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NTSB recommends complete cell phone ban while driving
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OAW
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Dec 13, 2011, 06:06 PM
 
Terrible accident in Missouri back in Aug. 2010. A 19 year old kid in a pickup truck rear ends a tractor trailer at 55 MPH. The tractor trailer had either slowed down considerably or stopped due to highway construction. Not one but two separate school buses then plowed into the wreckage. The 19 year old in the pickup truck, who happened to be the son of a Missouri State Representative and a member of the University of Missouri football team, ended up dead. A 15 year old girl on one of the buses was also killed. Because the 19 year old had sent/received 11 texts in the 11 minutes preceding the accident the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) used that as a pretext for formally recommending a complete ban on non-emergency cell phone use by drivers, including with hands free devices. Never mind that the drivers of the two separate school buses weren't using cell phones at the time they crashed into the wreckage. Never mind that this particular stretch of highway is notorious for just these type of accidents because constant congestion and construction often causes traffic flow to change suddenly. For now, this is a recommendation to the states only but it's conceivable that the federal government could use the big stick of withholding federal highway funds to compel the states to adopt such a ban.

Sensible recommendation or the "nanny state run amok"?

NTSB recommends full ban on use of cell phones while driving - CNN.com

After fatal Missouri crash, feds want ban on cell phones while driving

OAW
     
imitchellg5
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Dec 13, 2011, 06:11 PM
 
The fact that some states still don't ban cellphone use while driving completely astounds me.
     
olePigeon
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Dec 13, 2011, 06:24 PM
 
NTSB recommends complete cell phone ban while driving.
Good.
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Dec 13, 2011, 06:30 PM
 
I wish they would ban driving altogether, and force the invention/adoption of automated vehicles. Then people could text, eat and get drunk all they wanted to during their commute.
     
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Dec 13, 2011, 06:35 PM
 
It's a start. Now they just need to make the US driving test 10x more difficult.
     
OAW  (op)
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Dec 13, 2011, 06:38 PM
 
Something else to take into consideration IMO ....

Traffic fatalities fall to lowest levels since 1949

How is using a cell phone with a bluetooth headset or other handsfree device materially different from holding a conversation with a passenger?

Are we going to ban people from interacting with their stereos or navigation systems that are built in to their vehicles?

What's to be done about the various females we encounter on a regular basis who put on makeup looking in the rearview mirror while they drive?

My gut reaction is that "distracted driving" isn't something that lends itself very well to legislation. The fact of the matter is that there are way too many things that can distract a driver ... and you can't pass legislation outlawing all of them.

OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Dec 13, 2011 at 06:45 PM. )
     
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Dec 13, 2011, 06:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by Demonhood View Post
It's a start. Now they just need to make the US driving test 10x more difficult.
This, too.
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Dec 13, 2011, 06:49 PM
 
I completely agree with a complete ban on cell phone use while driving. I'm one of the better drivers out there and if I can't hold a phone conversation (even hands free) with someone while driving without it impacting my performance, then neither can you.

ABS. Airbags. Better brakes. Better impact protection.

Originally Posted by OAW View Post
How is using a cell phone with a bluetooth headset or other handsfree device materially different from holding a conversation with a passenger?
The passenger is in the car, can generally sense the flow of the situation and generally provides an extra set of eyes on the road to warn of danger.
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Dec 13, 2011, 07:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post

How is using a cell phone with a bluetooth headset or other handsfree device materially different from holding a conversation with a passenger?

Are we going to ban people from interacting with their stereos or navigation systems that are built in to their vehicles?
Studies have shown that cell phone use, whether using a hands-free device or not, is significantly more distracting than the other potential activities you described, including conversations with passengers.

Drivers Distracted More By Cell Phones Than By Passengers

Why Cell Phone Conversations Distract Drivers - Harvard Health Publications

Study: All cell phones distract drivers - CNN

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Dec 13, 2011, 07:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
My gut reaction is that "distracted driving" isn't something that lends itself very well to legislation. The fact of the matter is that there are way too many things that can distract a driver ... and you can't pass legislation outlawing all of them.
Sure you can. Automated vehicles.

How is using a cell phone with a bluetooth headset or other handsfree device materially different from holding a conversation with a passenger?

Are we going to ban people from interacting with their stereos or navigation systems that are built in to their vehicles?

What's to be done about the various females we encounter on a regular basis who put on makeup looking in the rearview mirror while they drive?
Just because we can't solve everything doesn't mean we shouldn't try to solve anything. You could use the same arguments to condone drunk driving, stop giving licenses or testing anyone, and stop all traffic enforcement altogether. "If we can't stop people from daydreaming then we might as well not enforce speed limits or yellow lines, because preventing incompetent driving is a lost cause." No, we should still do what we can even if it's less than 100%.

Even automated vehicles wouldn't be 100%, but we should do it anyway
( Last edited by Uncle Skeleton; Dec 13, 2011 at 07:45 PM. )
     
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Dec 13, 2011, 09:17 PM
 
Are there already laws on the books for distracted driving? I think cell phone use falls under that, and if you cause an accident due to cell phone, texting, big mac, makeup, shaving, reading the Boston Globe (seen that, for real), changing the radio, talking to your kid, or yelling at your dog (Stephen King's assailant) then that law should cover it.
     
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Dec 13, 2011, 09:22 PM
 
Are there? I don't know of them. But again, wouldn't that same logic apply to drunk driving? Do you think we shouldn't ban DUI specifically, because it is redundant with distracted or reckless driving?
     
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Dec 14, 2011, 12:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
The fact that some states still don't ban cellphone use while driving completely astounds me.
I've seen some unbelievable stuff from drivers on the interstate at rush hour. It's unreal how stupid people stay alive doing what they do.
     
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Dec 14, 2011, 02:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
My gut reaction is that "distracted driving" isn't something that lends itself very well to legislation. The fact of the matter is that there are way too many things that can distract a driver ... and you can't pass legislation outlawing all of them.
This.

And for anyone who can't have a hands-free conversation and still drive their car properly (heaven forbid you're actually chewing gum at the same time too)- please, stay the hell far, far away from any road I'm on. In fact, DON'T drive.
     
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Dec 14, 2011, 04:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE View Post
And for anyone who can't have a hands-free conversation and still drive their car properly (heaven forbid you're actually chewing gum at the same time too)- please, stay the hell far, far away from any road I'm on. In fact, DON'T drive.
Unless you're Schumacher, you can't do it. You may think you can, but you can't. What's happening if you think you can is that enough of your brain isn't being dedicated to driving in the first place, thus you're able to use the spare capacity to hold a hands-free conversation.

Conclusion: You're either a supremely good driver (doubtful) or you're extremely poor and don't realise it because you're blinded by arrogance.

Me? I can powerslide an SUV at 100 MPH safely, I can tell you if the tyres are more than 1 psi away from their correct pressure, whether the suspension is at the right setting, whether the wheels are toed in correctly or not... ...heck, if you give me a car I know I can tell you what make of tyres are on it. Just by sitting at the wheel and driving.

You? You're a rider, not a driver. Along for the ride, not really in control. That's why you have spare brain capacity to talk to people on a hands-free. And it's people like you who cause accidents.
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CRASH HARDDRIVE
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Dec 14, 2011, 05:46 AM
 
Stick with public transit, Doofy. Personal automobiles aren't for everyone.
     
Doofy
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Dec 14, 2011, 06:38 AM
 
You'd shit yourself on our roads, Harddrive. Everyone around you driving like they mean it, while you'd be busy trying not to spill your Starbucks.
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Dec 14, 2011, 07:52 AM
 
I am firmly convinced that it takes very little effort to convince Texas officials that one is qualified to drive. When my son took driver training, he took it seriously, studied hard and did well on the written and road tests. He has been a careful and attentive driver. But... A couple of weeks ago a guy in an S10 somehow managed to NOT see the bright red car I was driving (my wife's S2000) and changed lanes into my bumper. He had no visible phone, no loud blaring music, yet he managed to run into a well lit, brightly colored car. Distracted? I think "idioted" is a better explanation.

Every day I see people driving inappropriately. How inappropriately? Like "Joe Dumptruck Driver" maneuvering his 9 or 10 yard truck like it's his Eclipse. Like people who wait and wait for an opening to turn into the far lane, only to aggressively move back over into the near lane. I'm getting angry just listing these...

Qualifying to drive on public streets should be much harder here. Drivers should take the activity of driving MUCH more seriously. And a whole lot of people here who obviously cannot safely walk and chew gum at the same time should be permanently banned from driving. As for using a phone while driving, I see a big problem with people who put the telephone conversation ahead of what they're doing, rather than the other way around. When I drive, I have my headset on and anyone who calls me is at most third priority-first is what I'm doing and second is watching what all those idiots around me are doing. Of course, I can go for more than 30 seconds without sharing some insignificant detail with someone else, so maybe that's got something to do with it...

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Dec 14, 2011, 08:54 AM
 
A big problem over here is that drivers are too good a source of tax revenue for the government.

Instead of making drivers better, the government, the road planners, the police, the courts and the driving standards agency choose instead to try to legislate to make life easier for poor drivers. A driving license is treated like some kind of right instead of the privilege it should be.

It might take them a few goes, but any imbecile can get a license in this country. Our test doesn't cover driving in country lanes which are completely different to driving in cities and then we get people from the city who think its clever and/or safe to drive at stupid speeds through narrow, winding roads with blind corners. Tests don't cover motorways either which is why ~80% of drivers on british roads have no idea how they are actually supposed to work.

They aren't tough enough on drink driving either. Not even nearly. Courts often see it as a mitigating circumstance when accidents happen. Then when someone does something stupid and gets killed, their family moans on and on about the stretch of road they died on being an 'accident black spot' whether it is or not until the local council or whoever reduces the speed limit just to make them feel better.

I'm getting sick and tired of government legislating for stupidity.

As for hands free talking, we've had rules banning hands-on phone use for some time now but technically you are allowed to use a hands free kit. By technically I mean you won't get fined if a cop sees you talking to yourself while driving, but if you crash, the cops and/or the insurance companies will check your phone records and if it says you were on a call when or near when the crash happened they will do their utmost to f**k you for it. Same if you sent a text or posted a status update but thats fair enough.

I can talk to someone while driving but its usually just to arrange to speak later on. Most calls I get while driving are for work and trying to walk someone through a solution on their computer takes away a lot of your focus. You only notice when you arrive at your destination and don't remember half your journey.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Dec 14, 2011, 09:46 AM
 
Yeah, we NEED TO BE REGULATED TO DEATH. More BS.
     
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Dec 14, 2011, 11:18 AM
 
Excellent argument, as always.

---

Not-so-coinicentally, I ran into this, this morning. I take the Interstate to work, and for some reason someone was merging really slow this morning. By the time they were on for a while they might have been doing the speed limit at best. Finally manage to pass them and what do I see? Person talking on their cell phone. It used to be someone driving slow on the Interstate was always old, but I'd say chances are greater its just an idiot on a cellphone nowadays.

Edit: Also, a full ban will never happen.
     
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Dec 14, 2011, 01:02 PM
 
I think NTSB should ban everyone from driving except me, which is how I perceive the roadways anyway. If you guys are nice, I'll start a lottery system or maybe issue vouchers.
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Dec 14, 2011, 01:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
The fact that some states still don't ban cellphone use while driving completely astounds me.
Are there reliable statistics showing that states with cell phone bans have fewer accidents per 100,000 miles driven, than states where it is permitted?

Separately, I know that traffic fatalities have decreased in the last 60 years, but what about the number of accidents? Fatalities may have gone down because of airbags, seat belts, and safer designs and impact points, but none of those would have prevented the accident in the first place. Only improved brakes would actually prevent an accident.
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Dec 14, 2011, 01:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Me? I can powerslide an SUV at 100 MPH safely, I can tell you if the tyres are more than 1 psi away from their correct pressure, whether the suspension is at the right setting, whether the wheels are toed in correctly or not... ...heck, if you give me a car I know I can tell you what make of tyres are on it. Just by sitting at the wheel and driving.
What good is powersliding at 100 going to do you in stop-n-go turnpike traffic?
What does it matter what brand of tire your car has, when you're stuck in gridlock?

I check my tires with my eyes and then a gauge, I see no reason why being able to physically sense the pressure or the brand makes you an awesome driver. It makes you a tire psychic, which is great, but has no bearing on driving ability.

As for suspension: <puts fingers to forehead>Hmm, car is swaying like a hula dancer. Yep, suspension is shot. Oh well.</psych>



Are you just channeling Cash to take the p!ss or something?
     
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Dec 14, 2011, 01:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE View Post
This.

And for anyone who can't have a hands-free conversation and still drive their car properly (heaven forbid you're actually chewing gum at the same time too)- please
Preach it, brother. And for anyone who can't have a few drinks while still driving their car properly, screw them too. I can drive flawlessly on any less than 4 drinks, so you can too!

But then again I'm safety conscious so I always wear my helmet.
 


stay the hell far, far away from any road I'm on. In fact, DON'T drive.
Automated vehicles!
     
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Dec 14, 2011, 01:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Instead of making drivers better, the government, the road planners, the police, the courts and the driving standards agency choose instead to try to legislate to make life easier for poor drivers. A driving license is treated like some kind of right instead of the privilege it should be.
The California DMV attempted to update their written and practical exam. The new driving test included parallel parking, freeway merging, and collision avoidance. They also reduced the number wrong answers on the written exam from 7 to 3.

It lasted for about 3 months. When my brother was getting his license, I was talking to a driving instructor during his lunch break. He said he loved the new requirements, but it wasn't logistically possible. After the first month they dropped the parallel parking (again) and the collision avoidance because many of the rural DMVs were not equipped to do either. So they kept the freeway merging, but found that with just the freeway merging, it was adding 20 minutes to each driver's test. If you combine that with 40 to 100 people a day trying to do their test, they were backlogged for 6 months.

So after 3 months they just canceled all the new implementations. Now it's back to the point where a 4-year-old could pass the driving test if they could reach the pedals.
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Doofy
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Dec 14, 2011, 02:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
I check my tires with my eyes and then a gauge, I see no reason why being able to physically sense the pressure or the brand makes you an awesome driver. It makes you a tire psychic, which is great, but has no bearing on driving ability.
This is exactly my point. If you're not using all of your powers of observation to constantly assess the road around you and your car's performance, how are you being a good driver?
If you get a slow puncture after setting off and you can't tell that one of your front tyres is going down as you drive, how are you not a danger to everyone else on the road?

Even my 72-year-old mom can tell when her tyres are out by 1 PSI. Why can't you*? Probably because your concentration is elsewhere (i.e. on your phone conversation or your Starbucks).

* Everyone, generally.

Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Are you just channeling Cash to take the p!ss or something?
Nope, I'm being serious.
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Dec 14, 2011, 02:00 PM
 
Imagine how much money they would save on driving exams if all the cars were automated...
     
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Dec 14, 2011, 02:03 PM
 
Speaking of freeway merging ....

One of my biggest driving pet peeves (besides people who insist on hogging the fast lane while doing the speed limit ) are people who will completely STOP IN THE MERGE LANE and hold up everybody while they look back and wait for an opening to merge into traffic at that very spot. The point is not to merge into oncoming highway traffic starting from ZERO MPH. It amazes me how many traffic jams could be avoided if people weren't so stuck on stupid and actually utilized the merge lane properly.

OAW
     
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Dec 14, 2011, 02:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
Imagine how much money they would save on driving exams if all the cars were automated...
Imagine how scared you'll be when you realise that Billy Bob has "modified" his automation system a little with aftermarket hacks from India, and he's coming the other way with a closing speed of 140 MPH.
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Dec 14, 2011, 02:13 PM
 
It'll never happen. There's simply too much money to be made from driving while talking on the phone (on a hands-free unit, of course), both in terms of having integrated Bluetooth be a selling feature that cars are sold with, and the amount of business that is done by salespeople driving between cities making calls on their hands-free systems.
     
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Dec 14, 2011, 02:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
The California DMV attempted to update their written and practical exam. The new driving test included parallel parking, freeway merging, and collision avoidance. They also reduced the number wrong answers on the written exam from 7 to 3.

It lasted for about 3 months. When my brother was getting his license, I was talking to a driving instructor during his lunch break. He said he loved the new requirements, but it wasn't logistically possible. After the first month they dropped the parallel parking (again) and the collision avoidance because many of the rural DMVs were not equipped to do either. So they kept the freeway merging, but found that with just the freeway merging, it was adding 20 minutes to each driver's test. If you combine that with 40 to 100 people a day trying to do their test, they were backlogged for 6 months.

So after 3 months they just canceled all the new implementations. Now it's back to the point where a 4-year-old could pass the driving test if they could reach the pedals.
So you put the price of the exams up and hire more instructors. Easy.


The theory part of the UK driving test is pointlessly dumb. When I sat mine there was a 45 minute time limit I think. I took my time, went through my answers three times over and was still out in under 6 minutes. I'm inclined to think that anyone who fails it once should be banned from driving for 5 years before they even start. Then it might serve a worthwhile purpose at least.

Parallel parking is included in the test over here. Most people still suck at it though. There are so many 'manoeuvres' (5 when I did it) you have to learn and in your test you have to perform 2 or 3 of them depending on what opportunities arise and how the examiner feels.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Dec 14, 2011, 02:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
Imagine how much money they would save on driving exams if all the cars were automated...
You'd be wiping out a whole industry for instructors too.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Dec 14, 2011, 02:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Even my 72-year-old mom can tell when her tyres are out by 1 PSI. Why can't you*? Probably because your concentration is elsewhere (i.e. on your phone conversation or your Starbucks).
1psi? not likely, but if I was getting a flat I've noticed. My car has a slow leak in one tire that I have to top off every once in a while. 10 is noticeable. Why can't I notice 1psi? Not trying. Not caring. Not because my concentration is elsewhere, but more that I've learned to ignore half the rattles and clanks of my car, and only pay attention to the new and different squeaks, otherwise spend the entire trip in a deathgrip worried about pieces falling off.

I did get a slow leak once that took a while to notice it... because I was driving through 10 inches of snow. Thought the poor handling was due to the snow. Does this prove your case or mine? I don't know. In that situation I definitely wouldn't have been using a cell phone and would likely have told any passengers to STFU.

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Dec 14, 2011, 03:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
You'd be wiping out a whole industry for instructors too.
Um... yes? That's the whole point of saving money. In Oregon and New Jersey you still have to sit in your car while a mouth-breathing high school drop-out pumps your gas for you, just to prevent an army of gas station attendants from losing their "industry." Dumb.
     
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Dec 14, 2011, 03:12 PM
 
If there's anything science fiction has taught me, is that it's never a good idea to let the cars have self-control.
     
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Dec 14, 2011, 03:18 PM
 
I don't see what the big deal is. I'm posting this from my iPhone while driving down the highway and I d

My sig is 1 pixel too big.
     
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Dec 14, 2011, 03:21 PM
 
^^^^^

Awesome!!!!

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Dec 14, 2011, 03:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
Um... yes? That's the whole point of saving money. In Oregon and New Jersey you still have to sit in your car while a mouth-breathing high school drop-out pumps your gas for you, just to prevent an army of gas station attendants from losing their "industry." Dumb.
You mean to tell me that full-service gas stations still exist in the US? Haven't seen one of those in decades.

OAW
     
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Dec 14, 2011, 03:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
You mean to tell me that full-service gas stations still exist in the US? Haven't seen one of those in decades.

OAW
Aren't they required by law in New Jersey or something?

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Dec 14, 2011, 03:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
You mean to tell me that full-service gas stations still exist in the US? Haven't seen one of those in decades.

OAW
That's because you've been fortunate enough to stay away from NJ.
     
OAW  (op)
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Dec 14, 2011, 03:32 PM
 
Well in days gone by I traveled a lot for work. Never did a gig in NJ or Oregon though.

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Dec 14, 2011, 03:48 PM
 
I don't think the cell phone itself is the problem but the drivers. BC enacted a partial cell phone ban at the start of this year. In order to use a cell phone it must be hands free. New Drivers and Novice drivers are banned from using cell phones at all.

The results thus far, most people ignore it. Still see people holding up cell phones daily. And a side effect of the law has resulted in people texting or using devices far below the window to avoid being seen causing a greater level of distraction and longer periods of people not looking at the road.

I used to think some sort of jamming device built into cars would be a good idea to put the cell phone issue to rest but at the same time the ability to dial out to 911 while driving is more important then blocking calls. I think cell phones should have a system inside of it to prevent SMS and normal calls while driving but at the same time people would just root or jailbreak the phones to get that ability back. So I cant see anything actually being done to stop it. The real answer is improving the safety of cars such as automatic stopping systems for rear enders and stuff like that. Because at the end of the day if its not the cell phone that caused the crash, its the coffee or the hamburger or the makeup or changing the radio station or any of the other hundred distractions modern drivers deal with.
Blandine Bureau 1940 - 2011
Missed 2012 by 3 days, RIP Grandma :-(
     
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Dec 14, 2011, 03:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Because at the end of the day if its not the cell phone that caused the crash, its the coffee or the hamburger or the makeup or changing the radio station or any of the other hundred distractions modern drivers deal with.
Cell phones cause it more.

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Dec 14, 2011, 03:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
If there's anything science fiction has taught me, is that it's never a good idea to let the cars have self-control.
I don't think Transformers counts as science fiction

In Demolition Man, the Johnny Cabs performed admirably. How are you supposed to fight a neanderthal if your cabby is afraid for his life?
     
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Dec 14, 2011, 03:53 PM
 
Johnny Cabs? Isn't that Total Recall?
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Dec 14, 2011, 03:56 PM
 
D'oh! You win that round, the cell phones can stay
     
OAW  (op)
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Dec 14, 2011, 03:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
The results thus far, most people ignore it. Still see people holding up cell phones daily. And a side effect of the law has resulted in people texting or using devices far below the window to avoid being seen causing a greater level of distraction and longer periods of people not looking at the road.
Exactly. I'd much rather see someone yakking on the phone openly while driving rather than looking down in their lap cause they're trying to hide it from the cops.

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Dec 14, 2011, 03:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
The results thus far, most people ignore it. Still see people holding up cell phones daily. And a side effect of the law has resulted in people texting or using devices far below the window to avoid being seen causing a greater level of distraction and longer periods of people not looking at the road.
Lackluster enforcement doesn't have much to do with whether a law is worthwhile or not.

I used to think some sort of jamming device built into cars would be a good idea to put the cell phone issue to rest but at the same time the ability to dial out to 911 while driving is more important then blocking calls.
Plus passengers should be allowed to use them. No, the real solution is to make everyone a passenger
     
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Dec 14, 2011, 04:01 PM
 
Miami Cop Runs Police Car Up a Pole - Miami News - Riptide 2.0

What exactly was distracting the officer so much that he wound up driving off the road has not been officially explained. At least he wasn't driving an ATV on the beach.
Update,
Dropped a pen and was trying to find it.
     
 
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