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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Why is buying a car such a f-----g pain in the ass?

Why is buying a car such a f-----g pain in the ass?
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starman
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Apr 5, 2004, 12:46 AM
 
I need a new car. I already stated in another thread that I was looking at SUV's. Regardless of WHAT I'm buying, the process is flawed. I don't know what it is about cars, but why the f--k is buying a car so stressful?

So here's what I did yesterday - went to the local Chevy dealer to look at Trailblazers. I figured I'd go in, check out one in the showroom, ask some questions, and be done. Game face on, I went. The problem is, there are no Trailblazers in the showroom, they're in the back. In order to even talk to a salesguy to let him take you in the back, you have to fill out some bullsh*t paperwork (just name/address) for "marketing". I said that I didn't want to sign anything, I'm just here to look and ask questions. Too bad, manager's rules. I think about it for a sec, and I realize this has turned from gathering information to playing a game. F*ckers. I fill out the form but put my cell phone number down instead of my real home #.

So the guy says he'll be right back. He comes back 2 seconds later with a set of keys and a license plate. WTF is this? I'm not test driving anything, I just want to look. We go out to the back, he's a 22 year old high school dropout who aspires to be a cop. Uh, ok.

So we get to the car. I piss him off by deciding I don't like that one because it doesn't have a sunroof (which is true, but I wanted to avoid the test drive). I'm legitamitely intersted in the car. It's nice, and the console's set up almost exactly like my Camaro so it doesn't feel like I have to get used to a new car.

Here's where things get bad. Real bad.

We go back to his desk. He says he'll be right back. The "consumer truck" manager shows up. This is the guy the dealership sends out to make sure that the set of keys you come with aren't the set of keys you leave with. He's in his early 50's, and has that grufff voice you'd expect from someone who wants to make a deal. The scary part is that if you watch The Sopranos, this guy's just like Paulie - and I'm in Jersey. I was expecting HBO to be in the corner somewhere taping it all.

He asks how I'm going to pay for it - lease or buy, how much down? I said I'm trading in my Camaro and anything extra needed to get the monthly payments where we want them we'll handle. They appraise my car (which is f-----g beautiful BTW). He comes back and throws a number at me - $419/month. Too high. So I ask him, "how much did my car appraise for?" since I have to factor how much I'm going to need to tell Mary we'll have to put up to get it down to $350. "Well, it depends on the numbers we run". Such a bullsh*t answer. I know that someone gave him a number. So I say "ok, but don't you have a value of my car?". He starts backpedaling and says "yes, but depending on different banks we'll get you a better number". At this point I'm f*cking annoyed. I ask one last time, "How much did the appraiser tell you?". He seems to be bent out of shape because of this and he leaves for a sec, comes back and says $6000. I said that I was looking for $8000. He goes away and tells me he can do $8000. Great.

Then comes the haggling part. $33,000 for the car and $8000 for mine leaves $25,000. I wanted to get the numbers a little lower since he hasn't taken anything off the car itself yet. So I ask, "is that the best price you can give me for the Trailblazer?". He says "we're already giving you $2000 more for your car than it appraised for". Now, I know for a FACT I could get them to lower the price of the car to $29,000 since a neighbor got one for that. Even if they gave me the $6000 for the Camaro, it saves me $2000. So I said that I wanted my monthly payments to be $350, what can we do? He goes away, and comes back and says that it's going to take $5000 from me plus my car for $8000. In my head I'm thinking "bullsh*t". Something's not right. The $2000 more they're giving me for my car is crap. They can do better.

Now I start playing the game. There's a Chevy dealer near where I work that I bought my Camaro from and right now, I was thinking about seeing them on Monday because this guy's pissing me off. Honestly, I had nothing on me to give them in terms of $$$.

He says "you live close. Can't you go home and get your checkbook?"
"Mary left it at work" (lie).
"Well if you have $100 we can hold the car for you". (There were 5...they're not going anywhere).
"No, I'd like to come back on Monday and do it all at once".

He walks away. Get this...

"You don't need to leave us the $5000 today. Leave us your car and bring back the title and the $5000 on Monday, we'll give you the car now".

Now I've got red sirens going off in my head. These guys are so desperate that they're willing to give me a car without even finishing the deal, or take the title for the car. That screams desperation. I said that I'd call them on Monday to finalize the deal.

So I go home, and I'm real stressed. I didn't want all this bullsh*t, I wanted to look, ask, and leave. I didn't want to get backed into a corner like these people try to make you feel.

Tomorrow I go to the other Chevy dealer. Maybe they'll be nicer to me.

This kind of business practice should be illegal.

Today I was comparing prices on the net from varius Chevy dealers in the area. I found on the same dealer's site that I could lease the very same car for $335/month with no money down, so with the Camaro as the trade-in and more money down, I would have been happy. Why didn't they just tell me that when I said $419 was too much?

Mike

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thePurpleGiant
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Apr 5, 2004, 12:52 AM
 
Man, that is full on. My only rule for buying a car is not to buy it on your first visit. Go and ask questions, even if you want to buy right then, at least go away, do your sums, and go back and offer a few more hundred less. Anything, do not agree to buy a car on your first visit.
     
Link
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Apr 5, 2004, 12:53 AM
 
That sucks man. I would think you, of all people would have no probs gettng a cool car

Better luck next time eh. Luckily you're not obligated to buy from them
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OldManMac
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Apr 5, 2004, 12:54 AM
 
I spent a dozen years in the car business, in service management, not sales, and stories like yours are one of the reasons I got out of it many years ago. Here's a good article on what really goes on in some of the slime ball operations. It's no wonder people would rather have their teeth pulled than buy a new car.
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zigzag
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Apr 5, 2004, 02:38 AM
 
I feel for ya but you need to educate yourself or you'll get taken every time. The important thing to remember is that invoice and MSRP bear little relationship to a dealer's actual costs or profits. They're just guideposts. You also have to avoid talking about monthly payments until you've negotiated the price of the new car less your trade.

The quick and dirty way is to go to www.fitzmall.com , see what they're asking for the car you want, subtract a reasonable wholesale value for your car, and use that as a negotiating point.

The hard way is to calculate the invoice price, subtract any holdbacks and incentives, subtract your trade, add a couple hundred bucks, write it down, hand it to the salesman, say "Here's what I'm willing to pay, plus tax, title and license" and politely walk away if they don't come reasonably close to your price after two rounds. Just say "Thanks for your time, here's my phone number, let me know if you change your mind." It's worked for me a number of times but you have to keep your cool and be willing to walk away or they'll eat you alive. There must be dozens of dealers in your area willing to compete for your business, so be stubborn. It can save you thousands of dollars. Of course, if the car you want is a hot seller, or your trade is a dog, you have to be more flexible.

Either way, don't talk monthly payments until you've agree to a net price. The monthly payment should be a by-product of the negotiated price and interest rate, not the other way around.
     
Eriamjh
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Apr 5, 2004, 06:10 AM
 
If you don't want to get screwed on price, then be sure to carry a calculator that computes payments based on interest and stuff. That way they can never mess you over.

They will manipulate the figures to give you anything you want. It is a big game. Always act like you are a cash-paying customer. Negotiate a price first. Once you have a price, work on the payment terms (rate, length, etc.). Never be desparate to close the deal. Walk out if they mess with you.

Remember that these guys are professionals. Trained on what to say and when to say it. You are not. They have the upper hand on experience The only thing you can do is say no. A deal is always good the next day so don't fall for the "we can give it to you today only for XXX dollars." Stall if they pressure you.

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shabbasuraj
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Apr 5, 2004, 06:45 AM
 
Most reputable articles I have read say that you should obtain the dealer invoice of the vehicle you wish to purchase. These things can be easily bought over the internet or maybe even by local consumer advocate groups in your area. This will give you a true to life cost of what the dealer is paid the manufacturer for the vehicle.

Some quick tips...
NEVER negotiate monthly payments. NEVER tell them you have a trade-in. NEVER tell them you are qualified for any rebates (student or recent grad). Only disclose this type of info when and after you negotiated the FINAL price.

And what others have mentioned above, NEVER impulse buy a vehicle. Sleep on it for a few nights, this will give you more time to shop around.
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Spliffdaddy
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Apr 5, 2004, 06:52 AM
 
The monthly payment is nobody's business but yours. Obtain financing from your bank or credit union instead of the car dealership. All you need from the dealership is the exact amount of the check you'll need to bring them.


Here's what the dealership is gonna do:

If you say you want the payment to be $350/mo, they'll figure out a way to make you pay $350/mo for 60 months - when in reality you may have gotten off with $350/mo payments for 48months. Yeah, they'll find a way, either through higher interest rates or longer repayment terms or both. Maybe the payment would have been $332.64 if you didn't open your mouth and mumble "$350".

New car loans are like 5%APR with good credit. The fact that you've got quite a large down payment makes you a low risk in terms of default. That should offset 'average' or 'borderline' credit ratings and enable you to get a lower APR than folks who have little or no equity in their new car.

DO NOT discuss monthly payments nor financing with the dealership if at all possible.

Finance it the old fashioned way - directly with a bank. It saves you money and takes away leverage from the car dealership.

Even better. Bring a blank check from the lender and fill-in the amount yourself. Apply in advance and follow the common-sense guidelines and this is too damned easy:

If you qualify, you can be approved for a loan at a competitive interest rate. You can then negotiate the best price for the vehicle with the check in hand... just like a cash buyer.


http://www.roadloans.com/loans/content/rl/index.jsp

compare interest rates! dunno how roadloans compares to other lenders. they are reputable...that's all I know.
( Last edited by Spliffdaddy; Apr 5, 2004 at 06:59 AM. )
     
Link
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Apr 5, 2004, 06:58 AM
 
I like one thing the car article suggested that seems VERY reliable..

Get down the exact price with all the features, add on the method that zigzag mentioned, and then make sure that's the exact car you want, exact color choice, etc. Call all the dealers in your area that might have it, or at least a few, one by one note down the name of the person (so you know), and their bid..

basically along the lines of "I'd like to buy this car, but want to get the best price, this other place said they'd sell it to me for blah" sort of thing since they'll most likely try to give you a better deal.

At the worst, you can always take out a loan and buy from a reputable ONLINE dealer. A lot of money to buy online, but it comes from a local area and if you're lucky, the car might be brand brand new (never test driven, heheh).
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shabbasuraj
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Apr 5, 2004, 08:06 AM
 
this recent article about buying a new car in the US generated a lot of buzz here in T.O...

dealers were up in arms about the story projected a US bias/experience and that the CDN car buying expereince was indeed different...

I really do not think it is that different at all...

regardless here is the original article...

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...l=969048871196

and here are the follow ups...

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...d=968867497088

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...d=968867497088
( Last edited by shabbasuraj; Apr 5, 2004 at 08:21 AM. )
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Oneota
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Apr 5, 2004, 08:36 AM
 
Someone mentioned this in passing already, but I think it bears repeating:

Don't mention you have a car to trade-in until after the price has been settled. If they ask about it, find some way to change the subject without giving them any information.

Trade-ins are one way they find to screw you over by raising--or not lowering--their price the same amount as they'll give you for the trade-in.

If you don't have a trade-in, you'll suddenly find that they're willing to give all kinds of "dealer discounts" that they somehow mysteriously forget to mention when you do have a trade-in.

Even better, sell your old car somewhere else and walk in with that money in the bank to use for a down payment or for monthly payments (or sell it after you buy the car, so you have some means of driving to the dealership ).
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gorickey
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Apr 5, 2004, 09:15 AM
 
Damn starman, that's nuts...I've been lucky enough to always have my Dad's best friend to buy cars from since he's a dealer. I actually go with him to various auto auctions and see for myself what prices the dealers are paying. Every car I've owned has come by me standing right next to our friend telling him what to bid and he sells it to me for that price (I give him more just for the convenience)....it's nice indeed and I know for certain I'm getting the best deal...
     
starman  (op)
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Apr 5, 2004, 09:16 AM
 
Thanks for the replies, all.

One thing - when we start working the price down, they usually ask "do you have a trade-in?". I can't lie to them, or should I say "not sure yet, let's work on the price"?

I'm going to another dealer at lunchtime; the place where I bought my Camaro.

Mike

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starman  (op)
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Apr 5, 2004, 09:25 AM
 
Ok, sorry...

$419/month * 72 months = $30,168.

$33,500 for the car.
+6% NJ Sales Tax = $2,010 = $35,510.

- $8000 for the trade-in.

= $27,510.

So that means that the interest is $2658.

$2658/ 6 = $443/year.

That's 1.7% interest?

Mike
( Last edited by starman; Apr 5, 2004 at 09:40 AM. )

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thePurpleGiant
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Apr 5, 2004, 09:27 AM
 
Originally posted by starman:
One thing - when we start working the price down, they usually ask "do you have a trade-in?". I can't lie to them, or should I say "not sure yet, let's work on the price"?
How about saying "No, I want to keep my car around for a while" or something similar. Once you have arrived at a price, and nearly going to shake on it, say something like "So...if I were to trade in my current car, what could you give me for it?". Act like you are being swayed by them, and perhaps trading in would be a good idea.

Then you can simply haggle on a separate trade-in price for that. And then go for the final price by getting the price you agreed on for the new car minus the trade-in price, and then just knock it down a few hundred more. Then you have a good deal.
     
starman  (op)
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Apr 5, 2004, 09:28 AM
 
Originally posted by thePurpleGiant:
How about saying "No, I want to keep my car around for a while" or something similar. Once you have arrived at a price, and nearly going to shake on it, say something like "So...if I were to trade in my current car, what could you give me for it?". Act like you are being swayed by them, and perhaps trading in would be a good idea.

Then you can simply haggle on a separate trade-in price for that. And then go for the final price by getting the price you agreed on for the new car minus the trade-in price, and then just knock it down a few hundred more. Then you have a good deal.

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ryju
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Apr 5, 2004, 09:30 AM
 
I also need a car since I'm taking the current one back that was on lease. I am looking for a VW Golf or Jetta and they're so hard to find in good quality decent price. The best I've found was a VW Passat that I could get for no lower than $6000 CAD. It was a nice car...
     
mitchell_pgh
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Apr 5, 2004, 09:48 AM
 
I feel for you starman!

My brother sold high end cars for six months and got out because he said it was a "morally ambiguous" job. The bigger a snake you were, the better (and this was a "good" car dealership.

I've had to deal with dealers a few times, and I think it's some type of mind game they change every month just to F___ with you.

I keep saying in my mind, over and over, "If I feel uncomfortable, I'm going to tell them...". You don't seem like a person that would put up with much, but it's constant (this is more for other). It's their goal/job to get the most information out of you and ideally a purchase. They will make VERY unusual things seem normal like "we need you to fill this out to see the vehicle". One place wanted to do a credit check before even letting me test drive!!! <total BS as they wanted to make sure that I could afford the vehicle before even talking to me further[/b]

They purposely try to make you feel intimidated/uncomfortable, may it be the credit app., the vehicle, the trade in etc. They hope and pray that you will simply say "Oh, that doesn't sound bad" to their first comment.

They have a set number of things they can screw you with. 1) Price of vehicle 2) APR of loan 3) Trade in 4) Extras.

While they may "give" on two or three of them, they are going to be a hard ass with one of them. They will act like you are taking money directly from them or stealing from their personal accounts. They will want to talk about anything other then the cost of the car. They will try to get personal. They will try to befriend you. DON'T LET THEM

I usually say "I'm really only interested in the out the door price - EVERYTHING included..."

And when they give you a number, and then start tacking on other items, say "I thought I asked for an out the door price... Just give me a final number".

UGH!!!
     
mitchell_pgh
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Apr 5, 2004, 09:48 AM
 
Originally posted by ryju:
I also need a car since I'm taking the current one back that was on lease. I am looking for a VW Golf or Jetta and they're so hard to find in good quality decent price. The best I've found was a VW Passat that I could get for no lower than $6000 CAD. It was a nice car...
That's a good price if it's in good condition.
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Apr 5, 2004, 09:54 AM
 
Originally posted by starman:
One thing - when we start working the price down, they usually ask "do you have a trade-in?". I can't lie to them,
Why the hell not? Most everything the salesman says to you is a lie. All those trips to the manager "to see if he will let me give it to you for that" -- lies. All those "I'd lose money on it at that price" -- lies. Car buying is much easier and less stressful once you figure out that they are not being honest and upfront with you, and consequently, you have no obligation to be honest with them. At least not in the negotiation. Just make sure you are honest on the applications for credit and so on.

The advice you have been getting is good. Negotiate the price separate from any question of financing. You can negotiate financing and trade-ins later. Really, the only reason to talk financing with the dealer at all is to see if as a final sweetener they can undercut your bank. Otherwise, you are best to finance independently and shop at the dealer for the car only. That shifts the power in the negotiation away from them and toward you. Another thing that helps is walking in with a stack of printouts of identical cars from their competitors. I bought a used car after doing my research on www.cars.com . It makes it clear that you have the willingness to walk out of the deal if they don't give you a good price, and that shifts the power toward you provided that you can convince them that it's not just an act and you really would walk.

Another thing: always go to a dealer away from the major urban center. Go to someplace out in the country. They will have lower overheads (so lower prices) and generally, a nicer attitude. My partner just saved about $4000 on an Audi just by driving 30 miles down I95.
     
mike one
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Apr 5, 2004, 10:01 AM
 
Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:

DO NOT discuss monthly payments nor financing with the dealership if at all possible.
sounds like you could get a loan from a bank or credit union. they deserve your interest a hell of a lot more than some shifty car dealer. also you'll probably get a better rate from a bank.


if you have the time & energy try to sell your car through your local news paper, you'll most likely get more money than on a trade in. just a thought.

good luck.
     
ckohler
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Apr 5, 2004, 10:04 AM
 
If you are car shopping, you should stop by a Saturn dealership if only to browse around. For my experiance, buying a car from Saturn is less effort and paperwork than simply browsing the other guys. When I bought from them I went there assuming their whole "no pressure" thing was a gimmic. It's not.

Granted, there *are* better deals/cars to be had but I've not had any trouble in six years.
     
GoGoReggieXPowars
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Apr 5, 2004, 10:05 AM
 
That's why I like buying bicycles. Walk in, see if they have Giant's Iguana model, buy it, walk out. Granted, haven't had to do that in 11 years, but still.
     
starman  (op)
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Apr 5, 2004, 10:31 AM
 
Originally posted by ckohler:
If you are car shopping, you should stop by a Saturn dealership if only to browse around. For my experiance, buying a car from Saturn is less effort and paperwork than simply browsing the other guys. When I bought from them I went there assuming their whole "no pressure" thing was a gimmic. It's not.

Granted, there *are* better deals/cars to be had but I've not had any trouble in six years.
LOVE Saturn, HATE the Vue. It's fugly.

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bleuvixen
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Apr 5, 2004, 10:51 AM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Why the hell not? Most everything the salesman says to you is a lie. ...
     
gorickey
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Apr 5, 2004, 10:56 AM
 
Originally posted by starman:
LOVE Saturn, HATE the Vue. It's fugly.
It's a damn good price though...
     
bleuvixen
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Apr 5, 2004, 11:02 AM
 
what I usually do is look online at what you book value is on your trade, check KBB.com and Edmunds.com once you have that value you can have a reasonable expectation of what they should give you (be sure to look at trade-in value)

Next I look up what the car I want to but is selling for now.
goto edmunds.com and select the car and all the options, it will give you a "True Market Value" figure

I am looking to buy a 2004 Civic EX Coupe, it tells me that it is $16,590 TMV (that is what others are paying) with all my options and the color i like.

It will show any incentives for the car that are currently available, Honda has 2.9% APR and I think I should qualify, Im willing to pay $16,400 (i have several quotes around that from dealers locally) so with that and say $2000 down I figure my payments to be: $285 with tax and $200 for title transfer and $350 dealer fee.

so now when I go in I know that if I can get them to $16,400 I will be golden. I first will offer $15,500 and see what they say.


Can you sell your car privatley first? You will get more and your payments will be much lower with another $3-4K down and you will really have the negotioaing edge.
     
starman  (op)
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Apr 5, 2004, 11:10 AM
 
Originally posted by gorickey:
It's a damn good price though...
Very true. We had a 1991 Saturn SL-1 that went for 110,000 miles.

Mike

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starman  (op)
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Apr 5, 2004, 11:12 AM
 
Originally posted by bleuvixen:
Can you sell your car privatley first? You will get more and your payments will be much lower with another $3-4K down and you will really have the negotioaing edge.
Of course I could. The problem is that there's never a guarantee that the car you want is in stock after you sell your car. We bought the last available Honda Odyssey for 6 weeks in northern New Jersey a few years back. We went to or called every Honda dealer and all but one even had one.

I don't want to deal with that again.

Mike

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wdlove
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Apr 5, 2004, 11:18 AM
 
I belong to USAA due to my military service. That have a program available that is free. All I have to do is pick out the model that I want. No discussion of price, and then they do the negotiating for me. All I do is go in pick a color and sign the paperwork. They can even handle the loan

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Apr 5, 2004, 11:25 AM
 
Originally posted by starman:
Very true. We had a 1991 Saturn SL-1 that went for 110,000 miles.

Mike
ive got a '94 with 167k on it right now.
     
velodev
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Apr 5, 2004, 11:40 AM
 
Originally posted by starman:
He asks how I'm going to pay for it - lease or buy, how much down?
There's your first problem. You should figure out price first on the Trailblazer. There are so many variables that you just gave them free reign on messing with the car value vs. your APR / money factor. Tell them you don't discuss financing until you give me the price you want. And say "Matter of fact, if I pay cash... what kind of price would you give me?" This get's them thinking and playing your game.

I said I'm trading in my Camaro and anything extra needed to get the monthly payments where we want them we'll handle.
Wow man, you're gonna get raped with these guys. Now not only do they have the ability to mess with your TBlazer price but they can roll the price of your Camaro up or down. Tip: you don't have a car to turn in until the price for TBlazer has been set and you have your APR on your lease / loan. The Camaro should be a separate transaction. Don't roll other cars into your payment. Matter of fact, some financing companies won't finance you for a certain percentage over the value of the car.

They appraise my car (which is f-----g beautiful BTW). He comes back and throws a number at me - $419/month. Too high. So I ask him, "how much did my car appraise for?" since I have to factor how much I'm going to need to tell Mary we'll have to put up to get it down to $350.
Couple points here... the condition of the car is your opinion. In Black Book value you have Excellent Good and Poor. Do some research on kbb.com (which is blue book and your dealers doesn't have to go with those numbers). At least have more of industry wide standard of value for your Camaro. I mean, I could take my old Benz in there thinking it was worth 30k because it's vintage but that may be way off when it is worth 10k in Black book (this is the book dealers and California consumers use to value cars - your bank has one and all dealers have one. You can ask to see it - it doesn't hurt anyone but them).

How did this guy get $419 a month? Does he have your credit report? Does he know how long you wanted to lease / loan it for? I mean jeez man... those are some crazy variables that either you didn't give in the details or this guy is guessing and when you get to the F&I guy he is going to drop another bomb when his reality is set.

Again, don't worry about the price of your car until the car you want is solidified. Drop a bomb on them... I mean, they have no problem doing it to you.

ALSO, here's another note that is a good piece of advice that not many people take from me... it's a car, walk away if you don't get your price or payment or feel good with the terms. You have to spend the next 4 or 5 or maybe more years with this agreement. A) There are other dealers and B) there are other cars for sale. Don't hurt your financial stability with emotions running wild.


"Well, it depends on the numbers we run". Such a bullsh*t answer. I know that someone gave him a number. So I say "ok, but don't you have a value of my car?". He starts backpedaling and says "yes, but depending on different banks we'll get you a better number".
How is this car getting picked up by a bank so quick. I mean, the bank will have to roll your negative equity into your financing so they will appraise it so maybe I see his point. Tell him you want to get Excellent condition in Black book in the least. This car is well taken care of and you have the receipts to show for its maintenance (lie if you don't, they aren't going to ask for them). Be stern (even though you are discussing this car too early and you are in his court).


At this point I'm f*cking annoyed. I ask one last time, "How much did the appraiser tell you?". He seems to be bent out of shape because of this and he leaves for a sec, comes back and says $6000. I said that I was looking for $8000. He goes away and tells me he can do $8000. Great.
This means your TBlazer is possibly $2k more than the next guy. They aren't dumb. They don't give away $2k.

Then comes the haggling part. $33,000 for the car and $8000 for mine leaves $25,000. I wanted to get the numbers a little lower since he hasn't taken anything off the car itself yet. So I ask, "is that the best price you can give me for the Trailblazer?". He says "we're already giving you $2000 more for your car than it appraised for".
See my point. Your TBlazer is now higher than others. Don't haggle. Pick a price (research Edmunds if you need to for what other's are paying) and walk away. This isn't a hot ticket car - i.e. G35 or convertible Z350 - and you will probably get the guy looking you up in a couple days to wonder how your search is going. By the way, buying a car should never be done the same day. I have made that mistake before and woah, my ass felt sore when I walked out.

By the way, I forgot to mention that I work for the financing arm of VW and Audi. These aren't just my practive methods - this is what I have learned over the years.

Now, I know for a FACT I could get them to lower the price of the car to $29,000 since a neighbor got one for that.
Did your neighbor have negative equity in a trade-in?


Even if they gave me the $6000 for the Camaro, it saves me $2000. So I said that I wanted my monthly payments to be $350, what can we do? He goes away, and comes back and says that it's going to take $5000 from me plus my car for $8000. In my head I'm thinking "bullsh*t". Something's not right. The $2000 more they're giving me for my car is crap. They can do better.
Of course not, did you ask what your APR is? More importantly did he get a clean credit report or know how many months you are willing to swing this car?


He says "you live close. Can't you go home and get your checkbook?"
"Mary left it at work" (lie).
"Well if you have $100 we can hold the car for you". (There were 5...they're not going anywhere).
"No, I'd like to come back on Monday and do it all at once".

He walks away. Get this...

"You don't need to leave us the $5000 today. Leave us your car and bring back the title and the $5000 on Monday, we'll give you the car now".

Now I've got red sirens going off in my head. These guys are so desperate that they're willing to give me a car without even finishing the deal, or take the title for the car. That screams desperation. I said that I'd call them on Monday to finalize the deal.
If you call these theives today to finish the deal don't come back to these boards saying you got a good deal.

Tomorrow I go to the other Chevy dealer. Maybe they'll be nicer to me.
If you don't go to another dealer you will never know how dealers will fight for your business. By the way, don't go on a Saturday - they need to pull you in and push you out because Saturday's are high traffic. Go when they can spend some time on you.

This kind of business practice should be illegal.
It's retail. It's big business. It's not illegal. It is stressful.


Today I was comparing prices on the net from varius Chevy dealers in the area. I found on the same dealer's site that I could lease the very same car for $335/month with no money down, so with the Camaro as the trade-in and more money down, I would have been happy. Why didn't they just tell me that when I said $419 was too much?
Couple things - A) They probably don't have a vehicle in fleet that they can sell for that low. I am assuming most have add-ons. That is a teaser to get you in. Don't assume that's they automatically have those deals ready to go. B) Every car deal is different. If it wasn't and everything was the same, VW would be hiring people who make decisions on approving your loan/lease and the selling price of the car. If the world was full of people with 750+ for a credit score and auto-decision then maybe it would be cut and dry. It's not. C) You do understand the dealer has to do a lot to get that Camaro off his books no matter how hard he works to get the TBlazer off his books as well. He probably doesn't want it and will make you work to get one for the other.

Good luck, but this dealer is a wash and I would take some of these tips and start fresh at another dealership.
     
mitchell_pgh
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Apr 5, 2004, 11:47 AM
 
I've never done it, but I like the idea of selling your used car separate. It removes one way for them to blur the sale.

A newer thing I see is they have options built in that they try to tack on (I've seen security systems, first aid kits, GPS systems (all removable) but they try to have you add them on at the last second.

"Oh, and you wanted us to keep that security feature on the car didn't you?"

     
velodev
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Apr 5, 2004, 11:48 AM
 
Originally posted by mike one:
sounds like you could get a loan from a bank or credit union. they deserve your interest a hell of a lot more than some shifty car dealer. also you'll probably get a better rate from a bank.
Not true and not true.

Interest goes back to the financial institution. The financial institution might have dealer incentives for selling certain loans / leases but interest does not go to the dealer.

And, banks do not always have the better rates.
     
zigzag
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Apr 5, 2004, 11:56 AM
 
Lots of good advice. Actually, you don't have to lie - you can just say "I need to know exactly what the new car would cost, then I'll consider whether I want to trade or finance." Or you can just play dumb and say "I'm not sure, let's figure out a price for the new car first." But in this context I have no problem with lying either - it's a part of the game, and the salespeople are doing it almost every time they open their mouths. Whatever you're comfortable with, as long as you stick to your plan.

Some people like to let the dealer know that they're going to trade and/or finance - dealers make good money on used cars and financing and it can induce them to make a better deal on the new car price. The important thing is to know the net amount that you're interested in paying, and don't talk monthly payments until after the net price is determined.

I bought my last car from a "No Haggle" dealership (not Saturn). The salesman repeatedly told me that they weren't allowed to negotiate from the "No Haggle" price (which was below MSRP but about $2000 above what I wanted to pay). I politely said "Thanks for your time - call me if you change your mind," and as soon as I headed for the door, they stopped me and the sales manager came over and after a bit of haggling met my price.

Most dealers now have internet or fleet sales managers. One way to buy is to send an e-mail to a few of them specifying the exact car you want and either stating your offer or asking for their best deal. If they know you're serious about buying and that other dealers are bidding, you can usually get a good deal with little hassle.

What most people don't realize is that a dealer's actual costs on a car have little to do with MSRP or even invoice. Dealers finance their inventory, so they're usually only incurring monthly payments on a given car (plus their overhead). If they can turn a new car over in a week and pay off the loan on that car right away, their investment in that particular car might be only $100 in interest and finance charges. If they sell the car for MSRP, their profit margin could easily be 5000%. So don't fall for the "We can't make money" line - with holdbacks and incentives, most dealers can make money even when selling below invoice.
     
Turias
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Apr 5, 2004, 12:00 PM
 
I bought a new car a few months back and my experience was much less painful. There's a chain of dealerships around here that is "no haggle". I checked them out, as well as another local Honda dealership, and after experiencing all the pain of normal car shopping with Honda, I stuck with the original chain. I went in, saw some prices that were quite reasonable for the car I was looking at, and bought it.
     
einmakom
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Apr 5, 2004, 12:15 PM
 
the info here is good, especially the article from edmunds.com on what goes on in a dealership-

ALSO INFORMATIVE IS THIS:

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/8/4/163150/0581

Tells you info that supports spliffdaddy's assertion of financing through the bank or credit union-

but pay attention:

Oh, and for you smarty-pants that go to your credit union/bank and get preapproved, then go in brandishing the approval form saying "I'll only finance with you if you can match this rate". Hoo boy, they love you!! They only look perturbed (they want you to think you're the ****, after all), but inside they're dancing with joy. They now know the exact amount they can **** you over on the interest rate. For the people who don't bring in an interest rate, well, the F&I guy just kind of has to feel you out. This is actually kind of dangerous, because if he quotes you a rate that you know is too high, what excuse can he pull out of his a** to justify lowering that rate? "Uhhh, the computer printed the wrong rate"? He certainly can't tell you the truth! "Ha Ha, you got me, I was actually trying to defraud you out of some extra money! Silly me!". The sad thing about this fraud, and I do consider it fraud, is that the banks are part and parcel to it. Screwing you over on the interest rate is one of many ways the F&I guy makes tons of money off of you. He also gets a huge cut of: Credit Life, GAP Insurance, Extended Warranties and those completely bull**** "security stickers" and window etching.
READ THAT ARTICLE.
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Apr 5, 2004, 12:23 PM
 
Originally posted by einmakom:
the info here is good, especially the article from edmunds.com on what goes on in a dealership-

ALSO INFORMATIVE IS THIS:

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/8/4/163150/0581

Tells you info that supports spliffdaddy's assertion of financing through the bank or credit union-

but pay attention:



READ THAT ARTICLE.
Re: your quote. That's exactly why you give the dealer as little information as possible. Just tell them you have financing and leave it at that. When you have negotiated the price, you can let them quote you their lowest financing rate. If it is lower than your bank, all well and good. If not, you can still use your bank.
     
rhansen_x
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Apr 5, 2004, 12:46 PM
 
Here's the problem. You are dealing with typical domestic goods and services. Ditch the domestic, go to a Toyota or Honda dealer and get two things; 1 - a vehicle far superior to any GM, and 2 - respect from a dealer.
Forget the curveball Rickey, give 'im the heater.
     
ryju
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Apr 5, 2004, 02:12 PM
 
Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
That's a good price if it's in good condition.
It's in perfect condition, 170,000km, leather interior...
     
starman  (op)
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Apr 5, 2004, 02:38 PM
 
Followup.

I am now the proud owner of a Chevy Trailblazer.

Long story short, I went to a dealer close to work. SO much better. Nicer people, and $5000 LESS than the other place wanted. They scoffed at my trade-in (they wanted $1770 for a Camaro!) but in the long run, their numbers were better.

I did record the entire thing on my iPod. I don't know if I'll post it because there really wasn't anything nearly as earth-shattering as the other place. I pick it up tonight.

Thanks to everyone for their advice. You were all right - stating that you don't want to do the trade-in makes a SERIOUS difference.

We haggled, but it was good haggling, if you understand that. The manager did come around to talk about the trade-in, but unlike Paulie from the other place, this guy was nice. The fact that they matched the price of the other place WITHOUT my trade-in and allowed me to sell the car for more money on my own helped me make my decision to buy the car from the second dealer.

Mike

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splatq
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Apr 5, 2004, 03:33 PM
 
Originally posted by starman:
You were all right - stating that you don't want to do the trade-in makes a SERIOUS difference.
That's pretty much what I did, when I purchased my car...

Went in, looked at it, salesman came over:

"How much are you looking to spend per month?"

-- Don't worry about it, I can handle the monthly payments, otherwise I wouldn't be looking.

"Are you willing to trade something in?"

-- That's really none of your business, talk to me about final price and we'll work something out.

"How much are you willing to spend on a down-payment?

-- See above response.

When we agree on the final price & interest rate... "Oh yeah, I want to trade this in for XYZ dollars and I'm going to be putting ABC dollars toward the down-payment."
     
velodev
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Apr 5, 2004, 04:57 PM
 
Originally posted by starman:

I did record the entire thing on my iPod. I don't know if I'll post it because there really wasn't anything nearly as earth-shattering as the other place. I pick it up tonight.
Maybe I am not johnnie cochran but isn't that illegal without notifying them?

You can't be serious if you say you told them beforehand.
     
DesignerTerp
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Apr 5, 2004, 05:43 PM
 
Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
I feel for you starman!

My brother sold high end cars for six months and got out because he said it was a "morally ambiguous" job. The bigger a snake you were, the better (and this was a "good" car dealership.

Hah, what dealership was this?
     
waxcrash
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Apr 5, 2004, 05:50 PM
 
Originally posted by velodev:
Maybe I am not johnnie cochran but isn't that illegal without notifying them?

You can't be serious if you say you told them beforehand.
FYI, most dealerships have hidden microphones so they can listen to you talk to whomever is with you when you negotiate price, etc. After you make an offer and the sales rep leaves to 'talk' to their manager, you are being listen to.
     
Link
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Apr 5, 2004, 06:06 PM
 
Congrats starman
Aloha
     
   
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