[RAILhead]

Heading to NY for the first time ever, and as we look at the subway routes, etc., we're OVERWHELMED (as I'm sure you can imagine for a NY n00b).

I'm studying everything and looking at where we're going, but I thought I'd ask this:

Let's say I'm at Grand Central and I want to go to Grimaldi's in Brooklyn (19 Old Fulton St.).

What's the EASIEST and most SIMPLE (not necessarily the fastest) way for a n00b to get there via the subway?

[olePigeon]

Mind the gap.

[pathogen]

Take the 6 train to Bleeker, transfer to the brooklyn bound F. Get off at York, and then walk.

I just want to state, the above is the easiest.

However, the A train will get you closer, at High Street, but it's a transferring nightmare with lots of underground walking if you start at Grand Central.

[RAILhead]

Okay, it looks like you'd simply take the 4 down (South? Downtown?) to the Fulton terminal (station?) to get there, and then just the 4 up to get back?

[RAILhead]

Originally Posted by pathogen

Take the 6 train to Bleeker, transfer to the brooklyn bound F. Get off at York, and then walk.

Uhh, that looks all kinds of wrong. I'm heading to Fulton.

[porieux]

...

[RAILhead]

RE: Fulton, I wasn't looking to the other side of the East River. Now I see what you were talking about, if 19 Old Fulton is on the other side of the E River.

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by porieux

I really recommend avoiding it at this time and taking a taxi when possible. You might be surprised at how cheap the taxis are there.

Cheap? Taxi?

hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

I guess you like paying $10-$20 a trip.

I spent a week in NYC in 2002, so I bought a 7 day unlimited ride MetroCard (currently $24).

Even if you're only there for 3-4 days $24 for unlimited rides is a great deal.

Maury, the subway system looks complicated on paper (or a website). That 2002 trip was my first time there. By the second day I had it mostly all figured out. There's big maps of the system in the subway stations that are MUCH easier to read. And don't be afraid to ask directions. Most of the people in NYC are very friendly.

How long are you going to be there?

[porieux]

...

[pathogen]

Originally Posted by RAILhead

Uhh, that looks all kinds of wrong. I'm heading to Fulton.

Funny, I literally got on the 6 train 10 minutes after I posted, and then I slapped my forehead.

Take the 4 or the 5. No transfers. It's even express.

Duh.

I live here, and sometimes I forget that it's not always complicated.

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by porieux

Um, I was just there two weeks ago and I know what I'm talking about. $10 is no big deal...especially if you are with one or two other people. And that's for a longish trip...around Manhattan will be less.

Nope. Sorry. $10 a pop is too expensive.

I'd rather take $24 and have all you can eat. Even if you only ride the subway 4 times, it's still cheaper than a taxi.

[RAILhead]

Another question:

Say I'm heading to the Bronx Zoo. Fodors and such say to take the 2 to Pelham, but subway maps show that the 5 also goes to the same terminal. Since the 5 is right at Grand Central (where we'll be staying), it seems like it would make more sense to take that (though I don't know how to "stay to the left" on the 5 at E 180 st).

[RAILhead]

Also, what's the difference between a terminal and a stop? Can you get on a train at any stop, or do you have to go to a terminal to board?

[Timo]

Originally Posted by pathogen

Take the 6 train to Bleeker, transfer to the brooklyn bound F. Get off at York, and then walk..

This is the fastest way. (I work near Grimaldi's, and used to work near the Bleecker Street 6. N.B. you can transfer from downtown 6 trains, but not from uptown 6 trains at Bleecker for Broadway/Lafayette.

Two nicer ways:

1. Take a 4/5 to Fulton (we're still in Manhattan). Switch at this most crazy station to the 2/3 (an adventure in itself). OR get out, see some of Wall Street / Ground Zero, and get back on a 2/3.

Get off the 2/3 at the first stop in Brooklyn, Clark Street, in a neighborhood called Brooklyn Heights. Beautiful streets, and the Promenade is spectacular. Then just roll down the hill to Old Fulton Street and Grimaldi's (a good choice, BTW -- but be warned it is ALWAYS busy).

2. Take a 4/5/6 to Brooklyn Bridge. Get out and walk this most fantastic bridge. At the Brooklyn side there are some side stairs that drop you off not far from Old Fulton Street.

OR walk the Brooklyn Bridge back after Grimaldi's -- walking towards Manhattan in twilight with the city lights coming on is terrific.

The NYC subway used to be the best in the world, but these days it is a shell of it's [sic] former glory. You are likely to find trains that arbitrarily stop and then start going the other direction (good luck understanding the 'explanation' over the intercoms) or trains that never arrive, etc.

It happens, but likely? Not true. Changes in schedules (for track work) are restricted mostly to weekends, and really, it's not that complicated nor is it such a big deal.

I really recommend avoiding it at this time and taking a taxi when possible. You might be surprised at how cheap the taxis are there.

Cabs are a great deal, especially when you've got a few people to share, or are not sure of how to get somewhere and the traffic's OK. They have their place in the commuter's bag of tricks. But during rush-hour gridlock, the train is the winner every time. Listen, the locals don't just ride it for kicks, you know -- the subway is actually very efficient and cheap.

And, one herky-jerky cab ride might be exciting, but let me tell the routine gets old. That's why I also say, "Don't forget buses." If you have a chance to take a bus somewhere, and you have time, buses are nice because they crank the A/C and you get to see the unfolding cityscape. When I'm not in a hurry I take the bus and enjoy the show.

[Timo]

Originally Posted by RAILhead

Another question:

Say I'm heading to the Bronx Zoo. Fodors and such say to take the 2 to Pelham, but subway maps show that the 5 also goes to the same terminal. Since the 5 is right at Grand Central (where we'll be staying), it seems like it would make more sense to take that (though I don't know how to "stay to the left" on the 5 at E 180 st).

Take either the #2 or #5 train uptown to East Tremont Ave/West Farm Square. Exit to the left, through the turnstile. At street level, walk straight ahead (follow train uptown) on Boston Road 2 1/2 blocks to the Bronx Zoo gate.
This is the Asia entrance (Gate A).

http://www.bronxzoo.com/bz-directions_to_the_zoo

[Timo]

Originally Posted by RAILhead

Also, what's the difference between a terminal and a stop? Can you get on a train at any stop, or do you have to go to a terminal to board?

I'm not sure I understand your question, but rest assured it's not that complicated. Grand Central Terminal is called a Terminal because it is the terminus of the Metro North Railroads (Grand Central on the subway is just a stop). On the other side of Manhattan, Penn Station is just a stop on Amtrak between Philadelphia and Boston, so "station" (which means Boston's South Station should really be South Terminal, but I think there have always been plans to link North and South Stations, hence the name.

Subways also have terminals, but in practice the trains just circle back to begin their routes again, so everything's a stop. For example, if you take the "green" subway downtown (as built, this route was called the IRT Lexington line, and real New Yorkers* still call the subway lines by their old company names), you'll see that the 4 or 5 train, in Manhattan, is express, so it makes limited stops (in this example GCT, 14th, Brooklyn Bridge/City Hall, and so on), while the 6 is local and the slow boat to China. Or Chinatown, whatever. The 6's terminus is Brooklyn Bridge/City Hall, so perhaps that station could be called the 6 Terminal, but no one ever says this.

Coney Island, however, is the terminus of a bunch of lines, as well as where Brooklyn runs out of land, so I suppose someone does call that a Terminal.

Hope the above's of some interest.




*and those like myself who merely pretend to be real New Yorkers

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by RAILhead

Heading to NY for the first time ever, and as we look at the subway routes, etc., we're OVERWHELMED (as I'm sure you can imagine for a NY n00b).

I'm studying everything and looking at where we're going, but I thought I'd ask this:

Let's say I'm at Grand Central and I want to go to Grimaldi's in Brooklyn (19 Old Fulton St.).

What's the EASIEST and most SIMPLE (not necessarily the fastest) way for a n00b to get there via the subway?

I just ate at Grimaldi's this past Sunday--great pizza. I would second Timo's advice. Take the 4 or 5 to Brooklyn Bridge, walk across it and then head to Grimaldi's. Brooklyn Heights is beautiful. If you get a little lost let it roll, you discover some of the coolest stuff just wandering.

Or, if you buy me pizza I'll meet you at Grand Central and take you there myself. lol.

[RAILhead]

Originally Posted by Timo

I'm not sure I understand your question, but rest assured it's not that complicated.

What I meant was, on the maps I see stops and terminals -- buttloads of stops, and a few terminals. That said, am I able to get onto a train at any "stop," or do you board only at "terminals" yaddah yaddah yaddah.

If you can get on or off at any stop or terminal, what's the difference between the two? The "terminal" is just a bigger place or something?

[paul w]

Timo answered that well enough. The subway lines are seperate from the other transit lines that may happen to be in the same physical station (like Grand Central and Penn Station and other stations that connect with other commuter rails and buses).

If you're only riding the subway, don't worry about it, every station (be it a stop, terminal or whatever you want to call it) is the same, and you can usually transfer freely between different subway lines once in the system.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Person Man

Nope. Sorry. $10 a pop is too expensive.

I'd rather take $24 and have all you can eat. Even if you only ride the subway 4 times, it's still cheaper than a taxi.

What if there are four people (or more) in your group? You're at least talking $96 then. Not cheap if you ask me.

[Timo]

Each ride is, max, $2. Just get a refillable card. If you can tell you'll have more than 4 subway rides in one day, get a one day pass, and so on.

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by Railroader

What if there are four people (or more) in your group? You're at least talking $96 then. Not cheap if you ask me.

Still $24 per person. Depends on how long you're going to be there, and how often you'll be travelling.

My uncle and I both had passes in 2002 (they were $17 then), and we rode the subway at least 6-8 times each day. And that doesn't count the bus rides (you can use the metrocard on the bus).

56 rides in one week = roughly 43 cents a ride at $24/week. Even with four people taking 56 taxi rides at $10 a ride, split evenly among the riders, is $140 total per person.

It may make sense to ride the taxi IF you're in a small group and only take a few (i.e. no more than 3 or 4 total) trips. But if you're going to be doing serious sightseeing and going to more than 2 attractions a day, then a taxi makes NO financial sense.

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by Timo

Each ride is, max, $2. Just get a refillable card. If you can tell you'll have more than 4 subway rides in one day, get a one day pass, and so on.

Exactly. Every time I go to NYC, it's for at least 5 days, and I always get a week long MetroCard, because I KNOW I'm going to be using the public transportation enough to get my money's worth.

[Dork.]

It's really not that complicated, once you get the hang of a few things:

1) The different colors on the subway map are important. All the lines that are the same color are related in that they share most of their track in Manhattan. Different lines that are the same color may diverge in the outer bouroughs.

2) As Timo said, when there are multiple lines running on the same track (especially in Manhattan), some lines will be express trains (and skip stops), and some lines will be local trains (and make all stops). On the map, the solid black dots are local stops, and the white dots with the black outline are express stops.

"Terminals" on this map (square boxes) are just the places where trains stop and turn around at the end of their run. Some lines may have more than two terminals listed on the map because their routes get shorter off-hours.

If you're traveling in Manhattan, all you really need to know ahead of time is whether your stop is a local or an express stop, so you know which train to get on. If you're traveling out of Manhattan, you need to know which specific train you need to be on. And if you're traveling after hours, you need to make sure you understand how service changes.

Hope that helps!

(BTW, here's a cool site I found with more pictures of the subway system than you can shake a stick at....)

[lurkalot]

If you have a guide book, most places will be identified with their lines and closest subway station. If you have a computer and internet access you can plan ahead with something like this. Also, pick up a small free map of the system in one of the stations. They are relatively small and really useful for planning your transfers etc while in the system. With less graffiti on the trains these days the signs/charts on the trains themselves can be read easily as well. As others have said, it isn't as complicated as it looks when you're not yet there. As others have also said, getting to within the general area and then walking the rest of the way/time is a good idea. You might get a bit sweaty this time of the year though...

[James L]

NYC is pretty easy to navigate once you get the hang of the system, between the subway and the cross town buses.

I second the metro card (1 week card currently $24 per person). It covers all your transportation needs for a week. Done.

Depending on what we want to see, my wife and I often also get the city pass:

http://www.citypass.com/city/ny.html?id=f3QM9BoY

Which saves you money on the sites, and also gets you past some line ups at some of the attractions.

If you are flying in, be aware that as you exit the airport you will be attacked by car services wanting to drive you in (seems to happen to me every time). I have found their rates to vary quite a bit. Yellow cabs from the airports to the city are price controlled by the city though. JFK is $45 flat rate into the city (at least it was the last time I was there). I have heard of people paying over $100 from an airport into the city, so I just wanted to make sure you knew about this.

Have a blast there Railhead. I go to NYC as often as possible. It is an amazing, amazing city.

[maxintosh]

The NYC subway is still one of the world's best and by far the best it has been in the past 20 years. Period. However, the recent onslaught of weekend service changes can be confusing even to locals, so make sure you read the signs carefully. This is a sign of a growing and improving system though. Also, a system that tells you where a train is and when it is going to arrive (ala London, Paris, etc) is in progress, deploying on the fully-automated L next month, and the 1 through 6 lines over the next year, then eventually reaching the rest of the "lettered" lines and the 7 once has been fully automated.

A terminal just refers to the last stop on a route. At terminals all passengers have to leave the train because it is cleaned and then sometimes heads back to the yard for storage or staff changes. You can get on at any station, but Express trains don't stop at every stop like Locals. Just look at the stop on the big map and see which lines are indicated next to it. New trains (of which more and more are arriving) which talk and have digital maps and LED signs make it really easy to navigate.

If you're really looking for a public transit ride in from JFK, you can take the AirTrain to Jamaica and connect to the LIRR to Penn Station-34th St Manhattan. It takes about 45 minutes and costs $10-12 depending on time of day. It's often faster than a cab too.

[RAILhead]

Thanks for all the info, it's been REALLY helpful!

Another question, though: let's say I'm at 148th and I want to go downtown, back to Grand Central. Am I able to see via a sign or whatever that the 5 is still moving uptown? Do you see somewhere how long it will be until the train is heading downtown and about to get to the stop you're on?

Cripes, I don't know if that makes sense -- but I'm thinking like this working like elevators do: one line going "up" and "down" and if you're on the 10th floor and need to get to the lobby, you have to wait until the elevator gets to the 0th and comes back down.

Know what I mean?

[maxintosh]

Originally Posted by RAILhead

Thanks for all the info, it's been REALLY helpful!

Another question, though: let's say I'm at 148th and I want to go downtown, back to Grand Central. Am I able to see via a sign or whatever that the 5 is still moving uptown? Do you see somewhere how long it will be until the train is heading downtown and about to get to the stop you're on?

Cripes, I don't know if that makes sense -- but I'm thinking like this working like elevators do: one line going "up" and "down" and if you're on the 10th floor and need to get to the lobby, you have to wait until the elevator gets to the 0th and comes back down.

Know what I mean?

For someone with the name RAILhead... lol. Is this your first subway ride ever?

Trains come quite often (as little as 90 seconds apart) so clearly there must be tracks for both directions. You will go to the platform for the train that goes in the direction you need. Ie, follow the signs to the "Downtown" platform. At terminals (last stops), where trains crossover in order to reverse direction, there will be indication of which train will leave next (announcement or digital display). This concept is true for virtually every subway system in the world.

Each subway line uses 2, 3, or 4 tracks. With 2 tracks, there is local service only. With 3 tracks, there is express service in one direction only (the 7 Diamond during the AM rush, for example, has express service towards Manhattan.) With 4 tracks, there is express service both ways.

[RAILhead]

Originally Posted by maxintosh

For someone with the name RAILhead... lol. Is this your first subway ride ever?

Trains come quite often (as little as 90 seconds apart) so clearly there must be tracks for both directions. You will go to the platform for the train that goes in the direction you need. At terminals (last stops), where trains crossover in order to reverse direction, there will be indication of which train will leave next. This is true for virtually every subway system in the world.

Each subway line uses 2, 3, or 4 tracks. With 2 tracks, there is local service only. With 3 tracks, there is express service in one direction only (the 7 Diamond during the AM rush, for example, has express service towards Manhattan.) With 4 tracks, there is express service both ways.

Yeah, I've never been on a subway. We don't do mass transit here in Texas -- remember: it's all horses, cowboys, and big pickups!

So no, I didn't realize that the 4 train may actually have 4 tracks.

[maxintosh]

The 4 train only uses two of the tracks. The 4 and 5 are express, so they use the inside tracks and only stop at express stations. The 6 uses the outside tracks and stops at every station. This allows the 4 and 5 to zoom by the slower 6 train.

When the 4 and 5 diverge from the 6 train though, this is no longer true. Then there are only two tracks and both trains make all local stops.

This all sounds much more complicated than it is in practice.

You have light rail in Texan cities though, it works more or less the same way.

[maxintosh]

Here's an example of a two-track station:
http://www.travisruse.com/archives/2...in_platfro.php

Notice the signs tell you which side to board for the direction you desire.

[Dork.]

There are certain stations (mostly on the lines with numbers, which are the old IRT lines, and some of the elevated lines in the outer bouroughs) where there are two separate platforms on either side of the tracks with separate enterances on either side of the street, so if you go in the wrong side and go through the turnstile you have no way to reverse directions without leaving the station and paying the fare on the other side (or riding the wrong way to a place where you can switch.) So pay attention when you go into a smaller station to make sure the train is going in the direction you want to go. Signage is generally good at the enterances to those stations. You can always ask a token clerk, or whatever they call them now. (Assuming they haven't been replaced by robots yet.)

Also, the signs on the platforms that indicate which direction the train is going usually either say "Uptown" or "Downtown" in Manhattan, or list the final destination in that direction for trains going to the outer boroughs. In the picture that maxintosh linked to, the two 7 train tracks have signs that indicate the final destination in each direction. The 7 train is generally an East-West line, where "Uptown/Downtown" is not applicable, so trains to Times Square go West and trains to Flushing go East.

Also, here's a link to the PDF subway map from the MTA. It's the large one which (i assume) they have in all the subway cars. It lists which trains stop at which individual station pretty clearly, and you can zoom in to get a larger view at a particular area.

[Mithras]

I'd just like to third (or fourth?) the vote for walking across Brooklyn Bridge to or from the pizza joint. On a summer evening it'll be lovely.

In your previous thread, did I mention that you should check for performances at St Ann's Warehouse, which is just around the corner from Grimaldi's? Well, you should They have great stuff.

[Mithras]

Originally Posted by maxintosh

Here's an example of a two-track station:
http://www.travisruse.com/archives/2...in_platfro.php

Notice the signs tell you which side to board for the direction you desire.

Those are some really cool photos on that site; thanks.

[Timo]

It might be against your first instinct, RAILhead, but you can do really well with NYC Transit by knowing what stop you want to go to, in what direction that stop is (generally uptown or downtown; the conductors announce which outer borough the train is bound for, though not all trains leave Manhattan and one train doesn't enter it) and simply reading the signs on the platform. The subways work well because everything is very clearly marked.

Oh and don't hurry for a train. There's another one right behind it.

[osiris]

If you're near Brooklyn Heights, the NYC Transit Musuem is pretty cool (and cheap). There lots of working antique subway cars in an old station, plus exhibits on construction.

[RAILhead]

Thanks again for clarifying things. I know I'm overthinking, but I want to have a basic idea.

RE: the Brooklyn Bridge, the plan is to take a train there and walk back, weather permitting.

[James L]

One other thing if you get the Metro Card...

Be aware that once you swipe it and go through the turnstile, the card is made inactive for 18 minutes. I assume this is to prevent multiple people from using it at the same time, but could be confusing in some situations!

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by James L

One other thing if you get the Metro Card...

Be aware that once you swipe it and go through the turnstile, the card is made inactive for 18 minutes. I assume this is to prevent multiple people from using it at the same time, but could be confusing in some situations!

AFAIK, that's only if you buy a Unlimited-Use Metrocard, like a day pass. If you have a straight-fare Metrocard that deducts $2 per swipe, you have up to 4 shots on a single card before you get locked out. (You'll get the fare deducted on each swipe, though.) Then again, it's been ages since I've taken the NYC subway, so some of that may have changed.

[RAILhead]

Just the unlimited has the limit.

[Timo]

Originally Posted by RAILhead

Just the unlimited has the limit.

heh, funny oxymoron

[Silky Voice of The Gorn]

Welcome to NYC Railhead.

Like someone earlier said, the best general approach is to just look at where you are, where you want to go, and follow the platform signs. There will of course be exceptions, but once you're "in the system" you'll find it's not so confusing as it seems now.

Since you're staying near Grand Central Terminal, take a stroll east to check out the Public Library/Bryant Park (free wifi!), and up 5th Ave. to Rockefeller Center, St. Patricks, and of course the Mothership Apple Store at 59th Street Yeah it's all touristy stops, but first visit it's allowed.

By the way, if you're heading into Brooklyn, take time to stroll around Brooklyn Heights. Montague is a nice street of small shops and restaurants, and it leads right down to the Promenade with an amazing view of lower Manhattan. The Heights has wonderful old row houses and smallish mansions of the sea captain era.

[RAILhead]

Sweet, thanks for the info. I'm really excited about visiting Brooklyn — and my cameras (FZ30 and my Lomos) are DYING to snag some pics of places and people.

[Timo]

Originally Posted by RAILhead

Sweet, thanks for the info. I'm really excited about visiting Brooklyn — and my cameras (FZ30 and my Lomos) are DYING to snag some pics of places and people.

It's strange how popular Brooklyn has become. Our dear cornball borough president went so far as to install greeting signs at major road entrances from Queens or Manhattan; my favorite is:

Welcome to Brookyn! Believe the hype!

I know it makes some people groan, but I think it's funny.

--a Brooklynite

[RAILhead]

I'm wanting to capture some of the buildings and Brownstones and such, and it's my nderstadning that Brooklyn has some of the best.

[Timo]

Yes, that's true. There are, of course, tons of brownstones in Manhattan, but developmental pressures mean that many have been lost and almost all have been heavily modifed.

I live in Park Slope, which is the largest of NYC's historic districts, and basically is all brownstones. One stretch of Sixth Avenue there, south from Flatbush (and also sadly outside of the historic district) has remained basically unchanged since its construction 100-140 years ago -- a local historian notes that if you want to feel what urban New York felt like in the late nineteenth century, then this is the place to get that feel.

Of course, Brooklyn Heights has a lot of that feel as well (and is the oldest historic district in New York, being designated just before Greenwich Village, which BTW is well worth a visit), but is much grander and these days, very, very expensive. If brownstones are your thing you'll have plenty to see.

[RAILhead]

Thanks TImo!

[Silky Voice of The Gorn]

Did I say "Stroll east"? Phah! West, of course.
Fool me once, won't get fooled again.

[memory-minus]

RAILhead, I'm sure you'll be fine. There are plenty of signs and maps in every subway station. If you get lost, make sure you ask a local for directions. They love it when you do this and are always willing to be helpful.