[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

So to address your argument.... despite having sold more units on the Wii, you think the game did 'better' on the PS3, because of attach rates ? fair enough.

Jesus Hawkeye, does every one of your posts have to put words in someone's mouth?

I think I'll take this as my cue to go back to refereeing the debate.

[sek929]

What do I, as the consumer, care if one of the largest companies in the world is pulling a profit from their game system (being MS)?

As far as I can tell, them taking a loss is a good thing for consumers.

[Hawkeye_a]

Dakar, jokell....From the data presented by ort888, i am saying that the Star Wars: Force Unleashed game, sold more units(and therefore 'better') on the Wii, than on the PS3. Are you guys disputing that ? if so, why ? if not, what are we arguing about here, cause frankly im lost.

PS>>jokell.. yeah i guess attach rates for genres help studios decide what games to bring to what system. but what if a studio wants to sell as mmany copies of a game as possible, would they be better off targeting a system with 2-3X the installed base of the competition ? As in the case of SWFU, didn't that larger installed base pay off(sell more units) despite the attach rates ?

[Hawkeye_a]

Moving on....

Just upgraded to the new Wii System 4.0. seems alright.... moved over all my VC and WW games onto a 2GB SD card (32GB cards are now supported). The largest game(by size) was World of Goo (320 blocks)...loading it up from the card took approximately 15-20 seconds... not bad considering the game is 40-50MB. Smaller games (NES, SNES, Genesis) took under 5 seconds.

I dont see myself exceeding the 2GB limit anytime soon, but for those of you who will...32GB is the new limit.... or multiple SD cards i guess.

Cheers

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

Dakar, jokell....From the data presented by ort888, i am saying that the Star Wars: Force Unleashed game, sold more units(and therefore 'better') on the Wii, than on the PS3. Are you guys disputing that ? if so, why ? if not, what are we arguing about here, cause frankly im lost.

Absolutely no one is disputing that.

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

PS>>jokell.. yeah i guess attach rates for genres help studios decide what games to bring to what system. but what if a studio wants to sell as mmany copies of a game as possible, would they be better off targeting a system with 2-3X the installed base of the competition ? As in the case of SWFU, didn't that larger installed base pay off(sell more units) despite the attach rates ?

Yes, but here's the rub: the same studio creates a cheap arcade-type game (think Carnival Games) and releases it across all three consoles. This time, the attach rates are reversed.

Guess what types of games the studio will then concentrate on for future Wii releases? They may not even bother with porting the more mature titles at that point, because it wouldn't be as profitable as using that porting team to create another Carnival Games...

[Mac User #001]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

Moving on....

Just upgraded to the new Wii System 4.0. seems alright.... moved over all my VC and WW games onto a 2GB SD card (32GB cards are now supported). The largest game(by size) was World of Goo (320 blocks)...loading it up from the card took approximately 15-20 seconds... not bad considering the game is 40-50MB. Smaller games (NES, SNES, Genesis) took under 5 seconds.

I dont see myself exceeding the 2GB limit anytime soon, but for those of you who will...32GB is the new limit.... or multiple SD cards i guess.

Cheers

I'm pleasantly surprised by the 4.0 update. Looking forward to updating my Wii and moving off some things from the built-in storage.
I think I'll need a larger SD though. Rock Band 2 has my lousy 512MB card pretty much filled with the scrapings from the Wii's pathetic Music Store.

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

Yes, but here's the rub: the same studio creates a cheap arcade-type game (think Carnival Games) and releases it across all three consoles. This time, the attach rates are reversed.

I agree with that assertion completely. My point, through this whole debate, is that in either case, more units are sold on the Wii. Do you agree ?

Originally Posted by jokell82 

Guess what types of games the studio will then concentrate on for future Wii releases? They may not even bother with porting the more mature titles at that point, because it wouldn't be as profitable as using that porting team to create another Carnival Games...

Or they could make their primary SKU the Wii considering they will sell more anyway on said system ? With the sales probably going up with better quality/polish ?

Note that we haven't even considered the difference in development costs (resources, time, manpower) in this debate.

I think it's also worth noting that, from my observation, developers and publishers tend to consider the XB360/PS3 as one platform from a development perspective. Would you agree with that ? If so, there is a 50-50 split in the market (ie XB360 +PS3 ~ Wii, installed base)..... the tragedy is that the allocation of development resources isn't proportional to that ratio imo, which i think is a bad business decision by third parties, and imo a little unfiar to Wii owners irrespective of demographic. How do they expect to measure if a AAA game will sell on the Wii, if none of them are willing to actually make one ?

Something else occurred to me.... that developer you quoted earlier mentioned his studio had ported Scarface to the Wii, which saw mediocre sales. How do you think the same game would have sold had it been ported to the XB360/PS3 with only a difference in controls ? If you say as good as the Wii, is it fair to blame the Wii for that sales level ? if you say more.... could you point me to any third party XBox/PS2 game that was ported to the XB360/PS3 which has seen 'success'(lets say +1m sales total) ?

Cheers

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

I agree with that assertion completely. My point, through this whole debate, is that in either case, more units are sold on the Wii. Do you agree ?



Or they could make their primary SKU the Wii considering they will sell more anyway on said system ? With the sales probably going up with better quality/polish ?

Note that we haven't even considered the difference in development costs (resources, time, manpower) in this debate.

I think it's also worth noting that, from my observation, developers and publishers tend to consider the XB360/PS3 as one platform from a development perspective. Would you agree with that ? If so, there is a 50-50 split in the market (ie XB360 +PS3 ~ Wii, installed base)..... the tragedy is that the allocation of development resources isn't proportional to that ratio imo, which i think is a bad business decision by third parties, and imo a little unfiar to Wii owners irrespective of demographic. How do they expect to measure if a AAA game will sell on the Wii, if none of them are willing to actually make one ?

Something else occurred to me.... that developer you quoted earlier mentioned his studio had ported Scarface to the Wii, which saw mediocre sales. How do you think the same game would have sold had it been ported to the XB360/PS3 with only a difference in controls ? If you say as good as the Wii, is it fair to blame the Wii for that sales level ? if you say more.... could you point me to any third party XBox/PS2 game that was ported to the XB360/PS3 which has seen 'success'(lets say +1m sales total) ?

Cheers

You've completely missed the point. The attach rates of games like the Force Unleashed show that the Wii audience is not as receptive to those types of games, regardless of who developed it or who ported to what console or how many total units sold. Because of this the studios look at the games that DO get higher attach rates and focus on them. That is why you get crappy games like Carnival Games and we get stuff like Bioshock and Fallout 3.

Plus, the developers that make games like that don't like developing for the Wii because it is so underpowered.

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

You've completely missed the point. The attach rates of games like the Force Unleashed show that the Wii audience is not as receptive to those types of games, regardless of who developed it or who ported to what console or how many total units sold. Because of this the studios look at the games that DO get higher attach rates and focus on them. That is why you get crappy games like Carnival Games and we get stuff like Bioshock and Fallout 3.

Plus, the developers that make games like that don't like developing for the Wii because it is so underpowered.

Just so we're all clear on this...... you think 'attach rates' matter to developers more than unit sales, when it comes to choosing which platform to develop for ?

So SWFU sells:
- 626k on Wii for an attach rate of 2.81%
-464k on PS3 for an attach rate of 5.69%

And according to you developers and publishers would prefer to target those 464k 'receptive' PS3 owners as opposed to the 626k 'receptive' Wii owners ?

Seems to me like there were a lot more customers on the Wii who were 'receptive' of that game than on the PS3, despite the difference in quality.... imagine if they had given the Wii version of the game the same resources as the PS3 version.... would that affect sales ?

No offense intended, but i was under the impression that any business in any industry would choose to sell as many units of their product as possible, and targeting smaller niches with higher investments and lower ROIs was bad for business. but what do i know ? i guess third party game developers who are letting people go know more about business than a simpleton like myself.

As far as your comment regarding the Wii's horsepower........ it didn't stop them from developing for the PS1/PS2 did it ? if game developers want to focus their talent only on a niche of hardcore gamers on the XB360/PS3.... i'd recommend they get a second job... just in case.

Cheers

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

Just so we're all clear on this...... you think 'attach rates' matter to developers more than unit sales, when it comes to choosing which platform to develop for ?

So SWFU sells:
- 626k on Wii for an attach rate of 2.81%
-464k on PS3 for an attach rate of 5.69%

And according to you developers and publishers would prefer to target those 464k 'receptive' PS3 owners as opposed to the 626k 'receptive' Wii owners ?

Seems to me like there were a lot more customers on the Wii who were 'receptive' of that game than on the PS3, despite the difference in quality.... imagine if they had given the Wii version of the game the same resources as the PS3 version.... would that affect sales ?

No offense intended, but i was under the impression that any business in any industry would choose to sell as many units of their product as possible, and targeting smaller niches with higher investments and lower ROIs was bad for business. but what do i know ? i guess third party game developers who are letting people go know more about business than a simpleton like myself.

As far as your comment regarding the Wii's horsepower........ it didn't stop them from developing for the PS1/PS2 did it ? if game developers want to focus their talent only on a niche of hardcore gamers on the XB360/PS3.... i'd recommend they get a second job... just in case.

Cheers

The problem is you're using a very narrow minded view when looking at those numbers. When looking at attach rates you're not worried about how that particular game did, you are looking into how the overall audience is receptive to games of that nature. It's about gauging future development, not justifying current sales.

Yes 2.8% of Wii owners is larger than the 5.7% of PS3 owners, but 5% of Wii owners dwarfs both of those numbers. They'll want to concentrate Wii development on games with the potential for that amount of sales. And that just is not hardcore games. The best examples of hardcore games on the Wii are lucky to get 2-3% attach rates. Hell, No More Heroes is arguably one of the better hardcore games on the Wii, and it's attach rate isn't even 1%!

Because PS3/360 owners are more receptive to those types of games, it makes more sense to concentrate development on those platforms to try to appeal to those gamers, and spend less money on ports for the Wii that isn't as receptive.

[Mac User #001]

I feel bad about not having treated my Wii to many M rated games. I have all the must haves (Mario,SSBB,Zelda,etc..) and a few others I'm not so proud of (DD Revolution,Game Party,others) and many other alright games (plus stuff from the Wii Store) but have a large list of adult-themed/targeted games I want.

Deadly Creatures
MadWorld (I can not believe I don't have this yet)
The Conduit (Not out yet, I know)
CoD: WaW (Because my dumb @$$ doesn't have it for the PC yet)

I guess the only mature title I have is Dead Rising: CTYD. Oh, and Res Evil: Umbrella Chronicles, which sucks. Red Steel is alright though. Man, I went all out when I first bought my Wii. Little did I know how much I wouldn't enjoy it.

EDIT: And I just realized that by not refreshing the page before posting, my post is now randomly placed in a debate on Wii sales and attach rates. Whoops.

[Dakar V]

What do you think of Dead Rising?

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

The problem is you're using a very narrow minded view when looking at those numbers. When looking at attach rates you're not worried about how that particular game did, you are looking into how the overall audience is receptive to games of that nature. It's about gauging future development, not justifying current sales.

Yes 2.8% of Wii owners is larger than the 5.7% of PS3 owners, but 5% of Wii owners dwarfs both of those numbers. They'll want to concentrate Wii development on games with the potential for that amount of sales. And that just is not hardcore games. The best examples of hardcore games on the Wii are lucky to get 2-3% attach rates. Hell, No More Heroes is arguably one of the better hardcore games on the Wii, and it's attach rate isn't even 1%!

Agreed. We seem to be approaching the issue from two different perspectives. I'm coming to it from an 'accounting' type perspective and you from a 'market research' side.

Would it fair of me to say that 2.8% of Wii owners is more than 5.7% of PS3 owners? And will that be changing anytime soon ?

Also, Mac User #001.... if you haven't already, please pick up Resident Evil 4 on Wii (if you havent already played it on the GCN). That game, despite being a last gen port.... qualifies as a AAA third party mature title to me. I've played it on the GCN and it still is one of the best games i've ever played.

Cheers

[exca1ibur]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

Would it fair of me to say that 2.8% of Wii owners is more than 5.7% of PS3 owners? And will that be changing anytime soon ?

umm. he did

Originally Posted by jokell82 

Yes 2.8% of Wii owners is larger than the 5.7% of PS3 owners

[Dakar V]

The recipients of the 9th Annual Game Developers Choice Awards are:

Best Game Design
LITTLEBIGPLANET

Best Visual Art
PRINCE OF PERSIA

Best Technology
LITTLEBIGPLANET

Best Writing
FALLOUT 3

Best Audio
DEAD SPACE

Best Debut
LITTLEBIGPLANET

Innovation
LITTLEBIGPLANET

Best Handheld Game
GOD OF WAR: CHAINS OF OLYMPUS

Best Downloadable Game
WORLD OF GOO

Game of the Year
FALLOUT 3

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

Because PS3/360 owners are more receptive to those types of games, it makes more sense to concentrate development on those platforms to try to appeal to those gamers, and spend less money on ports for the Wii that isn't as receptive.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I do not think attach rates (ie percentage of people on platform who buy a game), pay the bills at the end of the day.

As far as AAA third party titles on Wii. I'd like to actually see some games that fit that description before assuming they won't sell. Madworld is one (Maybe RE4 is another despite it being a last gen port), and i think it will sell. Compare that to the number of AAA third party titles on XB360/PS3 that have "failed"(haven't broken a million). I just wonder why those two platform get so many chances to sell AAA third party titles when compared to the one on which said content would probably sell more, given the data ort888 posted.

Cheers

[Hawkeye_a]

Dakar V.

What's your thoughts on Punch Out(the new one) ? Do you think i will be as huge a hit as many core gamers seem to think ?

I actually don't think it will sell as much as Mario Kart or even Mario Galaxy..... it's just too obscure a franchise imo.

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

We'll have to agree to disagree. I do not think attach rates (ie percentage of people on platform who buy a game), pay the bills at the end of the day.

Again, you're missing the point. Of course attach rates don't pay the bills. But they tell you which games will pay bills better than other games. And you can see by the attach rates on the Wii that crappy arcade titles pay way more bills than more mature titles. Opposite is true on other consoles. That's all.

[sek929]

I'm at my buddy's house, he has a Wii. He tells me, "Oh man I gotta show you my new game" judging by his tone I'm thinking he got Madworld...

His girlfriend bought Wii Fit, of course.

I told him I didn't feel like shaking my hips around for fun at that particular moment.

[Dakar V]

Nintendo has really turned into the Dr. Phil of consoles, hasn't it?

[sek929]

The thing is there are now games I'm actually excited to see on the Wii, but everyone who has one (that I know) got it to appease their g/f or significant other so they end up with a bunch of party games and other assorted BS.

[Rumor]

Just wait, soon the g/f and her friends will get tired of using it (mine did), then it will collect dust most of the time.

[exca1ibur]

So, How Many Copies Does A Wii Game Need To Sell To Make Money?

[Mac User #001]

Originally Posted by Dakar V 

What do you think of Dead Rising?

Meh. I like the idea of it, of using anything you can get your hands on to kill zombies, and I imagine it was much fun on the 36, but its just something that doesn't work well on the Wii. The hordes of zombies are small, very small. And the whole game is rather pixelly.
Nonetheless, I wanted to finish the game so I'd be up to speed when I bought Dead Rising 2 for my PC. And it wasn't difficult to continue the slaughter of zombies.

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

Also, Mac User #001.... if you haven't already, please pick up Resident Evil 4 on Wii (if you havent already played it on the GCN). That game, despite being a last gen port.... qualifies as a AAA third party mature title to me. I've played it on the GCN and it still is one of the best games i've ever played.

Cheers

I bought the game for my PC. With AA and a high res, it looks darn good for a GC port. But the cutscene videos are so low res its hard to watch them.
The game is good, I just haven't gotten around to beating it yet. The controller I use to play the game (because there is no mouse + keyboard support) has buttons that like to stick a lot, so in quicktime instances the buttons tend to stick and its impossible to make it past those. I should get a new controller and take a fresh stab at the game.

Originally Posted by sek929 

I'm at my buddy's house, he has a Wii. He tells me, "Oh man I gotta show you my new game" judging by his tone I'm thinking he got Madworld...

His girlfriend bought Wii Fit, of course.

I told him I didn't feel like shaking my hips around for fun at that particular moment.

[angelmb]

Japan is still a no-go for XB360 where not a single game in Top 50 software chart can play on Microsoft’s console. I wonder how worse it could get if a handled xbox was available…

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by angelmb 

Japan is still a no-go for XB360 where not a single game in Top 50 software chart can play on Microsoft’s console. I wonder how worse it could get if a handled xbox was available…

On the other hand, they just passed 1 million consoles sold in Japan.

[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by Mac User #001 

Meh. I like the idea of it, of using anything you can get your hands on to kill zombies, and I imagine it was much fun on the 36, but its just something that doesn't work well on the Wii. The hordes of zombies are small, very small. And the whole game is rather pixelly.

So... you think that's the fault of the port or the limitations of the Wii?

Originally Posted by jokell82 

On the other hand, they just passed 1 million consoles sold in Japan.

Yeah, I'm somewhat impressed. PS3 is killing them 3-to-1, but sony moving only 3 mil units in Japan seems underwhelming. But I can't pretend to know what the normal numbers for that market are.

[ort888]

The PS2 sold 21.5 million units in Japan.

[Dakar V]

Sure, but lifetime numbers really aren't a useful comparison right now.

[Dakar V]

Get in line now for WiiFit Plus.

[sek929]

Quick question for anyone familiar with CoD4 multiplayer.

Is it easy to play matches with a buddy on XBL? My friend cheezydog (not actual name) has been berating me day and night to buy CoD4. I'm sure I can find it pretty cheap somewhere but I would only really be buying it for online multi w/people I know. I'm god-awful by myself and not one for masochism.

I am certainly going to get on the CoD MW:2 train, but I think it might be prudent to get some training in first so as to not embarrass myself.

[Dakar V]

I might join you. I could borrow a copy from a buddy. Too back there's no campaign co-op.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by sek929 

Quick question for anyone familiar with CoD4 multiplayer.

Is it easy to play matches with a buddy on XBL?

You mean, like, is it easy to get a buddy and you in the same game? Sure. But you'll still get headshot from three directions the moment you step into any open space, with or without a buddy.

[Dakar V]

That'll only encourage him.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

You mean, like, is it easy to get a buddy and you in the same game? Sure. But you'll still get headshot from three directions the moment you step into any open space, with or without a buddy.

As long as I have a friend to share the ass-rape.

[Mac User #001]

Originally Posted by Dakar V 

So... you think that's the fault of the port or the limitations of the Wii?

The limitations of the Wii, without a doubt.
Its a good looking game for the Wii, no doubt. The amount of zombies on screen at once, though nothing like what the 360 had, is still amazing for the Wii, in my opinion. But the lack of any art style and blocky graphics make it look just sort of bland.

[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by sek929 

As long as I have a friend to share the ass-rape.

I'd hate to be your friend in prison.

[Chongo]

least expensive webcam that will work with the PS3?

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

least expensive webcam that will work with the PS3?

Hopefully one that doesn't show ass-rapage.

[Dakar V]

The Wii prints almost twice as much money now.

[jokell82]

Analyst: Investing in Wii development is 'fool's gold'

[mattyb]

Very interesting :

Nielsen report ranks gaming usage for Wii, PS3, and Xbox 360 consoles

[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

Analyst: Investing in Wii development is 'fool's gold'

That's a stretch at best.

Originally Posted by mattyb 

Very interesting :

Nielsen report ranks gaming usage for Wii, PS3, and Xbox 360 consoles

Didn't we have something similar come up last year?

Either way, nothing surprising there.

[Dakar V]

Apparently Nintendo's Prez is as bat-**** crazy as Sony's

A price cut in a difficult economy cannot really excite the market and drive up sales

This after the PS3 destroyed the Wii in the Japanese software market (note that an xbox game even managed to sneak past) in March.

[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by mattyb 

Very interesting :

Nielsen report ranks gaming usage for Wii, PS3, and Xbox 360 consoles

Nielsen are idiots.

Looks like they switched the Wii/360 & Gamecube/XBOX Data points for January 2009.

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by Dakar V 

That's a stretch at best.

Did you read the source? To me it makes a lot of sense:

Originally Posted by Doug Creutz

Opinion of investing in game development for each platform...

The choice here is really between investing for the Xbox 360 and PS3 -- since their capabilities are fairly similar -- or the Wii. I would caution investors and developers that the larger installed base of the Wii is really a bit of a red herring.

In the U.S., there is a 19-million unit installed base for the Wii versus 22-million units combined for the 360 and PS3. Assuming some overlap in the 360/PS3 installed bases, they're roughly equivalent.

In addition, Nintendo is the dominant publisher on the Wii with over one-third of software market share on its platform. Guitar Hero and Rock Band account for one-sixth of sales.

So the addressable market for third-party Wii titles is only about half of what the installed base would imply. The situation on the 360/PS3 is less daunting, with less than a quarter of software dollar share going to first-party publishers and Guitar Hero/Rock Band.

The other issue is that the 360 and PS3 are AAA-oriented platforms, while the Wii is casual-oriented. There is a very clear correlation between game quality and unit sales on the 360/PS3, while there is very little correlation on the Wii, at least for third-party games.

Thus, in some sense you have more control over your fate on the 360/PS3 if you can come up with a high-quality game. Whereas on the Wii, it's a bit of a crapshoot for what works and what doesn't.

I think the Wii installed base represents, to a certain extent, fool's gold for someone looking to invest in video game development. You're rolling the dice on succeeding in a market which has proved very resistant to generating meaningful hits away from Nintendo titles and the music genre.

In contrast, I think the Nintendo DS can actually be an attractive platform, if only because the development costs are so low: hundreds of thousands of dollars verses millions for a Wii title. Ubisoft is a great example of a publisher that has built a very nice business on low-cost DS product.

[Dakar V]

Yes, I did.

[Brien]

Originally Posted by Dakar V 

Apparently Nintendo's Prez is as bat-**** crazy as Sony's




This after the PS3 destroyed the Wii in the Japanese software market (note that an xbox game even managed to sneak past) in March.

Plenty of companies raise prices (or at least don't lower them) during recessions. I'm not surprised.

[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by Brien 

Plenty of companies raise prices (or at least don't lower them) during recessions. I'm not surprised.

I've never seen a console go up in price. Plus, I'm referring to his claim that lowering the price wouldn't help when consumer spending is tight.

[sek929]

Which is retarded. If the 360 was $150 my girlfriend would buy one today.