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Daracle · Apr 28, 2004, 10:07 AM

Hey guys
I was watching a documentry on the Weather Underground and it was the first time I have ever heard of the grou and what they did during the mid to late 60's and early 70's
This has encouraged me to maybe do something in my area about the current "War" that is going on although being from Canada, one of the countries who decided to not get involved, would not make much sense and I would not be overly busy.
I think though that if I was alive in this era, I would join the movement that is the Weather Underground.

Would you?
What do you think about the group? Agree or diagree with the ideas or Tactics used by this group.

Weather Underground Documentry Information

rjenkinson · Apr 28, 2004, 10:11 AM

idiocy.

-r.

Daracle · Apr 28, 2004, 10:14 AM

Explain.

rjenkinson · Apr 28, 2004, 10:21 AM

Originally posted by Daracle:
Explain.

bombing
prison breaks
vandalism
destruction of property
violence

-r.

mitchell_pgh · Apr 28, 2004, 10:22 AM

Originally posted by Daracle:
Explain.

1) The war in Iraq isn't the Vietnam war.
2) Many people believe in this war.
3) Why should my neighbors pay for what the government chooses to do?
4) The Weather Underground sounds like a terrorist group.

"Hello, I'm going to read a declaration of a state of war...within the next 14 days we will attack a symbol or institution of American injustice." ~ Bernardine Dohrn

What an idealistic fool. Even the hippies hated this guy!

phoenixboy · Apr 28, 2004, 10:22 AM

ahhhh, those were the days. :-)

but seriously, things have really changed in the last thirty years, and no amount of civil unrest will work to change anything. the corpolitical fascists will either ignore you, or have you jailed by the donut force.

there are other, far more effective, ways of getting things done these days

.

smashing somebody's car, who might have saved up a long time to afford it, isn't very cool, no matter how (JUSTIFIABLY) angry you might be at the neocon corpolitical war gainst humanity.

plus running around wearing a football helmet and holding a steel pipe sure as hell isn't going to get you laid...not even in ohio.

mitchell_pgh · Apr 28, 2004, 10:32 AM

Originally posted by phoenixboy:
ahhhh, those were the days. :-)

but seriously, things have really changed in the last thirty years, and no amount of civil unrest will work to change anything. the corpolitical fascists will either ignore you, or have you jailed by the donut force.

there are other, far more effective, ways of getting things done these days .

smashing somebody's car, who might have saved up a long time to afford it, isn't very cool, no matter how (JUSTIFIABLY) angry you might be at the neocon corpolitical war gainst humanity.

plus running around wearing a football helmet and holding a steel pipe sure as hell isn't going to get you laid...not even in ohio.

Like I said, not everyone is against this war... I'm a moderate and am upset about how we got in to this mess, but I think it would be tragic if we just withdrew...

phoenixboy · Apr 28, 2004, 10:35 AM

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
Like I said, not everyone is against this war... I'm a moderate and am upset about how we got in to this mess, but I think it would be tragic if we just withdrew...

yup.

the damage has been done...

Daracle · Apr 28, 2004, 10:38 AM

How would it be Tragic if the states withdrew?
The war started because of some weapons that were never found.....

The idea you have is the same idea the government has....Your own people are being slain for no reason because of it.

phoenixboy · Apr 28, 2004, 10:46 AM

Originally posted by Daracle:
How would it be Tragic if the states withdrew?

one word: ruanda! (sp.??)

something like that might happen between shia and suni muslims. irak would (even faster than it already is) develop into a second afghanistan, giving rise to entire new slew of to be al'qaidas.

i said it before, i'll say it again. that war was one of the worst things the us could have done. but alas, it's too late now. it's all just a big mess.

oh, +1 before being moved to the pol. forum

Kilbey · Apr 28, 2004, 10:52 AM

Ha! I thought you meant Weather Underground.

Daracle · Apr 28, 2004, 10:56 AM

We could be arguing till we are blue in the face.

Its too bad that society today does not have the balls to do what has to be done for what you belive in.
It would never be able to happen like it did back then but the "Peaceful" protests that arent doing anything....Not even close to be taken seriously....Are not doing anything for the cause.

mitchell_pgh · Apr 28, 2004, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by Daracle:
How would it be Tragic if the states withdrew?
The war started because of some weapons that were never found.....

The idea you have is the same idea the government has....Your own people are being slain for no reason because of it.

I watch this war and have lost extended family to this war.

It would be tragic because:

1) The few people that are working with the US to rebuild Iraq would be slaughtered
(Tragicly, this happened the last time we were in Iraq)
2) There is no self governing body in place
3) Their military/police could not handle the organized terrorists
4) They could not afford to rebuild
5) The vacuum created would breed more anti-american sentiments

FYI, NONE of "my people" are being "slain"... they are being killed by an aggressive minority that feels it's acceptable to rule by force.

While I feel horrible about the loss of life, it's acceptable if in turn a democratic dictator free nation is born.

Originally posted by Daracle:
The war started because of some weapons that were never found.....

It was more then just "some weapons that were never found..." The elusive behavior regarding our weapons inspectors sparked it. We were told that there were WMD or that Iraq was preparing WMDs. While we haven't found a sparkling nuclear bomb, we have found many things that they shouldn't have been doing.

Originally posted by Daracle:
The idea you have is the same idea the government has...

You may be too young understand, but the government isn't evil. People make up the government, thus the government makes mistakes, some small, some large.

Originally posted by Daracle:
Your own people are being slain for no reason because of it.

I don't think there is "no reason"... the military is there to free a country, and more importantly (and honestly) to protect the US.

I don't totally agree with how we got there, and I wish we would have held out for the UN, but we didn't... now that we are there, I think we should do whatever we can to slowly hand over power to their people...

phoenixboy · Apr 28, 2004, 11:05 AM

Originally posted by Daracle:
... but the "Peaceful" protests that arent doing anything....Not even close to be taken seriously....

i totally agree with you. people who say "...well if they tried to get their message across peacefully, at least i would listen", are full of sh1t!

the thing is, even "violent protests" don't do a thing anymore, because they too are largely ignored. if it ever came to large scale violent uprisings against the corpolitical, they would just declare all the protestors "terrorists" (patriot act much?!

) and kill everybody involved. as a matter of fact, that's what i think is behind the crackdown on civil liberties, "due process" etc.

there are other ways...think "logistics"...think "communication"

phoenixboy · Apr 28, 2004, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
...the military is there to free a country, and more importantly (and honestly) to protect the US.

sorry, bullsh1t!

mitchell_pgh · Apr 28, 2004, 11:13 AM

Originally posted by Daracle:
We could be arguing till we are blue in the face.

Its too bad that society today does not have the balls to do what has to be done for what you belive in.
It would never be able to happen like it did back then but the "Peaceful" protests that arent doing anything....Not even close to be taken seriously....Are not doing anything for the cause.

You sound crazy.

Violent protests only hurt the average citizen, NOT the people making the decisions.

Here is a clue: violence isn't the answer. Violence only breeds violence.

Look to history, and you will see the framework of the future.

Daracle · Apr 28, 2004, 11:13 AM

I may be young but I dont go running around yelling anarchy and smashing in windows to avenge the "Man"
But the government you elected is evil.
They do not have the people in mind and if I were an american citizen, I would have the night that Bush was elected.
They started a war that was not backed by the U.N. and are now trying to finish it in Fear of what is going to happen on United States Soil.
I bet if you asked the soldiers if they would prefer to be home with thier family or fighting someone elses war that they should not have been involved with from the beginning....Most would be wanting to go home.
This SHOULD have the same anti-war protests that was seen for Vietnam, but it cannot for fear of being a "Terrorist" or a "Terroist Group"......We all know what happens to them.

I am sorry you had to lose family and I am sorry to everyone else that had to lose family and friends due to this.

If only it had a cause.

mitchell_pgh · Apr 28, 2004, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by phoenixboy:
sorry, bullsh1t!

Well, and oil and to break up a regime... seriously, why else would we be there...

Daracle · Apr 28, 2004, 11:17 AM

The framework of a future?

Looks to be like a country was getting screwed by americas muscle back then and they decide to do it again....With no regard to what the citizens thought then or now.
Not even backing by the U.N.

Who is really the terrorist government.

phoenixboy · Apr 28, 2004, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
...seriously, why else would we be there...

seriously?

a) oil
b) to protect israel (pushed by the neocons)
c) personal revenge (bush)
d) military "foothold" in the area
e) did i mention oil yet?

like letterman said:"...for those writing out the checks to rebuild iraq, - halliburton is spelled with two "l"s!"

Daracle · Apr 28, 2004, 11:23 AM

Also...I may sound crazy, but I am just your friendly neighbor to the North who is deeply sad to see innocent Men and Women killed for something that has no cause.

As much as I would hate to see it, but what if the war was in your backyard or in your childs park. You wouldnt be so keen on this "war"

mitchell_pgh · Apr 28, 2004, 11:34 AM

Originally posted by Daracle:
I may be young but I dont go running around yelling anarchy and smashing in windows to avenge the "Man"

Well, that's what what you were talking about... physical violence against the current war.

Originally posted by Daracle:
But the government you elected is evil.

I don't agree, perhaps misguided... but remember, he did win the election (not the popular vote). More states sided with him then against him. I don't think he is evil. He has made some errors.

Originally posted by Daracle:
They do not have the people in mind and if I were an american citizen, I would have the night that Bush was elected.

They have the citizens in mind, but it's their idea of how they have us in mind that I question. P.S. Our government isn't only Bush... Bush only has so much power... but I guess you don't know that (acceptable considering you aren't from the US). The House of Reps. and Congress also have a say.

Originally posted by Daracle:
They started a war that was not backed by the U.N. and are now trying to finish it in Fear of what is going to happen on United States Soil.

While I support the UN, working with the French is impossible. They don't want to fight ANYONE (I feel it's in fear of France becoming the next terrorist playground). When the French said "we won't support any military action" before even hearing all of the information... that's when I knew we we weren't going to get their support.

Originally posted by Daracle:
I bet if you asked the soldiers if they would prefer to be home with thier family or fighting someone elses war that they should not have been involved with from the beginning....Most would be wanting to go home.

That is such a loaded statement, I don't even know where to begin. Many of them are satisfied to be over there serving their country. Naturally everyone wants to come home, but you don't hear of people going AWOL (because it would be all over the radio)

Originally posted by Daracle:
This SHOULD have the same anti-war protests that was seen for Vietnam, but it cannot for fear of being a "Terrorist" or a "Terroist Group"......We all know what happens to them.

No it shouldn't. Vietnam was totally different. Vietnam was an non-winnable war. We should have taken a cue from the French.

mitchell_pgh · Apr 28, 2004, 11:37 AM

Originally posted by Daracle:
The framework of a future?

Looks to be like a country was getting screwed by americas muscle back then and they decide to do it again....With no regard to what the citizens thought then or now.
Not even backing by the U.N.

Who is really the terrorist government.

Yah, America is the terrorist government

P.S. Nobody said you MUST go through the U.N. It's not some rule. It would have been nice, and I would have supported the war if they did, but they didn't.

Daracle · Apr 28, 2004, 11:39 AM

Iraq is obviously a non-Winnable war as well....

Very true that Bush only has so much power but he sure pushed that power on the International level when he started "A War" (Actually it was an invasion) when he didnt have the backing of the U.N.
That is a big one for me....He did not have the support from the international groups.

What would have happened if Saddam tried the same thing?
The states would be involved in something worth while

mitchell_pgh · Apr 28, 2004, 11:42 AM

Originally posted by phoenixboy:
seriously?

a) oil
b) to protect israel (pushed by the neocons)
c) personal revenge (bush)
d) military "foothold" in the area
e) did i mention oil yet?

like letterman said:"...for those writing out the checks to rebuild iraq, - halliburton is spelled with two "l"s!"

I agree with the oil thing... but we don't get much from Iraq anyway... Also, I'll be happy when the money is spent more on the people and not on multiple Billion dollar presidential estates that made the Taj mahal_look like a Holiday Inn.

I don't buy the personal revenge thing, and the military foothold as I don't think we plan to stay.

phoenixboy · Apr 28, 2004, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
I don't buy the personal revenge thing, and the military foothold as I don't think we plan to stay.

think again.

mitchell_pgh · Apr 28, 2004, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by Daracle:
Iraq is obviously a non-Winnable war as well....

Very true that Bush only has so much power but he sure pushed that power on the International level when he started "A War" (Actually it was an invasion) when he didnt have the backing of the U.N.
That is a big one for me....He did not have the support from the international groups.

What would have happened if Saddam tried the same thing?
The states would be involved in something worth while

Like I said, we don't need permission from the U.N. to start wars.

As for the "War" part, we have already "won" in that the dictator is out of power and in jail. Their military is almost gone. We now dealing with the gorilla warfare. While people are dying, it's mostly under control.

mitchell_pgh · Apr 28, 2004, 11:53 AM

Originally posted by phoenixboy:
think again.

I don't... If the US drags this out, everyone will be against it. I'm find with them sending more troops over, but if they don't start scaling the numbers back within the next eight months, you are going to see a major anti-war movement.

Daracle · Apr 28, 2004, 11:55 AM

Under control?

Do you see what has been happening even in the last 24hours?
Thats desperation because they were far from having everythin "Undercontrol"

mitchell_pgh · Apr 28, 2004, 12:53 PM

Originally posted by Daracle:
Under control?

Do you see what has been happening even in the last 24hours?
Thats desperation because they were far from having everythin "Undercontrol"

1) The town isn't that big
2) Yes, we are in control. There are hot pockets and ensurgents, but on an overall view, it's controlled.

There have been 829 coalition deaths, (725 of which were Americans) in Iraq

There were 58,219 Americans killed in Vietnam (over 20 years).

Even if you spread that number over the 20 years, it's about 1/3 as many deaths as Iraq.

I hope you see the foolishness of your comparison between Vietnam and Iraq.
OK, I'm not going to post anymore...

memento · Apr 28, 2004, 03:10 PM

you da man mitchell! I read this thread because I thought it was about the weather website.

Back on topic, I totally disagree with these tactics. What good does it do?

"...the Weather Underground waged a low-level war against the U.S. government through much of the 1970s--bombing targets across the country..."

What a stupid tactic - especially today. Yeah - let's randomly smash innocent people's cars and shops. idiots. Any US citizen that bombs anything inside the US should be shot on the spot. Heck, bomb anything without authorization and you should be shot.

phoenixboy · Apr 28, 2004, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
I don't... If the US drags this out, everyone will be against it. I'm find with them sending more troops over, but if they don't start scaling the numbers back within the next eight months, you are going to see a major anti-war movement.

errr, everybody already is against it.

the problem is that the plan was to just get in, do away with saddam and leave a sizeable contingent to strike against "terrorism" from within the middle east...of course it didn't quite work out that way.

dtriska · Apr 28, 2004, 03:44 PM

Let's see...

The Weathermen: domestic terrorists.

The Iraq War: not yet a Vietnam (and most likely won't be), shouldn't have happened in the first place, but the US gets to stick it out. Don't be fooled into thinking the US will be out before the end of the year. I see US troops being in Iraq into 2006 or even later. The situation's just too volatile.

Oh, and the US doesn't need UN backing to go to war. Just don't expect the UN (aka the international community) to help when things go wrong.

RAILhead · Apr 28, 2004, 03:55 PM

Originally posted by phoenixboy:
errr, everybody already is against it.

*I�m* not against it, so don�t lump me in with that comment.

Oh, and I popped in because I thought this was about the weather web site, too.

phoenixboy · Apr 28, 2004, 04:01 PM

Originally posted by RAILhead:
*I�m* not against it, so don�t lump me in with that comment.

damn, i knew somebody would come up and say something like this as soon as i posted it. okay, then, everybody is against it except american reactionaries and zionists.

RAILhead · Apr 28, 2004, 04:03 PM

Originally posted by phoenixboy:
damn, i knew somebody would come up and say something like this as soon as i posted it. okay, then, everybody is against it except american reactionaries and zionists.

*I�m* not an american reactionary or zionist, so don�t lump me in with that comment.

Maury

phoenixboy · Apr 28, 2004, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by RAILhead:
*I�m* not an american reactionary

oh, you're not an american..sorry, i'll "exclude" you then.

Shaddim · Apr 28, 2004, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by phoenixboy:
think again.

or, you could actually START thinking, instead of just reacting.

Shaddim · Apr 28, 2004, 04:38 PM

Originally posted by Daracle:
Hey guys
I was watching a documentry on the Weather Underground and it was the first time I have ever heard of the grou and what they did during the mid to late 60's and early 70's
This has encouraged me to maybe do something in my area about the current "War" that is going on although being from Canada, one of the countries who decided to not get involved, would not make much sense and I would not be overly busy.
I think though that if I was alive in this era, I would join the movement that is the Weather Underground.

Would you?
What do you think about the group? Agree or diagree with the ideas or Tactics used by this group.

Weather Underground Documentry Information

FYI, if I saw one of those idiots doing something stupid like that, I wouldn't bother calling the cops, I'd personally shoot them.

Shaddim · Apr 28, 2004, 04:40 PM

Originally posted by phoenixboy:
errr, everybody already is against it.

the problem is that the plan was to just get in, do away with saddam and leave a sizeable contingent to strike against "terrorism" from within the middle east...of course it didn't quite work out that way.

Why are you so "thick"? The majority of Americans still support the war in Iraq. where DO you get that crap from?

Daracle · Apr 28, 2004, 04:49 PM

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Why are you so "thick"? The majority of Americans still support the war in Iraq. where DO you get that crap from?

You are telling me that after the numerous anti-war gatherings with multiple millions of people taking part not only in the US but the world....The majority are FOR this so called "War"

Where are you getting your info from

phoenixboy · Apr 28, 2004, 05:16 PM

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Why are you so "thick"? The majority of Americans still support the war in Iraq. where DO you get that crap from?

why don't you read the entire thread then before you post. i already revised my statement. and that most americans are stupid fu<king reactionaries by now could well be. who knows.

and to be quite honest, i'm sick and tired of your neo conservative sh1t as well. all you ever do is come in and spread your crap, looking more ignorant than a russian mailorder bride. you're the posterchild for the typical dumb conservative american (yeah, davinci was a well known conservative, inspite of being one of the most progressive people..read a little bit more about art history and davinci, and a little bit less of your hobgoblin farytale trash) that might be quite the rage in the us, but believe me, the rest of the world scoffs at your neanderthal a$$.

"the majority of americans still support the war"...well, how the fu<k do you kow??? what kind of dumba$$ statement is that anyway?

you can just keep your retarded little a$$ in tennessee, and preach your hokus pokus bogus even centuries after the enlightenment. see if i give a ****. i'm just glad i don't have to deal with fu<kwits like you on a daily basis. i've talked to people from britain, spain, italy, africa, greece, germany, irak, iran, china...damn people from turkey...NOBODY...repeat...NOBODY!!! supports this ****ing war! and to tell you the truth, i don't give a fu<k about reactionary america, or reactionary anything for that sake.

good riddance fu<ko. may you have many "honey dripping" experiences.

/rant

ignore list +1

Daracle · Apr 28, 2004, 05:23 PM

Originally posted by phoenixboy:
why don't you read the entire thread then before you post. i already revised my statement. and that most americans are stupid fu<king reactionaries by now could well be. who knows.

and to be quite honest, i'm sick and tired of your neo conservative sh1t as well. all you ever do is come in and spread your crap, looking more ignorant than a russian mailorder bride. you're the posterchild for the typical dumb conservative american (yeah, davinci was a well known conservative, inspite of being one of the most progressive people..read a little bit more about art history and davinci, and a little bit less of your hobgoblin farytale trash) that might be quite the rage in the us, but believe me, the rest of the world scoffs at your neanderthal a$$.

"the majority of americans still support the war"...well, how the fu<k do you kow??? what kind of dumba$$ statement is that anyway?

you can just keep your retarded little a$$ in tennessee, and preach your hokus pokus bogus even centuries after the enlightenment. see if i give a ****. i'm just glad i don't have to deal with fu<kwits like you on a daily basis. i've talked to people from britain, spain, italy, africa, greece, germany, irak, iran, china...damn people from turkey...NOBODY...repeat...NOBODY!!! supports this ****ing war! and to tell you the truth, i don't give a fu<k about reactionary america, or reactionary anything for that sake.

good riddance fu<ko. may you have many "honey dripping" experiences.

/rant

ignore list +1

May not be one of the most intelligent posts I have read but I think it worked better then he even thought....Thanks dude

Corintheus · Apr 28, 2004, 08:02 PM

I think the comparison to Vietnam comes from the fact that the US shouldn't have really been there in the first place. And now that the US are there, they're refusing to pull out, despite the casualties. So basically, here's the similarities: Vietnam was a **** up. Iraq is a **** up.

g. olson · Apr 28, 2004, 08:12 PM

Originally posted by memento:
What a stupid tactic - especially today. Yeah - let's randomly smash innocent people's cars and shops. idiots. Any US citizen that bombs anything inside the US should be shot on the spot. Heck, bomb anything without authorization and you should be shot.

I assume that your sentiment would apply to abortion clinic bombers too. I saw the documentary on the Weather Underground last night and actually lived through the sixties (well, I probably lost a few unecessary brain cells.) What disturbs me is that we radicalized politics from the left, and now the right wing fundamentalist zealots have picked up the torch. If the Weather Underground learned anything, and some of them sure did, they learned that if you think you have God on your side, see everything in black and white, and think you have a corner on the "truth" you are capable of almost anything. What puzzles me is that people don't seem to see the parallels between the 9/11 bombers and the true believers like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell. They have a lot more in common than either would like to admit. They both hate libertarian, free-thinking, pursue your happiness open society and think our culture is morally bankrupt.

olePigeon · Apr 28, 2004, 08:34 PM

For those of you who "believe in it," what's the war about again?

voyageur · Apr 29, 2004, 08:31 AM

"You don't need a Weatherman to know which way the wind blows"
--Dylan, Subterranean Homesick Blues

memento · Apr 29, 2004, 09:51 AM

Originally posted by g. olson:
I assume that your sentiment would apply to abortion clinic bombers too....

I can't say that I know anything about that. I assume you mean that there are people who bomb abortion clinics. And if that's true, then my sentiment also applies to that. Fully. WTF? Why do people have to bomb stuff? That's rediculous. I'm not saying that I agree with abortion, in my mind life begins at conception and abortion is not an option. But to bomb an abortion clinic is not cool.

What's next? Greenpeace and Sierra Club bombing power plants? Any other bombing groups that I don't know about?