[mindwaves]

So I know this person who is going to a Tier 4 law school according to the US News and World Report. But why?!

It's still very expensive to do so and you will have a hard type trying to get employed at some sort of law firm. The percentage of students employed right after graduation at a top tier law school hovers around 97% while a tier 4 law student hovers around 38%.

Not only is this person going to a Tier 4 law school, but it is at the bottom tier. For a tuition of nearly $31,000 annually, it is so not worth it. You can get a better education at a public state college with a better chance of being hired somewhere else. It won't be a law school, but say if you went into some other field, then you'll have a better chance of being hired, better respected, and maybe even get paid more.

[Dakar²]

The better question is, why would you want to become a lawyer?

[residentEvil]

well, michigan state univeristy is listed there. while their law program may not be all that; the school sure is a lot more fun* than all but maybe 10 or 12 other universities in the country.

*sports, partying, etc.

[Kerrigan]

If you went to a crappy university and made mediocre grades and did poorly on the LSAT and got rejected by decent law schools, then I could understand why one would delude oneself into going to a crap 3rd tier school.

Of course, killing oneself is a quicker, cheaper, more effective option ;-p

[ShortcutToMoncton]

IMO, any school you go to is what you make of it. As Kerrigan said, if your grades and LSAT score aren't that good, and you just really want to be a lawyer, well, hey...if you get into a Tier 4, good for you. But what are the odds that people with poor grades and LSAT will come out of any law school with stellar grades? Probably not that great for the most part, but their are plenty of people who just didn't try enough before they got in, or didn't start trying until it was almost too late (I almost fall into that catagory!). I'm sure even if they come out of a Tier 4, they can get good jobs by their grades and interviews. I have trouble thinking that a Tier 3 school should be called "crap," though.

I guess there's lots of reasons...but damn, you guys have a shitload of law schools down there! We've got about 18 in Canada, at least a few of whom are French-oriented. Perhaps because of this (and with the more-public funding) ours seem to be relatively more consistent in quality for the most part. Just from scanning through those lists it's pretty amazing what a difference in entrance requirements there are between Tiers! Crazy stuff.

greg

[alligator]

Are you nuts? I seriously doubt your statistics. I know several people who went to a tier 4 school and are very successful with very well paying positions. Life is what you make it, not what your resume says.

Get off your high horse and mingle with the common folk. You just might learn something.

[macintologist]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

The better question is, why would you want to become a lawyer?

Criminal defense for the indigent.

Other than that, good question. Lawyers are scum. F*** 'em.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

Criminal defense for the indigent.

Other than that, good question. Lawyers are scum. F*** 'em.

**** off. Go prove your ignorance somewhere else.

greg

[Captain Obvious]

Everyone hates attorneys until they need one.

And despite the disdain morons have for the profession when you clear 150k a year it doesn't really bother you in the least what they think.

Anyway, there's still a decent living to be made for some people who go to 4th tier schools. They can go into practice for themselves, go into a friend's or family member's practice, or go into another field where the degree just adds to the marketability of the person. Plus I know a few people who went to 3rd and 4th tier schools because they didn't get into better schools the first time around. Then they did well their first year and transferred to a better school.

Law school has been a lot harder to get into the past 5 years. It’s far more competitive now than ever before and with the economy being rather stagnant more college grads don't know what else to do so the number of applicants is through the roof.

[wolfen]

Bottom line: motivated people are more successful. The correlations between education and pay scale are largely a reflection of this fact. If people who ran through fields of flaming feces were prized in an industry, the motivated applicants would have scorched feet and smell like sh*t.

I did a lot of business with lawyers in a relatively small city for several years. I was amazed how many partners and higher ups had law degrees from no-name law schools. In fact, rural/small town lawyers are not likely to be tier 1 graduates but they enjoy a decent quality of life and can establish longer term relationships with less stress than highly competitive markets.

These days my lawyer friends and customers are more concerned about declining pay and the glut of law graduates than they are about what tier their competition graduated from.

[GSixZero]

All law schools teach the same stuff, the same way. In all reality going to Yale or Harvard or NYU doesn't make you a better lawyer.

Good schools do allow for better networking and job opportunities, but that doesn't mean lower ranked schools aren't worth going to.

I've thought about going to law school, and one I looked at isn't a great school, but offers great ability to get experience working with local social justice programs and they just recently had an alum win a case in the supreme court (the gitmo rights case).

[macintologist]

Originally Posted by Captain Obvious 

Everyone hates attorneys until they need one.

No thanks but I'll do my own legal research. Lawyers exist simply to exploit the legal system and leech off of hard working people who don't have the education needed to understand the artificially-complicated wording of the laws, ie. legalese.

Of course criminal defense for the poor is completely different and is an honorable position. Corporate lawyers aren't bad either, they aren't leeches. It's the ones that work for individuals and charge $ 250/hr just to drive somewhere that rips off the common people and it pisses me off. F***ing parasites.


F*** 'em.

[mindwaves]

Originally Posted by alligator 

Are you nuts? I seriously doubt your statistics. I know several people who went to a tier 4 school and are very successful with very well paying positions. Life is what you make it, not what your resume says.

Get off your high horse and mingle with the common folk. You just might learn something.

I didn't state any statistics besides the ones listed in the report which did you even read?

[SSharon]

It seems obvious that I should post here since I go to one of these no name schools you speak of. I chose the school I did for many reasons but the networking aspect is particularly important. The school I chose just moved into a new building next door to both New York state and federal courthouses. We have programs that get us involved in a way that other law students don't do until much later.
Also, because the school is concerned with improving its rankings it has been paying big bucks to get some really excellent teachers. They also like to fail the bottom 20% of the first year class so the bar passage rate goes up (which it did by 14 points from last year to this year).
The job placement rate at my school is also competitive with other NY schools.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

No thanks but I'll do my own legal research. Lawyers exist simply to exploit the legal system and leech off of hard working people who don't have the education needed to understand the artificially-complicated wording of the laws, ie. legalese.

Of course criminal defense for the poor is completely different and is an honorable position. Corporate lawyers aren't bad either, they aren't leeches. It's the ones that work for individuals and charge $ 250/hr just to drive somewhere that rips off the common people and it pisses me off. F***ing parasites.


F*** 'em.

*snort*

You're a moron. You'll "do your own legal research?" Yeah, good ****in luck getting through the tax law any time soon, or any number of areas where people spend years in school studying the intricacies of the text and the law.

Your position is completely illogical. Corporate lawyers aren't leeches, but private lawyers who charge their customers are?! Jebus, you do know that corporate lawyers get paid too, right?? And in fact very, very well? And yet, since they don't have to charge the "common people" directly, they're somehow okay in your books? I mean, it's not like companies don't have to figure the cost of maintaining their corporate lawyer team into their prices and/or profits or anything, right?

Nice try at an argument, though. Take your stereotypes somewhere else, please.

greg

[macintologist]

Lawyers who genuinely try to help navigate people through the complex legal system are ok in my book. It's the parasites that I have a problem with. Ie. the prosecutors that turn civil and criminal cases into an industry.

[driven]

I'd love to go to law school to learn the law. I doubt I'd ever want to be a lawyer. Any school would be fine for me. (Then again, so would a ten-foot stack of books.) (sigh)

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by Captain Obvious 

Everyone hates attorneys until they need one.

Well, duh.

Originally Posted by Captain Obvious 

And despite the disdain morons have for the profession when you clear 150k a year it doesn't really bother you in the least what they think.

Is that the going rate for one's soul?

[driven]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

Well, duh.

Is that the going rate for one's soul?

So you are saying that someone who is totally uneducated and ignorant of the law is somehow a better person than someone who educates themselves in the law?

To put the best spin on this possible, that's a fairly narrow minded point of view. Law has been a part of society since Hammurabi. Ignoring the legal system, or making ad homonym statements about those that practice it seems fairly ignorant.

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by driven 

So you are saying that someone who is totally uneducated and ignorant of the law is somehow a better person than someone who educates themselves in the law?

No.

Originally Posted by driven 

To put the best spin on this possible, that's a fairly narrow minded point of view. Law has been a part of society since Hammurabi. Ignoring the legal system, or making ad homonym statements about those that practice it seems fairly ignorant.

Or fairly generic humor.

[driven]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

No.

Or fairly generic humor.

--

[Dakar²]

In all honesty, the longer I live the less respect I have for the profession. There's no doubt you must have a lot of knowledge as well as good oratory skill.

But other things, like the fact that winning is more important than being right, and how much of those million dollar settlements actually go to the victims, have soured me on the profession.

Most people don't enter the job for the love of justice. They do it for the money.

[SSharon]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

In all honesty, the longer I live the less respect I have for the profession. There's no doubt you must have a lot of knowledge as well as good oratory skill.

But other things, like the fact that winning is more important than being right, and how much of those million dollar settlements actually go to the victims, have soured me on the profession.

Most people don't enter the job for the love of justice. They do it for the money.

It is a business like any other. I know a few plastic surgeons that shock, don't actually care about helping people, they did it for the money.

This is America, become a lawyer and charge less than everyone else. Even with a huge supply of lawyers the demand still seems to be there.

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by SSharon 

It is a business like any other. I know a few plastic surgeons that shock, don't actually care about helping people, they did it for the money.

It's plastic surgery, its superficial to begin with.

[Millennium]

People who go to Tier 4 law schools likely do so for the same reasons that many people go to community colleges: either they can't afford something 'better' or they can't get into something 'better' right now. Many probably intend to transfer their credits to a 'better' law school in a couple of years, so that they'll get the degree from the better school without having to deal with the money or entrance problems right away.

A degree from a Tier-1 school looks the same whether you spent your whole time there or only half of it.

[macintologist]

Originally Posted by SSharon 

It is a business like any other. I know a few plastic surgeons that shock, don't actually care about helping people, they did it for the money.

This is America, become a lawyer and charge less than everyone else. Even with a huge supply of lawyers the demand still seems to be there.

Yea but here's the difference. Plastic surgery is a private practice between contracting individuals and doesn't affect anybody else. Lawyers on the other hand exploit the force of the LAW, ie. something that is coercive and affects everybody. See the difference?

[SSharon]

Not all plastic surgeons do superficial work in the sense I think you mean it. A plastic surgeon might fix a deviated septum, but I would hardly call that a nose job as it may look the same before and after the procedure.

Lawyers exploit the law? Do you dislike police and judges too? The law changes and therefore the various interpretations aren't just expected from lawyers, they help drive the system. Perhaps it is unfortunate that loopholes are only closed after someone 'gets off the hook' but that is how we identify what in the system needs fixing.
Blanket statements are dangerous criminal and civil law are totally different beasts.

[mindwaves]

Originally Posted by Millennium 

People who go to Tier 4 law schools likely do so for the same reasons that many people go to community colleges: either they can't afford something 'better' or they can't get into something 'better' right now. Many probably intend to transfer their credits to a 'better' law school in a couple of years, so that they'll get the degree from the better school without having to deal with the money or entrance problems right away.

A degree from a Tier-1 school looks the same whether you spent your whole time there or only half of it.

That's the thing. Yale, the #1 on the list of the Tier 1 I believe is $38k/yr and the top Tier 4 college is $31k/yr. That is not much of a difference at all considering their rankings. A community college is MUCH cheaper. I'm sure some of the Tier 4 colleges are cheaper, but the US News and World report only lists the top 2-3 school's statistics.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

UCLA Berkeley has damn cheap in-state tuition (24 grand) for such a good school. I was interested when they emailed me some Hype, but then I saw their out-of-state tuition. Damn! Oh well, the snowboarding's better up here anyway....

greg

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by mindwaves 

That's the thing. Yale, the #1 on the list of the Tier 1 I believe is $38k/yr and the top Tier 4 college is $31k/yr. That is not much of a difference at all considering their rankings. A community college is MUCH cheaper. I'm sure some of the Tier 4 colleges are cheaper, but the US News and World report only lists the top 2-3 school's statistics.

True, but again, price isn't the only consideration that factors into these. What about a person who couldn't get into Yale on his first try, but hopes that with a couple of years at a lower-tier school under his belt he might be able to try in later?

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

Lawyers who genuinely try to help navigate people through the complex legal system are ok in my book. It's the parasites that I have a problem with. Ie. the prosecutors that turn civil and criminal cases into an industry.

Ohhhhh, it's the lawyers who turn those civil and criminal (?!) cases into an industry! I see! That makes so much sense now! And here I thought it was just the nation's laws and its people that made it such! Damn, it's all so much easier when you can just blame the lawyers, isn't it?!

You're starting to sound like Cody – on some sort of illogical personal vendetta. I know lawyers in private, government and corporate practice – and they're all nice people, love helping others, and enjoy what they do, whether it be nailing corporations to the wall for killing the environment, getting corporations out of being nailed to the wall for polluting the environment, finding clever ways to reduce companies' taxes, getting the best deal for divorcing clients, and on and on – all things that their clients just couldn't do themselves without headache, or perhaps even at all. So far you've done nothing but rant vaguely about "screwing the common people." Sounds...well-reasoned, I'm sure.

greg

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Millennium 

True, but again, price isn't the only consideration that factors into these. What about a person who couldn't get into Yale on his first try, but hopes that with a couple of years at a lower-tier school under his belt he might be able to try in later?

Hahahaha....someone who can't quite get into Yale and goes into a Tier-4 school is clearly insane. I looked at Yale's requirements, and then giggled like a schoolgirl.

greg

[SSharon]

I have some friends that could have gone to better schools but went to mine because although the sticker price might be the same, my school offered them money. I don't know of anyone transferring after their second year, but many of my classmates plan on switching to other schools at the end of the year. Some really want another school and some are hoping to do well and then threaten to leave so the school will give them some money.