[Athens]

Forum Post: Proposed list of OWS Demands | OccupyWallSt.org

Repeal the Taft-Hartley Act. Unionize ALL workers immediately.

Yes to Repeal, No to Unionize All workers

Raise the minimum wage immediately to $18/hr. Create a maximum wage of $90/hr to eliminate inequality.

RETARDED, all that would do is make a Happy Meal $25.00, though I do like the Maximum wage cut off, but $90 would be to low.

Institute a 6 hour workday, and 6 weeks of paid vacation.

ROFL at $18.00 a hour a 6 hour work week only works out to $2160.00 a month. $25.00 Happy Meal any one.

Institute a moratorium on all foreclosures and layoffs immediately.

I like this one, would help stabilize things

Repeal racist and xenophobic English-only laws.

Go to hell, its a English speaking Country. (French if you include Canada in the Demands)

Open the borders to all immigrants, legal or illegal. Offer immediate, unconditional amnesty, to all undocumented residents of the US.

Ok these people are just screwed and have lost all credibility.

Create a single-payer, universal health care system.

First good demand out of all this

Pass stricter campaign finance reform laws. Ban all private donations. All campaigns will receive equal funding, provided by the taxpayers.

VERY GOOD DEMAND!!!!

Institute a negative income tax, and tax the very rich at rates up to 90%.

Not sure what negative income tax is, but the tax rate worked well in the 50's.

Pass far stricter environmental protection and animal rights laws.

Mixed feelings.

Allow workers to elect their supervisors.

Interesting concept, and I think some places do that in Germany. The union has say over supervisors.

Lower the retirement age to 55. Increase Social Security benefits.

Maybe 80 years ago when people died at 50, but with the ever increasing life span the retirement age should go up not down. Social programs where not designed to care for people for 40+ years.

Create a 5% annual wealth tax for the very rich.

Unfair, no way.

Ban the private ownership of land.

No jive here either

Make homeschooling illegal. Religious fanatics use it to feed their children propaganda.

They must be smoking as much as those in the Occupy Vancouver

Reduce the age of majority to 16.

I don't really have a big problem with this as long as the smoking age, drinking age, and sex age goes down with it.

Abolish the death penalty and life in prison. We call for the immediate release of all death row inmates from death row and transferred to regular prisons.

Yes, and No. Yes to abolish the death penalty. Don't work. And no to life in prison because some people need to be locked up for life.

Release all political prisoners immediately.

Name some

Immediate withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan.

Took long enough for this one to get in here. Figured it would have been near the top

Abolish the debt limit.

I see no point in a debt limit either

Ban private gun ownership.

DROP DEAD AND GO TO HELL HIPPIES. You'all aint touching my guns!!!!

Strengthen the separation of church and state.

TOTALLY ABSOLUTELY PLEASE!!!!!

Immediate debt forgiveness for all.

NO, to many people owe me money. Maybe after I get paid.

End the 'War on Drugs'.

But so many cops will be laid off and so many private prisons and judges and other systems built around this steady wasted income will go with out. YES BAN the war on drugs already.

So um 5 good points?

[Athens]

Every one of these demands is a forum topic. Im starting off with the min wage. At $18.00 a hour companies will just raise prices. A Pepsi will cost $7 bucks, gas will be $15.00 a gallon and so on. It won't actually do anything to make anything better.

[Shaddim]

3 good points: WoD, campaign finance reform (though not the way they want), and withdrawal from the ME. The rest is either nutty or blatantly communist. Well, I'm glad they finally said something, at least now the general public knows what they're up to.

[turtle777]

Morons.

Someone must have occupied their brains.

-t

[Athens]

I read after I posted this that its not the official position it was actually posted by some one from the public. But its scary to think some people think like that. Some of the ideas posted are so retarded it has to be a joke.

The ending of the war on drugs is a good one and the best one on that list "Pass stricter campaign finance reform laws. Ban all private donations. All campaigns will receive equal funding, provided by the taxpayers." would dramatically change the corruption in the US government. Would be a government for the people again.

[Doofy]

Insane fascistic commies with zero IQ.

[macforray]

If this is the 99%, we're in a heap of hurt. F*****g morons!

[Lateralus]

Originally Posted by Athens 

Every one of these demands is a forum topic. Im starting off with the min wage. At $18.00 a hour companies will just raise prices. A Pepsi will cost $7 bucks, gas will be $15.00 a gallon and so on. It won't actually do anything to make anything better.

I lived in Australia for a yr. The minimum wage, not counting government-mandated employer Super contribution, is around $15. I don't seem to recall a Pepsi costing anywhere near $7 or a litre of petrol costing $4~. In fact, sodas and crap food were about as cheap as they are here, same for car insurance... 50 cent soft-serve cones at McDonalds...

Stop making up shit. It's just as crazy as anything you're accusing the OWS protesters of.

[Lateralus]

That said, I don't know that a significantly higher minimum wage from $7.35 is unreasonable for the US when part time workers are not entitled to any benefits such as health care or retirement contributions. $18 is quite aggressive, but a $12~ minimum wage is perfectly reasonable so long as such a large percentage of our workforce is self reliant for health care and retirement savings.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Lateralus 

I lived in Australia for a yr. The minimum wage, not counting government-mandated employer Super contribution, is around $15. I don't seem to recall a Pepsi costing anywhere near $7 or a litre of petrol costing $4~. In fact, sodas and crap food were about as cheap as they are here, same for car insurance... 50 cent soft-serve cones at McDonalds...

Stop making up shit. It's just as crazy as anything you're accusing the OWS protesters of.

So if companies are legally required to have to pay everyone more, where do they get the extra money to do this from? Bailouts? Or by raising their prices?
Basic business sense here Lat.

And you realise that national wage freezes are one of the main tools that governments use to combat inflation when things get out of hand, yes? And that the opposite is true - higher wages means higher inflation? (Just like Athens says).

[Shaddim]

Minimum wage shouldn't be handled federally, the cost of living varies greatly all over the country. Seems like a state matter, and should be handled by the states.

[andi*pandi]

That sounds like a bunch of crazy off-topic thoughts.

[OAW]

Since this is not even remotely the official position of OWS and is just a random post by someone named bchang1987 … who is either a total loon or an agent provocateur trying to make OWS supporters look like loons … then is there really a point to all of this?

OAW

[Lateralus]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

So if companies are legally required to have to pay everyone more, where do they get the extra money to do this from? Bailouts? Or by raising their prices?
Basic business sense here Lat.

Pretty sure the corporate coffers are quite full right now.

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Minimum wage shouldn't be handled federally, the cost of living varies greatly all over the country. Seems like a state matter, and should be handled by the states.

And many states do have their own minimum wages. Washington, for example, recently increased their's to $9.04.

The federal minimum wage is absolutely necessary because without the government to push, there are more than a few companies who would happily continue dolling out the lowest legal amount possible. If you don't understand that, then it's because you've either never worked a low wage job or it's been so long since you have that you don't see the field for what it is now and were never affected by the $5.35 stagnation.

The area of the country I lived in during my late teens and early 20s was hardly the cheapest place on Earth, but I had more than a few employers who were dishing out $5.35-6.00 until the last possible minute. McDonalds comes to mind - their entire business model is contingent on finding employees who are either kids with no qualifications, immigrants with poor language skills, people with criminal backgrounds or those who are otherwise extraordinarily desperate for employment.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Lateralus 

The federal minimum wage is absolutely necessary because without the government to push, there are more than a few companies who would happily continue dolling out the lowest legal amount possible. If you don't understand that, then it's because you've either never worked a low wage job or it's been so long since you have that you don't see the field for what it is now and were never affected by the $5.35 stagnation.

What does this have to do with whether the minimum wage is set federally, or on a state by state basis?

Is a state set minimum wage somehow not the government pushing?

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

So if companies are legally required to have to pay everyone more, where do they get the extra money to do this from? Bailouts? Or by raising their prices?

Silly you. There are no drawbacks to minimum wages. It's like government accounting: "real" accounting - just w/o double entries.

I say raise minimum wage to $10,000 per hour, and we all can be the 1%.

-t

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Lateralus 

I lived in Australia for a yr. The minimum wage, not counting government-mandated employer Super contribution, is around $15. I don't seem to recall a Pepsi costing anywhere near $7 or a litre of petrol costing $4~. In fact, sodas and crap food were about as cheap as they are here, same for car insurance... 50 cent soft-serve cones at McDonalds...

Stop making up shit. It's just as crazy as anything you're accusing the OWS protesters of.

And how much is a 600ml of Pepsi over there?

US min wage for many states is still $5.50 to $7.00, a Instant over night increase to $18.00 would absolutely raise prices.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by OAW 

Since this is not even remotely the official position of OWS and is just a random post by someone named bchang1987 … who is either a total loon or an agent provocateur trying to make OWS supporters look like loons … then is there really a point to all of this?

OAW

Yes there is because some of the people actually feel that way. Until a official list of demands come out we gotta work with something. A lot of the points are debatable ether way.

[OAW]

Originally Posted by Athens 

Yes there is because some of the people actually feel that way. Until a official list of demands come out we gotta work with something. A lot of the points are debatable ether way.

Fair enough. I'll contribute my 2 cents tomorrow. Chilling with the Mrs. now.

OAW

[Lateralus]

Originally Posted by Athens 

And how much is a 600ml of Pepsi over there?

US min wage for many states is still $5.50 to $7.00, a Instant over night increase to $18.00 would absolutely raise prices.

I answered the first part of your question in the post you quoted.

And... who is asking for an overnight increase to even $10, let alone $18? Where? Wage increases are incremental, everywhere, and always have been.

Quit FUD'ing.



The American minimum wage is worse than stagnant.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Lateralus 

Pretty sure the corporate coffers are quite full right now.

Since most people aren't employed by mega-corporations, by whose data do you make that statement?

And many states do have their own minimum wages. Washington, for example, recently increased their's to $9.04.

The federal minimum wage is absolutely necessary because without the government to push, there are more than a few companies who would happily continue dolling out the lowest legal amount possible. If you don't understand that, then it's because you've either never worked a low wage job or it's been so long since you have that you don't see the field for what it is now and were never affected by the $5.35 stagnation.

The government can push, but it doesn't have to be the federal government. Like I said before, this is a state issue due to the vast differences in cost of living from one part of the country to another.

[Athens]

Report before the Minimum wage in crease in BC

BC' s minimum wage hike could cost more than 52,000 jobs | Fraser Institute

Month after the 75 cent increase http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/pubs/lfs/lfs1106.pdf unemployment edges up first time for all of 2011

Two months after the 75 cent increase its still holding higher http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/pubs/lfs/lfs1107.pdf

Three months after the 75 cent increase it edges up again to 7.5% http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/pubs/lfs/lfs1108.pdf

Consumer price index shows a 2.1% increase for 2011 much of it in August 2 months for BC while the national increase was at 3.1% much of that being the maritime provinces and BC. after the minimum wage increase Latest release from the Consumer Price Index. Friday, October 21, 2011

Prices for goods and services did go up noticeably in BC after the minimum wage increase. And along with that many friends hours where cut or laid off over it. At my moms work they froze all pay raises for every one, let some people go and raised prices and it was 100% attributed to the minimum wage increase.

It does not matter how much money a company has to waste. A company must show growth and is obligated to look after share holders first before anything else. To do that means less hours, less staff and price increases. Now this is the effect of a 75 cent increase. A massive jump to 18.00 a hour would result in massive price increases to cover the difference so they can continue to show growth for share holders. In the US its a legal obligation thanks to a court ruling in the late 80s.

[Athens]

And a side note, a lot of my friends already making a bit more then minimum wage saw no increases so new hires are starting at rates they earned over the last couple years pissing them off.

Minimum wage increases results in a few things
- Price increases
- Closing the gap between higher earners and lower earners
- Cut hours or layoffs.

Net result, any one making more then minimum wage sees a decrease in the standard of living because prices went up while there wages didn't. Those making minimum wage see no real benefit because prices went up keeping them at the same standard of living as before. Just a few with less hours or no job as a bonus.

[Lateralus]

Riveting tale, chap.

[Athens]

so you really believe business eat the cost?

[OAW]

Repeal the Taft-Hartley Act. Unionize ALL workers immediately.

I'm sort of ambivalent towards unions actually. On the one hand I can see the need for their existence as a check on unbridled corporate power. But on the other hand many unions have a history of discriminatory behavior.

Raise the minimum wage immediately to $18/hr. Create a maximum wage of $90/hr to eliminate inequality.

The minimum wage should be based upon the poverty line and then automatically adjusted based upon a cost of living index. A full time position should at a minimum pay enough so an adult employee with 1-2 children would be 25% above the poverty line. The minimum wage for a teen employee (presumably with no children) should be set so that a full time position would place that individual alone at 25% above the poverty line. This would provide businesses with an incentive to hire unskilled young workers and introduce them to the workforce. This two-tiered minimum wage could vary by region based on the cost-of-living index. After all, living in NYC is a lot more expensive than living in Tupelo, MS. Once these are baselined then they should be automatically adjusted every 2-3 years based upon changes to the cost-of-living index. Then as a society we could finally put this issue to bed.

A maximum wage is a pretty bad idea all around.

Institute a 6 hour workday, and 6 weeks of paid vacation.

This may not be as far out there as it sounds at first glance. As a culture we've become accustomed to a 40 hour work week over the last century or so. But there's nothing to say that this has to be set in stone. As the workforce has become more productive businesses are able to be more profitable with fewer and fewer employees. It may get to the point where there simply aren't enough 40 hour per week positions to go around for the US labor force. Perhaps one day as a society we'll have to revisit the definition of "full time position". Naturally, this couldn't be solely on the company because if it had to pay an employee the same wages for a 30 hour work week as it is currently paying for a 40 hour work week (because the rest of society hasn't also adjusted and employees still have an expense structure based upon the latter) then that wouldn't really do much toward reducing chronic unemployment or underemployment. An interesting idea though.

Institute a moratorium on all foreclosures and layoffs immediately.

As a measure for combating the panic and "uncertainty" that likely made the economic downturn a lot worse than it needed to be ... this isn't a bad idea. Though I wouldn't advocate this as simplistically as it's stated. If you have no income then you simply can't keep your house. There's no point in stopping the foreclosure process in that situation. However, if you are employed and find yourself in foreclosure because you were steered into an adjustable rate mortgage (ARM) by some mortgage broker who assured you that it would be cool because you could simply re-finance again in two years .... but then you couldn't because Wall St. tanked the economy in the mean time .... well that's a different ball of wax. This often involves someone who was swinging their mortgage payment just fine at the "introductory" interest rate but now finds himself behind because it has skyrocketed ... very often due to poorly understood mortgage terms. Whether this is due to the borrower being a complete idiot ... downright predatory lending practices of the mortgage company ... or something in between .... that's beside the point. The point is that now it's a big mess and everybody is being impacted ... including those of us who have been paying our bills ... by the glut of houses in foreclosure that keep driving down housing values. There's something to be said about a moratorium on foreclosures for homeowners in that situation. Additionally, considering how the big banks are making record profits ... and as a price for the bailout the taxpayers provided them ... it might not be a bad idea for the government to require them to take a hair cut in order to stabilize the housing market and the overall economy. If a homeowner could prove they had the income to pay a fixed rate mortgage at current market rates ... then the bank/mortgage company should be required to issue a permanent mortgage modification.

As for a moratorium on layoffs ... as a means for stabilizing the economy that makes sense. But not across the board. Perhaps implemented as a company would have to prove it was losing money in order to proceed with the layoff. That would put a hold on situations where profitable companies announce and carry out layoffs in order to boost their stock price. In times of economic crisis it shouldn't all be about the shareholders. Having said that, I think we are well past the point of panic-driven layoffs so I'm not sure this is all that necessary.

Repeal racist and xenophobic English-only laws.

At the end of the day I think such laws are pretty silly. Government offices and businesses don't post signs in both English and Spanish just to be doing something. They do it because it benefits their operations. Otherwise, they wouldn't do it. But it's also pretty silly for this to be on a list of potential OWS demands.

Open the borders to all immigrants, legal or illegal. Offer immediate, unconditional amnesty, to all undocumented residents of the US.

I don't see how this would in anyway benefit OWS.

Create a single-payer, universal health care system.

That would be the intelligent thing to do. This would create the largest possible risk pool which would help to contain costs. Offer basic coverage through a publicly financed insurance program. Private insurers would be restricted to offering supplemental health coverage. You'd still need to do something to reign in out-of-control healthcare cost inflation though. It would be much better than the system we have now ... but unless the healthcare cost inflation issue is tackled we'd just be kicking the can down the road.

Pass stricter campaign finance reform laws. Ban all private donations. All campaigns will receive equal funding, provided by the taxpayers.

I disagree with this. Why should my tax dollars finance campaigns by loons like Michele Bachmann? Instead, I think all campaigns should be privately financed ... but with strict donation limits so the wealthy don't have undue influence. Perhaps $2500/election per individual. After that we should simply ban all donations by any person or any entity that is not eligible to vote in a particular election. That would eliminate all corporate and union and "Citizens United" type of donations ... because the last I checked organizations don't have a right to vote. Only individuals do. That would also eliminate people trying to influence elections in other parts of the country. Beyond that enact a $2500/year per individual limit on donations to any political party at the county, state, and national level. Then ban all political spending outside of political parties and individual campaigns. Problem solved.

Institute a negative income tax, and tax the very rich at rates up to 90%.

Ok now he must have feel and bumped his head.

Pass far stricter environmental protection and animal rights laws.

This is way too generic a statement. Such laws should only been enacted when needed ... not just to be doing something.

Allow workers to elect their supervisors.

It's a business ... not a democracy.

Lower the retirement age to 55. Increase Social Security benefits.

So we exacerbate Social Security's long-term financial problems? When we have too many retirees drawing benefits and not enough workers paying into the system ... you want to increase the number of retirees and increase the amount of the benefits? Looks like someone needs a lesson in basic arithmetic.

Create a 5% annual wealth tax for the very rich.

Depends on how you define "very rich". But if this were done such a surtax shouldn't go into general revenue. It would likely gain a lot more support if such funds were lock boxed for deficit reduction.

Ban the private ownership of land.

Some countries do this and provide 99 year leases instead. I don't see much purpose in this however.

Make homeschooling illegal. Religious fanatics use it to feed their children propaganda.

That bump to the head is much worse than I thought. He's starting to get delirious apparently.

Reduce the age of majority to 16.

To what end?

Abolish the death penalty and life in prison. We call for the immediate release of all death row inmates from death row and transferred to regular prisons.

While I can somewhat support the death penalty in principle, in practice it is simply to arbitrary and error prone. The Innocence Project has made that abundantly clear. It should be eliminated for that reason alone ... but beyond that a life sentence costs the taxpayers much less than a death sentence.

Release all political prisoners immediately.

What prisoners would that be and how does that have anything to do with OWS?

Immediate withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan.

Iraq will be done next month and Afghanistan in the next two years (unless Obama loses and a GOP President insists we stay in that hell hole). But what does this have to do with OWS?

Abolish the debt limit.

It is pretty silly. Perhaps even unconstitutional.

Ban private gun ownership.

Why? And what does this have to do with OWS?

Strengthen the separation of church and state.

I'm sorry ... I didn't realize it was all that weak.

Immediate debt forgiveness for all.

That bump to the head has taken him from delirious to delusional. Debt to one person is income to another. What a way to tank the economy in one fell swoop.

End the 'War on Drugs'.

It's certainly a waste of time and resources. Just don't see the relevance to OWS.

OAW