence (where Russian wishes were ignored). Kosovo independence slapped Russia in the face, telling it in no uncertain terms that its opinion didn't matter. A perceived-impotent Russia has no influence with FSU nations, particularly the Baltics, Ukraine, and others. Russia is using military action in Georgia -- forcibly taking infrastructure, territory, and potentially destabilizing the regime -- to make the FSU think hard about ignoring its wishes. This time, it's the West that looks impotent in all its institutions (EU, USA, NATO).

It is not just appearing that way, but in reality is: everyone's hands are tied. The Russians have the initiative and they know it.
- The USA's hands are tied because of Iran and Iraq. If it funnels arms to Georgia, the Russians funnel them to Iran and the Iranians turn them over to the Shia who then increase violence in Iraq against the Sunnis and US troops. The US needs Iraq stability more than it needs Georgia at the moment, so no Charlie Wilson's War 2 for now.
- The EU is tied because its economy is on the verge of a recession. Piss off Russia and its energy prices rise. It also has no real military capability -- not that they'd use it.
- NATO is tied because it has no mandate, political will, or military might to defend Georgia.

Georgia was, before this incursion, on an ok track to NATO membership -- not fast, but ok. NATO members are obligated to defend other members. However, the West has no desire to defend Georgia against a resurgent Russia. It gives some NATO members enough ammunition to deny NATO to Georgia and others. Left in the cold and facing an unpredictable Russian military response to disputes, these weaker nations will slowly defer to Russia's will in its sphere of influence.

edit: some of this mirrors Stratfor's analysis about a Russian response to Kosovo independence.
( Last edited by Cold Warrior; Aug 11, 2008 at 08:48 PM. )
     
spacefreak
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Aug 10, 2008, 04:36 PM
 
I think your analysis is solid, but there's a major difference. THe US has generally allowed democratic nations in South America the right of self-determination. It's not like we're rolling tanks into Venezuela because they are working on alliances with other nations whom we may or may not agree with. Same with Cuba, and even Mexico to a degree.

Furthermore, the US has made efforts to go through diplomatic channels before engaging in war-like operations. Despite the false portrayal by the left in the US regarding Iraq, the Bush Administration spent a good deal of time working Congress and the UN for authorizations, additional UN resolutions, even allowing a period of inspections. Russia... it's obvious that they don't play like that.
     
spacefreak
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Aug 10, 2008, 04:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
Hell, we don't actually even have any spare troops. Where would we get this magical troops from to start a war with Russia? We don't even have enough troops in Iraq right now.
We have plenty of troops in non-warzone locations all over the world. Japan, Korea, Germany. And we have a heck of a lot of air and sea power that is not anywhere near fully utilized.

If the US has to go to war somewhere else, there may be some logistical hurdles for the Pentagon, but we have plenty of might left in the tank should another showdown present itself.
     
subego
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Aug 10, 2008, 05:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by spacefreak View Post
Furthermore, the US has made efforts to go through diplomatic channels before engaging in war-like operations. Despite the false portrayal by the left in the US regarding Iraq, the Bush Administration spent a good deal of time working Congress and the UN for authorizations, additional UN resolutions, even allowing a period of inspections. Russia... it's obvious that they don't play like that.

I'd say it's half like that. Our diplomatic overtures were pretty weak. I'll agree that there is plenty of false portrayal going on, but I can quote chapter and verse on how the State Department pretty much got rolled by the Pentagon.

Note that I'm not placing an overly harsh judgement on that. If you look back to the situation at the time, the idea that Saddam had WMD and wouldn't give them up was pretty plausible. Considering these factors, that we entered into negotiations with the intent of only paying lip service to the idea of diplomacy wasn't necessarily the wrong course of action.
     
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Aug 10, 2008, 05:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
All this talk of US conspiracy is nuts because it would be the most dumb ass conspiracy ever.
Well, that makes it a lot more credible to me. Look at the fools who got us into Iraq. And spacefreak is behind it, too, another bad sign. Watch out for fake WMD stories from his imaginary contacts.
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subego
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Aug 10, 2008, 05:19 PM
 
CW... If you're on the line and don't see this as too much of a topic drift, I was wondering if you could answer a question for me.

I always saw the invasion of Iraq as a huge opportunity for the US and Russia to work together that was sadly missed. If you'll forgive my crassness for brevity's sake, would the idea of bribing Russia to get on board have had merit at the time (i.e. would Russia have been interested)?
     
chris v
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Aug 10, 2008, 08:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by spacefreak View Post
I think your analysis is solid, but there's a major difference. THe US has generally allowed democratic nations in South America the right of self-determination. It's not like we're rolling tanks into Venezuela because they are working on alliances with other nations whom we may or may not agree with. Same with Cuba, and even Mexico to a degree.
Central America, Mexico notwithstanding, is a different picture. Honduras, Guatemala, El Salvador, Nicaragua and Panama have all gone through what the Easter European countries go through with Russia, in one way or another, either through direct invasion, or by proxy. And we've done plenty of meddling in the politics of Chile (Allende?) Colombia, Argentina and Brazil -- just haven't taken it to them militarily, other than the Chile/CIA thing.

Cuba is the bizarre exception. I guess maybe our experience there at the turn of the century gave the military enough insight as to what they'd be getting into/bogged down in with a full-scale invasion, (The Spanish were just made fools of by the Cuban rebels -- too much jungle, not many roads, long supply lines, etc.) so we've settled for trying to starve them out. Boy, is that taking forever, or what? Die, already, Fidel. I wanna go caving in Cuba!

It's only been the last 20 years that we've left Central America well-enough alone, and that's mainly because there was no USSR for the govt.s/rebels there to align themselves with any more.

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Helmling
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Aug 10, 2008, 10:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by spacefreak View Post
I think your analysis is solid, but there's a major difference. THe US has generally allowed democratic nations in South America the right of self-determination. It's not like we're rolling tanks into Venezuela because they are working on alliances with other nations whom we may or may not agree with. Same with Cuba, and even Mexico to a degree.

Furthermore, the US has made efforts to go through diplomatic channels before engaging in war-like operations. Despite the false portrayal by the left in the US regarding Iraq, the Bush Administration spent a good deal of time working Congress and the UN for authorizations, additional UN resolutions, even allowing a period of inspections. Russia... it's obvious that they don't play like that.
You're pretty misinformed there on a number of fronts. The US has been deeply involved in political change throughout the Americas ever since we declared it our playground, and ours alone, with the Monroe Doctrine. You mention Mexico. The US has been heavily involved in controlling Mexico's politics with everything from wars to annex territory, occupying ports to influence internal politics and supporting military coups. The same is true throughout Latin America. Hell, do you know where the term "banana republic" comes from?

And, obviously, to cite Iraq as an example of international cooperation is ludicrous. Almost all of the "coalition of the willing" were bribed into their minimal participation in the invasion and occupation. Yes, the Bush administration put up a show of seeking out "authorizations" but when international consensus was not forthcoming they said "screw it all" and invaded anyway.
     
 
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