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Pol Lounge General News Thread of "This doesn't deserve it's own thread" (Page 61)
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subego
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Oct 4, 2021, 09:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
Often, you don’t really know how effed-up a company’s leadership is until you’re inside the walls. I worked at such a place once. It’s pretty demoralizing.
Facebook only requires glancing familiarity with the platform to realize it’s awful.
     
subego
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Oct 4, 2021, 09:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
Perhaps she joined, thinking she could help fix the problems.
Rather naïve, no? If so, it speaks again to her analytical skills.
     
OreoCookie
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Oct 5, 2021, 01:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Rather naïve, no? If so, it speaks again to her analytical skills.
I think we should be more graceful with people. I would never hold it against people for doing the right thing even if they were initially wrong or naïve. So I wouldn’t be dismissive and simply say “She should have known.” And if you look at it microscopically, Facebook surely does do stuff that is genuinely exciting.

Theranos is another example that comes to mind. Jean Louis Gassée (yes, that one) was very skeptical from the start, but I had assumed that there was some genuine tech behind it — I had assumed VC wouldn’t be so stupid to be duped in such a blatant way.
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subego
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Oct 5, 2021, 01:21 AM
 
What I’m holding against her is her moralizing, should she have been aware, or her analytical prowess, should she have not.
     
OreoCookie
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Oct 5, 2021, 01:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
What I’m holding against her is her moralizing, should she have been aware, or her analytical prowess, should she have not.
Why? I really don’t understand your strong attitude here. As a scientist, I like when people change their minds given new evidence — and morally, I like that they then act accordingly. I don’t like condemning or not listening to people because “they should have known better”. We need whistleblowers. They usually get the boot for years and become unemployable in their own industry. So what they are doing is at great personal expense.

Plus, I think you overestimate how plugged in other people are when it comes to things nerds like us find interesting. I don’t think you should assume that people keep track of Facebook’s exploits, gaffes and wrongdoing. How many people you know (and are very intelligent in their fields) know about Facebook’s role in the genocide of the Rohingya in Myanmar? The other thing is whether you are dealing with a company that “has problems” in a few isolated areas vs. a company that is rotten from the core and the rot stems from the top.

And there are lots of companies or industries that are “obviously” effed up if you know a little. Otherwise reputable banks make deals with oligarchs, knowingly participate in money laundering and tax fraud. Or basically every European car maker cheating on emissions.
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subego
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Oct 5, 2021, 04:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I don’t think you should assume that people keep track of Facebook’s exploits, gaffes and wrongdoing.
Oh, I agree completely, but I’m assuming something different.

What I assume is that she used Facebook, and formed an opinion of the company based on her user experience.

I question anyone who comes away from using Facebook thinking “gee, what a great company… what I’m most impressed with is their high ethical standards”.
     
OreoCookie
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Oct 5, 2021, 05:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I question anyone who comes away from using Facebook thinking “gee, what a great company… what I’m most impressed with is their high ethical standards”.
I think many companies have made morally questionable decisions, yet I would not ask someone why they worked for VW, whose leadership committed criminal fraud on a multibillion Euro level (and that's just one instance and not talking about other political shenanigans). Boeing is another such company. People who want to join a big company are probably under no illusion that their company is a paragon of morality. They just want to have a safe and secure job. Facebook provides just that for tens of thousands of people. And some less secure ones for people moderating content … 

PS I hate you for making me write these lines that could be interpreted as defending Facebook.
PPS If I were hiring people, I'd probably exclude people who worked for Facebook Well, unless they blew the whistle.
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subego
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Oct 5, 2021, 05:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
People who want to join a big company are probably under no illusion that their company is a paragon of morality.
Exactly. Which makes her complicit with it, and thus her moralizing rings hollow.
( Last edited by subego; Oct 5, 2021 at 01:25 PM. )
     
Laminar
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Oct 5, 2021, 09:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Oh, I agree completely, but I’m assuming something different.

What I assume is that she used Facebook, and formed an opinion of the company based on her user experience.

I question anyone who comes away from using Facebook thinking “gee, what a great company… what I’m most impressed with is their high ethical standards”.
Morality isn't an on/off yes/no good/bad - it's a spectrum. It wouldn't take much effort to find fault in literally any company or industry.

Morality is balanced with other factors, like career advancement, technical development, and compensation. The question is always what balance can you handle - the job may have offered significant benefits to her, enough that she was willing to deal with the "stuff" just like any company has "stuff."

As time goes on, your awareness of and tolerance for the "stuff" changes. Maybe it was enough that it finally boiled over for her.

She could have easily just quit and moved on leaving Facebook as a nice line on her resume, but being a whistleblower basically screws your future. She's going out on a limb here, especially as someone who is already at a disadvantage in the tech sector.
     
subego
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Oct 5, 2021, 01:05 PM
 
I’m not taking issue with her blowing the whistle. What I’m taking issue with is her being indignant when in all likelihood she’s an accessory.

Accessories don’t get to blow the indignant whistle, they get to blow the contrite whistle. When an accessory blows the indignant whistle I assume they’re trying to deflect attention away from their own culpability.

To put this another way, accessories don’t get to play the “surprised Pikachu” card.
     
Laminar
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Oct 5, 2021, 01:36 PM
 
Again, it's not binary, right? It's not culpable OR innocent, indignant OR contrite, but a spectrum of each?
     
subego
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Oct 5, 2021, 01:42 PM
 
I very well could be missing it, but I’m not seeing contrite at all.
     
Laminar
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Oct 5, 2021, 04:12 PM
 
The validity of the accusation and the contrition of the whistleblower are two different things, though, no?

I guess I just don't want to discourage whistleblowers by shaming them for having the wrong posture or whatever else when they're doing important work.
     
subego
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Oct 5, 2021, 06:13 PM
 
If she deflects her own involvement, it calls the accusations she’s personally making into question.

This is distinct from whatever accusations are implicit in the documents she leaked.

I understand not wanting to shame whistleblowers for their posture, but if their posture is going to make them appear untrustworthy, that doesn’t help, and letting it slide doesn’t help either. Distorting the truth is a bad look for a whistleblower. It’s a bad look in general.
     
OreoCookie
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Oct 5, 2021, 08:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Exactly. Which makes her complicit with it, and thus her moralizing rings hollow.
I think that attitude is way too black and white, and sets a standard nobody can really fulfill. If you are a quality control manager for the interior at VW, are you complicit in the dieselgate scandal? If you helped engineer the engine pylon for the 737 Max, are you complicit in Boeing’s actions when it comes to the Max?

I think you also seem to discount the severe personal consequences blowing the whistle has for whistleblowers. Even if they are celebrated in public, they usually become unemployable in the industry they worked in. In the industry they perhaps love, where they honed their skills.

Even if they were directly involved, I think what they do matters. I think it matters a great deal whether e. g. outside researchers have come to the conclusion that Instagram is harmful to young girls and women and another deal entirely if you learn while being inside the company that the Facebook’s own studies confirm these findings and that company leadership (read: Zuckerberg) has decided to not do anything about it.

I also completely disagree that if she attempted to minimize her responsibility that this would call the accusations into question. Her accusations are bolstered by the material she provides and the material that emerges as a result and corroborates her statements. The value of Daniel Ellsberg blowing the whistle did not come from his testimony, but the fact that he brought the Pentagon Papers with him. Even if a hypothetical Ellsberg had been completely depraved and did it just for the money, the truth he helped uncover was still the same.
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subego
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Oct 5, 2021, 08:56 PM
 
Like I just replied to Lam, the accusations she personally makes are distinct from the accusations implicit in the documents she leaked.

I’m going to hold an employee of a company responsible for what they know. I posit Facebook’s ethical bankruptcy is self-evident from using the platform, and it’s fair to assume she used the platform before she joined the company.

I don’t buy that Facebook thrives on conflict was a stunning revelation to her.
     
Laminar
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Oct 6, 2021, 09:00 AM
 
Fun facebook bit. Here's what Marketplace shows me.



It is almost 100% of the time that there's one item that involves skimpy clothing that's totally unrelated to anything I've ever shopped for or even clicked on. I can only assume they find that people maybe come back more often or pause scrolling longer when that's on the screen.
     
subego
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Oct 6, 2021, 12:15 PM
 
“Holy shit. Don’t you have enough tools?”

- Laminar’s wife, probably
     
Laminar
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Oct 6, 2021, 02:19 PM
 
Never fails.

     
subego
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Oct 6, 2021, 02:37 PM
 
I like how they snuck in the “$20 hoe”.
     
Laminar
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Oct 7, 2021, 10:22 AM
 
Facebook is going for maximum engagement today.



Also, I love all of the "Fishing Gear."
     
subego
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Oct 7, 2021, 10:58 AM
 
I’ve got nothin’
     
reader50
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Oct 7, 2021, 11:50 AM
 
Shared IP address for the home, and the wife has been looking at clothes?
     
subego
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Oct 7, 2021, 11:56 AM
 
I wonder if she complains that every time she searches for clothes, there’s always that one listing for an impact wrench.
     
Laminar
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Oct 7, 2021, 12:06 PM
 
Browsing at work which shows me as being in another state.
     
subego
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Oct 7, 2021, 02:11 PM
 
That shouldn’t matter. Unless this is an alt, Facebook knows it’s you, and has figured out why your IP hops around.
     
Laminar
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Oct 7, 2021, 02:27 PM
 
If they know it's me then they should know it's not my wife.
     
subego
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Oct 7, 2021, 02:53 PM
 
They want you to buy presents.
     
andi*pandi
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Oct 7, 2021, 03:00 PM
 
no one selling clothes for real, models them in the picture. You throw it on the floor wrinkled and out of focus and hope for the best.
     
Laminar
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Oct 7, 2021, 05:06 PM
 
Every. Time.

     
OreoCookie
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Oct 7, 2021, 07:26 PM
 
@Laminar
Youtube is pulling the same stunts, too. Many of their shorts (which I have never watched voluntarily) feature scantily clad women. Ew.
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subego
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Oct 7, 2021, 10:35 PM
 
Yeah, umm… ew. Totally gross.
     
Thorzdad
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Yesterday, 10:50 AM
 
Got an email from the water company today, containing this little bit of information...
POSTAL SERVICE CHANGES MAY DELAY MAIL
On October 1, the United States Postal Service implemented new service standards that increase time‐in‐transit by 1 or 2 days for certain first-class mail, meaning it may take up to 5 days to deliver some first-class mail.

This change to their delivery window may affect how soon you get your mail, including your water and/or wastewater bills. It may also cause a delay in receiving your mailed payment.
Thank you Trump appointee DeJoy.
     
Laminar
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Yesterday, 11:50 AM
 
Lucky.

     
subego
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Yesterday, 11:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
Got an email from the water company today, containing this little bit of information...

Thank you Trump appointee DeJoy.
From the horse’s mouth…

https://about.usps.com/what/strategi...ard-Change.pdf
     
reader50
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Yesterday, 12:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Lucky.

The pink ATV. A hint the algorithm believes a woman is on the line, at least part of the time. The scantily clad models probably work for both types of viewer.

They may not have necessarily linked your at-work and at-home browsing. ie - wife has shopped clothes at home on shared IP. Someone else at work has shopped for clothes on shared IP. Or at least looked at lingerie models.
     
andi*pandi
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Yesterday, 01:20 PM
 
That is not a pink atv, it is an old red atv that has faded. Again no individual actually selling clothes via marketplace etc models them, for privacy reasons. Unless they are trying to be an influencer?
( Last edited by andi*pandi; Today at 10:38 AM. )
     
reader50
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Yesterday, 07:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Again no one actually selling clothes models them.
When I checked Kmart for men's t-shirts, about 1 in 4 were modeled (including models shown on product bag). When I switched Kmart over to women's swim suits, about 90% were modeled.

At Target, men's undershirts were modeled about 15% of the time. When I switched to women's swimwear, it was 100% modeled on the first page.

Selection shown is likely to vary by your IP location. Both are offering selections in the area of my VPN exit. Now I'm wondering if my ad selections on other sites will start offering clothing.
     
Laminar
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Today, 10:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
When I checked Kmart for men's t-shirts, about 1 in 4 were modeled (including models shown on product bag). When I switched Kmart over to women's swim suits, about 90% were modeled.

At Target, men's undershirts were modeled about 15% of the time. When I switched to women's swimwear, it was 100% modeled on the first page.
Wouldn't it make more sense to compare like for like - undershirts vs. undershirts and swimwear vs. swimwear?
     
andi*pandi
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Today, 10:38 AM
 
I wasn't talking stores, I was talking marketplace/ebay/craigslist.
     
reader50
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Today, 12:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Wouldn't it make more sense to compare like for like - undershirts vs. undershirts and swimwear vs. swimwear?
I chose to be selective about what links I posted or alluded to, for the world to see.
     
 
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