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krove · Jan 4, 2003, 12:43 AM

Originally posted by OpenStep:
I'll clarify that I have no problems paying for update iApps software, just like I paid for a new QT pro serial, Jaguar, and .mac. I just feel it unacceptable for Apple to make so many things free at one point (aka included with an operating system) and then later down the road get hit with all these charges left and right. As its going I wouldn't doubt people have to start paying to use Sherlock in the future (maybe someday tied in with .mac?). The whole idea of getting a Mac are the bonuses that come with it that make it stand out from a Windows PC. iTools (while it lasted) was great, free email for anyone that bought a Mac... now look at it, while setting up Win XP you have the option to create a free @msn.com email addy... iMovie started out bundled with an operating system, now possibly costing money on the Mac while it remains free on the other side of the fence. I personally although I will give in and buy newer versions of iDVD and iMovie, they should be free updates after paying such a preimum for Jaguar.

It all comes down to the question: do you feel that the new features are worth extra money. Apple has development costs to cover, so they charge a simple upgrade fee for three apps (iDVD, iMovie, and iPhoto). The first two have already had precedents with paid-upgrades, and iPhoto is still v1.0.

Don't want to pay for new features? Stick with your current versions, or buy a new computer or wait until 10.3 is released. All of the iSoftware has by default come installed (latest versions) on new computers and been installed with 10.2. Apple wants its users to pay for the development of COMMERCIAL software (is that so strange?), so you can pay now, or wait until a new computer or OS upgrade comes along to get new features. Either way - you have to pay.

Oddly enough, you paid in some form for the so-called "free" iSoftware you use now. iMovie 2, for example, could only be acquired by 1. purchasing the upgrade CD, 2. buying a new computer, or 3. upgrading to OS X 10.3. Same goes for iDVD 2.

Certainly it appears rather dubious to give iApps away for free then charge for them. What you fail to realize however, is that you still have the option of FREE software, which is every iApp in its current version.

DON'T PAY FOR STUFF YOU DON'T WANT. People are rather illogical in their thinking. In economics, I learned that people will often purchase something (such as .Mac) then complain about the price. This is illogical because the people were obviously compelled enough to believe that the .Mac service was worth the money OR THEY WOULD NOT HAVE BOUGHT IT! Actions speak louder than words.

Ok, my say in this thread is finished. I grow weary of the free, something-for-nothing crowd, because, as I stated, you don't ever get something for nothing (not even your so-called free iApps that you all current use and love.

ARENA · Jan 4, 2003, 12:44 AM

Originally posted by swiz:
iPhoto needs a LOT of work before it will be worth more than $15, iTunes is pretty damn stout although I dont think I'd pay for it until it stops using it sown GUI resource files, iCal is bettter, iSync is cool. All worth a little change to some but not to all.

I do find issue with them making all of these apps available for so long for free and now charging for them but I'd never switch over it. I don't know if I'd everr switch over anything.

Well, maybe that's the point. If the new versions of iMovie and iPhoto comes with new great features and improved performace, i'd say it's fairly reasonable to pay a 50 bucks upgrade fee for them. If people don't agree with this, they can remain using the current free versions.

I agree with "Solo" on this, Apple is not charity, and having to pay 50 dollars to upgrade two great apps that are used on a regular basis, it's not something to whine about.

Scoo · Jan 4, 2003, 01:15 AM

*snip*

Anyway, what can I say? I am allowed about $40 a month in electronic stuff. that translates into printer supplies, replacement parts, and every now and then a program.

Note: This covers *EVERYTHING* under my 6 computer/tv/highly electronic world.

We don't all have bottomless wallets, however I'm not sure about the rest of the madly rich, insanely greedy republicans on macnn.

*shrug*

What I find funny is the rich people always turn out to be the penny pinchers in the end and the ones who suck up are the ones who get screwed.

So let's get to the point. I use iphoto on a daily basis for my digital cam which I was saving up for 5 months to get.... and it's a LOW END CAM.

Yeah, ididn't take all my money and save it for 5 months :rolls eyes: but meh.

Then there's itunes, I use that a *LOT* more than I think of it. I have to pay to get a rendezvous version that was promised long ago? I hope not.

Are they going to charge for mail, and everything else too soon?

Funny, when I think about it, when I bought this mac I didn't get ANYTHING in the first place.

And I dunno about you guys but my getting 10.2 was as lucky as my computer's hard drive being replaced with one that happened to have 10.2 on it. Then my software disks were replaced.

I dunno, money seems to be impossible to save. On the PC side $40 a month was enough to get me a game every month or two, now I find myself having to *gasp* grab things in ways I myself don't like to do, because I CANNOT AFFORD the apps.

What else can I do? Start selling my equipment. If I sold my monitor (which my mom would nearly kill me for because that money came out of a savings I shouldn't have touched until I was ready to go to college anyway, and etc etc etc etc.

I bought a mac to get better hardware, support, and software. So far the only thing that's met the bill is *NOTHING*.

I still have to pay to get the OS even though it was given to me by apple, I still have to pay for things that should have come with the computer in the first place (idvd2), and still need about 2k in apps to get to the state that I was before I switched to PC.

AND PEOPLE CALL ME RICH. Geez.

Right now I feel poore than everyone else because I can't afford these darn upgrades that everyone acts like is nothing.

*shrug*

Next time you think about a $50 upgrade think about who's going to have to shell out for it.

:o

[/B]

WTF dude, get a job. Or a second job. You have a refrigerator, which 75% of people in the world don't have; you have 6(!) computers; you evidently have a parent giving you $40 a month to spend on gadgets. A family in Afghanistan has US$800 per capita a year FOR EVERYTHING.

As an American, you enjoy incredible wealth compared to the vast majority of humans. Instead of complaining, you should be thanking your lucky stars you and your nice family aren't ekeing out a living in some war-torn Third-World hellhole.

brainchild2b · Jan 4, 2003, 01:16 AM

As someone who considers themselves "well off" I normally wouldn't have a problem paying.

Right now apple offers us substandard and behind the times hardware, and at an overpriced rate. The only advantage over EVEN owning a Mac anymore is the software. Start charging for the software and you've just destroyed every good reason for me NOT to buy a PC.

If apple gets it's hardware straight and offers me a damn good reason to pay $2000 more than i would for a PC then it's okay for them to charge me for the software. But since they charge more for underpowered hardware right now they have no business doing so.

Just my 2 cents

krove · Jan 4, 2003, 01:21 AM

Originally posted by brainchild2b:
As someone who considers themselves "well off" I normally wouldn't have a problem paying.

Right now apple offers us substandard and behind the times hardware, and at an overpriced rate. The only advantage over EVEN owning a Mac anymore is the software. Start charging for the software and you've just destroyed every good reason for me NOT to buy a PC.

If apple gets it's hardware straight and offers me a damn good reason to pay $2000 more than i would for a PC then it's okay for them to charge me for the software. But since they charge more for underpowered hardware right now they have no business doing so.

Just my 2 cents

If you bought so-called under-powered hardware then you aren't thinking. You would not have bought it if the price was not worth it. Simple economics - people don't buy things that don't bring a certain level of utility. Items that are priced too high and offer too-little utility obviously will not be purchased.

In your case, however, the level of utility brought to you obviously met the price or you would not have made the purchase. Once again, actions speak louder than words (the purchase vs your complaining).

JB72 · Jan 4, 2003, 01:24 AM

As an American, you enjoy incredible wealth compared to the vast majority of humans. Instead of complaining, you should be thanking your lucky stars you and your nice family aren't ekeing out a living in some war-torn Third-World hellhole.

I wonder if Jobs will justify the iApps new cost with that very line of thinking.

Jobs: " ...and you guys better not complain about $49 for these applications now. [insert above quote]."

Subzero Diesel949 · Jan 4, 2003, 01:24 AM

Originally posted by brainchild2b:
As someone who considers themselves "well off" I normally wouldn't have a problem paying.

Right now apple offers us substandard and behind the times hardware, and at an overpriced rate. The only advantage over EVEN owning a Mac anymore is the software. Start charging for the software and you've just destroyed every good reason for me NOT to buy a PC.

If apple gets it's hardware straight and offers me a damn good reason to pay $2000 more than i would for a PC then it's okay for them to charge me for the software. But since they charge more for underpowered hardware right now they have no business doing so.

Just my 2 cents

My sentiments exactly.

I can see it now from the WinTel camp: "...but with WinXP you get MovieMaker and Media Player for FREE!"

Zimphire · Jan 4, 2003, 01:36 AM

Yeah if Apple does this, I can see new users coming in HORDES!

People will either be a chump and pay up, or get it illegally.

Scoo · Jan 4, 2003, 01:39 AM

Originally posted by JB72:
I wonder if Jobs will justify the iApps new cost with that very line of thinking.

Jobs: " ...and you guys better not complain about $49 for these applications now. [insert above quote]."

LOL, that would make for a classic Jobs tirade!

nforcer · Jan 4, 2003, 01:44 AM

As long as Apple keeps bundling the iApps with the OS, I don't really care. I'll wait for 10.3 and get everything as usual (although all I really care about is iTunes and iMovie). Then again, if the price of the OS is going to be increased to accomidate the new iApps bundle... hmm....

Technicolor · Jan 4, 2003, 01:50 AM

I was under the impression that's why we were all paying a premium for our machines (the iApps and the killer OS). I don't really see how they can justify charging for updates to those apps. Where's the incentive to buy an Apple if they do this? Sounds lame, I'm hoping it's just a rumor.

Eug · 02:00 AM

Originally posted by Eug:
iMovie 2.1.1 update already costs $49 today, and iDVD 2.1 update already costs $19.95.

BTW, my TiBook has iMovie 2.1.2.

Originally posted by Socially Awkward Solo:
How much more faster is it though. Arn't the cards slow to begin with?

Canon G2 with Ridata 256 MB CF card. 243.9 MB, 127 pictures ranging in size from 92 KB to 2.8 MB.

USB (camera cable): 481 s = 0.51 MB/s
PCMCIA (CF adapter): 152 s = 1.6 MB/s
Firewire (media reader): 107 s = 2.3 MB/s

ie. 8 minutes with USB vs. 1 minute & 47 seconds with Firewire. Firewire is 4.5 times as fast on my setup.

I do buy higher end CF cards though, which are faster than the cheap ones.

The other thing is that with the camera I have to deal with Image Capture. With Firewire or PCMCIA I just get a drive popping up on my OS X desktop. Ie. No download software - just the Finder.

The other minor consideration is that with Image Capture I lose all the .THM thumbnail files that are created by the camera for .RAW uncompressed image files. These thumbnail files are used in Canon's File Viewer Utility to speed up viewing.

mishap · Jan 4, 2003, 02:07 AM

could you imagine Apple charging for iTunes? What features could they possibly put in to make it better than the free version?

I will pay for iTunes as it is...i will not pay for iMovie or iDVD. iPhoto better be real ****ing nice for me to pay for that.

LeeG · Jan 4, 2003, 02:25 AM

Title should have read:

"Apple to announce it plans to continue iApp upgrade pricing in next revisions, and offer lower-priced bundled 'discount 3-iApp package'"

Why did this thread start?

This is NO change, they already charge for these progs!! If there is another upgrade fee to the next version, its NO CHANGE from the present pricing. If you thought iDVD2 was worth the $$, you ponied up the cash, if you think iPhoto2 is worth paying for, you will.

Caveat: They MUST continue to bundle the newest versions of the iApps with each new hardware purchase - thus adding value to the mac purchase, and a HUGE PLUS (and a great 'one more reason' ) would be to bundle the upgrades to .mac users -- and for all I care, they can tie the upgrades into your .mac if thats how you got em so you can't copy it for all your friends...

$50 for the upgrade to iPhoto, iMovie, and iDVD is a DISCOUNT from the present pricing, no bait and switch, and no reason to start using XP (though if this is your reason for switching platforms you might as well since you have no understanding of the actual benefits of the MacOS).

I would be psyched if there were SIGNIFICANT new features and functionality added to these apps (esp CHAPTER SUPPORT in iDVD), and my credit card will be ready...

Lee
Happy to buy new apple products when they rock.

passmaster16 · Jan 4, 2003, 03:51 AM

Originally posted by brainchild2b:
As someone who considers themselves "well off" I normally wouldn't have a problem paying.

Right now apple offers us substandard and behind the times hardware, and at an overpriced rate. The only advantage over EVEN owning a Mac anymore is the software. Start charging for the software and you've just destroyed every good reason for me NOT to buy a PC.

If apple gets it's hardware straight and offers me a damn good reason to pay $2000 more than i would for a PC then it's okay for them to charge me for the software. But since they charge more for underpowered hardware right now they have no business doing so.

Just my 2 cents

I think this is a reasonable argument. While Apple may be a "hardware" company, the reason why many people buy their products is for the Mac OS and it's associated apps. I know I didn't personally own a Mac until 10.1 and the OS was the only reason why I purchased a mac. I certaintly didn't buy it because the hardware was faster. I'm not really going to get concerned until I see how this all pans out. I just can't see them charging for many of these apps. As others have stated MS makes various apps available for their OSes. I know MS has a lot more cash than Apple, but the one thing that Apple has had over MS is that their apps were generally better than MS. Really the MS apps aren't that great, but they are not charging for them either. I will say this though. If the new iApps had enough features and more importantly substantial optimization, I would *consider* paying $50 for three apps.

Don Pickett · Jan 4, 2003, 04:27 AM

Originally posted by ::maroma:::
Your point doesn't make you any smarter. The opposite, in fact.

It's great that you justify your illegal actions with your moral high ground. Tell your story of how Apple is ripping your off so much you have to resort to theft to the judge. I'm sure s/he'll understand.

Of course. And I'm sure that every piece of software you own is either registered or purchased, because, as you know, I am the only person who ever stole software.

You're worse than ex-hippies lecturing their kids about drug use.

DaedalusDX · Jan 4, 2003, 05:08 AM

Originally posted by Subzero Diesel949:
My sentiments exactly.

I can see it now from the WinTel camp: "...but with WinXP you get MovieMaker and Media Player for FREE!"

Sigh... but all of this DOESN'T change the fact that if a PC user switches, they'll get these new versions of iMovie and iDVD free because they'll be buying new machines...

And for the record, Microsoft nickels and dimes many times worse than Apple. DVD player is NOT built into the OS ( for some reason, PC users don't complain about this like Mac users do... they probably all pirate their dvd player software anyway.) You have to pay MS for that.

All macs will still have a version of iMovie on them after January 7th... its not like your version of iMovie 2 on your hard drive is going to self destruct forcing you to buy it... geez... you all make it sound like Apple is attacking you by putting upgrade pricing on a product that THEY WROTE.

DaedalusDX · Jan 4, 2003, 05:18 AM

Originally posted by swiz:
iPhoto needs a LOT of work before it will be worth more than $15, iTunes is pretty damn stout although I dont think I'd pay for it until it stops using it sown GUI resource files, iCal is bettter, iSync is cool. All worth a little change to some but not to all.

I do find issue with them making all of these apps available for so long for free and now charging for them but I'd never switch over it. I don't know if I'd everr switch over anything.

I have exactly the same sentiments, thank you swiz.

Nothing Apple can do will make me switch... short of sending stormtroopers to my house to smash my machine and beat me up...

People who say they will switch or actually switch to PC soley because of Apple's decisions like this really have to lighten up... They get too caught up in the whole thing, put their hopes in the wrong places, and get too disappointed when they find out that Apple isn't all about free love...

Personally i like the way my machine works, it improves the way i deal with my gadgets, and i'm convinced that no windows machine could do it the same way, and that's the end of that. As for upgrades and giving apple money, I'll pay when i think they have something worth my cash... just like from any other business. I don't expect freebies, but i appreciate it when i get one.

TheIceMan · Jan 4, 2003, 05:22 AM

Originally posted by JB72:
Jobs: " ...and you guys better not complain about $49 for these applications now. 'As an American, you enjoy incredible wealth compared to the vast majority of humans. Instead of complaining, you should be thanking your lucky stars you and your nice family aren't ekeing out a living in some war-torn Third-World hellhole.'"

LOL. That might be something Jobs WOULD say. Man, I say shorten it and put it on a T-shirt. the money we'll make from the T-shirts would go to pay for the iApps! Then Jobs would be happy, we would be happy. Of course the folks paying for the T-shirts won't be.

Wow. It took a LONG time reading ALL those posts! My 2 pennies is this: Yes, Apple as a company is for-profit. No, people don't like the bait-and-switch (first free, then charge). It seems though that Apple has a BAD habit of "upgrading often" in order to "charge a nominal fee."

I don't think the people who are upset, are upset at being charged. I think folks are PISSED because of how OFTEN Apple throws out an "upgrade" (which many times is not major) and those already using it either abandon it or forced to pay.

I love my Mac, BUT if we are to compare what's free with Windows and what's free with OSX, I would say that Windows would win. (Now hold on to your keyboards...calm down). The point is this. With Win95, Win98, Win2000, WinME, WinXP M$ supported these OSes for a good period of time. But from OS9 to OSX, Apple will no longer support (I think, except for education) the OS9 platform.

Now that seems to me like Apple "monopolizing" the Mac platform. They were the ones who created it, Apple is the ONLY company to run OSX, so when they say change users either submit or they abandon ship. Sometimes abandoning ship is easier said than done when you have invested so much time and energy into it.

I can see points made by both sides. IMHO, "if" this rumor turns out true, then Apple is going to have many angry users at their doorsteps.

dru · Jan 4, 2003, 05:28 AM

Originally posted by Eug:
I repeat. iMovie 2 already costs $49 and iDVD 2 already costs $20.

Irrelavent.

iMovie 2 and iDVD 2 were included with the $129 Jaguar update, were they not?

Those prices you quote obviously are aimed at users who haven't yet jumped to Jaguar.

iTunes has always been free across major upgrades.

A concern is whether updating to 10.3 will bring with it backward compatibility with iMovie 2, iDVD 2, and other current-grade iApps. The bottom line here isn't whether this is Apple keep the old "upgrade" policy but whether Apple intends to unbundle (certain or all) iApp updates from the next major OS release. Otherwise I'm imagining *most* of us will just save your $50 and put it towards the Snappy� Mac OS X.3.

Apple will not sucker me after the QTPro 6 payout, Jaguar payout, .Mac payout all within months of ordering (and waiting MONTHS) for one of those SuperDrive 15" iMacs only to be smacked by their 17" release.

Maybe Steve hasn't learned all that much from his NeXT experience afterall. There it was a "let's declare war on developers" attitude there; at Apple it seems "let's declare war on customers" is the 'One True Path'.

Parky · Jan 4, 2003, 05:57 AM

CAN YOU PEOPLE READ !!!

WE HAVE ALWAYS PAID FOR MAJOR UPDATES TO iMOVIE and iDVD.

SEEING AS WE HAVE NEVER HAD A MAJOR UPDATE TO iPHOTO, THIS COULD BE THE SAME FOR THAT PRODUCT AS WELL.

NOTHING HAS CHANGED.

READ READ READ READ YOU MORONS !!!

Subzero Diesel949 · Jan 4, 2003, 06:13 AM

Originally posted by dru:
Irrelavent.

iMovie 2 and iDVD 2 were included with the $129 Jaguar update, were they not?

Bzzzt.

iDVD was only included if your machine had a SuperDrive.

Originally posted by Parky:
CAN YOU PEOPLE READ !!!

WE HAVE ALWAYS PAID FOR MAJOR UPDATES TO iMOVIE

iMovie was a part of the Jaguar update. You only paid for the stand-alone.

Time's up, thanks for playing.

Parky · Jan 4, 2003, 06:23 AM

But you PAID for Jaguar !!

Subzero Diesel949 · Jan 4, 2003, 06:27 AM

Exactly my point.

So why do I need to PAY AGAIN for iMovie 3 if v. 2 was already bundled into Jaguar (and it's only been not even 5 months since its release)?

Let's hope 10.3 doesn't fubar iMovie 2.

Parky · Jan 4, 2003, 06:51 AM

You paid to upgrade to version 2 in Jaguar.

The upgrade from iMovie 1 to 2 was a paid upgrade, the move from 2 to 3 will be a paid upgrade.

Just becuase you paid for 10.2, does not mean you get everything free forever more again.

Just because it is five months has nothing to do with it.

Nobody is asking you to pay again !!!
If you are happy with what you have paid for (iMovie 2) then stay with that. You have not paid for iMovie3 so how are you being asked to pay for it again ?

Upgrades need to be paid for when they are released, it's just hard luck if you bought a version a few weeks before.

The same goes for hardware. If you bought an iMac in December 2001, Apple did not give people a new version in January when the new one came out.

The point here is :-

You still have a working version of iMovie that you paid for with Jaguar, they have not taken anything away from you, you still have what you paid for.

Get real, software is not free for ever, you have to pay for upgrades.

MadBrowser · Jan 4, 2003, 06:55 AM

You people make me ****ing sick. Please stop whining. There are more important things in life.

Don't want to pay, don't buy. Don't like the Mac, switch to Windows. Don't like Apple, don't send them money.

Apple is a business. Businesses make money. Steve and the other Apple officers have a fiduciary responsibility to Apple's shareholders to increase the value of the company.

This is not greed. This is called doing their jobs.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and if you don't like the way they are playing the game, please go play somewhere else.

If you honestly can't afford the upgrade price, keep your existing version. It will not time out and force you to enter a credit card number.

Everyone thinks they are entitled to hand outs these days...

Parky · Jan 4, 2003, 07:00 AM

Well said :-) again !!

MickS · Jan 4, 2003, 07:09 AM

The iApps come free on the restore CDs when you buy a new mac. This is a given.

I remember having to upgrade from iMovie 1 to iMovie 2 - it cost. If you have a .Mac account you can download iMovie for OS X for free but iMovie 2 for OS 9 is still listed on the Apple store. The upgrade to iDVD 2.1 is also listed on the store.

Why is this news?

If the updates are worth the cost I'll buy them, especially if iDVD 3 will work with a non-Apple DVD-R drive, if not then I'll wait until I replace one of my machines.

Any costs will not impact new customers, if you buy a new Mac you will get the new software versions.

Subzero Diesel949 · Jan 4, 2003, 07:22 AM

Sorry, we all don't have bottomless wallets.

Apple is really milking it to us these days.

Hardware - whatever price you paid for it
QuickTime 6 Serial - $30 (plus another $30 for QT 5 serial under OS X 1.0)
.Mac - $99/yr to keep existing mac.com account
Jaguar - $129 - to get a working version of OS X that should have been 10.0 from the start

And now $50 for the iApps...mind you iDVD only being useful if you have the SuperDrive

Do the math...and you wonder why so many people are b!tching.

What are you going to say when Apple decides to charge for Sherlock access? Switch to Windows if you don't like it? Don't expect anything for free?

I wouldn't mind paying for using these apps...BUT...

I already paid premium for underpowered hardware so I can have the better operating system (okay, so we all pretty much did that). I would pay $$$ for iTunes if it had something compelling over the current freebie version. In the state iPhoto is in, unless it has substantially improved, it is not worth forking money over for it. iSync is useless unless you have a .Mac account, which is ridiculous because in principle one doesn't need a .Mac server (third party) to negotiate transfer between two machines.

So you say...use the current version you have. I did just that with QuickTime 5 until Jaguar came along and installed 6, which FORCED me to get a new serial. Only later on did Apple decide to put up a way to install 5 on Jag. Let's see how far you can go with iMovie 2 until, say, 10.3 comes along and hobbles it. Maybe Apple WON'T let you revert to v.2.

Yeah, Apple is a business, and they need to make their money, but it's a stupid business move when you look at the long term effects (it's already been mentioned several times).

Appleman · Jan 4, 2003, 07:44 AM

Originally posted by MadBrowser:

Apple is a business. Businesses make money. Steve and the other Apple officers have a fiduciary responsibility to Apple's shareholders to increase the value of the company.

This is not greed. This is called doing their jobs.

Microsoft is a business. Businesses make money. Steve and the other Microsoft officers have a fiduciary responsibility to Microsoft's shareholders to increase the value of the company.

This is not greed. This is called doing their jobs.

So now you want me to like & love M$? Come on!

Sven G · 08:25 AM

... Dunno... Maybe Apple, Microsoft & Co. also should have some form of "responsibility" towards their user base, after all: maybe rather elementary things - like not gouging us (iTools ---> .Mac, etc.), and so on...

kovacs · Jan 4, 2003, 08:22 AM

The fact that iMovie and especially iDvd won't be free updates is normal because iDvd is over a GB large, no way you can download that from the Apple website for free, and maybe you just get the latest version of iPhoto for free on the CD. I don't think they will ever charge for all the iApps, who will pay for iSync or iChat ?? I just can't believe that but iMovie 3 and iDVD are too big to download for free from the Apple website...

we will just have to wait and see, maybe it is not as bad as it seems...

JLL · Jan 4, 2003, 10:37 AM

Originally posted by dru:
Irrelavent.

iMovie 2 and iDVD 2 were included with the $129 Jaguar update, were they not?

No, iMovie 2 is, but they only way for iDVD 1 owners to get iDVD 2 is to pay for the upgrade.

daftpig · Jan 4, 2003, 11:00 AM

Charging only won't make users switch _immediately_.

Unless Apple has decided that it can live off America and its richer allies, it's rather inconceivable how Macs can ever compete with PCs in places like Asia.

In Singapore for instance, most high school kids build their own PCs or have friends who will do it for them. Support is rarely an issue for PC users since the local population is highly literate in tech matters. Support for Macs however, is always an issue.

Of course, given that the Chinese government has chosen not to rely on MS software, you can forget about Apple being there if at all.

daftpig · Jan 4, 2003, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by MickS:

Any costs will not impact new customers, if you buy a new Mac you will get the new software versions.

BUT... has anyone thought of how existing versions of iApps can work with the continual plethora of updates to the OS, which of course make changes to underlying frameworks?

Chun Hsu · Jan 4, 2003, 12:05 PM

Originally posted by Subzero Diesel949:
Sorry, we all don't have bottomless wallets.

Apple is really milking it to us these days.

Hardware - whatever price you paid for it
QuickTime 6 Serial - $30 (plus another $30 for QT 5 serial under OS X 1.0)
.Mac - $99/yr to keep existing mac.com account
Jaguar - $129 - to get a working version of OS X that should have been 10.0 from the start

And now $50 for the iApps...mind you iDVD only being useful if you have the SuperDrive

Do the math...and you wonder why so many people are b!tching.

...

I was also up in arms initially until I found out that Apple always charged for major upgrades for iDVD and iMovie. I wasn't mad about the actual charge itself, I was just mad that Apple changed their policy as with .Mac.

Now that it's clear the policy hasn't changed, I think $50 is pretty reasonable for iDVD and iMovie.

For those of you still complaining, adding up the price for these various upgrades is not really useful. Other than the Jaguar update, most users do not need to upgrade their apps at all. I lived in the Windows world for many years and the only thing that Microsoft updated for free was Internet Explorer and media player. Everything else, I had to download or buy. Yes there is more choice, but quite frankly a lot of the software is unpolished and complicated compared to the Apple apps.

kman42 · Jan 4, 2003, 12:10 PM

Originally posted by brainchild2b:
As someone who considers themselves "well off" I normally wouldn't have a problem paying.

Right now apple offers us substandard and behind the times hardware, and at an overpriced rate. The only advantage over EVEN owning a Mac anymore is the software. Start charging for the software and you've just destroyed every good reason for me NOT to buy a PC.

If apple gets it's hardware straight and offers me a damn good reason to pay $2000 more than i would for a PC then it's okay for them to charge me for the software. But since they charge more for underpowered hardware right now they have no business doing so.

Just my 2 cents

Then switch.

Your Mac was worth it when you bought it or you wouldn't have purchased it. If a paid iApp upgrade isn't worth it to you, then don't buy it.

If you would like to make the argument that Apple's actions will prevent you from buying another Mac because iMovie 4, iDVD 4, and iPhoto 3 will cost you $50 (you will get iM3, iD3, and iD4 for free when you buy your next Mac), then I'll listen.

kman

kman42 · Jan 4, 2003, 12:15 PM

Originally posted by Technicolor:
I was under the impression that's why we were all paying a premium for our machines (the iApps and the killer OS). I don't really see how they can justify charging for updates to those apps. Where's the incentive to buy an Apple if they do this? Sounds lame, I'm hoping it's just a rumor.

Why does everyone here seem to have the same delusion.

Repeat after me:

UPGRADES TO THE IAPPS HAVE COST MONEY BEFORE.

OpenStep · Jan 4, 2003, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by kman42:
Why does everyone here seem to have the same delusion.

Repeat after me:

UPGRADES TO THE IAPPS HAVE COST MONEY BEFORE.

iMovie for OS 9 cost money, but iMovie 2 for OS X has been in the software folder on the iDisk even before .mac started costing money. iTunes has always been free, iPhoto free, only one that wasn't free was iDVD.

mishap · Jan 4, 2003, 01:31 PM

You pay for software you will use.

i think what people are all pissed about is that these apps really are not worth paying for unless you would actually get a lot of use out of them. Like i said before, i would definately put down cash for iTunes even the way it is.

and if you dont use them a lot, but still want to use them, then you probably know how to get them.

so let's all just chill out... and wait for the spectacle on Tuesday morning.

SpeedRacer · Jan 4, 2003, 01:38 PM

Originally posted by Millennium:
No, Apple doesn't have $40 billion in the bank. They do, however, have $6 billion; this is still more than enough that they can't justify this. They're a hardware company; this is where they make their money. If they want to go software then by all means go software, but they're taking away one of the Mac's biggest advantages with all of this nickel-and-dime'ing they're doing.

Frankly, I agree with Millenium.

Justifying charging for iApps as covering software development costs? BS. Apple's fighting a losing battle here. In case we didn't notice, market share is slipping year over year. Traditional markets where Apple has dominated before are on slippery slopes (education, publishing, etc) at least in part b/c of repeated massive changes to hardware/software developments that leave current customers out in the cold by means of planned obselescence, lack of appropriate customer/client training efforts, or paid upgrades to previously free software.

Apple and M$ are not unalike.

Contrary to public perception, Windows is not a major reveneue draw. Microsoft's bread and butter is it's Office suite. Windows is merely a conduit for pushing Office. Most customers never buy an upgrade to Windows - they just wait till they get a new computer to upgrade. Yet by establishing Windows as the standard across all Intel-based hardware, Microsoft has the perfect base to charge the exorbiant rate of $600/box for Office - "hey look at how well it integrates into Windows!" Strategy: make the OS defacto, make Office necessary, and then milk the $hit out of Office.

Contrary to public perception, Mac OS is not a major revenue draw for Apple. Apple's bread and butter has always been it's hardware line - Macintosh computers have the highest markup in the industry. Yet in order to be able to milk the hardware, Apple needs a draw to get people on board the hardware. Mac OS (as great as it may be) is no longer enough. The "OS" is simply not an advantage most consumers can understand or associate with - being able to publishing your photos to a website in 3 clicks, create a digital movie from your daughter's b-day, or burn a custom CD in 10 minutes *is*.

The iApps are free b/c they need to be free. The iApps are the merely the extensions of the Mac OS which are necessary for Apple to increase it's bread and butter, exorbiantly-priced hardware line. Strategy: make the Mac OS/iApps exclusive to your hardware, get people interested in buying your hardware, then milk the $hit out of that hardware.

At this point in the game, Apple needs compelling, incontrovertible reasons to get people on board with the Macintosh platform. It's OK to charge b/c they get it free with their new Mac? BS! How many Windows users are really going to get a chance to see these wonderfull tools if 50% of current Mac users refuse to upgrade b/c of added fees? Everyone knows that the best salesmen are your happy customers. This is going to piss a *lot* of customers off. Apple is going to lose a lot of salesmen.

.Mac got by b/c it represented the first move of it's kind by Apple and it could be deemed as nonessential to many. You simply cannot say that for iDVD, iPhoto, iTunes, and iCal. They are in use by a major portion of the Mac customer base. More importantly, they represent the very clear, indisputable advantages that Apple needs to get new and keep existing Mac users on board. Why work so hard to get people to see the advantages of the Mac by lowering the entrance fee and opening the doors then turn around and jack the fee and slam the doors in their face?

By charging for upgrades to one (if not many) of the very core reasons to use a Mac at present Apple is merely stabbing themselves in the foot - continuing to gain new customers at the cost of losing just as many existing users. Paid upgrades may affect only your existing customers, but where does that leave us? Subsidize your *new* customers on the backs of your *existing* customers? BS!

If Apple needs more revenue from software efforts perhaps they should simply look at a new business model b/c their current model simply does not allow for this. You can't have your cake (premium hardware) and eat it too (charging for reasons to buy hardare).

Think about it.

Speed

Appleman · Jan 4, 2003, 01:58 PM

Originally posted by SpeedRacer:
Frankly, I agree with Millenium.

Justifying charging for iApps as covering software development costs? BS. Apple's fighting a losing battle here. In case we didn't notice, market share is slipping year over year. Traditional markets where Apple has dominated before are on slippery slopes (education, publishing, etc) at least in part b/c of repeated massive changes to hardware/software developments that leave current customers out in the cold by means of planned obselescence, lack of appropriate customer/client training efforts, or paid upgrades to previously free software.

Apple and M$ are not unalike.

Contrary to public perception, Windows is not a major reveneue draw. Microsoft's bread and butter is it's Office suite. Windows is merely a conduit for pushing Office. Most customers never buy an upgrade to Windows - they just wait till they get a new computer to upgrade. Yet by establishing Windows as the standard across all Intel-based hardware, Microsoft has the perfect base to charge the exorbiant rate of $600/box for Office - "hey look at how well it integrates into Windows!" Strategy: make the OS defacto, make Office necessary, and then milk the $hit out of Office.

Contrary to public perception, Mac OS is not a major revenue draw for Apple. Apple's bread and butter has always been it's hardware line - Macintosh computers have the highest markup in the industry. Yet in order to be able to milk the hardware, Apple needs a draw to get people on board the hardware. Mac OS (as great as it may be) is no longer enough. The "OS" is simply not an advantage most consumers can understand or associate with - being able to publishing your photos to a website in 3 clicks, create a digital movie from your daughter's b-day, or burn a custom CD in 10 minutes *is*.

The iApps are free b/c they need to be free. The iApps are the merely the extensions of the Mac OS which are necessary for Apple to increase it's bread and butter, exorbiantly-priced hardware line. Strategy: make the Mac OS/iApps exclusive to your hardware, get people interested in buying your hardware, then milk the $hit out of that hardware.

At this point in the game, Apple needs compelling, incontrovertible reasons to get people on board with the Macintosh platform. It's OK to charge b/c they get it free with their new Mac? BS! How many Windows users are really going to get a chance to see these wonderfull tools if 50% of current Mac users refuse to upgrade b/c of added fees? Everyone knows that the best salesmen are your happy customers. This is going to piss a *lot* of customers off. Apple is going to lose a lot of salesmen.

.Mac got by b/c it represented the first move of it's kind by Apple and it could be deemed as nonessential to many. You simply cannot say that for iDVD, iPhoto, iTunes, and iCal. They are in use by a major portion of the Mac customer base. More importantly, they represent the very clear, indisputable advantages that Apple needs to get new and keep existing Mac users on board. Why work so hard to get people to see the advantages of the Mac by lowering the entrance fee and opening the doors then turn around and jack the fee and slam the doors in their face?

By charging for upgrades to one (if not many) of the very core reasons to use a Mac at present Apple is merely stabbing themselves in the foot - continuing to gain new customers at the cost of losing just as many existing users. Paid upgrades may affect only your existing customers, but where does that leave us? Subsidize your *new* customers on the backs of your *existing* customers? BS!

If Apple needs more revenue from software efforts perhaps they should simply look at a new business model b/c their current model simply does not allow for this. You can't have your cake (premium hardware) and eat it too (charging for reasons to buy hardare).

Think about it.

Speed

I totally agree!

theolein · Jan 4, 2003, 01:58 PM

Originally posted by Parky:
I see we have our first Windows Switcher !!

Now let me see, what great 'free apps' can you get for Windows ?

Or better yet, what can you get for $50 ?

Not a great deal, nothing as good as the Apple iApps.

Why of why do people not want to support the company they claim they love ?

I know lets all break in the Apple Stores and steal the machines. Or is that going too far?

Outlook Express, the MediaPlayer, a fast Browser(I won't mention the quality or the licence which are crap), cheap alternatives (go to download.com and look at win shareware for $50, literally thousands). I wanted to switch back to Macs in January, but there is simply no motivation for me to do this. I think what pisses the people off so much is the impression that Apple is doing a Microsoft on it's users. First giving away for free and then charging is known as bait and switch I think. Apple is dropping what used to be added value to it's OS. Paying for OSX is ok by the majority, but where is the added value? Microsoft does this sort of thing with WMP (pay for extra MP3 support etc) and it sells crippled versions of it's .NET dev tools (VC#.NET, VB.NET) for around $100 but charges a whopping $1000 or so for a realworld version.

Apple should really be careful. the .Mac fiasco was one of the things that switched me to a PC. A lot of people are in .Mac to see if there are any plusses in having the service, and might very well go elsewhere or simply not renew if Apple continues this way. Apple loses on both fronts if customers ignore the iApps because they feel cheated: Firtsly they make no money off them, and more importantly, they gain the reputation of robbing their customers. Fairplay towards customers is (was) one of Apple's major strengths amongst the core users.

The joke is that the core problems of Apple's falling revenue, old technology and a bad economy will not be changed by any of this.

JLL · Jan 4, 2003, 02:24 PM

Originally posted by OpenStep:
iMovie for OS 9 cost money, but iMovie 2 for OS X has been in the software folder on the iDisk even before .mac started costing money.

But OS X wasn't free!

Developer · Jan 4, 2003, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by JLL:
But OS X wasn't free!

It wasn't, but with the bundled applications Jaguar or a Macintosh has an OK value. If Apple is going to charge seperately for its iApps that's not the case any more. Honestly - without considering the software - the price/performace ratio of a Macintosh is way out of balance.

JLL · Jan 4, 2003, 02:48 PM

Originally posted by Developer:
It wasn't, but with the bundled applications Jaguar or a Macintosh has an OK value. If Apple is going to charge seperately for its iApps that's not the case any more. Honestly - without considering the software - the price/performace ratio of a Macintosh is way out of balance.

My point was that as an iMovie 1 owner you either had to pay $49 for iMovie 2 alone or $129 for Mac OS X with iMovie 2.

Let's see if this 'new' thing is new at all and not just the regular upgrade price on iMovie and iDVD.

TheIceMan · Jan 4, 2003, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by SpeedRacer:
In case we didn't notice, market share is slipping year over year. Traditional markets where Apple has dominated before are on slippery slopes (education, publishing, etc) at least in part b/c of repeated massive changes to hardware/software developments that leave current customers out in the cold by means of planned obselescence, lack of appropriate customer/client training efforts, or paid upgrades to previously free software...

Contrary to public perception, Mac OS is not a major revenue draw for Apple. Apple's bread and butter has always been it's hardware line - Macintosh computers have the highest markup in the industry. Yet in order to be able to milk the hardware, Apple needs a draw to get people on board the hardware...

The iApps are free b/c they need to be free. The iApps are the merely the extensions of the Mac OS which are necessary for Apple to increase it's bread and butter, exorbiantly-priced hardware line. Strategy: make the Mac OS/iApps exclusive to your hardware, get people interested in buying your hardware, then milk the $hit out of that hardware.

At this point in the game, Apple needs compelling, incontrovertible reasons to get people on board with the Macintosh platform... Everyone knows that the best salesmen are your happy customers. This is going to piss a *lot* of customers off. Apple is going to lose a lot of salesmen.

...Why work so hard to get people to see the advantages of the Mac by lowering the entrance fee and opening the doors then turn around and jack the fee and slam the doors in their face?

By charging for upgrades to one (if not many) of the very core reasons to use a Mac at present Apple is merely stabbing themselves in the foot - continuing to gain new customers at the cost of losing just as many existing users. Paid upgrades may affect only your existing customers, but where does that leave us? Subsidize your *new* customers on the backs of your *existing* customers? BS!

If Apple needs more revenue from software efforts perhaps they should simply look at a new business model b/c their current model simply does not allow for this. You can't have your cake (premium hardware) and eat it too (charging for reasons to buy hardare).

What a well-written summary of, IMHO, Apple's error in strategy. I love my Mac, as I'm sure most of you here do too. But as a new "switcher" it boggles my mind to read some people's insistence on defending the fact that Mac users pay more. And these same Mac supporters are proud of the fact that they pay more. I guess I just don't understand. Again, I don't think folks are saying that they don't want to pay for upgrades, but rather HOW OFTEN these upgrades come around, AND at the expense of current users. "Subsidize your *new* customers on the backs of your *existing* customers?" Yes, I believe this is Apple's strategy.

Mediaman_12 · Jan 4, 2003, 03:19 PM

It all depends on how much better these apps are going to get. A lot of people are basing there will pay/wont pay decisions on what we have with these apps now. Apple has to have a Considerable upgrade to these apps (especially iPhoto, which for people outside the USA has 2 less features, the prints, and the books)

IonCable · Jan 4, 2003, 03:36 PM

Here's my 2 cents on the whole charge for upgrade thing. I think Apple is moving to a new model. A new OS every other year with a charge of 79-129. On non-OS years it well be an iApp upgrade year 50 or so. I think new versions of the OS will included updates of the iApps as always. Just off OS major upgrades will be charged. What would be nice and already mentioned is these upgrades be included in a .Mac account. Face it, it sucks but the world is moving to a subscription based system. I would not be surprised if Apple starts charging a yearly fee for it's stuff. With more and more people on the net it's a much easier system to put in place. Just like your cable bill, phone bill, cell phone ect.

sushiism · Jan 4, 2003, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by kovacs:
Hah @*$#@ apple

First 129$ for Jaguar
Then 50$ for .Mac
Now 50$ for just three iApps
What next 129$ for 10.3 ?

Now try to convince a wintel user that a mac is not more expensive than an PC...

I am just a poor student, how am supposed to pay for all this ? I don't want to spen d all my money on just a computer you know.. aah

dont ****ing buy it then, why does everyone think they MUST have the latest of everything when most likely they never use any of it