[Phileas]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

The iPhone already does all of those things.

At more than double the price.

[Spheric Harlot]

So you're saying forgo profit margins in order to suck people into your ecosystem reduce the carriers to the dumb pipe utilities they're goddamn supposed to be - and to counterbalance the power android gives them.

That does fit in with the pervasive iCloud metaphor.

[Phileas]

Like all of us, I am guessing and might be completely, utterly, soul crushingly wrong.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

So you're saying forgo profit margins in order to suck people into your ecosystem reduce the carriers to the dumb pipe utilities they're goddamn supposed to be - and to counterbalance the power android gives them.

That does fit in with the pervasive iCloud metaphor.

Nobody said Apple was forgoing profit margins at all. We pointed out to you that their margins are different on different products. Therefore, the 3G iPod Touch does not have to cost as much money as an iPhone 4.

Anyway, we're starting to get off topic... you might want to start another thread.

The way I and some others see it: Apple wants all of its devices connected, just like computers. The value of the device to the person goes way up when they're always connected. Obviously Apple knows this. To me, it's a no brainer they're going to offer a 3G iPod Touch. Of course, nobody knows the future. Apple could be bought by RIM

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Nobody said Apple was forgoing profit margins at all. We pointed out to you that their margins are different on different products. Therefore, the 3G iPod Touch does not have to cost as much money as an iPhone 4.

Suggesting that Apple make a cheaper iPhone (marketed as an iPod touch 3G or whatever), and reasoning that they would do so because the iPod sells at a lower margin than the iPhone 4 IS suggesting that Apple shift the iPhone business to a lower-margin segment.

[Waragainstsleep]

Don't forget the iPod is a lower margin segment. And it most definitely transitioned from a higher margin segment when it launched in order to achieve its gargantuan market share.

High margins products have a market share limit attached. There comes a point when you have to reduce margins to get more sales. Not everyone chooses to go this route, sometimes its better to diversify and seek higher margins in a different market. BMW famously limited imports to certain countries to maintain their exclusivity.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

Don't forget the iPod is a lower margin segment. And it most definitely transitioned from a higher margin segment when it launched in order to achieve its gargantuan market share.

High margins products have a market share limit attached. There comes a point when you have to reduce margins to get more sales.

As I said - this is typically done when you're having trouble selling the stuff you make - or when you're desperate to grow market share to make quarterly results look better.

See RIM for a prime example of this.

In the case of Apple, though, it would make sense to forgo some margin, in order to tie people into the iNfrastructure. That was the tactic back when they achieved critical mass with the iPods and started cutting accessories and slashing prices.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Phileas 

At more than double the price.

How much do you think an iPod Touch with a 3G radio inside will cost? I would totally buy a 3G iPod Touch, but I don't think it's going to be too much cheaper than an iPhone, unless Apple eats some of the profit.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by hayesk 

Get a really cheap voice plan and add data. I have an $8 voice plan with a $30 data plan. You can't get this in the store. Call them up and say, I really don't use a lot of voice but I want data. They'll be happy to offer you the unadvertised $8 "customer retention" plan.

Which carrier are you with that allowed you to have an $8 voice plan with a data plan? (and, how much data are they giving you for $30?)
Any carrier that I've looked at requires at least a $20 voice plan when adding on a data plan.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

How much do you think an iPod Touch with a 3G radio inside will cost? I would totally buy a 3G iPod Touch, but I don't think it's going to be too much cheaper than an iPhone, unless Apple eats some of the profit.

What I'm saying.

I can imagine Apple dropping the cheaper display into the iPhone 4 and keeping that as an entry-level iPhone, dropping the price by $100 under that of the current iPhone 3GS.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

What I'm saying.

I can imagine Apple dropping the cheaper display into the iPhone 4 and keeping that as an entry-level iPhone, dropping the price by $100 under that of the current iPhone 3GS.

Yep. They could also save some pennies by keeping an 8GB version around and by staying with the lower quality cameras. But, we're talking pennies. I can't see a low-end iPhone/3G iPod Touch being less than $450.

I would *really* like the ability to disable the iPhone's Phone app, turning the iPhone into what North American carriers define as "tablet", so one could easily put it onto a NA carrier's tablet data plan. But, I wouldn't be surprised to see NA data rates jump shortly after..

[freudling]

It seems as though you guys have completely missed the gist of the recent discussion.

Let's move on and try and stay on topic more so.

RIM has a special committee looking at their management structure. It's possible they'll break up the Chairman and Dual CEO roles. In other news, Rubenstein was pushed aside as head of webOS. I knew that was coming. Maybe it'll be contagious in Waterloo.

[Phileas]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

How much do you think an iPod Touch with a 3G radio inside will cost? I would totally buy a 3G iPod Touch, but I don't think it's going to be too much cheaper than an iPhone, unless Apple eats some of the profit.

Check the last page, the answers have been posted.

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Which carrier are you with that allowed you to have an $8 voice plan with a data plan? (and, how much data are they giving you for $30?)
Any carrier that I've looked at requires at least a $20 voice plan when adding on a data plan.

Rogers. The funny thing is they called me to try to sell me on a higher priced plan. I said to them "to tell you the truth, I've been thinking about dropping my cell phone plan. As you can see, I don't use much voice." Then they offered me the $8 plan - 40 minutes. Friends have done this with other carriers too and have gotten the same results. I don't know about the US, but in Canada they have unadvertised "customer retention plans." You can't get them at retail, but if you call them, they'll give you this plan to keep you on as a customer.

[Spheric Harlot]

Inside RIM: An exclusive look at the rise and fall of the company that made smartphones smart

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Inside RIM: An exclusive look at the rise and fall of the company that made smartphones smart

Pieces I like from this article:

If you look at RIM’s global revenue today, the story it paints isn’t a good one as far as driving new business and revenue channels. “They essentially just channel stuff,” a former exec said. For instance, when RIM wants to sell to a new market, it will go to two or three primary carriers and make those carriers purchase a set amount of devices up front to stock the channel for what is typically the remainder of the calendar year. Then RIM will sell those devices at full margin. It’s a great quick and easy profit from the channel. So RIM has now opened up three new carriers in a new country, let’s say, and it had them each purchase “X” thousand units each. Now, RIM can report to the Street that it shipped 700,000 devices at full market value.

...customers are moving to other platforms and devices, that will happen in countries outside of the U.S. and Canada that have been stuffed with BlackBerry phones. Growth will slow to a stall in these markets, one source told me, and the problems will be compounded by the fact that a lot of these devices are not being sold through to end users. “They’re selling a screen with a giant calculator attached to it. It’s not a cool device anymore.”

“RIM is notorious for dropping these bombshells at the 11th hour on the carriers, and the PlayBook not having native email was a shock to the carriers.” They were all expecting a BlackBerry with a bigger screen. RIM was hoping to blow through the 500,000 units and have carriers take orders for millions of additional PlayBooks, but that has not happened yet. Mike Lazaridis looks at it as, why aren’t people buying this tablet when it has the most powerful engine with respect to multitasking, and supports Flash? But consumers have spoken pretty loudly a number of times, and Mike unfortunately leads the product side and continues to miss the mark with the masses, a former RIM executive told me. “I don’t even see anyone in Waterloo walking around with a PlayBook that doesn’t work for RIM,” another former RIM employee said.

The simple answer that so many tech companies don't understand, including RIM, is: people don't give a crap about geeky tech talk and specs. It's all about the user experience.

[freudling]

And this:

RIM seems to be doing damage control in a bunch of areas right now. One such area is the PlayBook and trying to mitigate the negative response to that product, and I was told the company is even going so far as to selectively block different media and even social networking sites from being accessed by employees.

On a related note, RIM actually has the most intense, widespread corporate online astroturfing ring I've ever seen.

Thread on it:

http://forums.macnn.com/89/macnn-lou...-astroturfing/

[freudling]

I dug this up from someone on Ars Technica (apparently they had a problem with RIM astroturfers):

RIM actually had women go around in bars in New York and flash their blackberries to guys and try and get them to use it and comment on it. The astroturfing was about as sophisticated and was "well co-ordinated" such that RIM could do searches to find the forums that were posted to by their outside people and then post "follow ups". This way the original postings, and the subsequent followups wouldn't be obviously from the same IP range. Unfortunately it became obvious when user profiles were substantially different but the comments posted, while not identical, contained the same points written in a similar manner and tone.

There were quickly identified as Astroturfers on many sites and told to buzz off.

[freudling]

Apple's iCloud to create additional demand for iOS devices. Wonder what RIM's answer will be.

ChangeWave: Buyers prefer iPhone over Android, iCloud to create additional demand for Apple products | 9to5Mac | Apple Intelligence

[freudling]

Still not very good evidence, but it's interesting to see some of this stuff surface in relation to a 3G connected iPod Touch... that is, a reference in iOS 5 to "cellular data" on an iPod Touch:

iPod touch gets cellular toggle switch in iOS 5 | 9to5Mac | Apple Intelligence

[Lateralus]

RIM to cut 11 percent of workforce | Reuters

[driven]

Originally Posted by Lateralus 

RIM to cut 11 percent of workforce | Reuters

... and I have the feeling this is only the beginning.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Lateralus 

RIM to cut 11 percent of workforce | Reuters

Holy shite.

[Lateralus]

RIM results, outlook stun investors even after warning | Reuters
RIM shares battered as questions swirl about future | Reuters

Units-sold is now dropping, rather than just profit.

[Lateralus]

Poor sales may have RIM gearing up for PlayBook fire sale

Research in Motion may be preparing to slash prices on its BlackBerry PlayBook in the near future: the 16GB model is being sold at half-price to employees of the cell carrier Rogers in Canada, according to Boy Genius Report. RIM acknowledged it would begin cutting prices during its earnings call yesterday, though specifics on deals for consumers have yet to be revealed.

Tempting as the prospect of another chance a cheap tablet may sound, I'm not anywhere near as enticed by it compared to the TouchPad sale given the screen size of the PlayBook.

[imitchellg5]

$99 Playbook doesn't entice me at all.

[turtle777]

RIM is dead. They will not recover.

-t

[Brien]

Yep. Maybe HP will buy them and try again?

Honestly they're probably worth more in patents anyway. I foresee another round of litigation wars over the death of RIM.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

RIM is dead. They will not recover.

-t

You're probably correct, though such bold pronouncements often have a way of proving the pronouncer wrong. Most of us remember such predictions about another fruitie company.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

RIM is dead. They will not recover.

-t

That's a pretty ridiculous statement. RIM have fallen a long way, but they still are a large force and presence and their newest line of smartphones are getting somewhat decent reviews. And the browser finally works. In this industry, anything can happen.

[Lateralus]

RIM won't be dying anytime soon, but I sincerely doubt they'll ever reclaim what they were. I now see RIM more as this generation's SGI.

[turtle777]

Stop dreaming, guys. Who still wants a blackberry ?

In corporate America, a Blackberry is the new Palm Pilot.

They are dead.

-t

[Spheric Harlot]

Corporate America is a pretty small slice of the world. You're probably still right, though.

[freudling]

Guys, nobody knows the future. But let us look at reality. RIM is using generations old hardware in old style phones with an old OS. Their marketshare is dropping fast to almost single digits.

Now you say, they have QNX! Just push out new phones and people will love you! Not that simple. They are having to compete with iPhones and phones by HTC, Samsung and others. These guys are years ahead of RIM. RIM is just too far behind to catch up in hardware and nobody gives a crap about QNX.

The PlayBook was the way to introduce QNX to the world. The PlayBook is a failure. Did you hear the earnings call? Do you know how many PBs RIM shipped this quarter? 200 k. Just 200 k. Less than last quarter and the PB is supposed to be global now! What does that tell you? The retailers are saying NO. And so are the carriers. Nobody wants them.

RIM is dead. I don't wish any I'll will on them but this is reality the way I see it. Steve Jobs was right. RIM would need to enter out of their comfort zone to be a platform company but they don't know what the hell they're doing.

So long RIM, you did it to yourself.

[driven]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Corporate America is a pretty small slice of the world. You're probably still right, though.

Well, it's not that small. Let's face it, RIM was built specifically on sales to corporate America. They even carved themselves some nice recurring revenue with the BES. *AND* there are quite a few large corporations (big oil, gov't) that like the BES and the secure tunnel it provides to corporate intranet resources that even now, nobody else provides in quite as easy of a package. The big pause for RIM now, as others have pointed out, is dated hardware and an antique OS. It probably is too late, but one shouldn't discount sales to corporate America as being a small slice of pie. It's quite a large slice of pie. Even Apple is playing nice now with corporations who are gobbling up iPads like candy on November 1st.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Stop dreaming, guys. Who still wants a blackberry ?

In corporate America, a Blackberry is the new Palm Pilot.

They are dead.

-t

If RIM could come out with a 100% competitive OS, I would. I adore the BlackBerry form factor.

[Lateralus]

Ditto. Their handsets are golden. They just need to load them with something that feels better than System 6 with makeup.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Lateralus 

Ditto. Their handsets are golden. They just need to load them with something that feels better than System 6 with makeup.

Yep. My workplace has started giving out the newest Bolds, and the hardware feels very, very high end. It's just a shame that when you use the OS, you're transported back to 2001.

[turtle777]

LOL, in most companies, being handed a Blackberry is a form of punishment.

You get all the work (email, reachability) without the fun (good internet browsing, iOS games & apps).

-t

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

LOL, in most companies, being handed a Blackberry is a form of punishment.

You get all the work (email, reachability) without the fun (good internet browsing, iOS games & apps).

-t

Uh, why would work want to hand people a phone with games?

I feel like you're not reading anything anyone is saying.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Uh, why would work want to hand people a phone with games?

That's not the point.

I'm traveling a lot, spending much time idle in airports, hotels etc.

Since I'm doing it for the company, I want to be able to spend my time as I wish, and not always just reading emails.

The iPhone does email well enough (for me), but I'd be pissed if I had to turn my iPhone in for a Blackberry.

Sorry, 99% of the people feel like that, that's why RIM is SOL.

-t

[imitchellg5]

Nope, you're not reading what Lateralus or I are saying.

[Waragainstsleep]

BES is a pain in the ass. It only talks to Exchange for a start.
The MDM features and platforms now available for iOS give more than enough control over devices to satisfy even the most paranoid CEOs. RIM has lost all the advantages it carved out for itself. They established a specialist niche and then rested on their laurels. It was inevitable that the security levels and device management features would be duplicated or bettered by someone else sooner or later, the same thing happened with the original iPhone when everyone else adopted multitouch screens but Apple never stood still, they kept adding more and more. RIM didn't.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Nope, you're not reading what Lateralus or I are saying.

Yes, what you said (good hardware) is irrelevant, and also disputable.

Look at the market, it's clear what most people think.
Doesn't matter really that you and Lat think that there are great BBs.

-t

[imitchellg5]

Wow, no, you didn't read at all.

If RIM could come out with a 100% competitive OS, I would.

It's just a shame that when you use the OS, you're transported back to 2001.

Lateralus:

They just need to load them with something that feels better than System 6 with makeup.

[turtle777]

WTF, dude ?

You disagreed with me, although all my points were DIRECTLY related to a deficient OS.

Your points in defense of the BB was the hardware. All I'm saying is that nobody gives a shit.

-t

[imitchellg5]

I said I would buy a Blackberry if it had a solid OS.

I said that Blackberrys are great hardware, all they need is great software. They're half way there. But your response is that it doesn't matter at all, because you think they're completely dead without a chance. If that's true, then who knows how companies like Motorola survive with mediocre hardware on mediocre software.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

I said I would buy a Blackberry if it had a solid OS.

I said that Blackberrys are great hardware, all they need is great software. They're half way there. But your response is that it doesn't matter at all, because you think they're completely dead without a chance. If that's true, then who knows how companies like Motorola survive with mediocre hardware on mediocre software.

I understand your position. Motorola is kind of dead no? They sold a ton of mobility patents to Google just weeks ago.

With RIM, it's a lot more complicated than that. Forget about all these failures and shrinking marketshare. We're now looking at a company that is a shell of its former self. Once an innovator now a copy and paster. They're like a kid trying to fit into a group running to keep up. "Hey, look at me. Guys? Wait up. Guys?"

It's too late. Sure, they could prove us wrong but they're just not relevant anymore.

[freudling]

Gents...

I just looked at RIM's quarterly report in question. Some red flags.

First, their profit is half of what it was compared to last quarter. It's about $325 million net.

Second. How much cash on hand? Total including investments is $1.4 billion. Apple's iCloud alone almost cost that much to make. And that's just one of many features of iOS. Apple has tons of other features in iOS and lots of other products and software titles. It's mind boggling when looked at like this.

MS has tons of cash too. In this way, RIM looks really weak. And something else that jumped out at me. RIM expects to burn $500 million this quarter over the $100 million expected some months ago. They may even need to borrow money. So when you hear about RIM expanding their user base think HP: low margins are a dead end.

In short, RIM could have money trouble a lot faster than some may think. And they are going to have a lot of trouble innovating against the Apple's of the world with such a weak cash position. This, coupled with how messed up their vision is... In this competitive landscape I don't expect RIM to be alive in 2 years.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

If that's true, then who knows how companies like Motorola survive with mediocre hardware on mediocre software.

Motorola's hardware is anything but mediocre, as you'll discover if you try to use one of their phones next to another phone by pretty much any other manufacturer (except Nokia, sometimes) in a weak signal area.