[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

You're obviously neglecting he tremendous impact the Zune has had on the iPod's evolution.

ROFL

Microsoft Zune. A product from a company with little-to-no experience in consumer hardware.

HP-Palm Pad. A prospective product from a company(s) with extensive experience in designing and selling hardware and software.

And despite how many units it sells, or profit it generates...if it's a better product from a consumer stand point, we as consumers stand to benefit.

IMHO, what i like is the "vertical model" from a major player. Which will hopefully create a coherent product to compete with Apple. Android, Windoze, etc...meh...not my kind of thing.

[freudling]

If you're unaware of why WebOS is so good for a tablet, I guess you'll have to wait and see. Big hopes for this.

[driven]

I'd rather see webOS gain traction than Android. Just seems more thought out,less fragmented, and less likely to give me a migraine when deploying in an enterprise. It has a huge uphill battle though. Let's see how it goes.

[Big Mac]

Android is the smart phone equivalent to Symbian because of the way the platform has fragmented. I hope WebOS can be viable on tablets, but thus far it has been mismanaged in way that threatens is survival.

[freudling]

What is with you people? Can you actually use any prose that isn't just recycled from the media?

Please explain how Android is "fragmented". How this has caused users so much trouble that they are literally tearing out their hair. I'd like to see a clear, coherent explanation of this.

[Big Mac]

Prose recycled from the media, eh?

Just because you haven't done the research or don't understand the problems doesn't mean they don't exist. The platform is hugely fragmented, and I'm not just parroting some opinion piece I read on the subject like you assume. The fragmentation issues on Android are real, widespread and well know - problems like tons of OS variants, orphaned devices that can't be upgraded to a later version of the OS, different screen resolutions, different app stores - those are the ones I can name off the top of my head.

You have such a hair trigger for attacking people on here, freudling. Cool out and think a moment before you post - you'll look saner.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Prose recycled from the media, eh?

Just because you haven't done the research or don't understand the problems doesn't mean they don't exist. The platform is hugely fragmented, and I'm not just parroting some opinion piece I read on the subject like you assume. The fragmentation issues on Android are real, widespread and well know - problems like tons of OS variants, orphaned devices that can't be upgraded to a later version of the OS, different screen resolutions, different app stores - those are the ones I can name off the top of my head.

You have such a hair trigger for attacking people on here, freudling. Cool out and think a moment before you post - you'll look saner.

No, it's not a hair trigger. I keep hearing about Android being fragmented and I really don't see it. Not among my friends, not with the Android devices I have. I just don't see the issues that, sorry, but the issues that the media is pushing.

And yes, I have done the research, it's part of my job. What I do see is a platform that has gained considerable momentum in the marketplace over the past year.

Is it more "fragmented" than iOS? Yes, I guess. But this word "fragmented" has such negative connotations.

And my iPhone 3G was dead blowing in the wind after the 4.x upgrade, like others, because the hardware couldn't support it. Yes, it was close to 2 years old by the time 4.x came around, but it was basically unsupported. Not so hot when you think about this being an Apple product, without "fragmentation".

The issue here though is that hardware moves so fast now. The dual-cores coming out this year will likely put last years models to shame, including the iPhone 4 and iPad 1. Watch iPad 1 likely struggle with iOS 5.x when they add more graphic heavy stuff and more multi-tasking. What I'm saying is that Android isn't the only one obsoleting hardware.

[Big Mac]

The fragmentation occurring in Android isn't just about the pace of hardware improvements obsoleting older models - the fact you make that claim shows you don't understand the point at all.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Is it more "fragmented" than iOS? Yes, I guess. But this word "fragmented" has such negative connotations.

It has negative connotations because from a platform and consumer perspective, it is a very bad thing. Can you upgrade your first-gen Galaxy Tab to Honeycomb, for instance?

Originally Posted by freudling 

The dual-cores coming out this year will likely put last years models to shame, including the iPhone 4 and iPad 1. Watch iPad 1 likely struggle with iOS 5.x when they add more graphic heavy stuff and more multi-tasking. What I'm saying is that Android isn't the only one obsoleting hardware.

iOS 5 isn't even announced yet and we have no idea what features it may or may not have. Plus, the iPhone 5 and iPad 2 will almost surely also have a dual-core cpu.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Please explain how Android is "fragmented". How this has caused users so much trouble that they are literally tearing out their hair. I'd like to see a clear, coherent explanation of this.

I thought you were a developer?

Android is fragmented because if I want to build an application for Android, I not only have to make sure it works on 2.3, 2.2, and 2.1 but also 1.5 and 1.6 which has considerably different requirements. Do I want multitouch in my app? Too bad if I want to include the people who are still on 1.5. Do I want to use the latest and greatest Google Maps APIs? Then my app will only work with 2.2, which is a shame since there are a ton of phones being sold right now with 2.1. And then of course I have to make sure that it will run properly on the devices stuck with a 500 MHz processor and a 2.8" screen. For future updates of the application, you also must assume that the OEM or carrier may never update their device past the OS version that it shipped with, meaning that when I'm actually ready to release my application that it's been neutered past the point of viability.

[driven]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

I thought you were a developer?

Android is fragmented because if I want to build an application for Android, I not only have to make sure it works on 2.3, 2.2, and 2.1 but also 1.5 and 1.6 which has considerably different requirements. Do I want multitouch in my app? Too bad if I want to include the people who are still on 1.5. Do I want to use the latest and greatest Google Maps APIs? Then my app will only work with 2.2, which is a shame since there are a ton of phones being sold right now with 2.1. And then of course I have to make sure that it will run properly on the devices stuck with a 500 MHz processor and a 2.8" screen. For future updates of the application, you also must assume that the OEM or carrier may never update their device past the OS version that it shipped with, meaning that when I'm actually ready to release my application that it's been neutered past the point of viability.

That's not even counting the differences in device capabilities. (Keyboard, no keyboard, differing screen resolutions affecting your apps look and feel, and now even a game interface on the Sony device.)

As a developer you are forced to decide WHICH devices you will support, and it's not as simple as "iPhone/iPad/Both."

[imitchellg5]

Yep, exactly.

[freudling]

Yes, I realize it's more than just hardware... what's meant by fragmentation. That was one area I was focusing on.

Anyway, you post on here about things... like Android is the only one subject to this, although it's not exactly as you describe.

Anyway, every platform is subject to most of this stuff, including Apple... because their hardware changes... screen resolutions... processor speed... amount of RAM... etc. Why is Android good for consumers? Because it gives them choice. If we didn't have choice then where would we be? Not everyone wants an iPhone. Some people like choice... imagine that.

I agree with most of this:

Android: A Fragmented Platform or Not? — The NeoSmart Files

[freudling]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

It has negative connotations because from a platform and consumer perspective, it is a very bad thing. Can you upgrade your first-gen Galaxy Tab to Honeycomb, for instance?

iOS 5 isn't even announced yet and we have no idea what features it may or may not have. Plus, the iPhone 5 and iPad 2 will almost surely also have a dual-core cpu.

You know OreoCookie, to you it's a big problem, to consumers, they seem to keep buying Android, which has now pulled ahead of iOS in US smartphone marketshare. Worldwide it's got over 600% growth year-over-year, and has taken top spot. Go ahead and explain it away that they don't have choice on their carriers... cept they do. The iPhone is available on many carriers all over the world.

As for the US specifically, we'll see what happens after the Verizon thing settles, iOS may very well retake the lead. Who knows.

As for iOS 5, I've seen/heard things about it. It's going to be much more of a multi-tasking OS than 4. It is likely to use OpenCL to take advantage of better graphics support, for starters. Just like other major releases that don't fully support or even support newer iOSes at all, iOS 5 will likely run much better on the newer hardware, and may have limited support on older hardware, including iPhone 4 and iPad 1. Nothing new there.

Apple's going to give it as much time as possible because it's such a major leap... and will likely not be supported by most of their older gear. But it is their answer to WebOS and Android Honeycomb, among others.

[imitchellg5]

Consumers keep buying Android because they walk into a carrier store and see a cheap 2.8" phone that happens to have Android on it for $0 on contract. You need to compare high-end device sales vs. the iPhone to get a more accurate picture of what's happening in the market.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Consumers keep buying Android because they walk into a carrier store and see a cheap 2.8" phone that happens to have Android on it for $0 on contract. You need to compare high-end device sales vs. the iPhone to get a more accurate picture of what's happening in the market.

Hmmm, I wonder... Samsung is now the top mobile OEM in the US, the same guys who make the Samsung Galaxy S. The Galaxy S sold 10 million phones in last half of 2010, and more in its first 45 days than the iPhone 3G.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Hmmm, I wonder... Samsung is now the top mobile OEM in the US, the same guys who make the Samsung Galaxy S. The Galaxy S sold 10 million phones in last half of 2010, and more in its first 45 days than the iPhone 3G.

This thread is about the WebOS tablet. Stay on topic.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Hmmm, I wonder... Samsung is now the top mobile OEM in the US, the same guys who make the Samsung Galaxy S. The Galaxy S sold 10 million phones in last half of 2010, and more in its first 45 days than the iPhone 3G.

Comparing a device that is available on every carrier with one that's locked to only one carrier isn't exactly an accurate picture of what's going on.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Comparing a device that is available on every carrier with one that's locked to only one carrier isn't exactly an accurate picture of what's going on.

So what is going on?

All these perceived "problems" that you guys and the media keep bringing up. To you guys, it's a problem that Android is available on 2.8" screens on devices without GPS that don't cost the consumer anything. But to the consumer with no money, it's a solution.

Anyway, I've started a new thread to keep this on topic.

[Stogieman]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Hmmm, I wonder... Samsung is now the top mobile OEM in the US, the same guys who make the Samsung Galaxy S. The Galaxy S sold 10 million phones in last half of 2010, and more in its first 45 days than the iPhone 3G.

Is that 10 million sold to customers or retailers? We all know Samsung has been pretty shady with reporting their sales for the Galaxy Tab in the past. Why should we believe their Galaxy S sales?

[driven]

Originally Posted by freudling 

You know OreoCookie, to you it's a big problem, to consumers, they seem to keep buying Android,

It will be a fine solution for consumers.

For app developers, it's a problem because their target market does not equal the # of androids deployed. You have to target segments of that group.

This is also a major reason you don't see Android devices making the inroads into enterprise like the iPhone and (especially) the iPad.

Perhaps this will change. But there are other products coming to market (WinPhone7, WebOS) that offer alternatives to iOS without the mentioned issues of Android. It'll be interesting to see what plays out. Certainly HP and Microsoft bring a lot of clout and a good story when approaching the enterprise. Google does not. Apple has simply gained an enterprise foothold for lack of an alternative.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by driven 

It will be a fine solution for consumers.

For app developers, it's a problem because their target market does not equal the # of androids deployed. You have to target segments of that group.

This is also a major reason you don't see Android devices making the inroads into enterprise like the iPhone and (especially) the iPad.

Perhaps this will change. But there are other products coming to market (WinPhone7, WebOS) that offer alternatives to iOS without the mentioned issues of Android. It'll be interesting to see what plays out. Certainly HP and Microsoft bring a lot of clout and a good story when approaching the enterprise. Google does not. Apple has simply gained an enterprise foothold for lack of an alternative.

Please continue on over here:

http://forums.macnn.com/104/alternat...d/#post4050078

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Stogieman 

Is that 10 million sold to customers or retailers? We all know Samsung has been pretty shady with reporting their sales for the Galaxy Tab in the past. Why should we believe their Galaxy S sales?

Please see new thread over here:

http://forums.macnn.com/104/alternat...d/#post4050078

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by freudling 

You know OreoCookie, to you it's a big problem, to consumers, they seem to keep buying Android, which has now pulled ahead of iOS in US smartphone marketshare.

It's not just a problem for consumers, but also a problem to software developers: they just can't make any money off Android, unless you have a blockbuster. But even then, you have to work hard to make it work on specific models. It's really a pain. A friend of mine works for a small Mac-centric software development firm and pretty much the best thing that has happened to them in the last year was the release of iOS 4.2 on the iPad and the app store. But even bigger companies such as id software are very cautious at moving into the Android space.

Google is trying to fix some of these shortcomings in the future, but denying that there isn't a problem is actually hurting the platform you prefer. If I were you, I'd shout to google, Samsung and every other relevant company for you if you see a short-coming (I want Honeycomb on my Galaxy Tab!/I want Android 2.3 on my xxx phone!). BTW, this has worked in case of Apple on more than one occasion: it was developer interest that had prompted Apple to release a native SDK for iOS and to remove restrictions on how code must be written (when they wanted to kill off Adobe's Flash-to-Cocoa touch conversion utility).

Originally Posted by freudling 

Worldwide it's got over 600% growth year-over-year, and has taken top spot.

Apple isn't going for market share, but revenue. They're pretty comfortable with the segment of the PC and smartphone market that they have, because they're getting the best return on their investment (roughly half of all the revenue of the smartphone market goes into Apple's pocket, even more if you were to add iPod touches, the most popular iPod at the moment).

The reason that Android is doing so well is that Windows Phone 7 is doing rather poorly (in terms of business models, Android is competing with Windows Phone 7, both are licensed from a software maker to handset makers). MS is doing such a bad job at vertical integration and delivery of updates to fix 1.0 woes that even Paul Thurrot is losing hope.

Originally Posted by freudling 

As for iOS 5, I've seen/heard things about it. It's going to be much more of a multi-tasking OS than 4. It is likely to use OpenCL to take advantage of better graphics support, for starters. Just like other major releases that don't fully support or even support newer iOSes at all, iOS 5 will likely run much better on the newer hardware, and may have limited support on older hardware, including iPhone 4 and iPad 1. Nothing new there.

This seems like a list of guesses rather than something based on even the faintest rumor.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

It's not just a problem for consumers, but also a problem to software developers: they just can't make any money off Android, unless you have a blockbuster. But even then, you have to work hard to make it work on specific models. It's really a pain. A friend of mine works for a small Mac-centric software development firm and pretty much the best thing that has happened to them in the last year was the release of iOS 4.2 on the iPad and the app store. But even bigger companies such as id software are very cautious at moving into the Android space.

Google is trying to fix some of these shortcomings in the future, but denying that there isn't a problem is actually hurting the platform you prefer. If I were you, I'd shout to google, Samsung and every other relevant company for you if you see a short-coming (I want Honeycomb on my Galaxy Tab!/I want Android 2.3 on my xxx phone!). BTW, this has worked in case of Apple on more than one occasion: it was developer interest that had prompted Apple to release a native SDK for iOS and to remove restrictions on how code must be written (when they wanted to kill off Adobe's Flash-to-Cocoa touch conversion utility).

Apple isn't going for market share, but revenue. They're pretty comfortable with the segment of the PC and smartphone market that they have, because they're getting the best return on their investment (roughly half of all the revenue of the smartphone market goes into Apple's pocket, even more if you were to add iPod touches, the most popular iPod at the moment).

The reason that Android is doing so well is that Windows Phone 7 is doing rather poorly (in terms of business models, Android is competing with Windows Phone 7, both are licensed from a software maker to handset makers). MS is doing such a bad job at vertical integration and delivery of updates to fix 1.0 woes that even Paul Thurrot is losing hope.

This seems like a list of guesses rather than something based on even the faintest rumor.

OreoCookie:

Would you please take note that this is off topic, and a new thread has been started here:

http://forums.macnn.com/104/alternat...d/#post4050078

[ort888]

Maybe someone should start a new thread to talk about some of these things that may have gone slightly off topic.

[freudling]

Tomorrow baby, new WebOS tablets!

[driven]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Tomorrow baby, new WebOS tablets!

Really? I hadn't seen an announcement yet.

[freudling]

It's been all over the news...

And they'll likely be releasing the tablets and other products within about a month after tomorrow's event.

The Official HP Palm Blog: Thinking about February 9 -- and beyond

[driven]

Thanks. Aside from my occasional checking on MacNN and my daily twitter fix, I've been pretty wired-in to this project for a few weeks. We could have had a middle east overthrow and I wouldn't have known about it.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by driven 

Thanks. Aside from my occasional checking on MacNN and my daily twitter fix, I've been pretty wired-in to this project for a few weeks. We could have had a middle east overthrow and I wouldn't have known about it.

Don't worry. I'll post all over this thread tomorrow about it

[freudling]

Originally Posted by driven 

Thanks. Aside from my occasional checking on MacNN and my daily twitter fix, I've been pretty wired-in to this project for a few weeks. We could have had a middle east overthrow and I wouldn't have known about it.

I speak for others around the propeller-head Valley when I say there's a lot of industry-types excited about this. Aside from the possibility of HP screwing things up, WebOS is a contender and not a pretender. We'll see what they've done tomorrow.

[driven]

Originally Posted by freudling 

I speak for others around the propeller-head Valley when I say there's a lot of industry-types excited about this. Aside from the possibility of HP screwing things up, WebOS is a contender and not a pretender. We'll see what they've done tomorrow.

Count me in as one of those who are excited. :-)

[freudling]

Here we go HP, here we go. Clap clap. Here we go HP, here we go. Clap clap. WebOS baby!

[ghporter]

Unfortunately, HP has established a nice long history of screwing things up. When they bought Compaq, instead of pulling Compaq up to what had been decent HP standards, they lowered themselves to the standards that made Compaq buyable. I hope they don't screw up like this-competition is a good thing for everyone. But I'm not holding my breath based on them getting this right.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Unfortunately, HP has established a nice long history of screwing things up. When they bought Compaq, instead of pulling Compaq up to what had been decent HP standards, they lowered themselves to the standards that made Compaq buyable. I hope they don't screw up like this-competition is a good thing for everyone. But I'm not holding my breath based on them getting this right.

Gee, thanks ghporter... here we are getting excited and you come along and kill it! Here we go HP, here we go. Clap clap. He shoots, he scorrrrrrres! Mario Lemieux! Well, I hope can get that excited tomorrow.

YouTube - Canada Cup 1987 Final Game Goals - Canada vs. USSR

[The Final Dakar]

I have to say, in my time here I have never seen someone act like a cheerleader for a product, Apple or otherwise.

You are a strange, strange dude.

[imitchellg5]

The webOS event starts now.

Live blog

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Unfortunately, HP has established a nice long history of screwing things up. When they bought Compaq, instead of pulling Compaq up to what had been decent HP standards, they lowered themselves to the standards that made Compaq buyable. I hope they don't screw up like this-competition is a good thing for everyone. But I'm not holding my breath based on them getting this right.

Quiet!

I feel the same way though, HP got Palm for a relative bargain and it'd be very easy for them to simply kill off the product.

[freudling]

Oh no. The Veer... what the hxll are they doing. They have no idea. Not another mini plastic phone with a slide-out keyboard. Rubinstein, time to go man.

[imitchellg5]

Well... When the first Pre came out Rubenstien said he hadn't used an iPhone. It's pretty clear with the Pre 3 and the Veer that he still hasn't used an iPhone or any competition's devices. Very disappointing. I will say though that the Pre 3 seems very decent indeed, but still is not good enough to be a flagship device.

The TouchPad on the other hand looks great, but the apps look almost like carbon copies of the iPad's apps. Screen resolution could be a bit higher, but dual core 1.2 GHz processors and 2 Gb of RAM is impressive to say the least.

[ort888]

It looks about as good as an iPad... but they need to be significantly better than the iPad 2 to really make a splash.

[ort888]

Get to the pricing already...

[imitchellg5]

Seriously.

[ort888]

At least Apple puts all the meaningless bull**** at the beginning of their presentations.

[Stogieman]

11:15AM Jon is back. "A WiFi version of HP's TouchPad will be available in the summer, followed by 3G and 4G versions."

Seriously? Didn't they learn anything from the original Palm Pre release?

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Stogieman 

11:15AM Jon is back. "A WiFi version of HP's TouchPad will be available in the summer, followed by 3G and 4G versions."

Seriously? Didn't they learn anything from the original Palm Pre release?

What do you mean? Obviously they have since it isn't tied to one carrier (the smallest carrier).

[ort888]

I have a magical web browser that shows me what's happening 2 hours in the future.

It says...

1:36pm
Dudley Spunkowitz is now talking about the plastic alloys used in crafting the ring around the headphone jack. They have people coming around and handing out snacks... nice!

[Stogieman]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

What do you mean? Obviously they have since it isn't tied to one carrier (the smallest carrier).

I'm talking about announcing your products way before they're ready for release. The TouchPad will be released months after the iPad 2. Most of the features they are listing (video calling, dual-core processors, etc) will already be on the market.

[Stogieman]

ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzz

This keynote is dragging on and on and on...

Wake me up when they get to the pricing.