[twalker294]

There is a thread on the Apple support site talking about the popping speakers issue with 10.4.10 on Intel Macs. Of course there are a couple of idiots in the thread telling everyone that there is no way the update caused the problem even though about 30 people now have reported the same thing -- no popping before the update but popping after.

It seems that the issue is that the sound output is being put to sleep after about 25 seconds of no sound events and when it wakes up to play a sound you hear a pop and another (more annoying) one when it goes back to sleep. I have this on my C2D iMac and the problem seems to be limited to only Intel Macs, both laptops and iMacs. I don't think it's been reported yet on a Mac Pro.

So anyone else here having this issue?

[Curiosity]

No, but I did the combo update.

[Mr_E]

My mini started doing this yesterday... I didn't think much of it, but now that you mention it - it's never happened before..

[michael_l]

my macbook is doing it too. didn't make the connection until this thread, but it's definitely new.

[tiger]

10.4.10 is the cause of this? I thought it had something to do with the speakers themselves but yes, My JBL speakers keep popping constantly.

[gorgonzola]

Getting this too. Really annoying. Reverting to 10.4.9 didn't seem to help either, strangely, but the reverter I used may have not been totally up to snuff.

[Hal Itosis]

I noted some low-frequency popping on a PowerBook G4 and an iMac G5, however...
that was about a month ago in 10.4.9 just after getting QuickTime 7.1.6 and it seemed
to go away on its own. Didn't test extensively, but only noticed it while playing iTunes.

Might not help much... but that's definitely the same sound I heard (early to mid-May).
Might be QuickTime related?

[hmurchison2001]

Yup...I've noticed my speakers popping more. I thought I had my volume set too high but now I'm glad to know it's not me.

bring on 10.4.11 !!!

[g00ba]

The speaker pop in 10.4.10 is caused by updated power management in AppleHDA.kext. It saves some battery life, but causes pops in some hardware.

1) replace /System/Library/Extensions/AppleHDA.kext with the one from 10.4.9
2) in the terminal, type 'touch /System/Library/Extensions' (this rebuilds the kext cache)
3) reboot

No more popping.

Disclaimer: No thorough testing has been done on this solution -- it works, but if there are dependencies version dependencies across different kexts, you may introduce other problems or instability. I haven't noticed any problems.

[Hal Itosis]

Originally Posted by g00ba 

The speaker pop in 10.4.10 is caused by more aggressive power management in AppleHDA.kext. It saves some battery life, but causes pops in some hardware that lacks noise suppression circuitry.

1) replace /System/Library/Extensions/AppleHDA.kext with the one from 10.4.9
2) in the terminal, type 'touch /System/Library/Extensions' (this rebuilds the kext cache)
3) reboot

No more popping.

$ ls -lo /System/Library/Extensions/AppleHDA.kext
ls: /System/Library/Extensions/AppleHDA.kext: No such file or directory
$ locate AppleHDA.kext
$

No such critter (on ppc G4 or G5).

[g00ba]

Originally Posted by Hal Itosis 

$ ls -lo /System/Library/Extensions/AppleHDA.kext
ls: /System/Library/Extensions/AppleHDA.kext: No such file or directory
$ locate AppleHDA.kext
$

No such critter (on ppc G4 or G5).

Correct. This issue (and solution) only applies to Intel hardware.

[Big Mac]

Woot

[WOPR]

Count me in too, my C2D iMac is popping and it's very annoying.

[Kar98]

To repeat what I said over there:

It only pops if:

- you have an Intel-based Mac.
- with whatever mobile audio chipset Apple is using for laptops and the mini.
- that's connected to external speakers.
- and about 20 to 30 seconds have passed since the computer made the last sound, or right before it's going to make a sound.
- and you've updated to 10.4.10 by whatever means (software update or combo update doesn't matter).

...because for some reason or other, Apple applied the power saver function that would be useful for laptops running on batteries to all computers with that particular audio chipset, whether they actually are running on batteries or not.

[rnton]

Cheers g00ba! This worked nice. I have downgraded also about another 8 extensions before I found your post. Is this likely to make my system particularly unstable?, and would people advise upgrading the other extensions back up to the 10.4.10 versions?

[g00ba]

Originally Posted by rnton 

Cheers g00ba! This worked nice. I have downgraded also about another 8 extensions before I found your post. Is this likely to make my system particularly unstable?, and would people advise upgrading the other extensions back up to the 10.4.10 versions?

Often, kexts are added/updated because new hardware releases require them, but I'm sure there are bug fixes or enhancements as well. I would upgrade everything else back to the 10.4.10 versions to minimize trouble.

[megatronbomb]

It's been driving me crazy for two days now, I'm glad to at least know what the issue is.

[Sijmen]

That popping sound also happens with my PB. Right now I'm listening to the OST of Pirates of the Caribbean. A few moments ago the sound output suddenly went from 100% to 50% with a loud 'snap'. When I reset the volume to 100% the sound output went from 100 to 150 and back to 100%. Scared the **** out of me.

[frdmfghtr]

I haven't heard the popping on my C2D MacBook when using...

(1) Internal speakers

(2) Headphones on the audio jack

(3) External speakers via a USB audio I/O box (By ADS Tech)

I have the 10.4.10 update via Software Update.

[frdmfghtr]

Originally Posted by twalker294 

There is a thread on the Apple support site talking about the popping speakers issue with 10.4.10 on Intel Macs. Of course there are a couple of idiots in the thread telling everyone that there is no way the update caused the problem even though about 30 people now have reported the same thing -- no popping before the update but popping after.

I saw some of those posts and they aren't saying "there's now way that the update caused it"; they are saying there is no conclusive proof the update caused it. One of them actually made a good point--the update might not have caused the problem, but revealed the problem. There's a difference between the two points.

If you think about it this way, it is possible that they are actually correct:

The audio system should not pop when power is turned on or off. Prior to the 10.4.10 update, the audio system was powered continuously, so the improper operation was never observed. The 10.4.10 update turns it on and off as needed to help save battery power, revealing the popping sound caused by a defect in hardware.

So while the problem started with the update, it's not necessarily the CAUSE of the problem. The real cause could be a defect in the audio hardware, revealed by a change in operation controlled by software.

[Hal Itosis]

Originally Posted by frdmfghtr 

I have the 10.4.10 update via Software Update.

Which QuickTime version?

[voo]

Originally Posted by Kar98 

To repeat what I said over there:

It only pops if:

- you have an Intel-based Mac.

Is that official, or your own assumption? as according to...

Originally Posted by Sijmen 

That popping sound also happens with my PB. Right now I'm listening to the OST of Pirates of the Caribbean. A few moments ago the sound output suddenly went from 100% to 50% with a loud 'snap'. When I reset the volume to 100% the sound output went from 100 to 150 and back to 100%. Scared the **** out of me.

This is the main reason I have stayed on 10.4.9 (PPC, not mobile), the last I need is popping music if I go to 10.4.10. I wont be upgrading until I know 100% for sure.

[frdmfghtr]

Originally Posted by Hal Itosis 

Which QuickTime version?

According to the "About QuickTime Player" info box, 7.1.6.

[Sijmen]

Originally Posted by voo 

This is the main reason I have stayed on 10.4.9 (PPC, not mobile), the last I need is popping music if I go to 10.4.10. I wont be upgrading until I know 100% for sure.

True, I haven't been able to just listen to music today the way I did last night. Tonight I'll have time to let the computer just sit and play music, maybe it'll happen again, maybe not. It happened when I wasn't touching the PB. It was just playing music while I was working. I've listened to the OST at least six times and that shift in volume is not in the audio file.
Don't get paranoid because of a single incident. I reported it because it scared me ****less. When the volume went down with a snap(like a short circuit in a speaker, a shrill sound), the first thing that came to my mind was this thread. Turning the volume up and then the computer upping it some more(I work in an office with 4 desks but there's never anybody around, so it's quiet) in a space with only me, had me sitting stiff for a few seconds. It took maybe those two seconds for the computer to realize that the volume was up to much and then it lowered again. But the upping and lowering didn't involve any snapping or popping like it did when the volume went down the first time. Anyhow, I don't hope it happens again.

[Kar98]

Originally Posted by voo 

Is that official, or your own assumption?

That is the Cliff's Notes of the 20 pages/297 posts thread over at Apple Discussions.

Erratic behavior _while_ playing music is another issue entirely.

[Kar98]

Originally Posted by frdmfghtr 

--the update might not have caused the problem, but revealed the problem. There's a difference between the two points.

No, there isn't.

The audio system should not pop when power is turned on or off. Prior to the 10.4.10 update, the audio system was powered continuously, so the improper operation was never observed. The 10.4.10 update turns it on and off as needed to help save battery power, revealing the popping sound caused by a defect in hardware.

It always _did_ power down battery-powered computers, but there it wasn't noticeable on account of smaller speakers. It's not supposed to power down the audio system when on AC power.

So while the problem started with the update, it's not necessarily the CAUSE of the problem.

Yes, it is. The update introduced a new behavior = cause of the problem.

The real cause could be a defect in the audio hardware, revealed by a change in operation controlled by software.

Well, that would be even worse for Apple. Seems with all the attention to the gorram iPhone and iPods, they don't give a flying about their computer customers anymore. Oh wait, they did drop "computer" from their name.

[indigoimac]

Same problem on a C2D iMac, don't think it's an issue on my MacBook Pro, but I dunno, I usually have the speakers muted, lol

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by voo 

This is the main reason I have stayed on 10.4.9 (PPC, not mobile), the last I need is popping music if I go to 10.4.10. I wont be upgrading until I know 100% for sure.

This is why I never install any Apple updates unless it actually fixes something I need fixed. 10.4.8 is working just fine for me ... .9 and .10 didn't offer anything convincing enough to install and run the risk that Apple's QA missed something(s).

i prefer not to do Apple's QA for them. I can appreciate that they can't test for every possible machine type, but you'd think they could at least test for their most recent and popular machines (Intel MacBooks and Minis), especially those being used to convince Windows users to switch to the Mac (and presumably less buggy) platform.

[Kar98]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

i prefer not to do Apple's QA for them. I can appreciate that they can't test for every possible machine type...

Why the hell not? It's not like they offer thousands of different models. Just 5 basic models.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by WOPR 

Count me in too, my C2D iMac is popping and it's very annoying.

I get the popping sound on the same kind of machine after updating to 10.4.10 as well. Very annoying.

However it occurs it only started happening *after* I installed the update. Makes me suspect it was the fault of the update, directly or indirectly.

Apple QA really does suck.

V

[WOPR]

The MIDI Audio Setup trick works on my iMac.

[frdmfghtr]

Opps, dupe post...

[frdmfghtr]

Originally Posted by Kar98 

No, there isn't.


Yes, it is. The update introduced a new behavior = cause of the problem.

I have to disagree. Let's say you have bad windshield wipers. You never find out, because the weather is constantly dry. Now, one day it rains, and your wipers leave streaks. Are the streaks caused by the rain, since that was the only change from one day to the next? No, the streaks are caused by bad wiper blades. Driving on dry days will not fix your wipers; it will simply avoid the need to use them.

I actually made this mistake recently trying to debug some LabVIEW code. The external indicator lights on a protoboard weren't lighting up as expected, so I checked all my code inside and out several times, convinced it was a software issue. When I finally got around to checking the actual hardware output with a multimeter, I found the problem. I turned on the power to the protoboard, and all was well again.

I agree that a hardware fault would be a bigger pain for Apple, since it can't truly be fixed by a software revision. It can be worked around, but not really fixed. Driving only in dry weather is a workaround for bad wiper blades, not a fix.

[Kar98]

Originally Posted by frdmfghtr 

I have to disagree. Let's say you have bad windshield wipers. You never find out, because the weather is constantly dry. Now, one day it rains, and your wipers leave streaks. Are the streaks caused by the rain, since that was the only change from one day to the next? No, the streaks are caused by bad wiper blades. Driving on dry days will not fix your wipers; it will simply avoid the need to use them.

Flawed analogy. To stay in your picture, let's say you replace the windshield wipers on your car with different ones, and those make popping noises as you activate them, whereas the older ones didn't. Clearly a fault with the updated windshield wipers

[frdmfghtr]

Originally Posted by Kar98 

Flawed analogy. To stay in your picture, let's say you replace the windshield wipers on your car with different ones, and those make popping noises as you activate them, whereas the older ones didn't. Clearly a fault with the updated windshield wipers

Quite correct, and thank you for reinforcing my point; there could be a HARDWARE problem, i.e blades that pop when used. If you never used the popping blades, would you ever know about the hardware fault? Do you "fix" the popping by never using them?

Going back to the sound issue...suppose the fault lies with a bad filter capacitor. Did the software revision cause the bad capacitor? No, it revealed the bad capacitor; the cap isn't doing its job when the software cycles power to the audio circuits as it is designed to do. Will another software revision fix the capacitor? No, that's impossible. A software revision may cure the SYMPTOM by not cycling power, but that's not fixing the flaw.

I'm not saying that it is impossible that that software update caused the problem, nor am I saying that the hardware defect certainly caused the problem. But until you can rule out either one with 100% certainty (which has not been done yet), you must consider both.

[frdmfghtr]

Oh, and you are right, the wiper analogy isn't particularly good. Maybe this one is better.

Whenever you walk into a room, the lights switch on, whether you need them or not. When you leave the room, they switch off, and make a popping noise. you never know it, because you're not in the room to hear it.

Now, you change the way the light switch operates; the lights turn on when you enter the room, but of you don't need them, they switch off after a certain amount of time. You walk in to the room, but you don't need the lights on, so after about a minute they switch off, and you hear the noise.

To parallel this with the current problem: You start your Mac (enter the room) and the lights come on (audio powers up). You leave the room (shut down your Mac) but never hear the noise (your Mac is powered off or in sleep).

The behavior of the light switch changes (the software is updated). You enter the room (start your Mac) but you don't need the lights (don't need the audio). After a minute or so, the lights shut off (audio powers down) and you hear the noise (speaker pop).

Did the change in operation cause the flaw? In our Mac's case, the bad noise circuitry was never detected because it was never used.

I hope I made my point.

[Wiskedjak]

Whatever the case, whether 10.4.10 caused the problem or exposed it, it's fairly clear that Apple QA dropped the ball (again); either faulty code slipped by, or faulty hardware slipped by. Which one it is doesn't much matter to me, so long as Apple acknowledges and fixes the problem. Of course, Apple acknowledging the problem will be the trick and I'm waiting for the discussion on the Apple boards to disappear.

[Kar98]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

...Apple acknowledging the problem...

I'm waiting for the discussion on the Apple boards to disappear.

Well, the thread in question has already been locked.

[Drew]

I never noticed it before untill i tried putting my volume at full. Not a big issue, but oh well.

[voo]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

This is why I never install any Apple updates unless it actually fixes something I need fixed. 10.4.8 is working just fine for me ... .9 and .10 didn't offer anything convincing enough to install and run the risk that Apple's QA missed something(s).

i prefer not to do Apple's QA for them. I can appreciate that they can't test for every possible machine type, but you'd think they could at least test for their most recent and popular machines (Intel MacBooks and Minis), especially those being used to convince Windows users to switch to the Mac (and presumably less buggy) platform.

There really doesn't seem much to the update for.

- RAW camera support
- Mounting and unmounting external USB devices
- Support for 3rd party software applications
- Security updates

I don't use RAW.
I've not had issues with USB devices.
I don't know whats the support for 3rd party apps. Which wont apply to me most likely and it doesn't state what the security updates are unless its the webkit Security Update 2007-006 that was released standalone. Which is the only one I have installed.

But yes, I know what you're saying. Why fix something thats not broken!

[WOPR]

I can't believe there's any issue over the cause - all the Macs in question were fine until 10.4.10, and now they're not. End of!

[WOPR]

Oh and the Midi Audio Setup fix has failed me, even Sleep seems to reset it. GRRRRR

[ichad]

I took the file AppleHDA.kext out of extensions - reebooted - but was unable to rebuild the extensions folder through terminal as I dont have permissions - I placed the AppleHDA.kext file back into Extensions ok but I still dont have sound in my OS, even after reboot - any ideas?

[ophiochos]

yep, count me in. My macbook pops regularly now, ever since 10.4. Not sure how to revert to an extension I no longer have so looks like I have to wait for the fix from Apple (there will be a fix...please...).

more philosophically, on the 'nature' of the problem (cause/exposure), is a problem a problem if it is not a problem? Or only when it becomes a problem?


Since philosophers and academics can't agree on what causation is, I doubt the Mac forum will solve it. but do keep arguing, it's fascinating...(analogies are so slippery, don't you think? Heres' mine: I will die one day, that could be said to be a problem. But it's not a problem until it happens. So is my dying a problem now? or only then? and will I mind?)

[frdmfghtr]

Yeah, analogies can hurt and help (sometimes at the same time!)

I'll disagree that it's a philosophical difference though, and stick to my argument that it's an important distinction. If you say the update CAUSED the problem, yo have already ruled out the potential for bad hardware and may overlook a hardware defect that didn't manifest itself until the mode of operation was changed (on continuously versus cycled on and off). By accepting that the update REVEALED the fault, you haven't improperly eliminated a potential source of the problem

In any case, I think it's been beaten pretty much to a bloody pulp. Some Intel-based machines get popping sounds on external speakers connected to the audio port, and Apple's engineers need to find the root cause, hardware or software.

[JustinHorne]

My popping (c2d Blackbook) started after the update install.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by frdmfghtr 

Yeah, analogies can hurt and help (sometimes at the same time!)

I'll disagree that it's a philosophical difference though, and stick to my argument that it's an important distinction. If you say the update CAUSED the problem, yo have already ruled out the potential for bad hardware and may overlook a hardware defect that didn't manifest itself until the mode of operation was changed (on continuously versus cycled on and off). By accepting that the update REVEALED the fault, you haven't improperly eliminated a potential source of the problem

In any case, I think it's been beaten pretty much to a bloody pulp. Some Intel-based machines get popping sounds on external speakers connected to the audio port, and Apple's engineers need to find the root cause, hardware or software.

What is the problem? You could apply that half-wit 'logic' to any bug that comes with an update. WTF are you doing wasting our time with your retard attention-whoring.

There is a problem with the 10.4.10 update on Intel Macs. End of ****ing story.

Idiot.

V

[Railroader]

Now that was uncalled for voodoo. Name calling and rude and offensive posts are not welcome here.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Now that was uncalled for voodoo. Name calling and rude and offensive posts are not welcome here.

There is a time for everything.

Say Railroader, nice you found this thread after I pointed it out to you, days after it was created. Well done. Not blood-hound smart, more chiuaua, but hey.

Oh and thank you for the entertainment value hehe it's not like your opinion means anything

V

[Sijmen]

voodoo, I guess you're not much of a philosopher.

Interesting debate!