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Ibook Protest
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Quadra
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Dec 31, 2003, 01:09 PM
 
For all of you who bought the flawed G3 ibook line, here is some encouraging news. MacFixit is covering the problem and says on their site, "The most commented issue of 2003".

The Register UK is reporting http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/39/34676.html that there will be an "ibook owner's protest" outside MacExpo in SF. So far about 400 signatures for the class action, and over 700 on the online petition.

So much for being a "small problem affecting only a few users".

Apple needs to drop everything quick and fix this, it isn't going away.


Peace
     
-Q-
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Dec 31, 2003, 03:09 PM
 
Originally posted by Quadra:
So much for being a "small problem affecting only a few users".

Apple needs to drop everything quick and fix this, it isn't going away.
Actually, even if you assume that there's no duplication between the two petition lists, you have 1100 people that have been affected by this.

According to Apple's K-10 filing, they sold 717,000 iBooks in 2003 and almost 1.6 million iBooks from 2002-2003.

Which means, over the last two years, only 0.06% of iBook purchasers have been affected by this issue. I know this isn't the full number of people affected, as not everyone will have signed the petition forms, but it does make me wonder exactly how widespread this issue is? Even if you doubled the number of petition participants, the numbers don't seem to indicate that a large portion of people are bothered by this.
     
TheSpaz
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Dec 31, 2003, 08:06 PM
 
     
NYCFarmboy
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Dec 31, 2003, 09:42 PM
 
uh..whats the problem? I've had a 500 mhz white g3 ibook for 2 years now.

The only 2 issues I've had:

1. a burnt rubber odor coming from the keyboard....its been making the burnt smell for about 4 months now...(is this a precurser to the logic boards failing?) I was told it was the powersupply going bad.

2. the powercord it came with (hockey puck style) just recently quit working reliably (It would work if you jiggled it, but I just replaced it with a new one that has the lighted tip which I wanted anyhow.

Can someone please elaborate what all the fuss is about?
     
CeRtiFiedSkitZo
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Dec 31, 2003, 09:59 PM
 
Originally posted by NYCFarmboy:
uh..whats the problem? I've had a 500 mhz white g3 ibook for 2 years now.

The only 2 issues I've had:

1. a burnt rubber odor coming from the keyboard....its been making the burnt smell for about 4 months now...(is this a precurser to the logic boards failing?) I was told it was the powersupply going bad.

2. the powercord it came with (hockey puck style) just recently quit working reliably (It would work if you jiggled it, but I just replaced it with a new one that has the lighted tip which I wanted anyhow.

Can someone please elaborate what all the fuss is about?
You're part of a select few that haven't run into that problem. But others haven't been so lucky.

If you go to this site you'll see more information about there, they even have a video someone uploaded to show what's been happening.
http://www.searchrochester.com/blackcider/others.html
     
Quadra  (op)
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Jan 1, 2004, 08:41 AM
 
Now the "heat" is on...

Both Wired News and Cnet are reporting the possible protest, as well as the pending suit.


As to the lame "so many ibooks suck out of some many sold", take it from someone retired from the Law - Won't hold up.

Just as a matter of perpective, the ibook logic board issue combined with the screen issue is according to Macintouch far outweighs any other report of defective Apple products to date.

If you have not had a problem yet. That is good, but according to one tech I talked to at the Apple Store, who is a friend, and a thread on this at Macintouch, you will eventually suffer one or the other or both.

This isn't hit or miss, the following is from the story at Macintouch:

It seems there are two basic flaws in the white (Dual USB) iBooks (both 12" and 14" models) which Apple seem to be studiously ignoring despite complaints about them being widespread for over a year now:

"The hinge design is faulty. Backlight, video and power cables pass through the hinge from the logic board to the screen and the holes are too small for the cable assemblies resulting in stress and friction on the cables each time the screen is opened or closed. Eventually one or more of the cables either break or the insulation wears through resulting in a short and the backlight/video fails. This is often accompanied by fuzzy lines on the screen or users finding that the screen fails when tilted at certain angles and works at others. If your video works fine when you plug the iBook into an external monitor then this is most likely your problem. There are links in the Apple support forums to a site describing in detail how to disassemble your iBook and replace such broken cables, though you'd want to be pretty confident to try this as it will of couse void any warranty you have left.

The video chip on the motherboard comes loose when its solder gives way leading to video failures, usually with no warning. This may be triggered by flexing of the case putting strain on the chip until it eventually comes loose (some have suggested never picking up your iBook by the left-hand side alone as this is where the video chip is). If after a video failure you plug in an external monitor and it doesn't work this is most likely your problem and you need a new logic board. Some people have tried pressing down hard on the left-hand side of the case just below the option key to the left of the track pad and managed to get video back temporarily (apparently this reseats the video chip). Others have reported some success sticking rubber bands/thin foam insulation on the underside of the shielding over the video chip to protect it from flexing/pressure from the case. Seems like the case really needs to be reinforced to stop it flexing like this and/or the location and soldering of the video chip changed."

Just to further clarify another tech on Mac Fixit used a stereo scope to observe "arcing" on the motherboard, which the explains some complaints people have posted about getting a "shock" when they had it on their lap.

Again, the heat is on, and Apple will have to addresss this issue.
     
polendo
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Jan 1, 2004, 10:32 AM
 
I wonder how this is going to be solved. I for one, I'm worried that my Ibook will get the same fate as the affected people, but imagine Apple doing a recall of all the sold Ibooks between certain time frame?
     
HotSoup
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Jan 1, 2004, 07:58 PM
 
Originally posted by -Q-:
Actually, even if you assume that there's no duplication between the two petition lists, you have 1100 people that have been affected by this.

According to Apple's K-10 filing, they sold 717,000 iBooks in 2003 and almost 1.6 million iBooks from 2002-2003.

Which means, over the last two years, only 0.06% of iBook purchasers have been affected by this issue. I know this isn't the full number of people affected, as not everyone will have signed the petition forms, but it does make me wonder exactly how widespread this issue is? Even if you doubled the number of petition participants, the numbers don't seem to indicate that a large portion of people are bothered by this.
The petition is up to 1290. lets assume everyone that signed it so far has the problem. While you may think that is a small number, and it may be, it's still 1290 people. That's to much for a problem this big. Plus, like you said, not everyone signed the petition.

And when your iBook dies right after your warranty expires, I imagined you'd be pissed also. Sorry but not everyone can afford to go throw another $1,099+ away on a new iBook. I don't know about everyone else, but (for me) purchasing such a device is a rare event. And to have it die...

Plus, I bet it's like 5x - 10x that number.
( Last edited by HotSoup; Jan 1, 2004 at 08:04 PM. )
     
darcybaston
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Jan 1, 2004, 07:58 PM
 
Do you suppose the new G4 ibook also suffer from the tight hinge/video chip seating fragility?
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-Q-
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Jan 2, 2004, 11:47 AM
 
Originally posted by HotSoup:
That's to much for a problem this big. Plus, like you said, not everyone signed the petition.

And when your iBook dies right after your warranty expires, I imagined you'd be pissed also. Sorry but not everyone can afford to go throw another $1,099+ away on a new iBook. I don't know about everyone else, but (for me) purchasing such a device is a rare event. And to have it die...
Oh, I don't disagree. I think entirely too many people have been affected by this. I was just making the point that it's not a 'widespread' issue per se, based on the numbers we have available. But it is a problem that needs to be addressed. And hopefully it will be addressed by Apple without the interference of lawyers. B/c once they get involved, I'm pretty sure we can kiss any fair settlement goodbye for the consumers b/c the lawyers will take all the money.

Originally posted by HotSoup:
Plus, I bet it's like 5x - 10x that number.
Entirely possible. Again, I just hope it gets resolved by Apple before the lawyers get involved.
     
michaelb
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Jan 3, 2004, 06:07 AM
 
Originally posted by HotSoup:
The petition is up to 1290. lets assume everyone that signed it so far has the problem. While you may think that is a small number, and it may be, it's still 1290 people. That's to much for a problem this big. Plus, like you said, not everyone signed the petition.
I have a screen-dead out-of-warranty iBook (& attempting to get a Gold Visa ext warranty claim) so I'm not dismissing this serious problem, but:

I notice that there is a "Bill Gates" on the petition list uttering a Gollum-like celebratory "Yessss!"

Perhaps not everyone adding noise has an iBook.
     
darcybaston
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Jan 3, 2004, 09:48 AM
 
Warranties expire. If the alternator died on your car a month after its warranty ran out, would you sue the car company?

My fiance's compaq laptop backlight die within 6 months and her combo drive a month after that. Now the hard drive is starting to click funnily and we know it will die too soon. The 1 year warranty is done, but she bought the extended warranty from CompUSA so we're ok.

Should she sue Compaq or just enjoy the benefits of the warranty she paid for, and remind herself to never buy a Compaq product again.

I just don't get why Apple is being singled out under the expectation that free repairs and replacement should extend past the warranty. The warranty is a legal document that says, "we can only guarantee and be liable for this product for said time." They are not liable past the warranty, you agreed to this when you first turned on the product. It's like a EULA, open the package and you are legally bound to these terms. The warranty was on the top of the internal packaging to make sure of this. At least, that's my understanding.

If G3 iBooks have issues, then consummers will tell the world about it regardless of suing for money (which adds LONGTERM cost to products, keeps warranties short in the LONG RUN, and does nothing but give you a few extra years of computer use-instant gratification-should you use the rewards to buy a new computer), and Apple's reputation will be tarnished from its action or lack of action just the same, which will hurt its bottom line, which will motivate it to improve quality/production, without losing the money to do so.

Denying a company money by discouraging people to buy their products does MUCH MORE good than suing them. Legal dollars is lost money, just pissed away, that could have been invested in improving produdct quality, warranties and the like. Money from a class-action doesn't serve Apple and it won't serve you since money comes and goes anyway. It won't give you a longterm benenfit of any kind. Not even ego boosts last long, our insecurities drive us to continuously feed the thing.

Make a stink, by all means shout and spread the words that those iBooks may be horrible reliability nightmares. But get Apple to lose money through lower market share and not by dumping it to legal fees.

And why is it seen as negatively 'throwing money away' when you bought an ibook? You're a CONSUMER, things you buy are CONSUMMABLES, they're NOT SUPPOSED to last forever, or you'd never buy anything again and the wheel of economy would slow right down (except for toilet paper companies heh). And the rebuke is, "well, they're supposed to last longer than that!" How long? As long as the warranty says.
( Last edited by darcybaston; Jan 3, 2004 at 05:20 PM. )
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mgl
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Jan 3, 2004, 10:59 AM
 
Originally posted by darcybaston:
Do you suppose the new G4 ibook also suffer from the tight hinge/video chip seating fragility?
I had a tight hinge on my iBook 600, but it was fine. The hinge on my iBook G4 is nothing like the old one and isn't tight or loose, just perfect. I think this problem has long since been resolved.
     
iomatic
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Jan 3, 2004, 02:40 PM
 
Tell me something. As another poster has mentioned, what good exactly will come of the lawsuit, other than for the attorneys to charge exhorbitant fees?

I think the protest is a better idea than a frivolous (as most are) lawsuit.

Really, I echo the problems, but I returned mine for repair quite quickly--box came, sent it in, three days later, it was back. I also purchased it with AppleCare protection (as all laptop owners should). After three years, I'd expect any bit of complex technology to start to break down.

That said, I've seen my share of PC laptops break down far more often over time than Macs. Then again, that's hardly a fair sampling of quality control. Much like this debacle is.

Further thoughts?
     
HotSoup
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Jan 3, 2004, 09:43 PM
 
Originally posted by michaelb:
I have a screen-dead out-of-warranty iBook (& attempting to get a Gold Visa ext warranty claim) so I'm not dismissing this serious problem, but:

I notice that there is a "Bill Gates" on the petition list uttering a Gollum-like celebratory "Yessss!"

Perhaps not everyone adding noise has an iBook.
LOL, that's quite funny though.
     
Quadra  (op)
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Jan 4, 2004, 10:15 PM
 
The questions have been asked, "What will be accomplished by a lawsuit?"

The point of a lawsuit is to petition a court to right a wrong. In this case ibook owners feel wronged because of quality control issues on the ibook and Apple's refusal to address their concerns.

Let's be clear the ibook is technically flawed. This is not only my take (Apple certified tech), but also by others I have spoke with. Macfixit and Macintouch have both lent credence to this in recent articles.

The majority of these ibooks aren't failing outside the warranty period, but within the period. Many of them are experiencing multiple failures of the logic boards.

Granted, computers break, laptops are especially prone to this. However, when thousands of owns of one model begin to report the same problem, it is right and proper for the manufacturer to look into, or at least acknowledge the customer's concern. To this date despite calls from Mac Columnist, customers, bad press, Apple refuses to acknowledge any issue exists; yet over 300 posts related to the issue were removed from their support site.

As a 20 year Apple Customer and Tech, I can tell you this hasn't been always the case, I hope that Apple will simply acknowledge the issue and come out with some type of program or even a recall to address it. If they simply would answer 1 email, 1 phone call inquiring about the situation a suit wouldn't be necessary. The ball is in Apple's court because the issue is NOT going away.

While it's too early to tell we have already seen similar issues with the G4 version of the ibook relating specifically to the video chip becoming dislodged, and screen abnormalities.

A lawsuit doesn't have to ask for "money", but can simply get the company to "make it right". At this time it is the consensus that Apple issue a RMA similar to that it issued with the 5300/190 where the defective screen housings, display bezels, and housings were repaired and warranted for 7 years. This would be an acceptable and adequate redress.

But the law permitting class action suits is there to protect the consumer, otherwise where would be the justice?
     
grabbingsand
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Jan 5, 2004, 12:07 PM
 
Since I purchased by iBook in the summer of 2002, I have brought it in to have the logic board replaced three times now. I have grown convinced that it is just a matter of time and use before I will be going to visit my local AppleCare rep one more time. It is like every open and close is like another bend on a paperclip -- it is going to break, sooner or later.

So I don't want a settlement for a stack of cash. I just want my iBook to be dependable and worth the money I've spent.
     
-Q-
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Jan 5, 2004, 03:04 PM
 
Originally posted by Quadra:
But the law permitting class action suits is there to protect the consumer, otherwise where would be the justice?
Explain to me how this is justice:

From the News of the Weird
The Class-Action Money Tree
  • In a settlement between Sears and customers with improperly done wheel balancing, lawyers got $2.45 million, and customers got $2.50 a tire. [St.Louis Post-Dispatch, June 4]
  • In a $3.7 million settlement between televangelist Jim Bakker's Praise The Lord Ministries and 165,000 defrauded Christians, lawyers got $2.5 million, and each victim got $6.54. [The Citizen-Times (Asheville, North Carolina), July 30]
  • In a settlement of price-fixing charges against cosmetics manufacturers and retailers, lawyers got $24 million, and each customer got a free cosmetic. [San Francisco Chronicle, July 19]
While good in concept, I think the class action laws do need to be refined. At this point, it seems only the lawyers win.
     
Quadra  (op)
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Jan 6, 2004, 04:34 PM
 
While good in concept, I think the class action laws do need to be refined. At this point, it seems only the lawyers win.


Yes, it would appear when the redress is monetary. However, in many other cases the awards have been substantial. Also, the majority of class action participants must agree to the settlement for it be acceptable, and each participant can bring a private suit.

Again it depends on what redress is sought. The "acceptable" redress in this case will be a product recall/RMA.
     
-Q-
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Jan 6, 2004, 06:39 PM
 
Originally posted by Quadra:
Again it depends on what redress is sought. The "acceptable" redress in this case will be a product recall/RMA.
Unfortunately:

A) Not all will view this situation as you do.

B) Apple would fight that settlement tooth and nail. Why? Can you image the PR hit (and the subsequent stock price crash) when they announce the product recall for arguably Apple's most successful computer product in years (ignoring success of iPod as it's not a computer running Mac OS X)? The press, and Apple's education competitors, would have a field day. And I'd lay odds that while the recall would be covered by the press all the way down to Nor'easter magazine, there would be very little press coverage of the happy, satisfied customers that had their problem addressed by the recall.

My hunch? The class action will go forward and Apple will refuse any settlement involving a recall and then offer some sort of product rebate (because by the time this goes to court, some of these products will be 3 years old) that is far less than the value of the machine when purchased. The lawyers will get their chunk of $$ and go home happy and not caring that the customers got screwed. Again.
     
Quadra  (op)
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Jan 6, 2004, 11:11 PM
 
Possibly...

Except that the Florida Attorney General, and the AG of several states have been contacted by me along with the "evidence"; links, message boards, etc. We'll see.

The State of Florida and California, and other states can order a recall without a court order or intervention if they determine a product fraud has been effected. Which with prevaling evidence isn't too hard to prove that at least Apple is covering this up - point blank.

I also have several media contacts (local South Florida) who can keep this alive and put pressure on. Consumer reporting is a number one ratings getter.

So while a class action may rage and for nought except for the results you mentioned, there are other options available. No matter how much resistance Apple puts up, or how long it takes to get them to do the right thing.
     
Quadra  (op)
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Jan 8, 2004, 12:31 AM
 
Check it out:

http://homepage.mac.com/brianhess/

1516 on the Class Action so far (give or take)

2200 on the petition
     
bimmerphile
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Jan 8, 2004, 01:04 AM
 
Originally posted by darcybaston:
Do you suppose the new G4 ibook also suffer from the tight hinge/video chip seating fragility?
No.

The iBook G4 has the same logicboard as the 12" powerbook. It is not an issue.
-Kris Olson | 12" PBG4 1.5GHz
     
mgl
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Jan 9, 2004, 03:04 AM
 
Originally posted by Quadra:
Possibly...

Except that the Florida Attorney General, and the AG of several states have been contacted by me along with the "evidence"; links, message boards, etc. We'll see.

The State of Florida and California, and other states can order a recall without a court order or intervention if they determine a product fraud has been effected. Which with prevaling evidence isn't too hard to prove that at least Apple is covering this up - point blank.

I also have several media contacts (local South Florida) who can keep this alive and put pressure on. Consumer reporting is a number one ratings getter.

So while a class action may rage and for nought except for the results you mentioned, there are other options available. No matter how much resistance Apple puts up, or how long it takes to get them to do the right thing.
It's not hard to get the attention of a state attorney general. It's harder to get the AG's office to agree with you and do something. If Apple were not replacing the logic boards free of charge, you might have a case. But if they're replacing them and 99.9% of this model of iBook are functioning properly, which Apple will have the stats to prove, the AG will realize that the group of people with this problem is limited and that Apple is acting responsibly.

I don't know the details of your personal situation, but if you're having another logic board problem, why don't you call up Apple and say "gee, I've had X logic board replacements and this is problem X+1. I don't think this is going to fix it. Isn't there some other way we can resolve this problem."

This reminds me of a customer we had at a software firm I used to work at years back. He kept harassing us for months, threatening to call the state attorney general for our product not working, etc. His problem was due to his computer, not our software, but he wouldn't take no for an answer. So I'm at a tradeshow demo-ing our latest version and who shows up. I have a mic on me and am doing a demo in front of dozens of customers in our large booth, and he starts yelling at me from outside of our booth, warning our prospective customers not to buy our product. We could have called security, but after 1 minute of this, the owner pulled him aside and asked him what it would take to get him to disappear. He got his money back and we went on with the show.

So what is it that you want? An iBook without a logic board problem, or compensation for all the grief you've gone through? Figure out what it is you want and talk to Apple. If it's a working computer you want, you should be able to reach a mutually agreeable resolution without any more games. If it's compensation you want, yeah, encouraging others to join a crusade is probably the way to go, but as others have pointed out, nobody wins in lawsuits except for the lawyers.
     
dcolton
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Jan 9, 2004, 12:39 PM
 
MGL,

Obviously, you have never had to deal with Apple before. And it is obvious that you have the "zealot" blinders focused on becoming an apologist and defender of the great Apple way.

But if they're replacing them and 99.9% of this model of iBook are functioning properly, which Apple will have the stats to prove, the AG will realize that the group of people with this problem is limited and that Apple is acting responsibly.
99.9% function properly? Prove it. That is the biggest...most bold face lie I have seen in a while. YOu are arbitrarily making up numbers to defend Apple. GET A LIFE. If you are going to lie...at least make it plausible. If apple or any other company could have a .1% failure rate, the would have a little more than 2% of the marketshare.
     
mgl
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Jan 9, 2004, 06:12 PM
 
Originally posted by dcolton:
MGL,

Obviously, you have never had to deal with Apple before. And it is obvious that you have the "zealot" blinders focused on becoming an apologist and defender of the great Apple way.

99.9% function properly? Prove it. That is the biggest...most bold face lie I have seen in a while. YOu are arbitrarily making up numbers to defend Apple. GET A LIFE. If you are going to lie...at least make it plausible. If apple or any other company could have a .1% failure rate, the would have a little more than 2% of the marketshare.
Check the stats somebody else posted earlier in this thread. He came up with 0.06% are having logic board problems. That's nothing. For 0.06% to have the same problem, yes, it's a pattern, but no, it's not a huge issue. Yes, a much larger percentage of laptops have problems, but not the same problem.

And yes, I've dealt with Apple a lot on repairs. I have received defective equipment and had computers and parts die on me at both home and work. But I've also dealt with Dell, IBM, Toshiba, and Compaq. While my personal results are not statistically significant, I went through 5 Dell laptops in one year, and 3 of them were logic board failures. Was I upset? Yes. Did I start an online petition and blast Dell everywhere? No.

We're using laptops. Laptops have problems. I don't expect perfection of any vendor, but I do expect timely resolution. Yes, after the 3rd Dell I too was upset. After the 5th, I switched brands. But what is important is timely resolution. Is Apple turning around the logic board repairs in a reasonable time? If so, they're doing their job.
     
Quadra  (op)
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Jan 10, 2004, 01:01 AM
 
Again, the failure rate per number manufactured is a flawed defense. Sony tried this on a number of their products that class actions were taken and lost.

Juries simply do not care about the math. In addition, the fact that Apple has blinded itself to the problem, (possible admission that something stinks), would not weigh in their favor.

On the AG's they will act if significant numbers write of the same complaint.

Also the FTC which could order a recall if it receives enough complaints, especially safety related if the ibook "shock" hazard really does exist.

Word is (I have independent confirmation) that Apple has issued a memo to techs NOT to cop to the flaw or face termination.

I am attempting to get this memo at this time.
     
dcolton
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Jan 12, 2004, 11:10 AM
 
Check the stats somebody else posted earlier in this thread. He came up with 0.06% are having logic board problems. That's nothing. For 0.06% to have the same problem, yes, it's a pattern, but no, it's not a huge issue. Yes, a much larger percentage of laptops have problems, but not the same problem.
Those aren't stats! It's not even an educated guess. Do you think everyone floats around the internet looking for logic board failures. I anm willing to bet that more than 50% of the people who have had their logic boards replaced don't even realize it was the logic board that was replaced! I am willing to bet that 90% of iBook owners with logic board failures haven't bothered to see if there were a logic board petition. AND, I would bet that there are 10's of thousands of iBook owners are so stuck up Apple's arse that they wouldn't sign a petition if Steve Jobs himself cut off their right arm and called it a iHand. Just because someone owns a computer doesn't mean they are internet savvy or even bother to surf. So that .06% that is being claimed is the most misleading, apologistic, zealotistic, evangelistic spin I have ever seen. If you think about it...that .06% is representative of quite a few logic board failures. Much more than what is represented by the petitions and the class action sign up. It is more plauisible to say that the ,06% number is representative of the % of people who signed the peitition versus the total number of iBook owners with logic board failures. I really wish you guys would quit trying to defend apple so much. Your hurting Apple and the consumer alike. Good try though!

And yes, I've dealt with Apple a lot on repairs. I have received defective equipment and had computers and parts die on me at both home and work. But I've also dealt with Dell, IBM, Toshiba, and Compaq. While my personal results are not statistically significant, I went through 5 Dell laptops in one year, and 3 of them were logic board failures. Was I upset? Yes. Did I start an online petition and blast Dell everywhere? No.
But the difference is you don't/ didn't have a bunch of dell zealots attacking you and calling you a liar. You didn't have a bunch of enthusiasts flame you for just asking about the problem. And I am pretty sure you didn't have Dell LIE to you and tell you that the issue (LB) was unique to you alone. Furthermore, I am willing to bet that you didn't have abunch of zealots make up stats about the issuse.

We're using laptops. Laptops have problems. I don't expect perfection of any vendor, but I do expect timely resolution. Yes, after the 3rd Dell I too was upset. After the 5th, I switched brands. But what is important is timely resolution. Is Apple turning around the logic board repairs in a reasonable time? If so, they're doing their job.
Apple can turn around a logic board repair in 3 days...that is pretty good. That still doesn't justify a prevelant problem!
     
James L
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Jan 12, 2004, 12:23 PM
 
dcolton:

No offence intended, but when I read the constant threads about this problem and people going to the government, holding protest rallies, etc for a problem that is NOT statistically significant (that is not too say that it doesn't exist but I have even heard people say this will be the undoing of Apple! Get a grip on reality people) I can't help but be amused. It is simple math... compare the number of iBooks from that generation out there with the number of problematic ones and I don't think it even comes close to problems other companies have experienced. I understand the problem isn't so much that there are mechanical failures as much as people feel Apple is ignoring the problem, but I swear people are losing sleep over this on a nightly basis! Ant-acids and Cardiac meds anyone?


Having said that.... this quote from one of your posts:

"AND, I would bet that there are 10's of thousands of iBook owners are so stuck up Apple's arse that they wouldn't sign a petition if Steve Jobs himself cut off their right arm and called it a iHand."


Is one of the FUNNIEST things I have ever read on a forum!

lol! Cheers!
     
dcolton
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Jan 12, 2004, 04:36 PM
 
Originally posted by -Q-:
Actually, even if you assume that there's no duplication between the two petition lists, you have 1100 people that have been affected by this.

According to Apple's K-10 filing, they sold 717,000 iBooks in 2003 and almost 1.6 million iBooks from 2002-2003.

Which means, over the last two years, only 0.06% of iBook purchasers have been affected by this issue. I know this isn't the full number of people affected, as not everyone will have signed the petition forms, but it does make me wonder exactly how widespread this issue is? Even if you doubled the number of petition participants, the numbers don't seem to indicate that a large portion of people are bothered by this.
Well, we wouldn't "double" numbers...we are working with proportions and percentages here - BESIDES - That 717 number isn't total number of iBooks sold...it is net revenue!

Here are the REAL numbers directly from Apple's Website. ( I am not going to post links, but if you do a search on Apple's website you will find that my numbers are taken directly from them! My search was: "q1 2003", "q2 2003"...and so on to get these numbers

q1 2003 - 186K q1 2002 - 185K
q2 2003 - 133K q2 2002 - 141K
q3 2003 - 190K q3 2002 - 169K
q4 2003 - 137K q4 2002 - 182K

totals - 646,000 iBooks sold in 2003
677,000 iBooks sold in 2002


Total 1,323,000 during 2002 and 2003

I am sure it was an honest mistake on your part and you had no intention of providing smoke and mirrors for Apple.
( Last edited by dcolton; Jan 12, 2004 at 04:45 PM. )
     
finboy
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Jan 12, 2004, 09:53 PM
 
Originally posted by dcolton:

Total 1,323,000 during 2002 and 2003

I am sure it was an honest mistake on your part and you had no intention of providing smoke and mirrors for Apple.
So divide 1100 (1500, whatever) into that. The LBF and video cable problems remain, at this point, anomalies.

As for class action suits, good freaking luck. The attorneys are (and always will be, since they make the rules) the ones who win in those situations.

For those of you complaining about Apple's quality control, please don't ever go into the computer business. You'll be shocked at how the real world works.
     
xerobase
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Jan 13, 2004, 07:25 AM
 
Originally posted by Quadra:
Apple needs to drop everything quick and fix this, it isn't going away.
I think that's true, buy I'm beginning to be doubtful of their ability to "fix" anything. I had fun writing up a report of my iBook's third trip to AppleCare. Excerpt:

Return of the iBook
or, How AppleCare Fixed Some Things, Didnít Fix Others, And I Unwittingly Gave Apple Permission to Seize My Hard Drive.

As reported previously, my iBook went back to AppleCare for a third time on Thursday, January 8. To be repaired: the display, the AirPort connector with exposed wire, and the screw with the sheared-off head.

On Friday, January 9, I learned that not only had the iBook been received at the repair depot, but it had also been repaired, tested, shipped, and the dispatch ticket closed, all by 10:30 p.m.

Oh, and they replaced the hard drive.
Believe me, I _want_ Apple to do the right thing. But my personal experience with their support leaves something to be desired.
     
-Q-
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Jan 13, 2004, 10:52 AM
 
Originally posted by dcolton:
Total 1,323,000 during 2002 and 2003

I am sure it was an honest mistake on your part and you had no intention of providing smoke and mirrors for Apple.
It was a mistake. I don't read K-10 filings very often.

But it still doesn't raise the percentage that much. It brings it up to a whopping 0.1%. Still not a dramatic percentage of people affected. That being said, did I ever say Apple shouldn't address this problem? No. You just assumed that b/c I wanted to take a look at the numbers we had available that I'm an 'Apple defender'.

I assume your attitude was just an innocent mistake and not an intentional slight to misdirect my posts or postulize my intent when you obviously have no idea what it was.
     
dcolton
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Jan 13, 2004, 11:05 AM
 
Originally posted by finboy:
So divide 1100 (1500, whatever) into that. The LBF and video cable problems remain, at this point, anomalies.

As for class action suits, good freaking luck. The attorneys are (and always will be, since they make the rules) the ones who win in those situations.

For those of you complaining about Apple's quality control, please don't ever go into the computer business. You'll be shocked at how the real world works.
And that gives you what number? A totally innacurate percentage of people who have complained about their ibook versus the total number of iBook's sold in 2 years? That doesn't even come close to the total number of logic board failures. COME ON...OPEN YOUR EYES. If you think that everyone who has had logic board problems sgned the petition or jumped on the class action bandwagon...you are crazy.

A more fair and accurate assesment (If you didn't wear those blinders) would be that the 1500 number is only a small percentage of consumers with logic board failures.


For those of you who can't figure that out...please, don't ever go into ANY avocation that requires basic math...or a position that requires reason, or any position that requires common sense.

As for class action suits: Although I have reached MULTIPLE (6) LB Failures, I have not and will not sign up for a class action suit (so their goes your THEORY that all consumers with LB failures have signed up for a class action suit). It's not because I don't think forcing Apple to be honest and ethical is a great thing...it is because I already resolved my issue with Apple.
     
dcolton
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Jan 13, 2004, 11:10 AM
 
Originally posted by -Q-:
It was a mistake. I don't read K-10 filings very often.

But it still doesn't raise the percentage that much. It brings it up to a whopping 0.1%. Still not a dramatic percentage of people affected. That being said, did I ever say Apple shouldn't address this problem? No. You just assumed that b/c I wanted to take a look at the numbers we had available that I'm an 'Apple defender'.

I assume your attitude was just an innocent mistake and not an intentional slight to misdirect my posts or postulize my intent when you obviously have no idea what it was.
LOL! Good one! (I appreciate

BUT...I Must reiterate that YOU CANNOT COME UP WITH A NUMBER FROM THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE SIGNED UP FOR A CLASS ACTION SUIT! That is assuming that everyone with a logic board problem is 1. Aware of the issue. 2. signed up for the suit 3. Even aware that their is a suit.

Everyone doesn't visit apple boards...or macnn or any other forum at that. I didn;t sign it...so there goes one.

Is what I am saying fair...

Can you at least admit that your percentage isn't accurate?
     
-Q-
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Jan 13, 2004, 03:09 PM
 
Originally posted by dcolton:
Can you at least admit that your percentage isn't accurate?
Oh, I fully agree that it's not accurate. I was just trying to get a handle on the relative size of the market that could be affected by this problem using the numbers we had available to us. There could be tens of thousands of people who have no idea what's going on that have suffered this issue. That being said, not everyone who signed the petition could be suffering from the video issue - the petition merely states that the undersigned support the idea that Apple come forward and address/correct the issue. I personally know three people who have suffered this logic board problem. I also know a good dozen people un my user group that have never had a problem with their iBook. And a few of them are none too gentle with their machine.

That being said, the real numbers will never be known unless Apple releases them. They're the ones doing the repairs, so they'll be the only ones who can answer the question of 'how many?'

I'd like to see an extended repair policy put in place a la the PowerBook 5300 (? - is that the right one?) so this issue can be put to rest.
     
finboy
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Jan 13, 2004, 08:16 PM
 
Originally posted by dcolton:

A more fair and accurate assesment (If you didn't wear those blinders) would be that the 1500 number is only a small percentage of consumers with logic board failures.

Fair and accurate based on what? Your years of experience in the hardware business, or your years of work in market research?

There's nothing to support your numbers. Just admit it and take it like an adult.
     
dcolton
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Jan 14, 2004, 11:37 AM
 
Originally posted by finboy:

Fair and accurate based on what? Your years of experience in the hardware business, or your years of work in market research?

There's nothing to support your numbers. Just admit it and take it like an adult. [/B]
Thats a pretty bold statement for a zealot who thinks that the total number of logic board failures is equal to the total number of people who signed an online petition. That is the most sophopmoric (AND WRONG) thought process I have ever run across.

Admit it...admit that your percentage is not accurate!

As for my numbers...assuming that 1500 is only a percentage of users who have had logic board failures is Common Sense

Oh...and YES...I have years of experience in Market Research. A little experience in comparative analysis as well.

I can't believe you actually think that every iBook owner with a logic board problem signed that petition. That's funny. It is amusing to see you appletons scurry around to defend the Apple way. If you ever apply for a job with Apple...please put me down as a reference. I will attest to your unwaivering loyalty to a computer.
     
Quadra  (op)
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Jan 14, 2004, 10:58 PM
 
From Apple's financial report:

Anderson noted higher-than-expected warranty expenses for the quarter, caused by screen problems with the 15" PowerBook and iBook hardware problems. This contributed to a reduction in Apple's gross margin to 26.7%, a little lower than the company expected, but Anderson said that the 15" PowerBook problem has been fixed: "For any new systems being shipped, the problem's have been resolved."

What problems with the ibook Fred? You all said there weren't any problems.....


heh.....
     
Mulattabianca
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Jan 21, 2004, 07:25 AM
 
i had an ibook 700 for a year.

after 1 month of use, a fried logic board. replaced in warranty.

yesterday the guy who bought the book emailed me. the same thig again. logic board, unless its something worse (like the screen).

i'm sad.
::1 ::2 ::3 ::
     
evilmac
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Jan 25, 2004, 12:18 AM
 
three months after i had my ibook (700mhz 12inch) every time i touched the left side of the track pad the screen would fizzle and the HD would freeze up in a winding sound. luckily it was still in warrenty....whew...
     
sine -''-..-
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Jan 25, 2004, 04:32 PM
 
i find this whole situation rings of a slight bit of irony.

it seems these troubled ibook users love their ibooks so much, that they are so terribly distraught at their baby's ailment that they seek to lash out at whoever could have possibly let this happen(!) and so they yell at and threaten to sue the bringer of (minus the bugs) such truly wonderful machines.

now if apple made less lovable machines like the rest of the industry, the people who owned them wouldn't give two spits.

i'm sure such problems are not uncommon. to me it seems a perfectly honest design flaw. its a fatigue thing, terribly difficult to test for. also, they aren't obligated to recall. i don't even think they should. in fact, they couldn't. how much do you think it would cost apple to replace the logic boards for 1.6 million machines??? as for getting it repaired, now that the warranty is up, it should cost the owner, not Apple.
sine -''-..-

now known as pillowcase

     
dcolton
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Jan 26, 2004, 05:33 PM
 
Sine,

I can't even bare to commment on your post. Gee Whiz...if some of you people would take a step back and open your eyes...you would realize that a demand for better, more reliable products is what Apple needs. Apple has had twenty years of cult-teriffic followers who worship anything with an apple on it. And the end result has been a 20 year trek to barely maintain a 3% market share. Maybe if some of us would spend less time defending apple, spend less time apologizing for apple and steve jobs, and spend a little more time placing Apple under a healthy amount of scrutiny - maybe then Apple could muster a better marketshare and maybe we could all reap the benefits of more third party software and hardware as well as a quality product(s) that can meet minimum industry standards.
     
camerachris
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Jan 26, 2004, 08:45 PM
 
The logic board problem has bitten my ibook (luckily repaired under warantee), but unfortunately also is currently affecting a friends ibook that is just out of the one year of coverage. I feel bad about it because I helped convince him to get his first apple... and then he picked up an ipod which is causing him problems with regard to battery life. (btw, our two ibooks are the only ones owned in our group, so its unfortunately 2 for 2)

I just picked up a G5, so I'm not completely convinced apple's quality is in the basement, but I can't say that I'll be giving any recommendations for apple in the future... as the "tech" guy in my family and friends, i'm constantly getting asked for advice, but i'm just not sure what to do now.
     
FXWizard
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Jan 27, 2004, 09:07 PM
 
Originally posted by camerachris:
The logic board problem has bitten my ibook (luckily repaired under warantee), but unfortunately also is currently affecting a friends ibook that is just out of the one year of coverage. I feel bad about it because I helped convince him to get his first apple... and then he picked up an ipod which is causing him problems with regard to battery life. (btw, our two ibooks are the only ones owned in our group, so its unfortunately 2 for 2)

I just picked up a G5, so I'm not completely convinced apple's quality is in the basement, but I can't say that I'll be giving any recommendations for apple in the future... as the "tech" guy in my family and friends, i'm constantly getting asked for advice, but i'm just not sure what to do now.
Why didn't you convince your friend to buy AppleCare before his original warranty was up?
     
dcolton
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Jan 29, 2004, 05:45 PM
 
Okay all you mac zealots who praise Steve Jobs...what do you have to say now. I have been flamed by you apologists for about a year now...and I take GREAT pride in saying---I TOLD YOU SO!.

And before you try some more smoke and mirrors on behalf of your savior, Steve Jobs...think about this:

A repair program is costly, but REFUNDING prior repairs is huge. If that is not an admission of guilt...I don't know what is.

At any rate, your zealotry only hurts Apple...and if you would have been cool about the issue and if you would have opened your eyes instead of defending mighty apple's 2% market share, then perhaps this would have been avoided. I guess you "Evangelists" are going to have to say a few extra hail Steve's.

Don't you get it...the more you allow Apple to bend you over, the more they are going to take advantage of you!
     
milhaus
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Jan 29, 2004, 06:58 PM
 
Originally posted by dcolton:
Okay all you mac zealots who praise Steve Jobs...what do you have to say now. I have been flamed by you apologists for about a year now...and I take GREAT pride in saying---I TOLD YOU SO!.

And before you try some more smoke and mirrors on behalf of your savior, Steve Jobs...think about this:

A repair program is costly, but REFUNDING prior repairs is huge. If that is not an admission of guilt...I don't know what is.

At any rate, your zealotry only hurts Apple...and if you would have been cool about the issue and if you would have opened your eyes instead of defending mighty apple's 2% market share, then perhaps this would have been avoided. I guess you "Evangelists" are going to have to say a few extra hail Steve's.

Don't you get it...the more you allow Apple to bend you over, the more they are going to take advantage of you!
WTF? Apple steps up to the plate - do you really think that the sole reason that Apple did this was the protest? - and you go off on them? Companies do these things frequently, but it often takes time for programs like this to be approved . . . Really, go buy a PC and be done with it if you really think that badly of them.
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dcolton
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Jan 30, 2004, 11:26 AM
 


I wasn't going off on Apple. I was going off on zealots who think apple can do no wrong. I was going off on zealots who make it easy for apple to screw over its customer base for some inane cultist reason that makes no sense.

And yes...the protest, and the threat of a lawsuit did force apple to do the right thing. Hell, they didn't even admit there was an issue until certain individuals threatened a class action.

You say that companies do things like this frequently and it takes time....you care to give any examples...(quick, google up an example so you can support your statement). Oh...I have an example...Apple's power cord recall...or what about the OSX settlement?

Really, you go buy a pc...you only hurt the apple world

OH AND FINBOY...just admit it and take it like an adult
     
Quadra  (op)
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Jan 30, 2004, 12:51 PM
 
Whether Apple responded to a pending suit is up for grabs. What is known that the 2000 or so who signed up for one along with the 2500 who signed the petition, along with the media coverage DID have some affect.

However, because Apple left out many owners of pre-2000 books who claim the same issue it isn't known if the suit still won't go forward. Word is that it may.

In anycase, as I started this thread and was the one who alerted several of the media outlets of issue, I am happy for Apple's decision.

But it didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out there was a problem, they knew it several months ago, but a memo was sent out (got one), that nothing was to be mentioned about it until Apple investigated the flaw.

So here's one for the little people who stood up and got noticed.
     
   
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