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SirCastor · Jun 16, 2002, 01:38 PM

I just thought I might say that Tabbed Browsing in Mozilla is sweet. It's really really cool. An excellent implementation of a good UI concept. It definately helps me in terms of screen clutter.

Guy Incognito · Jun 16, 2002, 01:48 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by SirCastor:
I just thought I might say that Tabbed Browsing in Mozilla is sweet. It's really really cool. An excellent implementation of a good UI concept. It definately helps me in terms of screen clutter.<hr /></blockquote>It's actually a bad UI concept. But whatever floats your boat...

spiney · Jun 16, 2002, 01:58 PM

Really I'm a user and I find it extremely useful.

snerdini · Jun 16, 2002, 02:12 PM

Guy, could you please explain why it's a bad UI concept?

I think it's rather harsh to outright denounce a UI concept...tabs don't work in certain scenarios, but I think the way Mozilla has implemented it works very well. Care to share your thoughts?

[ 06-16-2002, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: snerdini ]

SupahCoolX · Jun 16, 2002, 03:13 PM

12" iBook screen + tabbed browsing = THANK YOU!

Sharky K. · Jun 16, 2002, 05:48 PM

there are better methods to have "more windows" in one window.
tab-ed window is a cool start

KellyHogan · Jun 16, 2002, 06:00 PM

Mozilla is broken for me. It freezes on the splash screen. I deleted it and all the Mozilla prefs I cold find, then reinstalled. No difference. I can't figure it out.

Target Practice · Jun 16, 2002, 06:41 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by snerdini:
Guy, could you please explain why it's a bad UI concept?
<hr /></blockquote>Guy elaborates in a post in this thread: <a href="http://forums.macnn.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=003798" target="_blank">"Will The Next Proteus Make You Switch From Fire?"</a>

Amazingly, he makes some good points without insulting anyone in that particular post.

nforcer · Jun 17, 2002, 04:44 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Sharky K.:
there are better methods to have "more windows" in one window.
tab-ed window is a cool start<hr /></blockquote>What are some of these better methods? I've thought of tabbed browsing being done with a popup to switch between pages, or a drawer with a list of open pages, but both of those concepts have flaws of their own.

With a popup, you have to click and hold, move the mouse, then let go. Or Click, move the mouse, and then click again. That's more time consuming than a single click for a tab. Although on the bright side, you will be able to see all page titles no matter how many pages open (unless you have a freakishly small main browser window)

With a drawer, you'd get the same truncated page title effect with tabs (unless the drawer was really long, in which case it would defeat the purpose of doing tabbed browsing), but you could certainly display more pages since title rows are smaller than tabs and most people have more vertical space in their web browser windows instead of horizontal space. However, if you had too many pages open, you would have to start scrolling and that would slow things down (although one could argue if you had that many pages open you are crazy

).

Any other options... just keeping a list of windows and only displaying one at a time or using a contextual menu in a similar fashion isn't really viable because you can't immediately see what pages are open at any given time.

It seems every way I have described has a flaw of it's own, but using tabs seems to be the fastest option with the least flaws for switching between pages.

nforcer · Jun 17, 2002, 04:47 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KellyHogan:
Mozilla is broken for me. It freezes on the splash screen. I deleted it and all the Mozilla prefs I cold find, then reinstalled. No difference. I can't figure it out.<hr /></blockquote>I've had a similar problem before. Have you tried deleting your cache? It seemed to solve the problem for me.

shortcipher · Jun 17, 2002, 04:47 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by SirCastor:
I just thought I might say that Tabbed Browsing in Mozilla is sweet. It's really really cool. An excellent implementation of a good UI concept. It definately helps me in terms of screen clutter.<hr /></blockquote>It's actually a bad UI concept. But whatever floats your boat...<hr /></blockquote>yeah, come on Guy - why is it a bad idea?

undotwa · Jun 17, 2002, 05:36 AM

Tabbed browsing in Chimera rocks. It's really useful because my iMac has a 15" display @ 1024.768 which sucks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

It's current incarnation is perfect in Chimera for me I don't see anything wrong with it. Seriously, I mean perfect. I'm not saying the entire browser is perfect mind you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Gul Banana · Jun 17, 2002, 07:24 AM

Surely the definition of a good user interface concept is one which users like and find useful?

Fotek2001 · Jun 17, 2002, 08:14 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Surely the definition of a good user interface concept is one which users like and find useful? <hr /></blockquote>You'd think wouldn't you but apparently, Guy Incognito is an expert in user interface design so he's right

I love the tabs in Mozilla and Chimera and I don't care what anyone says about how much better a list/outline view in a drawer is in theory - I won't be using an application that takes this route when an alternative with tabs is available.

There are, of course, situations when a drawer might be more intuitive but I'm not entirely sure that I buy Guy's arguments about tabs getting cluttered if you have loads of them open. At most I only have four tabs open in a browser at a time and I only conduct up to about three IM chats at a time so the argument about tabs taking up loads of space is, for me at any rate, rather weak.

ImpishLM · Jun 17, 2002, 09:54 AM

OK: dumb question #243:

What exactly IS tabbed browser? Are we talking about the sidebar? I thought so, but the help system says "content to be added," and lists info about the sidebar separately.

The prefs pane doesn't offer info either....

Fill me in? Thanks!

RGB · Jun 17, 2002, 10:13 AM

Mozilla is my main browser simply because of tabbed windows. Same goes to Adium...is there a key command a la Adium's command-right/left arrows to cycle through tabs via keyboard in Mozilla 1.0?

On the PC side of things, Opera rules Tabland for me.

rsh · Jun 17, 2002, 10:24 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by RGB:
...is there a key command a la Adium's command-right/left arrows to cycle through tabs via keyboard in Mozilla 1.0? <hr /></blockquote>It's ctrl-pgdown.

My prime complaint about tabbed browsing in Moz/Chim is that when I click an URL in another app, or call up an URL through LaunchBar, a new *window* opens instead of a new tab. I haven't found anyway to fix this... as I understand it, it is a "feature" of Netscape-style browsers... i.e. you can't open a linke from an external app in an existing window.

Guy Incognito · Jun 17, 2002, 10:30 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Fotek2001:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Surely the definition of a good user interface concept is one which users like and find useful? <hr /></blockquote>You'd think wouldn't you but apparently, Guy Incognito is an expert in user interface design so he's right

I love the tabs in Mozilla and Chimera and I don't care what anyone says about how much better a list/outline view in a drawer is in theory - I won't be using an application that takes this route when an alternative with tabs is available.

There are, of course, situations when a drawer might be more intuitive but I'm not entirely sure that I buy Guy's arguments about tabs getting cluttered if you have loads of them open. At most I only have four tabs open in a browser at a time and I only conduct up to about three IM chats at a time so the argument about tabs taking up loads of space is, for me at any rate, rather weak.<hr /></blockquote>People think Windows has a good user interface. So I have no doubt in my mind that people enjoy shoddy interfaces. Why? Because they haven' tried anything better. You guys enjoy a tabbed-interface...because you haven't tried anything better. Simple as that! And yes, I am an expert in user interface design.

Well, I guess in your case, Fotek, a tabbed-interface is ok. If you only have 4 pages up and 3 IMs up at the same time, then tabs work well. Makes me wonder why you'd use tabs for so little open windows though.

Trust me, tabs weren't meant to be used in the manner Mozilla/Chimera/Adium uses them. They aren't as flexible as they should be without some heavy customization which Adam Iser is supposedly planning to implement. They might have to be custom tabs too instead of the native OS X tabs if he plans to have the tabs re-organizable.

tinrib · Jun 17, 2002, 10:40 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ImpishLM:
OK: dumb question #243:

What exactly IS tabbed browser? Are we talking about the sidebar? I thought so, but the help system says "content to be added," and lists info about the sidebar separately.

The prefs pane doesn't offer info either....

Fill me in? Thanks!<hr /></blockquote>tabbed browsing:

<img src="http://www.stain.org/david/tabs.jpg" alt=" - " />

Gul Banana · Jun 17, 2002, 11:27 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
People think Windows has a good user interface.
<hr /></blockquote>What people?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
So I have no doubt in my mind that people enjoy shoddy interfaces. Why? Because they haven' tried anything better. You guys enjoy a tabbed-interface...because you haven't tried anything better. Simple as that! And yes, I am an expert in user interface design.

<hr /></blockquote>Thing is, if there isn't anything better _out_ there, we can't try it. Tabbed browsing is good by default if it's the best available.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Well, I guess in your case, Fotek, a tabbed-interface is ok. If you only have 4 pages up and 3 IMs up at the same time, then tabs work well. Makes me wonder why you'd use tabs for so little open windows though.
<hr /></blockquote>..Because that's when tabs are useful? And, in Mozilla/Chimera, having a window with three or four tabs is far nicer than having four windows open? People use them because they _like_ them. You can't just say "You shouldn't like doing that"!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Trust me, tabs weren't meant to be used in the manner Mozilla/Chimera/Adium uses them.
<hr /></blockquote>Meant by who exactly? Is there a standards body that defines user interface elements, and their allowed uses? It might be a good thing to have, but it doesn't exist.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
They aren't as flexible as they should be without some heavy customization which Adam Iser is supposedly planning to implement. They might have to be custom tabs too instead of the native OS X tabs if he plans to have the tabs re-organizable.<hr /></blockquote>"They are not as good as they could be" is not the same as "They are not good".

Seriously, here. I'm not the greatest fan of tabbed browsing myself, but if people like it, they like it. You can prescribe what people do, if you have power over them; you can change the interface that people experience, if you're a developer; but you can't change what they like. Just because you don't think something is good doesn't mean it isn't good for other people.

Guy Incognito · Jun 17, 2002, 12:26 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Gul Banana:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
People think Windows has a good user interface.
<hr /></blockquote>What people?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
So I have no doubt in my mind that people enjoy shoddy interfaces. Why? Because they haven' tried anything better. You guys enjoy a tabbed-interface...because you haven't tried anything better. Simple as that! And yes, I am an expert in user interface design.

<hr /></blockquote>Thing is, if there isn't anything better _out_ there, we can't try it. Tabbed browsing is good by default if it's the best available.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Well, I guess in your case, Fotek, a tabbed-interface is ok. If you only have 4 pages up and 3 IMs up at the same time, then tabs work well. Makes me wonder why you'd use tabs for so little open windows though.
<hr /></blockquote>..Because that's when tabs are useful? And, in Mozilla/Chimera, having a window with three or four tabs is far nicer than having four windows open? People use them because they _like_ them. You can't just say "You shouldn't like doing that"!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Trust me, tabs weren't meant to be used in the manner Mozilla/Chimera/Adium uses them.
<hr /></blockquote>Meant by who exactly? Is there a standards body that defines user interface elements, and their allowed uses? It might be a good thing to have, but it doesn't exist.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
They aren't as flexible as they should be without some heavy customization which Adam Iser is supposedly planning to implement. They might have to be custom tabs too instead of the native OS X tabs if he plans to have the tabs re-organizable.<hr /></blockquote>"They are not as good as they could be" is not the same as "They are not good".

Seriously, here. I'm not the greatest fan of tabbed browsing myself, but if people like it, they like it. You can prescribe what people do, if you have power over them; you can change the interface that people experience, if you're a developer; but you can't change what they like. Just because you don't think something is good doesn't mean it isn't good for other people.<hr /></blockquote>Have you not read my post? I have no doubt that people like tabbed-browsing or tabbed-IMing. I explained the reason: they haven't seen any other implementation of it before. They think it's the only and best way to go.

"Just because you don't think something is good doesn't mean it isn't good for other people." Let me change what you've said to something better "Just because you think something is good for a lot of people doesn't mean it's the best solution for everyone."

Jeezus, I've explained the benefits of the vertical layout many times already...with pictures. I'm not gonna repeat myself the tab-fanatics that can't see past their noses (this excludes you, Gul, since you're not a tab-fanatic...but like I said, I'm not gonna repeat the reasons why a tabbed-interface such as Adium and Chimera isn't the best solution.)

[ 06-17-2002, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: Guy Incognito ]

Guy Incognito · Jun 17, 2002, 12:43 PM

I have a hard time imagining that Adam Iser is a GUI expert. He goes against Apple's guidelines; a photo-realistic icon that represents the function of the app and instead creates a cartoon bird that represents nothing of what the app is about.

Don't assume that I'm saying that Proteus follows the guidelines. It doesn't. The Proteus icon is an Aqua speech bubble...but at least it's aqua and at least it's a f*ckin' speech bubble that represents some sort of communication.

Then the Adium interface moves on to something even weirder; etch-a-sketch black & white icons. You've got a colorful bird app icon and then pencil-marking in-app icons. WTF!? As far away from Aqua as possible, eh Adam? Why not just create custom themed-windows instead of using native OS X Aqua windows? This mismatch of Aqua and chicken-scratch icons is headache-inducing.

With such a ass-backwards-GUI-designer that has no respect for the presentation of his GUI, you're telling me his tabbed-interface is brilliant? Please! Don't make me laugh.

The tabs are being misused. Tabs are meant to group similar preference functions (radio buttons, checkmark buttons, text fields etc...), they aren't meant to separate IM conversations or webpages. Sure, the tabs do the job...but they weren't meant to do this particular kind of job and as result, they aren't as powerful as other alternatives.

Tabs aren't meant to have dual or triple functionalities (single-click, double-click, right-click). Tabs are meant to be single-clicked on and that's it! Tabs aren't meant to be moved/dragged around. Tabs aren't meant to be dynamically added and removed. Adam Iser is going to be hard at work reinventing the wheel to make tabs work the way he and I want them to work. I don't think that's a very wise idea to change the way tabs are supposed to work.

[ 06-17-2002, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: Guy Incognito ]

nforcer · Jun 17, 2002, 02:07 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
I have a hard time imagining that Adam Iser is a GUI expert. He goes against Apple's guidelines<hr /></blockquote>Then again, Apple goes against their own guidelines. They talk about conforming to Aqua, and how it is the best approach to good design. Then they go and make a new iApp or new version of Quicktime that is in violation of their guidelines (one could argue that with Jaguar the brushed metal approach is now a part of aqua since it will be a checkbox option for cocoa developers, but then again, that's future tense and not in there yet... and there are still no official guidelines for brushed metal apps). They talk about providing a pure user experience by making things work in such and such a way, yet they cripple developers and users by not fixing certain problems or not providing similar functionality (after a year of OS X, carbon still lags behind cocoa by not providing things like drawers, transparent sheets, or a combobox control... and ATSUI works so sloooow under Carbon).

The failure of Apple to recognize and conform to their own interface guidelines is also causing some other serious usability problems. If you use iMovie at a res higher than 1024x768 you'll see a bigger waste of space than you have ever claimed tabbed browsing to be <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

My opinion... let the developers do what they want. Give new interface concepts a chance... that's the way the Mac OS has expanded over the years. I like your interface mockup and hope that there will be an IM client that one day implements something similar. If not, you could always make it yourself since Adium is open source, and Fire too, I believe.

Silky Voice of The Gorn · Jun 17, 2002, 03:07 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
[QB]I have a hard time imagining that Adam Iser is a GUI expert. He goes against Apple's guidelines; a photo-realistic icon that represents the function of the app and instead creates a cartoon bird that represents nothing of what the app is about. <hr /></blockquote>It's a helpful policy, but in the end meaningless to developers - even Apple. What the hell does a smiling blue face have to do with a file browsing application? Nothing - but we all know that it's the icon of the Finder.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Then the Adium interface moves on to something even weirder; etch-a-sketch black & white icons. You've got a colorful bird app icon and then pencil-marking in-app icons. This mismatch of Aqua and chicken-scratch icons is headache-inducing.<hr /></blockquote>Uhh..so you look from the dock icon up to the Adium app window and get headaches? Look at your menu items. What are those? Black and white icons! And Apple made them- shocking! So you must get headeaches looking from the dock up to your menubar too.

I happen to think Adium's greyscale icons are excellent, and work in the same way; simple, efficient icons that point to secondary application functions. Just like the Menu Items.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The tabs are being misused. ..Sure, the tabs do the job...but they weren't meant to do this particular kind of job and as result, they aren't as powerful as other alternatives.<hr /></blockquote>Please suggest some.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Tabs aren't meant to have dual or triple functionalities (single-click, double-click, right-click). Tabs are meant to be single-clicked on and that's it! Tabs aren't meant to be moved/dragged around. Tabs aren't meant to be dynamically added and removed.<hr /></blockquote>Please direct me to the Apple document that states this (no contention; I'm simply curious what Apple's official policy is)

cpac · Jun 17, 2002, 03:14 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Silky Voice of The Gorn:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />The tabs are being misused. ..Sure, the tabs do the job...but they weren't meant to do this particular kind of job and as result, they aren't as powerful as other alternatives.<hr /></blockquote>Please suggest some.
<hr /></blockquote>eh- did you *read* any of the above thread?

Silky Voice of The Gorn · Jun 17, 2002, 03:31 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by cpac:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Silky Voice of The Gorn:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />The tabs are being misused. ..Sure, the tabs do the job...but they weren't meant to do this particular kind of job and as result, they aren't as powerful as other alternatives.<hr /></blockquote>Please suggest some.
<hr /></blockquote>eh- did you *read* any of the above thread?<hr /></blockquote>Yes, and he didn't offer any. I had to dig through that other linked thread to find them.

I have no issue with Guy's interface suggestions, they are sensible. But he seems to work from the premise that Apple's guidelines are somehow The One True Way�. If indeed Apple's spec for tabs is being "abused", then this is showing the ingenuity of the developer community. I wouldn't be surprised if Apple responded by making a class for dragable, multi clickable tabs in a future release.

Guy Incognito · Jun 17, 2002, 03:59 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Silky Voice of The Gorn:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by cpac:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Silky Voice of The Gorn:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />The tabs are being misused. ..Sure, the tabs do the job...but they weren't meant to do this particular kind of job and as result, they aren't as powerful as other alternatives.<hr /></blockquote>Please suggest some.
<hr /></blockquote>eh- did you *read* any of the above thread?<hr /></blockquote>Yes, and he didn't offer any. I had to dig through that other linked thread to find them.

I have no issue with Guy's interface suggestions, they are sensible. But he seems to work from the premise that Apple's guidelines are somehow The One True Way�. If indeed Apple's spec for tabs is being "abused", then this is showing the ingenuity of the developer community. I wouldn't be surprised if Apple responded by making a class for dragable, multi clickable tabs in a future release.<hr /></blockquote>Get lost kid! Don't let your hatred for me fuel your hatred for alternatives to tabbed-browsing. If you do, you are a weak-minded fool.

I'm growing tired of this 'tab-everything-but-the-kitchen-sink' zealotry. If you don't want to listen to or experience the benefits of the alternatives, fine...go f*ck yourself.

[ 06-17-2002, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: Guy Incognito ]

Silky Voice of The Gorn · Jun 17, 2002, 04:07 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
Get lost kid! Don't let your hatred for me fuel your hatred for alternatives to tabbed-browsing. If you do, you are a weak-minded fool.<hr /></blockquote>

Did I infer I hated you? I don't make things personal here.

Please see my last statement; I said your suggestions regarding UI were sensible. In fact, I'm not even that crazy about tab browsing. I merely question what seems to be an overly-rigid policy regarding adherence to Apple's HUIG on your part.

Edit: I decided to find out for myself what Apple's policy is on Tabs. Here is, verbatim, what Apples HIG document (available at <a href="http://developer.apple.com)" target="_blank">http://developer.apple.com)</a> says regarding Tabs:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The tab control provides a convenient way to present information in a multipage format. Tabs can display centered horizontally across the top or bottom edge, or centered vertically along the left or right side. Figure 7-20 shows the proper orientation of text on tabs on each of the four sides.

The content area below a tab is called a pane. You can use other controls such as push buttons and scroll bars in tabbed windows too. The controls can be global� affecting the settings of all panes�or specific to an individual pane. Make it clear through labeling and placement (within or outside of a tab pane�s boundary, for example) whether a control affects one pane or all panes.<hr /></blockquote>The opening sentence says it all: "The tab control provides a convenient way to present information in a multipage format." This description is completely generic as to the use of the content of the tabbed window.

Guy, unless there is some other Apple document which is more specific about Tab usage, your declaration that they are being misused is valid as an opinion, but certainly not as an official guideline from Apple.

[ 06-17-2002, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: Silky Voice of The Gorn ]

MrBS · Jun 17, 2002, 05:24 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Silky Voice of The Gorn:

Did I infer I hated you? I don't make things personal here. <hr /></blockquote>He inferred it. You may have implied it.
~BS

Guy Incognito · Jun 17, 2002, 06:07 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Silky Voice of The Gorn:

Guy, unless there is some other Apple document which is more specific about Tab usage, your declaration that they are being misused is valid as an opinion, but certainly not as an official guideline from Apple.<hr /></blockquote>Alright...I stand corrected. There is no guideline that says that it's a no-no to present webpages in a tab format or to put IM conversations in a tab format.

What I'm really trying to convey here (and seem to be failing miserably at) is that the tab format isn't the best method. Sure, you can use it...and there might not be any guidelines against it (although I've never seen tabs used for anything as radical as separating webpage or IM conversations until Mozilla, Chimera and Adium came out...I have a suspicion that it's because it's not really a good idea even though a handful of people seem to like it)...but by golly, don't tell me this tab format is the best format in the world without trying some alternatives!

I'd have to throw you in the 'Windows users that claim Macs suck without even having tried one in their life' pile.

If you were taught all your life to wipe your a$$ with your bare hand, you'd think it was the best method eh? 'cuz it probably would work. But please, don't tell me it's the be-all-end-all a$$-wiping method.

I've explained the benefits of the other format and I don't see anyone explaining how my explanations are wrong. I've also explained how normal tabs work and how they're not as flexible without some sort of custom implementation that would go against the way normal tabs work. I don't want to repeat myself again so this is the end of this discussion.

Frankly, I don't really care if people prefer the tab format. I'll be more productive with the other method. Thx, bye!

[ 06-17-2002, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: Guy Incognito ]

Silky Voice of The Gorn · Jun 17, 2002, 07:20 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
(although I've never seen tabs used for anything as radical as separating webpage or IM conversations until Mozilla, Chimera and Adium came out...I have a suspicion that it's because it's not really a good idea even though a handful of people seem to like it)<hr /></blockquote>From programmers I've talked to, I think it's because Cocoa makes it really easy to knock together interfaces like this (including all the drawer and toolbar stuff). In the end, the market will decided what interfaces it likes, regardless of what is "correct" or not. Photoshop's "Save for Web" and ImageReady use a tab-style dialog, so it's nothing new really.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />...but by golly, don't tell me this tab format is the best format in the world without trying some alternatives!

I'd have to throw you in the 'Windows users that claim Macs suck without even having tried one in their life' pile.<hr /></blockquote>I never did, so please don't

Gul Banana · Jun 17, 2002, 09:26 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by nforcer:
The failure of Apple to recognize and conform to their own interface guidelines is also causing some other serious usability problems. If you use iMovie at a res higher than 1024x768 you'll see a bigger waste of space than you have ever claimed tabbed browsing to be <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
<hr /></blockquote>If you're talking about the Shelf not expanding along with the screen, <a href="http://homepage.mac.com/castiglione/Main" target="_blank">here</a>'s a quick fix...
Download that file, and replace iMovie.app/Contents/Resources/Interface Files/Main with it. Make a backup of your own version first, of course, I don't want my hacked interface file doing evil things to you

And Guy... Well, if your final point is that there are better ways of doing things than tabs, I can't help but agree. Although, yes, you were failing miserably at conveying that for most of this thread

Guy Incognito · Jun 17, 2002, 09:35 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Gul Banana:
And Guy... Well, if your final point is that there are better ways of doing things than tabs, I can't help but agree. Although, yes, you were failing miserably at conveying that for most of this thread

<hr /></blockquote>I know exactly the reason why I can't convey my points...I'm rude, obnoxious and vulgar. People shift from listening to my points or ideas and focus on the insults I fling at them. I gotta stop this nonsense. I'll try to change for the better, but it's pretty tough when you know the internet has no real boundaries for expressing yourself, especially when nobody knows you and you're posting incognito. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Seriously though...the internet for me is a way to vent the frustration I can't express in real life. I'm really a nice guy in real life...honest. You'd never believe Guy Incognito and Marc were the same person.

undotwa · Jun 17, 2002, 10:26 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by nforcer:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
I have a hard time imagining that Adam Iser is a GUI expert. He goes against Apple's guidelines<hr /></blockquote>Then again, Apple goes against their own guidelines. They talk about conforming to Aqua, and how it is the best approach to good design. Then they go and make a new iApp or new version of Quicktime that is in violation of their guidelines (one could argue that with Jaguar the brushed metal approach is now a part of aqua since it will be a checkbox option for cocoa developers, but then again, that's future tense and not in there yet... and there are still no official guidelines for brushed metal apps). They talk about providing a pure user experience by making things work in such and such a way, yet they cripple developers and users by not fixing certain problems or not providing similar functionality (after a year of OS X, carbon still lags behind cocoa by not providing things like drawers, transparent sheets, or a combobox control... and ATSUI works so sloooow under Carbon).

The failure of Apple to recognize and conform to their own interface guidelines is also causing some other serious usability problems. If you use iMovie at a res higher than 1024x768 you'll see a bigger waste of space than you have ever claimed tabbed browsing to be <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

My opinion... let the developers do what they want. Give new interface concepts a chance... that's the way the Mac OS has expanded over the years. I like your interface mockup and hope that there will be an IM client that one day implements something similar. If not, you could always make it yourself since Adium is open source, and Fire too, I believe.<hr /></blockquote>Apple isn't breaking their guidelines. You can only break the guidelines if you use the Aqua interface. Developers can choose whatever interface they want for their app, but if they choose the Aqua interface (like OmniWeb or Finder) they should stick to the guidelines to keep it consistent. But now Apple has opened up the brushed metal interface, so there will be guidelines for that too (probably).

Most carbon ports look bad because they are using the Mac OS 8 layouting with Aqua interface elements. You talking about carbon being inferior to Cocoa is just bs. Sure there are a *few* elements which Apple hasn't released the APIs for, but Jaguar will change all that...

nforcer · Jun 17, 2002, 11:30 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by undotwa:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by nforcer:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
I have a hard time imagining that Adam Iser is a GUI expert. He goes against Apple's guidelines<hr /></blockquote>Then again, Apple goes against their own guidelines. They talk about conforming to Aqua, and how it is the best approach to good design. Then they go and make a new iApp or new version of Quicktime that is in violation of their guidelines (one could argue that with Jaguar the brushed metal approach is now a part of aqua since it will be a checkbox option for cocoa developers, but then again, that's future tense and not in there yet... and there are still no official guidelines for brushed metal apps). They talk about providing a pure user experience by making things work in such and such a way, yet they cripple developers and users by not fixing certain problems or not providing similar functionality (after a year of OS X, carbon still lags behind cocoa by not providing things like drawers, transparent sheets, or a combobox control... and ATSUI works so sloooow under Carbon).

The failure of Apple to recognize and conform to their own interface guidelines is also causing some other serious usability problems. If you use iMovie at a res higher than 1024x768 you'll see a bigger waste of space than you have ever claimed tabbed browsing to be <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

My opinion... let the developers do what they want. Give new interface concepts a chance... that's the way the Mac OS has expanded over the years. I like your interface mockup and hope that there will be an IM client that one day implements something similar. If not, you could always make it yourself since Adium is open source, and Fire too, I believe.<hr /></blockquote>Apple isn't breaking their guidelines. You can only break the guidelines if you use the Aqua interface. Developers can choose whatever interface they want for their app, but if they choose the Aqua interface (like OmniWeb or Finder) they should stick to the guidelines to keep it consistent. But now Apple has opened up the brushed metal interface, so there will be guidelines for that too (probably).

Most carbon ports look bad because they are using the Mac OS 8 layouting with Aqua interface elements. You talking about carbon being inferior to Cocoa is just bs. Sure there are a *few* elements which Apple hasn't released the APIs for, but Jaguar will change all that...<hr /></blockquote>Okay, all brushed metal applications aside, you can still definately find some places within Mac OS X where they are using aqua and breaking their guidelines. Look at the disclosure triangle in the Process Viewer for example. I have yet to find another cocoa application that uses a leftover element from Mac OS 9.

I have nothing against Carbon. In fact, I prefer it over Cocoa (I am not refering to the Platinum layout being used with the Aqua interface elements, as I know that is a developer issue related to specific applications). But the fact is that Carbon is not up to feature parity with Cocoa, and there are some things that Apple has not yet done for Carbon developers who want to make really nice OS X applications. Some of the things I mentioned, like translucent sheets for example, can be hacked in carbon applications using calls to set window transparency... but the hacks can only go so far. I know Jaguar will bring some improvements and attempt to further equalize Carbon and Cocoa, but only upon it's final release will anyone know the extent of these improvements. For now, as you said, there are a *few* elements which Apple hasn't released the APIs for. But until they do, minor differences do remain between to two.

asxless · Jun 18, 2002, 10:04 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
I know exactly the reason why I can't convey my points...I'm rude, obnoxious and vulgar. People shift from listening to my points or ideas and focus on the insults I fling at them. I gotta stop this nonsense. I'll try to change for the better, but it's pretty tough when you know the internet has no real boundaries for expressing yourself, especially when nobody knows you and you're posting incognito. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Seriously though...the internet for me is a way to vent the frustration I can't express in real life. I'm really a nice guy in real life...honest. You'd never believe Guy Incognito and Marc were the same person.

<hr /></blockquote>[Off topic]
Guy, That is one of the most self-insightful posts I've read online. It is too bad that many other forum users have not yet realized that the anonymity of the internet does NOT change the fundamentals of human interaction. We still must behave responsibly and credibly online, if we want people to pay attention to our ideas instead of our online behavior. Our 'online identity' develops a 'reputation' based on the content of the posts. By the time we reach "Veteran" level, many regular forum users have already formed a strong opinion about our 'online identity' and react to that instead of post content.

There are at least three major differences between online and real life...
1. You can have more than one 'online identity' (with the same people) at the same time.
2. You can easily start over fresh with a new 'online identity'.
3. You can avoid being physically 'punched out' <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
[back on topic]

I use Tabs and multiple browser windows at the same time. I have several tab 'groups' based on similar content that I load into different browser windows (e.g. News, Financial, OS X Forums, Weather, etc.) Since each group has 3-6 tabs, the top of the window does not become too cluttered.

I wish I could...
*rearrange tabs
*move tabs between browser windows
*open a tab group into a new window from the Bookmark menu (e.g. command select)

asxless in iLand

undotwa · Jun 18, 2002, 10:55 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Okay, all brushed metal applications aside, you can still definately find some places within Mac OS X where they are using aqua and breaking their guidelines. Look at the disclosure triangle in the Process Viewer for example. I have yet to find another cocoa application that uses a leftover element from Mac OS 9.

I have nothing against Carbon. In fact, I prefer it over Cocoa (I am not refering to the Platinum layout being used with the Aqua interface elements, as I know that is a developer issue related to specific applications). But the fact is that Carbon is not up to feature parity with Cocoa, and there are some things that Apple has not yet done for Carbon developers who want to make really nice OS X applications. Some of the things I mentioned, like translucent sheets for example, can be hacked in carbon applications using calls to set window transparency... but the hacks can only go so far. I know Jaguar will bring some improvements and attempt to further equalize Carbon and Cocoa, but only upon it's final release will anyone know the extent of these improvements. For now, as you said, there are a *few* elements which Apple hasn't released the APIs for. But until they do, minor differences do remain between to two.<hr /></blockquote>I'm a little bit confused by your post. First you state you prefer carbon over cocoa, and then you go on why you dislike carbon.

I've actually found another left over Platinum element in a cocoa application, when you unlock a keychain that little blue arrow appears as well.

At the moment only a *few* APIs haven't been publicly released for Carbon (all of them will be available in Jaguar). They are mostly minor APIs like drawers (hardly any people even use them) and transparent sheets (big whoop).

nforcer · Jun 18, 2002, 03:32 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by undotwa:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Okay, all brushed metal applications aside, you can still definately find some places within Mac OS X where they are using aqua and breaking their guidelines. Look at the disclosure triangle in the Process Viewer for example. I have yet to find another cocoa application that uses a leftover element from Mac OS 9.

I have nothing against Carbon. In fact, I prefer it over Cocoa (I am not refering to the Platinum layout being used with the Aqua interface elements, as I know that is a developer issue related to specific applications). But the fact is that Carbon is not up to feature parity with Cocoa, and there are some things that Apple has not yet done for Carbon developers who want to make really nice OS X applications. Some of the things I mentioned, like translucent sheets for example, can be hacked in carbon applications using calls to set window transparency... but the hacks can only go so far. I know Jaguar will bring some improvements and attempt to further equalize Carbon and Cocoa, but only upon it's final release will anyone know the extent of these improvements. For now, as you said, there are a *few* elements which Apple hasn't released the APIs for. But until they do, minor differences do remain between to two.<hr /></blockquote>I'm a little bit confused by your post. First you state you prefer carbon over cocoa, and then you go on why you dislike carbon.

I've actually found another left over Platinum element in a cocoa application, when you unlock a keychain that little blue arrow appears as well.

At the moment only a *few* APIs haven't been publicly released for Carbon (all of them will be available in Jaguar). They are mostly minor APIs like drawers (hardly any people even use them) and transparent sheets (big whoop).<hr /></blockquote>As a whole, I prefer Carbon over Cocoa. But I am able to see the minor things that need fixing or enhancing in Carbon.

Concerning drawers, I think they are neat when used sparingly and for specific functions (Mail.app, Omniweb), and not overused (Watson).

As for translucent sheets, it's just one of those cosmetic things that gets some people and doesn't get others. The day when Carbon apps become entirely indistinguishable from Cocoa apps on the cosmetic level without using any sort of tricks is going to be a very cool one.