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The Official MacNN COVID-19 Thread (Page 5)
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turtle777
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Mar 24, 2020, 10:51 PM
 
Or, you could just admit what you said days ago is wrong.

I’m not saying that other measures are not important.
You continue to put words in my mouth.

iI’m hammering home one point, and you keep pushing back again and again even thou you are wrong about that one point.

-t
     
OreoCookie
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Mar 24, 2020, 11:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
I think this should be taken with a grain of salt. Two reasons:
Why do you insist to speculate and spread FUD?
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
a) airborne vs. particle-spread is not a binary condition. It's a continuum.
Airborne and particle-spread are quite clearly distinct, and every reliable source I have seen stated that at present, Covid-19 is not airborne. That's why keeping a distance of about 2 meters will effectively exclude infections from spray.
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
There have been plenty of anecdotal evidence of people catching COVID-19 w/o direct contact.
Anecdotal evidence is not scientific evidence at all.
Nor should we (= non-experts) extrapolate from anecdotes we do not properly understand. Lack of evidence for a transmission route does not imply the virus is airborne.
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
b) The establishment in the US is still out to shame people into not wearing masks. This has risen to tragic-comical levels:
This is not an “establishment vs. the rest” issue. Science is science, facts don't care about your ideology or feelings. There is a severe shortage of protective equipment, so private citizens without a clear need should just not buy any. We still have lines here in Japan, where people buy face masks and yet, 50,000 came together in my city to watch the Olympic fire.

Can you find isolated incidences of people doing stupid things. Sure. But we should not pretend these are necessarily representative.
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
a) face masks don't work for the general public, but magically work in health care settings
b) The US is woefully underprepared, doesn't have enough face masks, but doesn't want to admit it, so it downplays the effectiveness of masks.
This is a dichotomy of your own creation. If you want to know why health care professionals (as well as other, select groups) should wear protective equipment, whereas the general population should not, please have a look at the information we have linked so far or do a search yourself. Or ask Glenn who is a health care professional.

Subscribing to FUD just makes things worse, not just for yourself, but for everyone.
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OreoCookie
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Mar 24, 2020, 11:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Or, you could just admit what you said days ago is wrong.
I don't see where I was wrong. For example,
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
You best protect from that by distancing and limiting travels. This is much more effective at slowing down the spread than wearing a mask.
then I am not saying face masks are ineffective. I'm saying for the general population they are much less effective than other measures we should be (and I am) taking. This is in line with all the health care organizations's guidelines as far as I am aware. And because health care professionals cannot avoid being in contact with persons that are at risk or even sick, they cannot implement the best measures. Their risk profile is different, so the suggested measures are different.
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reader50
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Mar 24, 2020, 11:27 PM
 
I interpret the public-vs-masks debate differently. They're asking the public not to do the TP thing - don't buy them all up, so no one else can get any.

Hospitals actually need surgical masks, and not just for COVID-19. For er, surgeries and stuff. There are a range of reasons why the medical profession needs them. If they can't get them due to panic buying, that endangers us all.

For the public, other measures do have a greater protective effect. That doesn't mean masks should not be worn. It bothers me when neighbors are not wearing masks. Most still aren't.

Just buy 3-5 instead of 300-500. You don't need a new one each day. Medical staff will observe all the other protective steps, so lacking a mask would become their primary vulnerability. Especially when their work requires them to be far less than 6ft (2m) away from sick patients.

Selfish mass buying has led to tragic results: (emphasis added)
The shortages have been devastating. Seamstresses have been asked to make masks for hospital workers. As one hospital’s equipment supply diminished, one anesthesiologist wore a plastic bag over his head during a procedure. Construction companies have been asked to donate existing supplies of respirator masks.
( Last edited by reader50; Mar 24, 2020 at 11:42 PM. )
     
OreoCookie
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Mar 25, 2020, 12:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
I interpret the public-vs-masks debate differently. They're asking the public not to do the TP thing - don't buy them all up, so no one else can get any.
I think these two points are connected: people are buying masks in bulk, which causes shortages. At the same time, in many places (including Japan, which has a mask-wearing culture independently of Covid-19) people do not follow basic protective measures, which are far more effective (like social distancing, the government forbidding big events). Proper education is key.
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reader50
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Mar 25, 2020, 04:02 PM
 
The Guardian has posted pictures comparing Trump's recent press conferences to those of other world leaders. The others practice distancing and/or masks.

Bonus video of Italian Mayors raging at lockdown scofflaws. Calling them idiots and threatening them.

     
turtle777
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Mar 25, 2020, 04:20 PM
 
Well, I bow to Oreo, who in his infinite wisdom doesn’t even have to show sources for his “facts”.
His opinion is fact.
I at least tried to source things, from credible sources, too. But shit, it’s just FUD opinions in Oreos never changing wisdom.

Done with this. Some people have slow adjustment reaction, that’s just the way it is.
And obviously, those people don’t realize it.

I shall coin the term “intellectual Covidiots.”

-t
     
andi*pandi
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Mar 25, 2020, 06:04 PM
 
People are sewing masks at home and making them out of handkerchiefs, because that is better than nothing and the hospitals are grateful.
     
OreoCookie
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Mar 25, 2020, 07:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Well, I bow to Oreo, who in his infinite wisdom doesn’t even have to show sources for his “facts”.
His opinion is fact.
I at least tried to source things, from credible sources, too. But shit, it’s just FUD opinions in Oreos never changing wisdom.
I did provide evidence from credible sources. I’ve linked to the John Hopkins University and the CDC. When Reader chimed in, he linked to The Guardian. (The John Hopkins University is the source for counting cases of the Corona virus.) If you want more information, I suggest you start there.
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subego
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Mar 25, 2020, 07:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
Just buy 3-5 instead of 300-500.
I imagine they’re generally sold in “disposable” quantities. Smallest bag I could find was 100.
     
reader50
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Mar 25, 2020, 08:11 PM
 
I've bought N95 particulate masks (non-surgical) from Amazon before, in 10-packs. For carpentry and other dirty work. I've seen singles as card-stock in hardware stores, and the local hardware store was selling singles last time I checked. With a 3- or 5- limit per person. (don't remember which it was)
     
ghporter
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Mar 25, 2020, 08:50 PM
 
Any mask is better than no mask when in an exposure situation. N95 masks that aren’t properly fitted will work about as well as a standard droplet precaution mask - your basic “surgical” mask - as long as it stays on your face.

But buying up N95 masks because “they’re better” isn’t a good tactic. There are severe to critical shortages of N95 masks for health care workers in most major metropolitan areas because people bought up tons of them, depleting supplies for people who really need them.

If you are a health care worker and literally “in the face of” a symptomatic, infected person, “droplet” precautions - exactly the same precautions for influenza - are appropriate. These precautions personal protective equipment (PPE) includes a gown, gloves, basic mask and eye protection. There’s a systematic method of donning these items, and another systematic method for doffing them; these techniques keep the wearer from being exposed to stuff on the

The N95 mask is appropriate for “airborne” precautions. These precautions are used for such things as active TB, measles, chicken pox, disseminated herpes zoster, and others. Here’s what CDC says about the various levels of contact precautions.

And while we’re at it, here’s more detail from CDC about the various levels of isolation precautions. Please note the language about what sort of patient issues the different kinds of precautions and different PPE are appropriate for.

With COVID, the only situation where airborne precautions are appropriate is when a very sick person is undergoing respirator treatment - starting or removing breathing tubes, or employing “open loop” respirators (which is a stupid idea anyway).

More and more evidence is emerging that for most people, it’s appropriate to wear NO mask. When going out for essential tasks like getting groceries, keep your distance from other people, wash your hands before and after your errand, and be attentive to things like coughing and touching your face. And if you are indeed in close proximity to an infected person, a simple mask, along with eye protection and good hand washing, will be more than enough to avoid exposure.

How likely is a random person you come across to be infected? That depends on where you are, and what you’re doing. Out in public using appropriate social distancing, there would probably be no way for you to even notice someone is infected unless they are very symptomatic. And at that, you might see the same behaviors in people who have a bad cold (bad for them because that reduces their resistance to anything else), be overwhelmed by local allergens (the oak trees in my area are being very active right now, and you don’t have to be allergic to have a reaction to all that pollen), and so on.

Now if you’re in New York City, that’s a very different story. That city is not built for social distancing. And the mass transit system is perfect for “sharing” all sorts of diseases, and so on. Still, a basic “surgical” mask, something to keep stuff out of your eyes, and good hand washing would be very effective - as long as you don’t have a lot of people coughing all over you at once.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
Waragainstsleep
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Mar 25, 2020, 09:06 PM
 
Bit of cloth and some gaffer tape should be fine.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Mar 25, 2020, 10:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
I've bought N95 particulate masks (non-surgical) from Amazon before, in 10-packs. For carpentry and other dirty work. I've seen singles as card-stock in hardware stores, and the local hardware store was selling singles last time I checked. With a 3- or 5- limit per person. (don't remember which it was)
Oh... I was just talking the surgical kind.
     
andi*pandi
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Mar 26, 2020, 04:34 AM
 
Good morning.
     
Thorzdad  (op)
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Mar 26, 2020, 08:47 AM
 
When I want your opinion,-
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Thorzdad  (op)
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Mar 26, 2020, 09:08 AM
 
Eerily beautiful drone video of downtown San Francisco.
I have a cousin who lives in the city, and this is exactly how he describes the scene there, right now.
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andi*pandi
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Mar 26, 2020, 09:40 AM
 
Transcription of a call yesterday:
Mom: It's so quiet out... I didn't see anyone on my way to the hairdresser!
me: Mom, what? You went to the hairdresser?
Mom: Yes, I really needed it.
me: Mom, you are 83 and just recovered from a mysterious respiratory illness... STAY THE **** HOME. Our schools are closed until May, everything is closed, stay home!
Her: Oh, but it isn't that bad here. Not everything is closed.
Me: That's because your FL governor is an idiot.
     
Laminar
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Mar 26, 2020, 10:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Good morning.
Why are you awake!?
     
subego
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Mar 26, 2020, 04:32 PM
 
The Mayor needed to shut down the bike trails, because apparently they were like a normal day yesterday.

What makes this notable is she’s so pissed about it she just blasted it to everybody’s phone with an emergency alert.
     
subego
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Mar 26, 2020, 04:54 PM
 
From yesterday.

     
Laminar
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Mar 26, 2020, 05:16 PM
 
Yikes, just thinking of all of the droplets of spittle out there in the air...
     
Waragainstsleep
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Mar 26, 2020, 05:41 PM
 
Are any of you starting to really worry yet? It looks like you're going to end up worse than Italy by some distance, and then scaled up for your higher population.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
reader50
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Mar 26, 2020, 06:01 PM
 
Here in CA, I'm not particularly worried. Our governor reacted early in the curve, with the first shelter-at-home order. And laid in extra hospital capacity. I'm hoping the curve flattens enough that our hospitals hold up.

But NY is bad already. TX and FL will get there. A lot of states that put business first are going to be hit hard. Brazil and Mexico will get ripped a new one. Bolsonaro is actively opposing mitigation measures by governors (or anyone else), and Mexico doesn't seem to be doing anything at all.
     
subego
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Mar 26, 2020, 06:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Are any of you starting to really worry yet?
My “we are so ****ed” list so far, in chronological order.

1) Everyone crowding the grocery store after the schools closed.
2) Lots of people out in groups for St. Patrick’s.
3) O’Hare airport herding all the arrivals from the final international flights together.
4) Everyone crowding the grocery stores again, after the lockdown announcement.
5) That photo.
     
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Mar 26, 2020, 07:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Why are you awake!?
Oh, just the usual 3am stomachache/insomnia combo. I tried to make the best of it by doing some coding while I was up. Ended up watching tv (fun tv not the news) and fell asleep around 5:30 to the dulcet sounds of Star Trek TNG.

I have not been eating gluten, but something is clearly being disagreeable, and makes itself known at 3am. Twitter and Facebook aren't helping.

I feel both anxious - and lucky to be working and paying my mortgage. I feel relatively safe - but worried about the world. The future uncertainty is a big one - kid school plans, graduations, college choice, are all on hold. 401k down 50k.

I know many have it much much worse.
     
Brien
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Mar 26, 2020, 11:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Are any of you starting to really worry yet? It looks like you're going to end up worse than Italy by some distance, and then scaled up for your higher population.
I’m worried if people keep ignoring the stay-at-home directives, the police/military will get involved, HARD.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Mar 27, 2020, 07:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
My “we are so ****ed” list so far, in chronological order.

1) Everyone crowding the grocery store after the schools closed.
2) Lots of people out in groups for St. Patrick’s.
3) O’Hare airport herding all the arrivals from the final international flights together.
4) Everyone crowding the grocery stores again, after the lockdown announcement.
5) That photo.


I heard a whole lot of dumb college kids went on spring break.
Also I hear that some bible belt states have no powers to stop the idiot pastors still holding church services and that one church had 3 dozen members test positive.


Boris has Corona now. I bet Trump will shit himself.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Thorzdad  (op)
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Mar 27, 2020, 08:03 AM
 
Here in Indiana...
• Officially, there have been 17 deaths. At this time last week, we had 7.
• The Indy 500 has been tentatively postponed until Aug. 23
• It's, unexpectedly, been really hard getting used to having my wife work at home all week
• One person has tested positive in my neighborhood. I live in the second-most-infected county in the state.
• There will be a taco truck in my neighborhood this evening. They have a plan for remote ordering and scheduled pick-up of your order, in order to minimize the chance of crowding. I haven't decided if we'll go for it, but tacos sound fantastic.
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andi*pandi
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Mar 27, 2020, 01:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by Brien View Post
I’m worried if people keep ignoring the stay-at-home directives, the police/military will get involved, HARD.
given a large portion of people* ignoring it are trumpites, i doubt trump is going to have the military enforce church closings etc.

*based on news reports, facebook comments from around the country still saying "it's just like the flu", missouri governor, and my mother's anecdotes of her FL trumpite neighbors having parties (but not inviting medical personnel who could be infected, so sorry)
     
Thorzdad  (op)
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Mar 27, 2020, 01:43 PM
 
When I want your opinion,-
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Waragainstsleep
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Mar 27, 2020, 06:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
• There will be a taco truck in my neighborhood this evening. They have a plan for remote ordering and scheduled pick-up of your order, in order to minimize the chance of crowding. I haven't decided if we'll go for it, but tacos sound fantastic.
I got a burger from the "Burger Bus" tonight. Its a big yellow American school bus converted to a burger truck. Really good burgers though.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Thorzdad  (op)
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Mar 27, 2020, 09:52 PM
 
We got both the al pastor and chorizo tacos. They were delicious. They came with this creamy green hot sauce that was extremely hot and really fantastic. I’d love to have a tub of that stuff (or, y’know, the recipe)
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Mar 28, 2020, 09:35 AM
 

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
ghporter
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Mar 28, 2020, 09:40 AM
 
Corporate decided that because a) lots of employees were freaked out about working with patients who might have been exposed and b) lots of patients are freaked out about being in a hospital right now, we’re all now wearing masks when in direct contact with patients.

I had a new patient yesterday; poor guy is in his early 60s and was slammed on his butt by influenza. Using standard droplet precautions - plastic gown, gloves, mask and eye protection - makes it challenging to help someone with taking a shower, especially when they have almost zero endurance.

I’ve taken to getting out of my scrubs in the garage before I come in the house. I work in rehab, and that sort of precaution was never something I even dreamed of. Now I’m having to think about what I might be bringing home...

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
Thorzdad  (op)
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Mar 28, 2020, 09:57 AM
 
Made cinnamon rolls from scratch for breakfast today.
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turtle777
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Mar 28, 2020, 12:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Corporate decided that because a) lots of employees were freaked out about working with patients who might have been exposed and b) lots of patients are freaked out about being in a hospital right now, we’re all now wearing masks when in direct contact with patients.
But but but, masks don't work unless worn in a hospital setting ?!?!?!

I'm glad people finally coming around.
If everyone wore masks (even just surgical) everywhere, plus the measures that are already recommended (hand washing, not touching your face), it would have a similar effect as shelter in place - it would slow down the spread significantly.

-t
     
reader50
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Mar 28, 2020, 12:18 PM
 
Glenn, about the masks. I have an unopened box or two of masks, restocked last year, long before COVID-19 showed up.

They're N95, but they're particulate masks with exhaust port, not surgical masks. 3M 8511 ten packs. They protect the wearer, but will not contain coughs to protect others. Definitely unsuitable for surgery.

I've been debating donating them to the local hospital. But said hospital hasn't solicited PPE from the public - we're not overloaded with patients yet in CA.

Are they worth donating, if they do start soliciting PPE?
     
turtle777
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Mar 28, 2020, 02:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
They're N95, but they're particulate masks with exhaust port, not surgical masks. 3M 8511 ten packs. They protect the wearer, but will not contain coughs to protect others. Definitely unsuitable for surgery.
Why do you think they don't contain coughs ?

Sure, I can see that someone with a very violent cough whose head is shaken violently might "unseat" the mask, but generally, N95 masks will protect both the wearer and the public.

-t
     
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Mar 28, 2020, 03:12 PM
 
3M 8511 Note the exhaust port on the front. It's a plastic flap, that seals on intake, but bends outward for exhaust. That makes them easier to breath out with, because exhaust is unrestricted. But if the wearer coughs, it is directed out and down. Masks without exhaust ports filter in both directions.

The 8511 is intended to protect the wearer from sawdust, paint droplets, or other dirty environments. It doesn't protect anyone nearby, like a surgical patient. Or any patient in bed, that the doctor leans over. Or just stands beside.
     
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Mar 29, 2020, 09:56 AM
 
We’re using basic “surgical-style” masks, and our small stock of N95s are held in reserve in case any patient winds up being diagnosed.

Our masking rules’ rationale is two-fold. First, it’s “doing something” for scared people, both patients and workers. Second, reducing ANY transmission of ANYTHING will help prevent sicker patients and sick workers.

There’s some really wonderful stuff going on in the general community regarding personal protective equipment. Harbor Freight is donating masks and gloves to any hospital with a 24 hour emergency room - these are the hottest of hot spots for any major disease. Lowes has joined in and is donating masks (simple, N95, etc.), gloves, eyewear, and whatever else is appropriate.

I’m cautiously optimistic about the mask program at work. We don’t allow ANY visitors at this time, but with masks in place, the sick folks coming from outside the San Antonio area are less likely to bring in the colds and other bugs that have made the rounds in their local areas. And this is the part of the year when folks bring in various bugs their kids bring home from school, and we often have a couple of people out through late April as these “school specials” work their way through the community. With school out, and people not congregating to spread any kind of bug, maybe we can avoid that part too.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
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Mar 29, 2020, 03:53 PM
 
I spoke with my cousin in San Francisco again. He tells me that the powers-that-be had a change of heart and the weed stores are open. He also said that both liquor stores and the weed stores are doing home delivery now.
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Mar 29, 2020, 06:23 PM
 
My brother in LA says he’s doing fine. He was doing plenty of work from home before, so he’s fine. His coworkers are similarly well employed (he’s in software). He complains about having to queue up at 6am just to get staples at the grocery, but otherwise he’s fine. That was good to hear.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
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Mar 29, 2020, 07:57 PM
 
UK government still isn't following the science. Telling everyone to isolate for 7 days from showing symptoms. The WHO says 14 days after symptoms end. Led by donkeys indeed.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Thorzdad  (op)
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Mar 30, 2020, 07:58 AM
 
On Friday, the NY Times front page included a visualization of how unemployment claims have escalated during the COVID-19 outbreak. As one who often creates infographics, I really applaud the simplicity and effectiveness of the graphic.
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subego
Clinically Insane
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Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
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Mar 30, 2020, 11:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
We got both the al pastor and chorizo tacos. They were delicious. They came with this creamy green hot sauce that was extremely hot and really fantastic. I’d love to have a tub of that stuff (or, y’know, the recipe)
     
Thorzdad  (op)
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Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Nobletucky
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Mar 30, 2020, 02:22 PM
 
It appears Trump has given-up on his Easter deadline and extended things to the end of April. He also signed the bailout deal, but not without issuing a signing statement saying he won't comply with the oversight parts of the bill, intended to keep a wary eye on where, and to whom, the corporate money goes.
When I want your opinion,-
I'll read it in your entrails
     
andi*pandi
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Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: inside 128, north of 90
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Mar 30, 2020, 02:25 PM
 
that last part is pretty tricky, Dick.
     
Thorzdad  (op)
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Mar 30, 2020, 05:42 PM
 
New gold toilets for Mar-a-Lago!
When I want your opinion,-
I'll read it in your entrails
     
reader50
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Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: California
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Mar 30, 2020, 10:39 PM
 
Visited the local hardware store today. First time in a couple weeks. And things have changed. There are two lines outside, and only 3 people are allowed in per building. You wait until someone exits before another is waved in. On the plus side, very short waits at the register.

At the register, I asked how the mask sales were going. Terrible - they have no stock. They'd been limiting sales to 5-per-person. Then 3. Then they were all gone. I forgot to ask about the toilet paper.
     
 
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