Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

HoofHearted · Jun 12, 2002, 01:55 PM

<a href="http://www.thinksecret.com" target="_blank">ThinkSecret</a> report that IE6 is due soonish.

Now before the usual flame war breaks out (IE vs Chimera vs Mozilla vs Opera vs OWeb vs iCab etc), I have to say that I still use IE as my primary browser, even though I still count chimera and mozilla among my toolkit and would say they were faster in most respects.

I still use IE because the bulk of content on the web was created and tested on IE5/6 for Windows (the amount of cross platform browser testing is shockingly low even in large corporate/government sites), and IE on Mac comes closer to rendering content as it was intended as anything else. So as a web developer, IE is still invaluable to me to show the web as the bulk of users see it (That's not to say testing in IE on PC or VirtualPC isn't still important as well). Ok, in an ideal world, we'd all be viewing xhtml/xsl pages on mozilla, but until then IE is important to the Mac platform to keep us included in the "less enlightened" web world.

IE on Mac needs a refresh, the APIs in OSX has changed quite a lot since IE v.X was first released and IE6 will hopefully take advantage of this and the improvements in Jaguar. Also there are a few annoying bugs in IE that should have been cleared up long ago, such as the beachball of death while pop-up windows load content ,and the javascript bug that makes it quicker to delete hotmail mails in netscape than in IE (how ironic...). And faster rendering would of course be an improvement - Wired have already pointed out what most cross platform people already know - browsing is slower on a Mac using any browser than on Windows in IE.

Anyway - Microsoft MacBU are definitely "on our side" (witness the great aqua looking latest MSN messenger - almost a shame I don't know anyone on MSN!), so I'm very hopeful for IE6 on Mac. Long live the Mac browser wars! It can only improve the software for the platform!

On another note, as many web developers know, IE5.5 on Windows was an attrocity that broke many rules (eg using http headers to force the download of a file - like downloading from versiontracker). I certainly had to build a few web systems that detected the browser and version to get around IE5.5 problems, and was worried that having an IE5.5 for Mac would mean having to rewrite those systems to cope with recognising the defference between Mac/Win IE5.5 - so knowing that IE will be v6 is a load off my mind!

KidRed · Jun 12, 2002, 02:41 PM

Actually, that article says that the release has been pushed back for a while, so I wouldn't expect it any time soon.

Also, I could care less about an update to IE unless it cocoa.

Sharky K. · Jun 12, 2002, 02:47 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KidRed:
Actually, that article says that the release has been pushed back for a while, so I wouldn't expect it any time soon.

Also, I could care less about an update to IE unless it cocoa.<hr /></blockquote>me 2, and MSN's layout is baby-toy like and ugly in my opinion

mitchell_pgh · Jun 12, 2002, 02:54 PM

I'm forced to use IE most of the time... security crap... anyway, I would like to see IE6 sometime after 10.2 is out...

Big Mac · Jun 12, 2002, 03:02 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
I'm forced to use IE most of the time... security crap... anyway, I would like to see IE6 sometime after 10.2 is out...<hr /></blockquote>You're forced to use IE most of the time. Are you saying you're forced because of security regulations (LOL), or are you just commenting that IE's security is crap? I didn't think IT managers were that stupid!

Yeah, the IE release has been pushed back. I hope it's a capable browser, but I'll never count on MS coming through for the Mac.

gorickey · Jun 12, 2002, 03:05 PM

Pushed back? Oh brother, we won't see this until '03....

HoofHearted · Jun 12, 2002, 05:11 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KidRed:
Also, I could care less about an update to IE unless it cocoa.<hr /></blockquote>Well, the Carbon API is on par with Cocoa API now - it's no longer considered a "stop-gap" API just to cope with legacy software. It has access to sheets, services, threading and all the goodies that Cocoa has enjoyed.

Developing a new program from the ground up would definitely be easier/quicker/smarter in Cocoa - but when you already have a few million lines of code already invested, staying with Carbon no longer means you're a second class citizen.

A lot has happened in OSX since the carbon-bad-cocoa-good arguments of the days of Public Beta. That argument doesn't hold true anymore. Move along, move along...

frawgz · Jun 12, 2002, 05:19 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by gorickey:
Pushed back? Oh brother, we won't see this until '03....<hr /></blockquote>Does that mean we get to read another "Return of the Browser War (on the Mac)" article? Wee!!

If OW5 actually comes out on time, maybe we'll have another go at this whole IE vs. OW debate. Nice. (Since Moz tends to come in incremental updates, it's not as interesting <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ).

KidRed · Jun 13, 2002, 11:03 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by HoofHearted:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KidRed:
Also, I could care less about an update to IE unless it cocoa.<hr /></blockquote>Well, the Carbon API is on par with Cocoa API now - it's no longer considered a "stop-gap" API just to cope with legacy software. It has access to sheets, services, threading and all the goodies that Cocoa has enjoyed.

Developing a new program from the ground up would definitely be easier/quicker/smarter in Cocoa - but when you already have a few million lines of code already invested, staying with Carbon no longer means you're a second class citizen.

A lot has happened in OSX since the carbon-bad-cocoa-good arguments of the days of Public Beta. That argument doesn't hold true anymore. Move along, move along...<hr /></blockquote>It's my opinion, not yours, **** off, move along, move along...

HoofHearted · Jun 13, 2002, 05:42 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KidRed:
It's my opinion, not yours, **** off, move along, move along...<hr /></blockquote><off topic>
oh, my mistake - I won't bother discussing viewpoints in forums, I'll just abuse people instead.

Thanks for your kind words - and thanks for your response to *my* discussion and opinions. I'd hardly have called it flame bait. I guess I must have been wrong. In which case I guess I should apologise.

I've seen some good posts from you - that wasn't one of them.
</off topic>

kickinbut_takinnames · Jun 13, 2002, 06:38 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KidRed:... **** off, move along, move along...<hr /></blockquote>Please do, follow your own suggestion. You're posts aren't all that interesting and your treatment of others online is appalling.

KidRed · Jun 13, 2002, 09:17 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by HoofHearted:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KidRed:
It's my opinion, not yours, **** off, move along, move along...<hr /></blockquote><off topic>
oh, my mistake - I won't bother discussing viewpoints in forums, I'll just abuse people instead.

Thanks for your kind words - and thanks for your response to *my* discussion and opinions. I'd hardly have called it flame bait. I guess I must have been wrong. In which case I guess I should apologise.

I've seen some good posts from you - that wasn't one of them.
</off topic><hr /></blockquote>Well you had no reason to tell me to move along in the first place. I stated that i could care lessa bout an IE update until they commit to X by releasing a cocoa version and you told me to move along. I don't take comments belittling my opinion likely. You may disagree as you did, but no need to tell me to move along with my opinion.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Please do, follow your own suggestion. You're posts aren't all that interesting and your treatment of others online is appalling. <hr /></blockquote>Yea, when you've been here long enough to post 5 times you can form an opinion on how I treat others? Why don't you go read all 1200 of my posts and then tell me your opinion of my posts. That's more apalling then your assest of my behavior towards a member that belittled my opinion. As for my posts being intersting, why don't you post a few more times as obviously you really don't have anything intersting to say. The censored "****" was not a word that begins with "F" so my comment wasn't as harsh you seem to think.

davecom · Jun 13, 2002, 09:39 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KidRed:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by HoofHearted:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KidRed:
It's my opinion, not yours, **** off, move along, move along...<hr /></blockquote><off topic>
oh, my mistake - I won't bother discussing viewpoints in forums, I'll just abuse people instead.

Thanks for your kind words - and thanks for your response to *my* discussion and opinions. I'd hardly have called it flame bait. I guess I must have been wrong. In which case I guess I should apologise.

I've seen some good posts from you - that wasn't one of them.
</off topic><hr /></blockquote>Well you had no reason to tell me to move along in the first place. I stated that i could care lessa bout an IE update until they commit to X by releasing a cocoa version and you told me to move along. I don't take comments belittling my opinion likely. You may disagree as you did, but no need to tell me to move along with my opinion.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Please do, follow your own suggestion. You're posts aren't all that interesting and your treatment of others online is appalling. <hr /></blockquote>Yea, when you've been here long enough to post 5 times you can form an opinion on how I treat others? Why don't you go read all 1200 of my posts and then tell me your opinion of my posts. That's more apalling then your assest of my behavior towards a member that belittled my opinion. As for my posts being intersting, why don't you post a few more times as obviously you really don't have anything intersting to say. The censored "****" was not a word that begins with "F" so my comment wasn't as harsh you seem to think.<hr /></blockquote>I've been around a while, and I've found you to be quite split, sometimes good, sometimes bad. However, I don't feel there is ever a need to use language against someone in an internet(means nothing, just trading useful information) arena. And quite frankly, we don't care about your opinion on Cocoa versus Carbon (Which in my humble opinion is a mute discussion anyway.) unless you back it up with some relevant information. Otherwise it means as much as me saying, "I like basketball better than hockey" in a discussion about Ford cars.

kickinbut_takinnames · Jun 14, 2002, 12:19 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KidRed:
Yea, when you've been here long enough to post 5 times you can form an opinion on how I treat others? Why don't you go read all 1200 of my posts and then tell me your opinion of my posts. That's more apalling then your assest of my behavior towards a member that belittled my opinion. As for my posts being intersting, why don't you post a few more times as obviously you really don't have anything intersting to say. The censored "****" was not a word that begins with "F" so my comment wasn't as harsh you seem to think.<hr /></blockquote>You seem to have some very naive ideas about what you can reasonably infer from post counts and registered dates.

For the record..
* I've been a regular reader/contributor to these fora since well before OS X went public beta.
* I have read quite a number of your posts.
* Hopefully I will never have a large number of posts under this handle, since I only use it to afford some posters the opportunity to be treated like they have just treated others online. Particularly when it looks like it's getting to be a habit.

ford prefect · Jun 14, 2002, 05:38 AM

back on topic, uhhh....

If you can't tell it to not allow windows to open other window without my permission, they can take their browser and, well you know....

I will never be happy with a browser that allows popups and popunders.

Also, if you can't "block images from this server," I'm not interested.

asxless · Jun 14, 2002, 08:48 AM

I'm really not that interested in _when_ the latest version of IE:mac arrives; just that it _does_ arrive and has rough feature parity with IE

c. A recent MacNN poll showed roughly 25% using IE:mac as their main browser. I hope they keep on using it, because if we ALL quit using IE:mac, M$ would have the perfect excuse to drop development entirely.

No matter how much I dislike M$'s attempts to dominate the browser space and IE's lack of features like image blocking, popup blocking, tabbed browsing, etc., I will probably always keep a copy of IE:mac handy. <sigh> Too many sites are still created/maintained with M$ tools which allow/encourage poor sites to only work OK with IE.

FWIW I will use an alternate browser for 99% of my browsing and I will still request that sites be compatible and tested with alternate browsers. But practically speaking, not having a copy of the latest version of IE:mac handy, hurts me more than it helps reduce M$'s dominance.

asxless in iLand

Ron Goodman · Jun 14, 2002, 10:16 AM

Trashing IE is always the first thing I do when it gets installed. If Web developers want my traffic, their sites had better work in something besides IE.

Fotek2001 · Jun 14, 2002, 11:50 AM

Well I'm a web developer and I like sticking to standards. IE 5 for Mac supports pretty much all of the most useful CSS and HTML stuff that you need to make a respectable website. Mozilla is even better so I always test in these two browsers. I never test in OmniWeb - what's the point? And I never even use iCab.

I'm looking forward to seeing what IE 5 will be like, not so much because I want to use it but because I think they [MS] can do good stuff when they put their minds to it. I don't have any interest in it being Cocoa because these days there wouldn't be any reason to convert a fully Carbon app to a fully Cocoa one other than because you're bored and have too mcuh spare time. On the other hand, I would like to see it support sheets, custom toolbars and a more Mac OS X like interface (not that fugly MSN Messenger interface). Oh, I'd also like it to be faster, have better multithreading and pop-up killing features (like that's gonna happen).

[ 06-14-2002, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: Fotek2001 ]

absmiths · Jun 14, 2002, 05:24 PM

I don't see mozilla ever conquering the browser market (or making a dent in the non-techie consumer market) - Netscape has the only name that could do that. Given that IE has the name AND the market position AND the tools that attract web developers I will sadly continue to use it and mourn for Netscape 4.x - the last fatality before the browser cold wars.

Mac users on the web are generally relegated to off-looking pages where SOMETHING is always wrong, no matter which browser you use.

Mr. Blur · Jun 15, 2002, 10:48 PM

<a href="http://www.obzorg.org/archives/00000051.shtml" target="_blank">obzorg.org</a> reports that ie 5.2 is coming monday......

KaptainKaya · Jun 15, 2002, 11:07 PM

Well, 6.0 might be out later this summer with Jaguar, but it looks like 5.2 (if its true that is) is just bug fixes and updated for quartz rendering.

Mactoid · Jun 15, 2002, 11:43 PM

I'd wadger that IE will never have any image or popup filtering options. Reason being that, though the users all love that stuff, the advertisers hate it! Since MS is in bed with so many evil corp's they would not want to anger all their friends.

I would be surprised if an Apple branded browser was much better in that regard either.

Sharky K. · Jun 16, 2002, 04:24 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by absmiths:
I don't see mozilla ever conquering the browser market (or making a dent in the non-techie consumer market) - Netscape has the only name that could do that. Given that IE has the name AND the market position AND the tools that attract web developers I will sadly continue to use it and mourn for Netscape 4.x - the last fatality before the browser cold wars.

Mac users on the web are generally relegated to off-looking pages where SOMETHING is always wrong, no matter which browser you use.<hr /></blockquote>but Netscape has such a bad name with almost all users.

Gul Banana · Jun 16, 2002, 10:04 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Sharky K.:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by absmiths:
I don't see mozilla ever conquering the browser market (or making a dent in the non-techie consumer market) - Netscape has the only name that could do that. Given that IE has the name AND the market position AND the tools that attract web developers I will sadly continue to use it and mourn for Netscape 4.x - the last fatality before the browser cold wars.

Mac users on the web are generally relegated to off-looking pages where SOMETHING is always wrong, no matter which browser you use.<hr /></blockquote>but Netscape has such a bad name with almost all users.<hr /></blockquote>It does NOW, sure. Now that Netscape is just an encrappulated, defeatureified, conbloatengrammed version of Mozilla. But Netscape 4.x, for a long long time, was the best browser out there by a wide margin.

asxless · Jun 16, 2002, 06:14 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Gul Banana:
Now that Netscape is just an encrappulated, defeatureified, conbloatengrammed version of Mozilla.<hr /></blockquote>I've spent a fair amount of time in Perth, but I guess I frequented the wrong pubs to get a full appreciation for the lingo

BTW I still use Netscape 4.7.x running in Classic to benchmark the latest OS X browsers for speed and site compatibiity.... N4.7.x nearly always wins and frequently by a wide margin.

axless in iLand

KellyHogan · Jun 16, 2002, 06:39 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Gul Banana:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Sharky K.:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by absmiths:
I don't see mozilla ever conquering the browser market (or making a dent in the non-techie consumer market) - Netscape has the only name that could do that. Given that IE has the name AND the market position AND the tools that attract web developers I will sadly continue to use it and mourn for Netscape 4.x - the last fatality before the browser cold wars.

Mac users on the web are generally relegated to off-looking pages where SOMETHING is always wrong, no matter which browser you use.<hr /></blockquote>but Netscape has such a bad name with almost all users.<hr /></blockquote>It does NOW, sure. Now that Netscape is just an encrappulated, defeatureified, conbloatengrammed version of Mozilla. But Netscape 4.x, for a long long time, was the best browser out there by a wide margin.<hr /></blockquote>Cough cough.

Waiting ten seconds for each window to open and load all manners of plugins.

Gul Banana · Jun 16, 2002, 07:08 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by asxless:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Gul Banana:
Now that Netscape is just an encrappulated, defeatureified, conbloatengrammed version of Mozilla.<hr /></blockquote>I've spent a fair amount of time in Perth, but I guess I frequented the wrong pubs to get a full appreciation for the lingo

BTW I still use Netscape 4.7.x running in Classic to benchmark the latest OS X browsers for speed and site compatibiity.... N4.7.x nearly always wins and frequently by a wide margin.

axless in iLand<hr /></blockquote>I kind of made those words up, but I think they get my point across nicely.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KellyHogan:
Cough cough.

Waiting ten seconds for each window to open and load all manners of plugins.
<hr /></blockquote>Is something that did not happen, yes. Well, it did in IE for Windows at the time, but not Netscape - I can't vouch for earlier versions of IE:Mac. Your point?

gorickey · Jun 16, 2002, 07:21 PM

Yeah, sounds like 5.2 IE is coming out tomorrow....if it's just bug fixes and Quartz Rendering, I'll be a happy camper...performace is key before new features if you ask me.

Hopefully, it does indeed come out tomorrow...

dr. zoidberg · Jun 16, 2002, 08:43 PM

netscape 4.x?? couldn�t handle css properly, couldn�t even render framesets in pixel-fidelity... really embarassing.

other than that it was a great browser, and i used it a lot back then.

right now i mainly use iexplorer... although it showed some quirks in the recent time... looking forward to some update, tho. once omniweb gets decent css support it will be probably the browser of my choice... popup & adkilling works great. �til then it�s IE 5 with silk-smoothed text, yummy.

asxless · Jun 16, 2002, 10:37 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Gul Banana:
I kind of made those words up, but I think they get my point across nicely.<hr /></blockquote>They certainly do. I always blamed such creative license on the Dogbolter or Cape Mentelle Shiraz

asxless in iLand

godzookie2k · Jun 17, 2002, 12:17 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
right now i mainly use iexplorer... although it showed some quirks in the recent time... looking forward to some update, tho. once omniweb gets decent css support it will be probably the browser of my choice... <hr /></blockquote>I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you, thats one hell of a long ass wait.

KaptainKaya · Jun 17, 2002, 12:39 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by godzookie2k:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />
right now i mainly use iexplorer... although it showed some quirks in the recent time... looking forward to some update, tho. once omniweb gets decent css support it will be probably the browser of my choice... <hr /></blockquote>I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you, thats one hell of a long ass wait.<hr /></blockquote>Yeah, esp. considering that 5.0 is supposed to address that and isnt due til sometime next year. Of course, 4.1 was due shortly after 10.1 was released and look where we are with that.

Gul Banana · Jun 17, 2002, 01:03 AM

Hey, we'll probably still have it before IE6