[gorgonzola]

Just for sake of clarity, please post all comments regarding the new design in this thread. I'm locking the old ones, just because many people are making the same points in many different threads, and I think some information is getting lost as a result. By keeping all the comments in one place, it should also be easier for the staff to keep track of what people don't like. Moreover, the forums' design will be switched over at some point, and I'm sure there will be comments about that too, so might as well have a place for that now.

Also, I posted this in one other thread, but I'm not sure people are clear on this, so I'm reposting it here.

If you do not like the portal layout:

There are two options.

(a) Set the "blog-style" news feed to your default. You'll never see the portal again (assuming you're on the same machine, anyway; otherwise you'll have to go to macnn.com/news). This page is still fixed width, but it has the article blurbs, the familiar layout, and the normal capitalization.

(b) Use legacy.macnn.com. This is just the old page.

You do not need to always go to the portal first and then to the blog-style page. You can set either one as your default. (That said, if you have suggestions for improving the portal page -- other than capitalization -- please let us know.)

If you find it difficult to get to the forums:

There are three ways of getting to the forums from the main page.

(a) In the top right corner, there is a "forumnn" button (it's the one all the way to the right). Clicking this takes you to the main forum index.

(b) The "forums" item in the horizontal navigation bar (on top of the news) provides links in its submenu to the major sections of the forums as well as the forum index.

(c) The "MacNN toolbox" box on the right side of the page (right below the search box) has the familiar ForumJump menu from the forums, and you can use this to go to a specific forum directly.

In addition, on the portal page, there are some headlines from the forums listed there, so you could also use those to get to the forums.

Complaints that have been heard and do not need to be made again:

1. Fixed width on the blog-style feed is annoying. (And increasing the font causes the portal page to scale poorly.)
2. Vertical text in the top right navigation doodad is annoying.
3. Lowercase text on the portal page is annoying. (This has already been changed back on the "blog-style" news page.)

There have been other complaints, but these are the three that stood out to me. If you have more specific gripes about the three things I listed above or non-obvious suggestions on how you think they should be changed, feel free to post, but otherwise, please don't. If you have gripes that are not listed above, also feel free to post them.

Thanks!

[Silky Voice of The Gorn]

Good show on the consolidation. I'd just like to add a few thoughts:
1) I'd say that the fixed width is annoying on all the pages, not just the Portal. This doesn't mean making the site endlessly liquid is preferable, mind you; look at my site (sig below), it is liquid, but within a min/max range that adjusts enough for user preference without making it look ridiculous.
2) You currently call the /news link four different things; "Blog Style", "News+Headlines", "News" and "Articles". This is needlessly confusing; just pick one (my vote is for "News", it's the simplest and clearest).
3) Submenu bloat: Under Contact, you have three links that all go to the same page. I realize each link chooses a different feedback category, but it seems like needless clutter to me. Just have one feedback link; people are smart enough to choose the category once there.

[tooki]

Thought #1: Here's a little thought: while the "vertical doodad" doesn't bother me, I think it might be better to rotate the text by 180 degrees, so that it reads top to bottom.

In German -- the designer's native tongue AFAIK -- book titles are printed on the spine so that in the shelf, text goes from bottom to top, as in the Doodad. But in English, we do the reverse: top to bottom. Considering it's an English-speaking forum, pretty much, and that therefor that's what we're used to, it might be helpful.


Thought #2: in body text, links need to be underlined ideally, but at minimum made much more obvious. Right now, text color is the only link differentiator, and the difference in contrast is a whopping 10% (switch your screen to grayscale mode to see the links vanish). On Windows, where display gamma tends to render colors darker than on a Mac, the links are even darker. On the PC I use at school, the dark teal links look like black and become essentially invisible. Links outside of body text, e.g. the portal, navbars, etc. does not need to be underlined, since they are obviously links.

Thought #3: it's all sooo pretty!

tooki

[Oisín]

Don't forget that there is also a very exhaustive thread about this in the Lounge, started by effgee himself.

Originally Posted by Tooki

In German -- the designer's native tongue AFAIK -- book titles are printed on the spine so that in the shelf, text goes from bottom to top, as in the Doodad. But in English, we do the reverse: top to bottom. Considering it's an English-speaking forum, pretty much, and that therefor that's what we're used to, it might be helpful.

I agree with this: though there is no 100% uniformity even among English books, top-to-bottom titles are by far the more common. Furthermore, glancing through my bookcase for empirical evidence, German, French, and Portuguese seem to be the only three languages that (more or less) consistently have bottom-to-top titles, while the eight remaining languages represented there all have top-to-bottom titles.

[besson3c]

Here are the comments I wrote to the other thread, for your convenience:


Just out of curiosity, did you guys conduct usability testing on the site prior to making it live? If not, next time you definitely need to. A site this large and important needs this attention - it's as simple as that. There are entire courses and studies of HCI, but most if not all agree that usability testing is completely vital to producing usual products. Don't underestimate the importance of this.


The design looks very attractive, the code looks sharp, but there are some usability issues for me:


1) I don't want to have to carefully target the section headers/buttons. I don't want to have to click, move the mouse down, and to the left or right like I currently have to. Why not use standard drop-down menus? Not only is this slower, but it's also confusing, as it isn't completely clear that the subsections are associated with the main section header.

2) Have you tested the site on a screen reader? Are these menus accessible to people with disabilities?

3) You can solve the problem of having to read text sideways by providing some sort of mouseover. I see your hrefs have title tags, but the middle two say "coming soon". This is probably something that you forgot to update before you went live? (This is also why usability testing is helpful)

[Rolling Bones]

I've never liked web site that act like operating systems. Such as drop down menus and stuffs. It takes me two or three attempts which pisses me off.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Rolling Bones

I've never liked web site that act like operating systems. Such as drop down menus and stuffs. It takes me two or three attempts which pisses me off.

Well, it is somewhat useful when there are several layers of information, and the designer wishes to conceal some of these subsections, while at the same time providing a means to get to these subsections with a single click.

Is there an alternative to do what I described?

[Silky Voice of The Gorn]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Well, it is somewhat useful when there are several layers of information, and the designer wishes to conceal some of these subsections, while at the same time providing a means to get to these subsections with a single click.

Is there an alternative to do what I described?

Yes, actually; but it requires abandoning the notion that *everything* needs to be one-click accessible. Case in point, my comment above regarding the feedback links. They provide 3 separate links to the same feedback page, when one would suffice. Further to that, each bar link is duplicated with the link right under it.

In fact, I would say that the site would be just fine without *any* of those secondary links. If someone is curious about rss feeds, they click the link, then see the options. Clean, simple. uncluttered.

[alexander]

I think I like the old design more; the new one has some things done better (the layout of the text, for one), but in general it's too gaudy and it looks like just another blog template. The old style had a much more professional feel to it.

[bitjumper]

Thank you, thank you for legacy.macnn.com.

The legacy design is much more useful for me - it is much more informative and easier to skim through. I hope it stays.

Erik

[Markovich]

Originally Posted by bitjumper

Thank you, thank you for legacy.macnn.com.

The legacy design is much more useful for me - it is much more informative and easier to skim through. I hope it stays.

Erik

Count me in on that sentiment as well. The old style was much more readible and easier to sift through. The new look is cluttered and not as functional. Looks too much like CNN.com after AOL took over. Lots of eye candy, not as much substance.

[Visnaut]

I much prefer the new layout, set to "headlines + news". The fixed width makes for much easier-to-read articles, much like a newspaper is divided into columns.

Also, the look is simple and classy, very easy on the eyes.

Can't wait to see the forums in the new look! You guys should provide the option of being able to choose the new skin as an option in the User CP in order to give interested users a chance to test and give feedback.

[Love Calm Quiet]

Please *KEEP* the legacy available.
I personally find it much more effective and easy to work with.
Yea! Options are the best: http://legacy.macnn.com

[Silky Voice of The Gorn]

Just for shitzingiggles, I did a side-by-side comparison of Legacy and "News + Headlines". I set the Legacy browser width to the same as the content width of N+H, and kept it at "normal" font size, which is the same as Legacy. The browser heights are the same as well.
Screenshot

In N+H's main column the second item in Afternoon Edition is completely cut off, and there's no left sidebar, so we get none of those headline items (which makes one wonder why it's called "+ Headlines" at all). The net result is that we get *less* news in a given browser size with the redesign.

Overall, I'd say the N+H column design is too loose and unstructured...Legacy's news items feel tighter and more precise. Setting the font to small helps marginally, but overall I would say the entry structure needs tightening. I think moving the "email|print" block inline with the end of the news pp, as with Legacy, would go a long way to fixing this; right now it seems to be swimming on its own, with no clear connection to the pp it refers to.

[Olorin]

I just want to say that the new design is horrible and that whoever came up to it should pray to god he never comes into contact with me in the real world or i'll eat him alive.

I just wanted to add that comment. In fact the new design is so horrible that I now come to the site about 1/3 as much as a used to, while I am increasingly using macrumors and etc.

[TheIceMan]

Wow, that was unpleasant.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Olorin

I just want to say that the new design is horrible and that whoever came up to it should pray to god he never comes into contact with me in the real world or i'll eat him alive.

I just wanted to add that comment. In fact the new design is so horrible that I now come to the site about 1/3 as much as a used to, while I am increasingly using macrumors and etc.

In the real world, nobody would take you seriously if you are not capable of providing *constructive* criticism, you would just be seen as a blowhard that cannot backup your assertions.

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by besson3c

In the real world, nobody would take you seriously if you are not capable of providing *constructive* criticism, you would just be seen as a blowhard that cannot backup your assertions.

Yeah, what he said. Plus, your sig is a misquote. It’s “Not all who wander are lost”.

[Olorin]

It's not supposed to be constructive criticism. I mean I was obviously being slightly humorous with my post; nevertheless, the new design is god awful.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Olorin

It's not supposed to be constructive criticism. I mean I was obviously being slightly humorous with my post; nevertheless, the new design is god awful.

Well, your humor (which I'm not sure I can see) may be hurtful to the designer. Has that ever occurred to you, or does he/she have this coming since you don't like the design?

Still waiting for you to provide substantive constructive criticism too.

[Stradlater]

How's the Forum redesign coming?

[Demonhood]

the forum redesign appears to be coming along nicely (from what i've seen). the change that has required this delay is already partially implemented.

[Olorin]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Well, your humor (which I'm not sure I can see) may be hurtful to the designer. Has that ever occurred to you, or does he/she have this coming since you don't like the design?

Still waiting for you to provide substantive constructive criticism too.

Ummmm... it's supposed to be hurtful to the designer because the designer sucks. I just said it in a somewhat humorous way in order to take the edge off his said suckage. lol

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Olorin

Ummmm... it's supposed to be hurtful to the designer because the designer sucks. I just said it in a somewhat humorous way in order to take the edge off his said suckage. lol

What do you do for a living? Whatever you do, you suck at it.

How does that feel?

[Stradlater]

Originally Posted by Olorin

Ummmm... it's supposed to be hurtful to the designer because the designer sucks. I just said it in a somewhat humorous way in order to take the edge off his said suckage. lol

Dude. You're a dick.

[Stradlater]

Originally Posted by besson3c

What do you do for a living? Whatever you do, you suck at it.

How does that feel?

Don't fuel the birthday candle.

[Olorin]

Originally Posted by besson3c

What do you do for a living? Whatever you do, you suck at it.

How does that feel?

DUDE!!! If i was the web page designer that created this page you would be right... I WOULD SUCK!

lol

[Tesseract]

Originally Posted by Olorin

DUDE!!! If i was the web page designer that created this page you would be right... I WOULD SUCK!

lol

The web page designer who created the new MacNN design happens to be a longtime member of these forums and he might even be reading your posts. You may want to be a bit more tactful.

(Before you ask: No, it's not me.)

[mrmister]

Well, the new design is unstructured, low on immediate information, generic-looking and simply pretty awful. If legacy.macnn.com didn't exist, I'd have dumped the sitre entirely.

Apologies to any designer's feelings, but it's the plain truth.

[osiris]

I didn't know the legacy site still existed. After comparing the two, the newer one looks more like a Windows site than Mac because of the largish menu bar and colors. Maybe if the bar was a few pixels skinnier, and used a blue closer to the legacy blue. Also, I think the legacy site's text formatting is easier to read because of the wider column width and text color.
Just my 2 cents worth.

[OAW]

Setting the default layout for www.ipodnn.com simply does not work reliably. I've set it to display in the "headlines + news" style repeatedly but the site insists on using the "portal style". Re-launching the browser has no effect. Cookies are enabled. Eventually after 5 or 10 minutes of trying the setting will eventually take. Can't determine any rhyme or reason for why it doesn't work consistently.

OAW

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Demonhood

the forum redesign appears to be coming along nicely (from what i've seen). the change that has required this delay is already partially implemented.

DH, is the forum redesign for real, or just a running gag. Just wondering, sometimes

-t

[Peter]

I find all the Leftlane News links incredibly irritating.

[volcano]

Originally Posted by mrmister

Well, the new design is unstructured, low on immediate information, generic-looking and simply pretty awful. If legacy.macnn.com didn't exist, I'd have dumped the sitre entirely.

Apologies to any designer's feelings, but it's the plain truth.

Agreed. There's nothing eye-catching about the new design - except the colors at the top of the page. There's no individuality... not even a logo to define MacNN from the rest of the 'NN sites. The site looks like one of those catch-all link sites that are created from old, captured domains (like www.express.com). Like MrMister stated, there are far too many links and not enough actual content on the main page. All the topic links become nauseating to look at, and a pain in the rear to sort through visually after a short period of time. The actual 'skeleton' of the site isn't bad, but the content and organization department must've taken a vacation (and/or fallen asleep) when it was their turn to help out.

[Demonhood]

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

DH, is the forum redesign for real, or just a running gag. Just wondering, sometimes

-t

it's real. it looks, from my perspective, about 80% done. it's a large undertaking. i'll see if i can help effgee out any.

[MacMan4000]

any chance we could get an update? did we hit a road block?

[TheIceMan]

Yeah, what's the status thus far?

[tooki]

The to-do list that I can view is over 20 items long still. It's coming, bit by bit.

tooki

[Athens]

The forums update kinda reminds me of Windows Vista

[TheIceMan]

Hehehe.

[tooki]

No kidding!

But at least I can tell you, with certainty, that when it comes, there will be a few new features (yes, more than just a paint job!) that you will like.

tooki

[Peter]

Originally Posted by tooki

No kidding!

But at least I can tell you, with certainty, that when it comes, there will be a few new features (yes, more than just a paint job!) that you will like.

tooki

...like?

[rickey939]

Originally Posted by tooki

The to-do list that I can view is over 20 items long still. It's coming, bit by bit.

tooki

Are we down to 19 items yet?

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by rickey939

Are we down to 19 items yet?

Still at 19.9 items.

-t

[TETENAL]

When is it coming?

[rickey939]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

When is it coming?

[Dakar]

When it does. Now finish your supper and go to bed.

[turtle777]

MacNN. Redesigning the forum since 1998.

-t

[TETENAL]

I thought it is coming during the downtime, but it's still not there.

[Peter]