[voodoo]

(what should perhaps have been on the event invitation)

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

(though considering how incredibly lukewarm the reception has been so far of Lion and the "enhancements" it brings, I think me and Kerrigan are only the tip of the iceberg)

Originally Posted by Big Mac

More substantive features apparently won't be going into Lion. It may well be the case that we won't ever see a replacement for HFS+. We probably won't see a Finder that is truly fixed for the FTFF zealots. In the future we may just see easy interface additions, further iOSification and other fluff.

I reserve my judgment for the actual, released operating system because there may be some great new "under the hood" advancements that would have been meaningless to discuss at today's media event.

The "Springboard" application launching interface is not new, though. Anyone else reminded of the Launcher control panel from the Performa System 7.1 or from System 7.5? It's basically a windowless, buttonless Launcher.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Brien 

I dunno, but here's the list of guidelines/requirements for Mac applications on the App Store:

The question is, will we get to a point to where non App Store third party software is prohibited?

What's the story with promoting "full window apps" as a feature? Are we talking about OS X here or Windows? I know it's based on iApps being full-screen, but what good is that on a 30" desktop?

And is Apple going to differentiate between full regular OS X applications and small iApp apps on this store, or are they all going to be mixed together? I guess it's the latter.

Originally Posted by Person Man 

I reserve my judgment for the actual, released operating system because there may be some great new "under the hood" advancements that would have been meaningless to discuss at today's media event.

Very doubtful, IMO. We've been conditioned over a number of major releases not to hold out hope for much more than what's shown in the previews.

The "Springboard" application launching interface is not new, though. Anyone else reminded of the Launcher control panel from the Performa System 7.1 or from System 7.5? It's basically a windowless, buttonless Launcher.

Yeah, in that usage it's basically a rehash of the one click launcher style of At Ease/7.5.

[Brien]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

The question is, will we get to a point to where non App Store third party software is prohibited?

I certainly hope not. Those guidelines make a LOT of useful apps I use - Notify, Dropbox, Snapz Pro, Growl, etc. - pretty much anything that alters or adds functionality - unfit for the App Store. Not to mention theming applications, APE, etcetera. It really limits developers to simpler, casual apps (like the iDevices).

What's a bit more strange is that Microsoft had already mentioned a forthcoming "Application Marketplace" for Windows 8, so if Apple does decide to go that route, they may not be alone in that choice.

What's the story with promoting "full window apps" as a feature. Are we talking about OS X here or Windows? I know it's based on iApps being full-screen, but what good is that on a 30" desktop?

And is Apple going to differentiate between full regular OS X applications and small iApp apps on this store, or are they all going to be mixed together? I guess it's the latter.

I don't know. I'd be more concerned about a race to the bottom with pricing, or a sudden surge in one-shot, cheaply made crap like on the iOS App Store.

The full window apps thing just seems like insurance against a touch-screen Mac. Did you see iPhoto's interface?

Yeah, in that usage it's basically a rehash of the one click launcher style of At Ease/7.5.

I was going to mention At Ease. That brings back memories, as they had the computers at my school back then "locked down" with At Ease.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

What's the story with promoting "full window apps" as a feature? Are we talking about OS X here or Windows?

Uh, we're talking about OS X. You may have noticed from the iPhoto demo that anything in the app can be viewed from full screen if you wish. That's what it means.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

(what should perhaps have been on the event invitation)

Can you think of a good reason why Apple wouldn't bring features from their best selling product lines (ever) into a desktop OS?

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Very doubtful, IMO. We've been conditioned over a number of major releases not to hold out hope for much more than what's shown in the previews.

I don't know about that. That's true certainly from a user facing standpoint, but from a developer standpoint there have been several major under-the-hood advancements, like Grand Central Dispatch for efficient use of multicore processors and OpenCL.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

The question is, will we get to a point to where non App Store third party software is prohibited?

What's the story with promoting "full window apps" as a feature? Are we talking about OS X here or Windows? I know it's based on iApps being full-screen, but what good is that on a 30" desktop?.

Those two things are exactly what I've been wondering as well. I have no doubt that any OS developing company, including Apple, would like to own the marketplace by which apps for their OS are sold.

and, I've always been told that one of the usability features of MacOS is it's windowed nature. Now we'll be hearing about how Apple invented full window apps.

[Brien]

Originally Posted by Person Man 

I don't know about that. That's true certainly from a user facing standpoint, but from a developer standpoint there have been several major under-the-hood advancements, like Grand Central Dispatch for efficient use of multicore processors and OpenCL.

Well, again, I have to point out that 10.7's release and WWDC are a bit too close, so we'll likely hear more info in spring 2011.

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by Brien 

Well, again, I have to point out that 10.7's release and WWDC are a bit too close, so we'll likely hear more info in spring 2011.

Not necessarily.

"Summer" can mean anything up to September 21. Apple has missed estimates before. 10.5 was originally supposed to come out "in the Summer," but ended up getting pushed to October. There have been several products that were released "in the Summer," with only days before September 21.

Recent WWDCs have been in August, but Apple has been known to move the dates around before. We may get another media event in the Spring, but we may still see WWDC be moved up as well.

Anything can happen.

[Brien]

Well, if last year wasn't a fluke, WWDC may become an iOS focused event, or they may split it into two conferences and push the OS X up a few months. Totally baseless guesses, of course, but possible.

And yes, Apple doesn't always stick to deadlines, but an August/September release seems likely.

[lpkmckenna]

Some comments:

FaceTime isn't a part of iChat because Apple will also create a Windows version. Apple isn't gonna port iChat to Windows just to provide FaceTime.

The app installation and auto-update of the Mac App Store will be a godsend. Really, I've been waiting for this forever. Nice we get this on Snow Leopard.

But: did you see the quirky toolbar on the App Store? No vertical stoplight like iTunes, but a part of the actual toolbar! Bizarre.

The new 11" Air is just sexy. And putting the chips on the mainboard instead of a complete drive is just brilliant.

Releasing in the summer means a developer beta before WWDC. That tells me very little under-the-hood changes. Snow Leopard was all guts, Lion is all UI.

iLife update is now cheaper, back to $49 from $79. Either they were selling fewer updates lately, or this update is much less comprehensive. Watching the video stream, that seems to be the case.

Mission Control is a solution to a problem I've had for a while. But can you chose individual Safari tabs from it?

Did anyone else notice the guy demoing Lion was having trouble making the gestures?

[Brien]

Well, if the App Store does auto-updating, etc., what happens to Software Update? Would that get rolled into the App Store?

[imitchellg5]

Software Update still does its job of updating OS X and whatnot.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

The new 11" Air is just sexy. And putting the chips on the mainboard instead of a complete drive is just brilliant.

Yep. No aftermarket storage upgrades, meaning your laptop will now obsolete even *faster*!

[Spheric Harlot]

It's a separate little board.

[Big Mac]

The SSD is soldered on the mainboard of the new MBAs? Wowzers, yet another strike against them.

[lpkmckenna]

If the goal is to create an ultraportable, yes, soldering the chips is the best choice. Watch the video: they really do save A LOT of room this way.

[Phileas]

The MB Air is the perfect computer for people like my business partner - she's the business brain behind the company and computer wise doesn't need the horsepower of a MBP. She'll be getting the 13" model next time she upgrades. I am thinking about getting the smaller brother for my wife to use at home. Perfect for email, web browsing, social applications.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

The SSD is soldered on the mainboard of the new MBAs? Wowzers, yet another strike against them.

NO: It's on a daughterboard.



At upper left.

[Phileas]

Very few people who buy a Macbook Air will ever even think about upgrading the drive capacity. It's not that kind of laptop, however hard that will be to understand for the geeks.

[Lateralus]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Software Update still does its job of updating OS X and whatnot.

How do you know that?

[Maflynn]

Originally Posted by Brien 

Well, we could all go back to buying software on floppies.

... it really is amazing how much things have changed since the 90's and System 7.

Of course but, I'm not sure the app store direction apple is heading in, is one that I'd agree with as a consumer.

All I see is apple trying to get a piece of the application sales pie, and the only real way to make the mac app store sustainable and viable is not to give the developer any other alternatives. Sure the Mac app store will have its share of crap apps that people wouldn't publish anyways, like the ubiquitous iFart apps on the iPhone,

[Spheric Harlot]

As explained a dozen times, the App Store model is a LOT better deal for developers than it is for Apple.

[Phileas]

Originally Posted by Maflynn;

All I see is apple trying to get a piece of the application sales pie, and the only real way to make the mac app store sustainable and viable is not to give the developer any other alternatives.

The reason the app store for iOS works so well is precisely because it is a great deal for developers. Especially smaller developers tend to be terrible at marketing and distribution, this is all taken care of by Apple now. Bandwidth costs, merchant accounts, accounting, sales tracking, update distribution, you name it.

For developers this means one thing, extra income. And that leads to more developers joining the band which in return grows the ecosystem. Win all around.

I think this is a really exciting development, for as long as the garden door doesn't slam shut. And I cant see that happen anytime soon.

[Maflynn]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

As explained a dozen times, the App Store model is a LOT better deal for developers than it is for Apple.

Originally Posted by Phileas 

The reason the app store for iOS works so well is precisely because it is a great deal for developers. Especially smaller developers tend to be terrible at marketing and distribution, this is all taken care of by Apple now. Bandwidth costs, merchant accounts, accounting, sales tracking, update distribution, you name it.

Yes, but you also need to take into consideration that for the iPhone/iPad/iPod touch its the only way to get apps (w/o jail breaking). Developers saw the potential and headed over there and put up with apple's approval process because they saw there were profits to be made.

Conversely we're dealing with a mature platform that already has many applications, and while the app store for the Mac will certainly help the little guy to publish his app, it does little for the established players, and I don't mean just adobe, MS, etc but also like the folks over at panic.

I've been wrong before but my concern is that apple is building a walled garden for the mac, 10.7 is laying the foundation and subsequent versions will close it off.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Phileas 

Very few people who buy a Macbook Air will ever even think about upgrading the drive capacity. It's not that kind of laptop ...

Not at purchase they won't, and that's the problem. Next year, when everyone else has 1TB SSDs in their netbooks, the poor early-adopting MBA owner might want more capacity as well.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

As explained a dozen times, the App Store model is a LOT better deal for developers than it is for Apple.

Agreed, until Apple has 100% control over what get's installed in the OS, then it becomes a much better deal for Apple than for developers.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Can you think of a good reason why Apple wouldn't bring features from their best selling product lines (ever) into a desktop OS?

Duh yeah, it's from a mobile OS. Wouldn't it be cool to have features from their popular desktop OS in the iPhone?

No of course not, that would be ... unwise.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

Some comments:

FaceTime isn't a part of iChat because Apple will also create a Windows version. Apple isn't gonna port iChat to Windows just to provide FaceTime. That's pretty convoluted reasoning.

The app installation and auto-update of the Mac App Store will be a godsend. Really, I've been waiting for this forever. Nice we get this on Snow Leopard.Most apps for the Mac already have auto-updating as a feature and to install them, is just to move them in a folder from the disk image and sometimes not even that.

But: did you see the quirky toolbar on the App Store? No vertical stoplight like iTunes, but a part of the actual toolbar! Bizarre.Yes, it seems to be yet another "why not" UI change.

The new 11" Air is just sexy. And putting the chips on the mainboard instead of a complete drive is just brilliant.Great, because it better be 'sexy' or in some way stimulating for you because as a computer you're not getting much value for your money.

Releasing in the summer means a developer beta before WWDC. That tells me very little under-the-hood changes. Snow Leopard was all guts, Lion is all UI.Well the WWDC last time was all about iOS so it would make sense that there won't be much about Lion there except to show the iOS-looking crap on it. iOS is perhaps the lousiest desktop UI yet.

iLife update is now cheaper, back to $49 from $79. Either they were selling fewer updates lately, or this update is much less comprehensive. Watching the video stream, that seems to be the case.Eh yeah Apple seems to have lost interest completely in Mac software, so this iLife "upgrade" is little more than an expansion of some holliday and vacation templates.

Mission Control is a solution to a problem I've had for a while. But can you chose individual Safari tabs from it?Good, it sure isn't a solution to any problem I've encountered, so I'm sort of relieved that it benefits some.

Did anyone else notice the guy demoing Lion was having trouble making the gestures?Yeah, but if you've ever used gestures, well then this is quite normal. They're very unreliable.

Every single "upgrade" or "new feature" seemed forced. Even mission control. Those who are hoping for something 'insanely great' from Lion when it is released - don't hold your breath. Steve also promised more and greater features on Snow Leopard (that he just couldn't talk about at that particular moment) and then it turned out there wasn't anything.

Apple is no longer 'insanely great' - just consumer-oriented and bloated. Booooring.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

As explained a dozen times, the App Store model is a LOT better deal for developers than it is for Apple.

Explain it again, and maybe it will become the truth!! (or most likely not and you'll just continue the Stockholm-syndrom like apologism tour)

[Phileas]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Explain it again, and maybe it will become the truth!! (or most likely not and you'll just continue the Stockholm-syndrom like apologism tour)

Spheric is 100% correct on this one. Arguing against it would be like arguing white is black.

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Apple is no longer 'insanely great' - just consumer-oriented and bloated. Booooring.

Oh dear. A company that dares to be consumer orientated? Whatever next? Decent resell values? High user satisfaction? The sky will fall in...

[Maflynn]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Every single "upgrade" or "new feature" seemed forced. Even mission control. Those who are hoping for something 'insanely great' from Lion when it is released - don't hold your breath. Steve also promised more and greater features on Snow Leopard (that he just couldn't talk about at that particular moment) and then it turned out there wasn't anything.

Agreed, there's no killer features. 10.5 had 300 new features and while I was not expecting that level of change, I was hoping for more then auto saving of my apps, mission control, and launch pad. You cannot even consider the app store part of the OS, especially since its going to be available for 10.6

Apple is no longer 'insanely great' - just consumer-oriented and bloated. Booooring.

Its not because they're now being consumer oriented but perhaps its playing it safe. Apple was not playing it safe with the iPod, iPhone, and even the iPad. They took risks and were rewarded greatly.

Now with the mac platform is mature, the potential for growth is limited as compared to the iPhone. They took the safe road and grabbed some features off the iPad and put it on the OSX.

The problem is that win7 has caught up with OSX in terms of stability, usability and exceeds OSX with software and customization. Apple cannot stay on top by playing it safe.

[MacinTommy]

THIS NEEDS TO BE IN BOLD BECAUSE IT'S STRANGE! My FaceTime app keeps moving itself! I drag it to where I want it on my dock and then it just goes right back to where it was before a few seconds later.

[Phileas]

Originally Posted by Maflynn 

The problem is that win7 has caught up with OSX in terms of stability, usability and exceeds OSX with software and customization. Apple cannot stay on top by playing it safe.

I think what Apple has realized that for a large number of users, large enough to build a business case, really do not care all that much about customization. What they want is a platform that works with as little trouble as possible, that looks great and that allows them to create great stuff easily.

They're not in the business of building the best looking OS, they're in the business of making the OS disappear as much as possible, as they've started doing with iOS.

Apple seems to have little interest in the geek market, the hacker market and the modding market. Leave that to Linux or Windows.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Explain it again, and maybe it will become the truth!! (or most likely not and you'll just continue the Stockholm-syndrom like apologism tour)

Tone it down, Big Boy.

Making everything personal the way you have been is way over the line of "friendly ribbing" into bullying. I've tried reasoning with you before and explaining my position, but you apparently feel the need to continue baiting and trying to push buttons.

Just calling anybody who sees some business sense in things you disagree with an "apologist" or a lemming is bullying and lends neither weight to your argument, nor credibility to your character.

I'm going to stop bothering with your bullshit and just report every attack. Shame, because your arguments aren't half as bad as your style.

[Maflynn]

Originally Posted by Phileas 

They're not in the business of building the best looking OS, they're in the business of making the OS disappear as much as possible, as they've started doing with iOS.

Agreed but they were at one point interested in making the most solid best looking OS, this philosophy has changed to what you posted.

Apple seems to have little interest in the geek market, the hacker market and the modding market. Leave that to Linux or Windows.

Agreed, I think apple has decided not to cater to us, and most of the geeky types are running on linux and windows to satisfy their hacking/modding/customization

[ort888]

Having now actually watched the Lion stuff I think that A.) Nothing that was shown was interesting to me at all and B.) I am not worried about it taking over OS X or anything like that. It all looked very complimentary to the systems that are already in place.

I can't see full screen apps being a big deal, because full screen apps on big monitors are dumb. Also I don't get what the big deal with the app launcher is. Who the hell is going to want to use that thing? Why would you want to use that thing?

[Maflynn]

Originally Posted by ort888 

. Also I don't get what the big deal with the app launcher is. Who the hell is going to want to use that thing? Why would you want to use that thing?

One of the things I love about OSX that windows has failed misrably is the how applications are handled. I have an application folder that I can organize if I wish but my apps are easily accessed and managed.

On windows, I have a huge ungainly start menu that really becomes unwieldy once you start installing more apps. The other option is to put short cuts on your desktop or taskbar, kludgey fixes at best.

So why would I want to use something else when apple's original solution is elegant and easy

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Maflynn 

On windows, I have a huge ungainly start menu that really becomes unwieldy once you start installing more apps. The other option is to put short cuts on your desktop or taskbar, kludgey fixes at best.

The Windows 7 taskbar is a direct ripoff of the Dock...how is it kludgey?

Do you actually launch an app by opening the Applications folder?

[Brien]

Originally Posted by Phileas 

Apple seems to have little interest in the geek market, the hacker market and the modding market. Leave that to Linux or Windows.

Sadly, that has been the case for some years, at least since the success of the iPhone. It's a very stark contrast to the days of ResExcellence and modding/theming/hacking the OS.

I had a rep tell us once that they weren't interested in helping the university with their plans for the new art wing because 'art was a niche market, and we're only interesting in what grandmas want'. That philosophy is very apparent - and working, as my 76 year old grandmother is getting an iPad.

[Brien]

Originally Posted by ort888 

Having now actually watched the Lion stuff I think that A.) Nothing that was shown was interesting to me at all and B.) I am not worried about it taking over OS X or anything like that. It all looked very complimentary to the systems that are already in place.

I can't see full screen apps being a big deal, because full screen apps on big monitors are dumb. Also I don't get what the big deal with the app launcher is. Who the hell is going to want to use that thing? Why would you want to use that thing?

I think LaunchPad serves one, and only one, purpose: training wheels for iPhone/iPad users who decided to switch to the Mac.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Duh yeah, it's from a mobile OS. Wouldn't it be cool to have features from their popular desktop OS in the iPhone?

No of course not, that would be ... unwise.

They have plenty of features from the desktop OS on iOS. Spotlight, Safari, etc.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

The Windows 7 taskbar is a direct ripoff of the Dock...how is it kludgey?

Paradigms lost: The Windows 7 Taskbar versus the OS X Dock

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Phileas 

Spheric is 100% correct on this one. Arguing against it would be like arguing white is black.

I'm sure he agrees with you too! Though he has a terrible track record at predicting the future (since he just apes whatever Steve thinks is cool at any given moment)

Once he said that MMS was a dead tech thus it wouldn't ever be implemented into the iPhone. Just email things, that's the future!

Wow was he wrong!

Originally Posted by Phileas 

Oh dear. A company that dares to be consumer orientated? Whatever next? Decent resell values? High user satisfaction? The sky will fall in...

Pandering to the lowest common denominator isn't being consumer oriented, just lazy. Dell fits that description very well also, but they're not pretending to be anything but Dell.

As I mentioned before, once a Sony product was something good. Those were the days.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Maflynn 

Agreed, there's no killer features. 10.5 had 300 new features and while I was not expecting that level of change, I was hoping for more then auto saving of my apps, mission control, and launch pad. You cannot even consider the app store part of the OS, especially since its going to be available for 10.6


Its not because they're now being consumer oriented but perhaps its playing it safe. Apple was not playing it safe with the iPod, iPhone, and even the iPad. They took risks and were rewarded greatly.

Now with the mac platform is mature, the potential for growth is limited as compared to the iPhone. They took the safe road and grabbed some features off the iPad and put it on the OSX.

The problem is that win7 has caught up with OSX in terms of stability, usability and exceeds OSX with software and customization. Apple cannot stay on top by playing it safe.

Couldn't agree more!

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Tone it down, Big Boy.

Making everything personal the way you have been is way over the line of "friendly ribbing" into bullying. I've tried reasoning with you before and explaining my position, but you apparently feel the need to continue baiting and trying to push buttons.

Just calling anybody who sees some business sense in things you disagree with an "apologist" or a lemming is bullying and lends neither weight to your argument, nor credibility to your character.

I'm going to stop bothering with your bullshit and just report every attack. Shame, because your arguments aren't half as bad as your style.

Despite what you might expect, I'm taking that as a big complement! Thanks Spheric!!

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

They have plenty of features from the desktop OS on iOS. Spotlight, Safari, etc.

Spotlight works very different from Mac OS in iOS. Imagine if they'd bring Spotlight *as it is* from iOS to Mac OS. Not a good idea.

Safari is an app, but it is also wildly different from it's Mac OS counterpart.

The point is, that the iOS features that Steve seems so proud of bringing to the Mac OS, are really very similar to what is offered on iOS, it isn't expanded upon or the strengths of the Mac OS used, or that a Mac has a mouse/keyboard and big monitor.

E.g. the launcher thingy, where you still make a 'folder' of apps exactly the same way as on iOS, where the app icons becom tiny and illegible - not really necessary on a HD monitor. But there you go. It's like we don't have immense screen real estate or something.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Despite what you might expect, I'm taking that as a big complement! Thanks Spheric!!

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Brien 

Sadly, that has been the case for some years, at least since the success of the iPhone. It's a very stark contrast to the days of ResExcellence and modding/theming/hacking the OS.

People keep forgetting that what they're doing now is EXACTLY what they set out to do in 1984.

Their slogan in 1984 was "The Computer for the Rest of Us."

http://pulsar.esm.psu.edu/Faculty/Gr...ommercial1.mov
http://pulsar.esm.psu.edu/Faculty/Gr...ommercial2.mov
http://pulsar.esm.psu.edu/Faculty/Gr...ommercial3.mov
http://pulsar.esm.psu.edu/Faculty/Gr...ommercial4.mov
http://pulsar.esm.psu.edu/Faculty/Gr...ommercial5.mov

They did cater to geeks some, but it was not their focus.
http://oldcomputers.net/oldads/80s/macintosh-1.jpg