[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by MATTRESS:
It's also ironic considering how many of the Ivory Europeans oppose immigration in general to their own nations, but, whine and complain when we turn people away.

Open your gob when you have the slightest ****ing clue what you're talking about, won't you?

ghost_flash, is that you?

The ignorance is reminiscent.

[itai195]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
"Human Rights Violations".

Like I said, that's a fine reason. But it seems you have some skeletons in the closet, too. Or is it narrow-minded when Americans point out European faults, but not vice versa?

[MATTRESS]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Open your gob when you have the slightest ****ing clue what you're talking about, won't you?

ghost_flash, is that you?

The ignorance is reminiscent.

I believe I know very well how much opposition in Europe there is to anyone that isn't white. You Germans can't even tolerate the ones from the East, let alone, ones that are browner than you.

[Solomon Grundy]

Originally posted by MATTRESS:
Then maybe you ought to leave it.



There is always one greatest country in the world.

LOL! And my dad can beat up your dad!

[Logic]

Originally posted by itai195:
Like I said, that's a fine reason. But it seems you have some skeletons in the closet, too. Or is it narrow-minded when Americans point out European faults, but not vice versa?

What skeletons would that be?

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by itai195:
Like I said, that's a fine reason. But it seems you have some skeletons in the closet, too. Or is it narrow-minded when Americans point out European faults, but not vice versa?

Where?

[MATTRESS]

Originally posted by itai195:
Like I said, that's a fine reason. But it seems you have some skeletons in the closet, too. Or is it narrow-minded when Americans point out European faults, but not vice versa?

We usually call it hypocrisy. Europeans are the most racist beasts I have ever encountered in my travels. I ought to know, being that I am neither white nor European.

[Lysistrata]

He grew up as a Swedish Jew and converted to Islam. That's why Israel has banned him, and why he's getting all this flack now.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by MATTRESS:
I believe I know very well how much opposition in Europe there is to anyone that isn't white. You Germans can't even tolerate the ones from the East, let alone, ones that are browner than you.

I repeat: Open your gob when you have the slightest ****ing clue what you're talking about, ghost_flash.

[MATTRESS]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:


I repeat: Open your gob when you have the slightest ****ing clue what you're talking about, ghost_flash.

Who the hell is ghost_flash?

Of all the places I have been the Germany was the worst.

[Atomic Rooster]

Originally posted by MATTRESS:
Over my dead body.

Hmmmm...creepingflesh?

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by MATTRESS:
Who the hell is ghost_flash?

Of all the places I have been the Germany was the worst.

Okay. I'll bite.

Maybe you're not ghost_flash, or Y3a, or dcolton, or whoever else has been banned from the Pol Lounge for being a complete dick.

Maybe you're not white, either.

Now relate your experiences. What happened to you in Europe, specifically in Germany, that was so terrible.

When?

In what context?

Please, I'm interested.

[PacHead]

Originally posted by Lysistrata:
He grew up as a Swedish Jew and converted to Islam. That's why Israel has banned him, and why he's getting all this flack now.

Not true at all. Why the need to lie ? Israel banned him because of his financial backing of Hamas.

Unless you have evidence to the contrary of course, then you should present that, and not merely talk out of your butt.

[PacHead]

Originally posted by MATTRESS:
Who the hell is ghost_flash?

Of all the places I have been the Germany was the worst.

It's a typical tactic from their side: Accuse you of being somebody else who was here before etc.

Some idiots have even claimed I was Zimphire. Lies, lies & more lies, seems to be the tactic for the day.

[dcolton]

Originally posted by Logic:
I know. You are the "leaders of the free world" and everything

Like someone said: "Americans live in America, while Europeans live in the world" or something like that. You guys prove that again and again.......

WTF do you want us to do. We don't live on a continent where a brisk wind can blow a passport across international borders. We aren't part of some European Union...we are the United States, who was recently attacked by a group of muslims. We are currently at war with killers, who claim this war to be a holy war...Muslims versus the world.

But, it is the silence of the Muslim world that closes US borders. When a group of people whisper their discontent with terrorists and scream how they understand the 'root cause', who would you trust? When dancing in the streets is common place after a terror attack, who would you trust?

Perhaps, instead of criticizing the US for being cautious, some people should look in their own backyard and UNDERSTAND THE ROOT CAUSE of closing US borders to suspiciously innocent people.

God Bless America. United, we will eliminate the enemy and bring peace and stability back to the world. Divided, we are as ineffective as the UN.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by PacHead:
It's a typical tactic from their side: Accuse you of being somebody else who was here before etc.

It's funny that you speak of "typical tactic" replying to a post whose second line is the "typical tactic" of blankly stating "well your country is the worst of all" to distract from the subject at hand.

We'll see if MATTRESS, whoever he may be, follows through and relates something of interest.

[itai195]

Originally posted by Logic:
What skeletons would that be?

I'll provide a short recap: You implied that Americans were intolerant and inferior to Europeans for exercising their right to control their borders, while apparently turning a blind eye to the fairly obvious prejudice and intolerance that exists in Europe. Maybe 'skeleton in the closet' was a bad phrase to use, though.

[PacHead]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
It's funny that you speak of "typical tactic" replying to a post whose second line is the "typical tactic" of blankly stating "well your country is the worst of all" to distract from the subject at hand.

We'll see if MATTRESS, whoever he may be, follows through and relates something of interest.

And just what was the subject at hand ? That the USA is terrible ?

The subject at hand is that this extremist islamist is an undesirable in the USA, and there are valid reasons for this. Any USA bashing is distracting from the main issue, and I see it as yet another attempt to protect evil people.

[Logic]

Originally posted by itai195:

No really, I want to know. What skeletons are you talking about?

[Solomon Grundy]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Okay. I'll bite.

Maybe you're not ghost_flash, or Y3a, or dcolton, or whoever else has been banned from the Pol Lounge for being a complete dick.

Maybe you're not white, either.

Now relate your experiences. What happened to you in Europe, specifically in Germany, that was so terrible.

When?

In what context?

Please, I'm interested.

If his attitude in here reflects how he acts in real life I could see why people would treat him poorly. Nobody like a pompous ass no matter which country you are in.

[itai195]

Originally posted by Logic:
No really, I want to know. What skeletons are you talking about?

Edited and added to my post

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by itai195:

No, really - do tell.

This isn't some lame smear-attempt by mentioning Hitler or something, is it?

Because the Third Reich is truly anything BUT a skeleton in the closet. It is SO out in the open and so discussed daily in Germany, both in cultural and in political contexts, that it's difficult to imaging a more public subject anywhere, in any other country.

So what exactly do you mean?

Edit: Ah, read your edited post.

Glad to see that was NOT what you meant.

Good

[Logic]

Originally posted by itai195:
Edited and added to my post

But still didn't provide an example of what you are talking about. Could you prove examples?

[MATTRESS]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Okay. I'll bite.

Maybe you're not ghost_flash, or Y3a, or dcolton, or whoever else has been banned from the Pol Lounge for being a complete dick.

Maybe you're not white, either.

Now relate your experiences. What happened to you in Europe, specifically in Germany, that was so terrible.

When?

In what context?

Please, I'm interested.

Specifically, a trip to Berlin in 2002 was the most horrible I've ever been on. I thought that racism in the UK could be bad but it was easily the worst in Berlin and other places I went in Germany over the period of about 10 days. Upon arrival I was told that my hotel room wasn't available despite the fact that the hotel was 30% vacant (I was told it was overbooked and there weren't any rooms there). Riding the S-Bahn was a nightmare. People slowly got up and moved away as I got on. Hearing the words "schei� ausl�nder" muttered under someone's breath in different parts of Berlin. Being passed over in line while buying something at a store. Slower service in a restaurant. Unfriendly taxi drivers. Bellhops that "accidentally" dropped luggage. I've been to 22 different countries and I know the difference between racist attitudes and simple indifference to tourists or foreigners. Given the amount of attention in the news here to racism in Germany I know that I was hardly imagining any of this considering that it used to be commonplace here many decades ago.

One has to be of a racial minority to see these things. Otherwise, one is blind to them.

In short, one can just feel the seething resentment and general attitude of a racist population towards another racial group. Considering how racist Germans are in general toward the Turkish population its no wonder Turkey is having issues in joining the EU.

[dcolton]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Okay. I'll bite.

Maybe you're not ghost_flash, or Y3a, or dcolton, or whoever else has been banned from the Pol Lounge for being a complete dick.

Maybe you're not white, either.

Now relate your experiences. What happened to you in Europe, specifically in Germany, that was so terrible.

When?

In what context?

Please, I'm interested.

I'm not banned, dick. I will never disguise my nick to express my opinion.

Oddly enough, I do remember lobbying to get you off the ban list not too long ago.

[itai195]

Originally posted by Logic:
But still didn't provide an example of what you are talking about. Could you prove examples?

Read the articles I linked to earlier. Here are a few excerpts:

Gerhard, the landlord serving him his wine, joined in eagerly. "This is Europe, and we're in danger of losing our identity with all these people from Turkey and Africa. We Christians are losing our faith while the Muslims are getting more fundamentalist."

Slovenia, the poster boy of post-Yugoslav success, is integrated into the European Union and NATO as a stable and prosperous democracy. But the uglier, intolerant aspect is that Ljubljana is the sole E.U. capital city without a mosque. For decades, Slovene Catholics have thwarted attempts by the country's 50,000-strong Muslim community to build a mosque

Deliberately recalling the "clash of civilizations" of 300 years ago, the liberal Viennese newsweekly Profil this week headlined its editorial "The Turks at the Gates of Vienna," contending that Turkey's accession was "not so much a risk as a danger."

The outgoing Dutch European commissioner, Frits Bolkestein, delivered his parting shot a fortnight ago by warning of the "Islamisation of Europe" should Turkey join the union. "The relief of Vienna in 1683 will have been in vain," he declared. The outgoing Austrian commissioner, Franz Fischler, stirred up more strong feeling by asserting that broad anti-Turkish public opinion across the E.U. should not be ignored. "The E.U. can't just be a construct of diplomats."

Val�ry Giscard d'Estaing, the architect of the new European constitution, which some claim is specifically designed to keep Turkey out, said last year that Turkish membership would signal "the end of the E.U." Turkey was "not a European country." It had "a different culture, a different approach, and a different way of life."

In response to Spheric: I'm not trying to turn this into any lame anti-European tirade. But I am tired of the repeated attempts on this forum to portray Europeans as enlightened, superior, etc in comparison to Americans.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by realitybath:
ok, i read that, and then a couple of other things off his mountain of light site and well, i still think that its legitimate that he is being turned back.

I mean, yes, he makes good points in that entry, and is articulate in the audio file that was linked, but it still strikes me that he has had a change of heart at 9/11. And is 3 years long enough for the American public to accept him. I don't think so, unless somebody can point to where he has actually addressed the things that people have quoted him as saying (not just headlines and headers as he seems to claim).

Before you jump at me here's what gets to me...

he may be genuine, but those entries of his don't don't really show it to me. Why? Here's my qualms :

[snip]

I'm not attempting to dismiss your post, I assure you I've read it all but for now I'm only going to comment on one aspect.

Originally posted by realitybath:
That is an archaic argument! This is the sort of literalist idealism that convinces regular folk that religious people are nuts because they take witchhunt ideals and transfer them to the modern age. Its like he doesn't want to address what he said(essentially tacit approval) except through a medieval technicality.

I disagree with your assertion that it was an archaic argument. He based his opinion strictly on the rules of the Shari'ah law. The Shari'ah law is timeless and is an important part of the structure of Islam. If the Shar'iah law does dictate that such action is permitted in Islam against blasphemers like Rushdie, then Yusuf was correct in highlighting it.

The thing to bear in mind about converts to any religion, not just Islam is that 1. They are (obviously) new to the religion and are still brushing up on little bits here and there. 2. In many cases they tend to take more of a fundamentalist (not the negative understanding of the term 'fundamentalist' that the media have wrongly applied to radical Islamists) approach to the religion. Thus they tend to have a 'perfectionist' attitude to how Islam should be followed.

Yusuf admits himself that he was a bit unsure as to how to deal with the media's criticism. I believe him. It's a bit of a shame that what was obviously a mistake (which he admitted) has come back to haunt him now. It's largely due to the circumstances Muslims are in at the moment with all this radical crap flying around. Perhaps if the current state of affairs surrounding the Muslim people was not as it is today, he would never have been rejected entry to the US.

I still believe the US has turned away a perfectly moderate Muslim, but can somewhat understand the government's anxiety about national security.

[PacHead]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:



I still believe the US has turned away a perfectly moderate Muslim, but can somewhat understand the government's anxiety about national security. [/B]

If a perfectly moderate muslim supports fatwahs and finances hamas, then we should expell every single muslim and ban islam.

[Logic]

Originally posted by itai195:
Read the articles I linked to earlier. Here are a few excerpts:

In response to Spheric: I'm not trying to turn this into any lame anti-European tirade. But I am tired of the repeated attempts on this forum to portray Europeans as enlightened, superior, etc in comparison to Americans.

Of course you will find bigots in a "nation" of 450-500 million people. But I thank you for highlighting the Christian bigotry prevalent in this world(not only Europe). Fortunately they aren't the ones who will decide Turkey's fate.

[realitybath]

Originally posted by dcolton:
suspiciously innocent people.

your weird man. I haven't been here for a week or two, and now the first post i see of yours has that phrase you were using ad nauseum when i was last here.

def:
1. People who play innocent, but use it to disguise malicious intent.
(i assume this is how you want to use it)
OR, equally valid
2. People who are innocent, and aren't liked(because of that fact)by people who are malicious/strictly machiavellian.
(this one has Orwellian connotations that I'd assume you don't want to imply)
OR, equally valid
3. Random people who are being constantly prejudged by a paranoid and delusional authority/authority figure.
(can be related to #2 and I'd also assume you don't want to utilize)

did you make that expression up yourself?

[dcolton]

Originally posted by realitybath:


did you make that expression up yourself?

Why do you think I keep on using it?

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by MATTRESS:
Specifically, a trip to Berlin in 2002 was the most horrible I've ever been on. I thought that racism in the UK could be bad but it was easily the worst in Berlin and other places I went in Germany over the period of about 10 days. Upon arrival I was told that my hotel room wasn't available despite the fact that the hotel was 30% vacant (I was told it was overbooked and there weren't any rooms there). Riding the S-Bahn was a nightmare. People slowly got up and moved away as I got on. Hearing the words "schei� ausl�nder" muttered under someone's breath in different parts of Berlin. Being passed over in line while buying something at a store. Slower service in a restaurant. Unfriendly taxi drivers. Bellhops that "accidentally" dropped luggage. I've been to 22 different countries and I know the difference between racist attitudes and simple indifference to tourists or foreigners. Given the amount of attention in the news here to racism in Germany I know that I was hardly imagining any of this considering that it used to be commonplace here many decades ago.

One has to be of a racial minority to see these things. Otherwise, one is blind to them.

In short, one can just feel the seething resentment and general attitude of a racist population towards another racial group. Considering how racist Germans are in general toward the Turkish population its no wonder Turkey is having issues in joining the EU.

There's nothing, really, that I can say.

[realitybath]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:


I'm not attempting to dismiss your post, I assure you I've read it all but for now I'm only going to comment on one aspect.



I disagree with your assertion that it was an archaic argument. He based his opinion strictly on the rules of the Shari'ah law. The Shari'ah law is timeless and is an important part of the structure of Islam. If the Shar'iah law does dictate that such action is permitted in Islam against blasphemers like Rushdie, then Yusuf was correct in highlighting it.

The thing to bear in mind about converts to any religion, not just Islam is that 1. They are (obviously) new to the religion and are still brushing up on little bits here and there. 2. In many cases they tend to take more of a fundamentalist (not the negative understanding of the term 'fundamentalist' that the media have wrongly applied to radical Islamists) approach to the religion. Thus they tend to have a 'perfectionist' attitude to how Islam should be followed.

Yusuf admits himself that he was a bit unsure as to how to deal with the media's criticism. I believe him. It's a bit of a shame that what was obviously a mistake (which he admitted) has come back to haunt him now. It's largely due to the circumstances Muslims are in at the moment with all this radical crap flying around. Perhaps if the current state of affairs surrounding the Muslim people was not as it is today, he would never have been rejected entry to the US.

I still believe the US has turned away a perfectly moderate Muslim, but can somewhat understand the government's anxiety about national security. [/B]

good/interesting response, thank you

I agree with your points and caveats, and understand where you are coming from.

I do still disagree about what i called an 'archaic argument' though. And the following is the crux of my stance on that:
Shari'ah law may have elements of timelessness, but neither it nor its definition is necessarily foolproof!

1. To be 'fully' timeless, it would have to have a complete and consistent body of logic, which has been proven mathematically to be impossible. (the caveat being that if god exists and the only god is allah, then it WILL meet this requirement through force of omnipotence - with any doubt on this condition, it can only be 'partially' timeless).
2. The application of 'blasphemy' charges, and the def./interpretation of blasphemy are EXTREMELY important in Yud'uf Islams argument. By relinquishing this to a human interpreter/authoritative cleric, and not delving into a requisite explanation of why it has enacted, Yud'uf Islam can not know if it is 'legal'(see his explanations on the role of legality in blasphemy charges) and therefore make a decision according to what a Muslim 'should' do.

Sorry if i'm making religious mistakes, but that's the core of why i think yudu'f's mea culpa is logically weak and not necassarily the sign of a good muslim(yet).

This ties into what you say about him being new/learning.
Yes! I agree with you, and that's why I think that he is still in the process and not knowledgable enough still to make important comments on the matter. I don't think, however that he should shutup, its just that i will judge his comments through that(and any relevant new info) context.

Though really, I do think his actions will speak louder than words, and if he keeps going the way he appears to be going, I think he will have learned from his mistakes quite well. In addition, if he handles this situation well, it might be a step forward for him.

again, interesting post, thanks.

[realitybath]

Originally posted by dcolton:
Why do you think I keep on using it?

yeah, but don't you see a problem when it has a combination of defintions that cloud your intent?

Or is that your intent?

@MATTRESS: that's pretty crappy

[dcolton]

Originally posted by realitybath:
yeah, but don't you see a problem when it has a combination of defintions that cloud your intent?

Or is that your intent?

Sure. Why not.

[realitybath]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
That's odd, because mainstream media in Germany is playing it as a vital question of human rights, hinged on the Turkish law reform that was just recently averted.

There is nothing "petty" or "inane" about human rights violations, and a body of laws reflecting their regular abuse. Nor is there anything "racist" or "culturally snobistic" about using them as criteria for closely-knit economic and political ties.

It *is* a question of "living standards", I suppose, if you want to be facetious about it.

-s*

I had no intent to gloss over human rights violations/laws and very real drawbacks to merger, as i was thinking along those lines in my second sentence.

What I was saying is that the issues of racism and elitism do play roles in opinions in europe. And it is a common tool to mask said reasoning using real issues such as you/I mentioned. Not that I know that this mentality is rife in Europe, but I'm convinced that it is there.

I don't know if I'll get slammed for this, but i actually support moderately restricted long term migration levels (emigration/immigration) between ALL countries (for green and social friction issues) and am sad to see that people get automatically labelled racists if they bring up the subject in situations like this (euro/US/etc.) where it is an important issue.

---sorry for so many posts in a row... don't know if this is frowned upon here.

@dcolton... weak answer, even comedy-wise. I'll be predjudiced that you don't have any serious points in future posts, and use terms you don't understand.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by realitybath:
good/interesting response, thank you

Oh good, I'm glad there is something of use to someone amongst all the racist/bigoted BS filling this thread.

Originally posted by realitybath:
I agree with your points and caveats, and understand where you are coming from.

I do still disagree about what i called an 'archaic argument' though. And the following is the crux of my stance on that:
Shari'ah law may have elements of timelessness, but neither it nor its definition is necessarily foolproof!

1. To be 'fully' timeless, it would have to have a complete and consistent body of logic, which has been proven mathematically to be impossible. (the caveat being that if god exists and the only god is allah, then it WILL meet this requirement through force of omnipotence - with any doubt on this condition, it can only be 'partially' timeless).
2. The application of 'blasphemy' charges, and the def./interpretation of blasphemy are EXTREMELY important in Yud'uf Islams argument. By relinquishing this to a human interpreter/authoritative cleric, and not delving into a requisite explanation of why it has enacted, Yud'uf Islam can not know if it is 'legal'(see his explanations on the role of legality in blasphemy charges) and therefore make a decision according to what a Muslim 'should' do.

Sorry if i'm making religious mistakes, but that's the core of why i think yudu'f's mea culpa is logically weak and not necassarily the sign of a good muslim(yet).

This ties into what you say about him being new/learning.
Yes! I agree with you, and that's why I think that he is still in the process and not knowledgable enough still to make important comments on the matter. I don't think, however that he should shutup, its just that i will judge his comments through that(and any relevant new info) context.

Though really, I do think his actions will speak louder than words, and if he keeps going the way he appears to be going, I think he will have learned from his mistakes quite well. In addition, if he handles this situation well, it might be a step forward for him.

again, interesting post, thanks.

Your point about the timelessness of Shari'ah being false is, quite simply, your opinion. Followers of the Islamic religion agree that the Shari'ah is timeless and flawless. It's quite an integral part of the religion.

There is no need to relinquish the definition/application of the laws regarding blasphemy to a scholar. The rules surrounding the consequences for blasphemy are clearly set out in the Qu'ran. So, as long as those who made the fatwa did so in strict accordance with Islamic law, they aren't at fault (neither is Yusuf). I haven't really looked at the detail surrounding the fatwa release on Rushdie to decide whether it was in accordance with the law (it probably wasn't though because Islam teaches that generally Muslims also have to abide by the law of the land in which they reside, and I don't think assassinations like that are legal in most countries) so the latter is all theoretical.

[dcolton]

Originally posted by realitybath:
@dcolton... weak answer, even comedy-wise. I'll be predjudiced that you don't have any serious points in future posts, and use terms you don't understand.

Weak answer. Seemed to be a loaded question to me!

Here is another example of a suspiciously innocent person.

A white male in a parked car, talking to a black man through his passenger side window, in the middle of the ghetto. The white person is suspiciously innocent.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by realitybath:
What I was saying is that the issues of racism and elitism do play roles in opinions in europe. And it is a common tool to mask said reasoning using real issues such as you/I mentioned. Not that I know that this mentality is rife in Europe, but I'm convinced that it is there.

Of course it is there.

But to consider it the prevalent or dominant attitude is like assuming from experiences made on this forum that Americans are predominantly ignorant, xenophobic, and anti-Muslim racists.

It is a common tool to mask, or indeed rally, these sentiments with legitimate concerns such as "patriotism" or "security", but their presence is obvious.

As I said above, my faith in humanity is great enough to assume that it's not the dominant sentiment in the US, though this forum might lead one to believe otherwise, and it pains me that the impression MATTRESS got of Europe, and Germany specifically, is a similar one.

I have, of course, met racists here. I've met racists just about everywhere I've been in the world (and I've been a lot of places). The only openly racist guy I ever met on the job was gone immediately after I tipped off management and told them why I was unable to work with him (there was actually a fairly amusing episode that led up to my decision, but that's for another thread).

Originally posted by realitybath:
I don't know if I'll get slammed for this, but i actually support moderately restricted long term migration levels (emigration/immigration) between ALL countries (for green and social friction issues) and am sad to see that people get automatically labelled racists if they bring up the subject in situations like this (euro/US/etc.) where it is an important issue.

This is why I find it mildly annoying that European immigration policies and the Turkish failure to meet minimal requirements of the EU were brought up at all - as if they had anything to do with Yusuf Islam's denied entry, or were in any way comparable!

-s*

[swrate]

Banned?
yes, prejudiced people,
I read "fatwas" on this board all the time:
Extremists here at McNN, wishing for bombs.
How can you, people, be so blind about what is happening in your own country? Manipulated by the bushads. Poor, poor America.

tea anyone?
Cat Stevens, Yussuf Islam, extremist islamist :o
what can I say about you neo-cons?

Its a new trend not to let people in the US, so well why should other countries let neo-cons around then? Aren't they just as dangerous?

BOT, banned?
I have heard other stories similar. Here is for example the case of Tarik Ramadan who was denied a visa at the last moment, even though he was hired by Notre dame, Indiana University.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/ar...at_notre_dame/

I thought while reading this thread: poor poor America, poor US, I hope "she" gets over it.
Fatwas...
Doesn't the Pentagon throw sort of "fatwas" when it bombs Najaf, Fallujah, and against the main sheiks owning the land, and doesn't Sharon throw fatwas against his opponents?
In Us, you are simply with us or against us, if you are against us, you are a terrorist.Poor us!



Fatwas.... bushes fatwa initiative/intervention

How many died during the last 4 years?
How many are bombed or beheaded? (consequence of this shock&incapacity strike)
How many children are traumatized?
Oh yes, I forgot, their lives are less worthy, whether doctors working for the red crescent or students engaging in the resistance.
"It's OK they can go through dajjal, we dont mind screwing their whole nation up, as long as we get what we want".

Addenda: those personalities are tagged radicals, yet condemn terrorism....
There is a much higher percentage of denials towards Muslims then any other religion.
So sure, logic, I can tag quite a few here of NEO-CONS, you guys even wonder why you are unwanted in arabic countries!
**Slipping down**

[MATTRESS]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:


I have, of course, met racists here. I've met racists just about everywhere I've been in the world (and I've been a lot of places). The only openly racist guy I ever met on the job was gone immediately after I tipped off management and told them why I was unable to work with him (there was actually a fairly amusing episode that led up to my decision, but that's for another thread).
This is why I find it mildly annoying that European immigration policies and the Turkish failure to meet minimal requirements of the EU were brought up at all - as if they had anything to do with Yusuf Islam's denied entry, or were in any way comparable!

-s*

The problem, Spheric, is that by their very nature European countries are defined by one common language, one common ethnic group, one common culture. Look at the names of each country. Germany. Sweden. Italy. England. Ireland. France. Each name in and of itself suggests that one group of people is naturally better than those who are not of that group. Thus, the culture itself defines and disguises racism as an acceptable part of every day life.

Perhaps when the time comes that national borders, boundaries, culture, and languages blend into one common nation like the United States then the severe problems that minorities face in each European country might be solved.

The United States is by no means perfect, but, the melting pot mentality has allowed us for the most part to be far more tolerant than most of the "educated" European nations. There are still pockets of highly concentrated whites that frown upon mixed marriages or those who aren't white and I tend to avoid such places. Thankfully those places tend to be in the backwoods uneducated clusters of what we call rednecks (who, by the way, are found in other places aside from the South).

For what it's worth I have encountered less racism in my travels elsewhere than in Europe. Which in itself is quite disturbing as one should expect the Western European nations to be more tolerant considering the long history of exposure to neighboring cultures. It seems to me that the artificial barriers of national identity, ethnic identity, and language go a long way towards alienating those who are not natives of those groups.

And, for what it's worth, I feel that any country has the right to deny entry to whomever isn't acceptable. It just disturbs me that Europeans criticize us when the same barriers exist in Europe as well.

[d0ct0rteeth]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=2272456260

[PBG4 User]

I read in one of the many news articles on this event that Cat Stevens was US born. If so, wouldn't it be wrong to not allow him into the US? Unless he gave up his US citizenship I guess.

[PacHead]

Originally posted by PBG4 User:
I read in one of the many news articles on this event that Cat Stevens was US born. If so, wouldn't it be wrong to not allow him into the US? Unless he gave up his US citizenship I guess.

You must have been watching C-BS or something, because he was born in the UK.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by MATTRESS:
The problem, Spheric, is that by their very nature European countries are defined by one common language, one common ethnic group, one common culture. Look at the names of each country. Germany. Sweden. Italy. England. Ireland. France. Each name in and of itself suggests that one group of people is naturally better than those who are not of that group. Thus, the culture itself defines and disguises racism as an acceptable part of every day life.

Please come back when you have obtained an absolute minimum of education about the subject you lecture on.

You obviously have absolutely not the slightest idea of European history and nation-building.

Of the fact that, for example, "Germany" as a nation did not even exist until 1871. Of the fact that Belgium has three official languages. Of the fact that French and German Alsatians have FAR more in common culturally (including language) than a German Alsatian and a Bavarian. Of the fact that up until a few generations ago, Buckingham Palace spoke German. Of the fact that "Germany", like just about every other present-day European nation, encompasses a range of different regional cultures/former states, not few of whom were heavily warring factions up until quite recently - Northern Ireland and Yugoslavia spring to mind as fairly present-day continuations.

In short, you appear to think that arbitrarily naming something defines it.

No wonder you believe in Homeland "Security".

-s*

[misc]

"Yusuf Islam speaks about his recent exclusion from the US"
Posted on both Catstevens.com and YusufIslam.org.uk.

"First, I thank God for relieving me of my ordeal and delivering me home safe; also, thanks to all those who prayed for me and supported me through this whole dark episode, from eminent politicians, the press and religious leaders, to plain, everyday people. Never would I believe that such a thing could happen in the �land of the free� - unfortunately, it did. But it�s warming to have such a wave of sympathy from my friends and my worldwide well-wishers.

After the experience of my dramatic deportation from the U.S.A. it feels like I am on a different planet from the one I was on a couple of days ago; certainly the world has changed, not for the best. Two days beforehand, I had started a journey with my daughter to Nashville, intending to initiate work on a new recording project. Suddenly, our aeroplane was diverted 600 miles to Bangor International Airport and I found myself surrounded by six uniformed officers and handed over to the FBI for questioning.

The most upsetting thing at this point was being separated from my daughter, Maymanah, not knowing how she was or when and where we might be united. And since my phone was confiscated I couldn�t contact my family (nor could they ring me) and they were relegated to watching the whole frightening episode on TV and surviving on scraps of information shown by the media.

My interrogators repeatedly wanted to know how my name was spelt; it sounded to me as though they had it mixed up with someone else�s. Security officers finally told me that my name was on a �No Fly List�, I was classified as �Inadmissible�, and sent back to London.

The amazing thing is that I was not given (and have still not been given) any explanation whatsoever as to what it is I am accused of, or why I am now deemed an apparent security threat - let alone given an opportunity to respond to these allegations. I was simply told that the order had come from �on high�.

We have now initiated a legal process to try to find out exactly what is going on, and to take all necessary steps to undo the very serious, and wholly unfounded, injustice which I have suffered.

I am a man of peace and denounce all forms of terrorism and injustice; it is simply outrageous for the U.S. authorities to suggest otherwise. I have dedicated my life to promoting peace and understanding throughout the world. It would be devastating were the charity work I do through my humanitarian relief organisation, Small Kindness, which helps countless children and families, and which is accredited by the United Nations, to be undermined by what has happened.

What makes the situation even more distressing is the fact that I have now been prevented from entering the United States - a part of God�s earth that I love and whose people have always been great friends to me.

Yet, after all this, I can think of no better response than by continuing what I believe to be the tremendously important work of caring for the needy and campaigning for peace and stability in this volatile and increasingly violent world, and at the same time try to seek to clear my name of this appalling and baseless slur. In the meantime I am confident that, in the end, good sense and, above all, justice, will prevail."

[Spliffdaddy]

don't let the door hit you in the ass, Cat Stevens.

good riddance.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
don't let the door hit you in the ass, Cat Stevens.

good riddance.

Yay Freedom!

Go USA!

[swrate]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
don't let the door hit you in the ass, Cat Stevens.

good riddance.

Freedom?
slam & spin back in,
"a spelling mistake" http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...702062,00.html

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by swrate:
Freedom?
slam & spin back in,
"a spelling mistake" http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...702062,00.html

Better safe than sorry. Transliterated names vary widely in their spellings. It doesn't matter if he spells it Yousef and the database had "Yousseff" or any other variation. It's the same name. If in doubt, you don't let a non-citzen who is on the watch list in. In fact, he shouldn't even have been allowed on the plane until his identity was verified.

Biometric passports will solve this problem. Europe needs to stop dragging its feet on them.