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Salt Lake City 5 Dead at Trolley Square mall (Page 2)
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Severed Hand of Skywalker
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Feb 14, 2007, 01:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by kmkkid View Post
How bout september last year?
Fine, post 10 more if you want as you are just confirming what I already said.

The point is that some of you are totally missing somehow is the US is extremely high with this sort of thing so pointing a finger back saying it happens in "INCERT COUNTRY HERE" doesn't make it happen less in the US or explain why.

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Timo
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Feb 14, 2007, 01:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
Yes in the way I claim. Having the "same percentage of urban compared to non -urban" isn't the same as what I was referring to.

And no, Canada does not have the amount of large cities we do.
Per capita, it's comparable.

Which WILL and DOES bring up our numbers.

Smaller crowded areas = more violence.
Back it up, Kevin. Show us.

When a country has tons of these areas around, their "violence" numbers will go up.
The language of hyperbole.

Big city America, and small town America are two different beasts.
Yes, in some ways, no in others.

The latter makes up the greater percentage of the US.
Nope. As stated above, more than 3/4 of the US is urbanized. This is a FACT, Kevin, and is easily verifiable.

So labeling all the US this way is ignorant. And those that do that only do so because of their chips on their shoulders.
I don't have a dog in that fight. There are plenty of silly anti-American comments on these boards, but you're both exaggerating their importance (by constantly harping about it), and minimizing the kernal of truth implicit in, e.g., that graph above of gun violence.

Crime is HORRIBLE in big cities. HORRIBLE. It's the reason I wont live in one.

But it is NOT the norm in the US. hardly.
It think it is interesting for you that the United States of America somehow doesn't include its big cities. That is, your idea of what the US is excludes 3/4 of its citizens. Now we're a free country, so you're free to live anyway you please, with any fantasy you like, but the fact remains that the large urban centers of this country are the engines of our economy and the source of much of our culture. But I'm sure, given the chance, you'd wall off our cities and make your own Bantustans.

I got news for you, Kevin. All that horrible crime? It's already over the city lines. There are many documented cases of surburban police departments unable to cope with crime (often drug or gun related) spilling out of troubled parts of center cities. You can ignore it if you like, pretend it happens "only there", but this stuff is a NATIONAL problem, not a "big city liberal" problem.

Seriously, you should retire that "big city" boogeyman. So old, so played out.
     
Timo
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Feb 14, 2007, 01:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
And again, those numbers if valid still go on to prove my stance. There is no place on earth layed out like America. No place with AS MANY crowded cities. .
Not true. NOt true. NOT TRUE. Northern Europe is easily more crowded, with large cities, than the US. THIS IS A FACT.
     
kmkkid
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Feb 14, 2007, 01:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker View Post
Fine, post 10 more if you want as you are just confirming what I already said.

The point is that some of you are totally missing somehow is the US is extremely high with this sort of thing so pointing a finger back saying it happens in "INCERT COUNTRY HERE" doesn't make it happen less in the US or explain why.
I'm not missing anything, you said these types of things rarely happen in Canada, then you complained because someone gave you a 20 yr old account. I just gave you something more recent

FTR, I agree that the US does have far more of these types of things happening compared to other countries. But it does happen everywhere. The US doesn't have the only population of crazy kooks.
     
TETENAL
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Feb 14, 2007, 01:32 PM
 
Let's look at Kevin's "population density" theory:

The worst 5 US states for homicide are (source):

(1) Louisiana 13.0
(2) Maryland 9.5
(3) Mississippi 9.3
(4) Nevada 8.8
(5) Arizona 7.9

Of the 32 most densely populated cities only 2 are in the above states, Baltimore at rank 18 and Phoenix at rank 32.
     
Timo
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Feb 14, 2007, 01:41 PM
 
Yep, violence is cultural and demographic, is is not a "function" of aggregate numbers.
     
macroy
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Feb 14, 2007, 01:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by TETENAL View Post
Well, I thought this was about shootings, but here's a statistic about violent crimes:

But if you look at that with the population... it'd almost looks normal. I'm only looking at Canada and the US since that's the country many are using as a comparison - US @ just shy of 300million and Canada at just over 30million... 10 to 1... which is about the same as the graph above (it actually favors the US).

Not saying this is a 100% valid comparison. But I do think the events that happen in the US is covered more across the globe (be it a good thing or bad). And as mentioned previously - I do think the high number of large metropolitan areas do attribute to that (even though many of these events happen outside of them).
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Severed Hand of Skywalker
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Feb 14, 2007, 01:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by kmkkid View Post
FTR, I agree that the US does have far more of these types of things happening compared to other countries. But it does happen everywhere. The US doesn't have the only population of crazy kooks.
You can't compare the US to some wore torn or poor country and say it happens elsewhere.

The US is supposed to be a modern society with laws, stable government, justice system and safe. But for some reason Americans young and old are killing each other higher than in other similar countries and there has to be a reason and not just coincidence or population density. There are more dense counties with more chaotic governments and societies and this still doesn't happen as much.

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SirCastor
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Feb 14, 2007, 01:54 PM
 
Wow, this quickly turned into something that should've been in the Pol/War Lounge.

Geeze, pick a problem and go grab stats on it. You'll find a few different sources, and a few different conclusions.

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TETENAL
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Feb 14, 2007, 02:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by macroy View Post
But if you look at that with the population... it'd almost looks normal. I'm only looking at Canada and the US since that's the country many are using as a comparison - US @ just shy of 300million and Canada at just over 30million... 10 to 1... which is about the same as the graph above (it actually favors the US).
Of course the graph show the crime rate per 100.000 inhabitants.
     
Kevin
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Feb 14, 2007, 02:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker View Post
US is extremely high with this sort of thing
hyperbole
so pointing a finger back saying it happens in "INCERT COUNTRY HERE" doesn't make it happen less in the US or explain why.
I told you why.
     
kmkkid
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Feb 14, 2007, 02:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker View Post
You can't compare the US to some wore torn or poor country and say it happens elsewhere.

The US is supposed to be a modern society with laws, stable government, justice system and safe. But for some reason Americans young and old are killing each other higher than in other similar countries and there has to be a reason and not just coincidence or population density. There are more dense counties with more chaotic governments and societies and this still doesn't happen as much.
Notice I said it happens everywhere, not just wore torn/poor countries AFAIK, every country on earth has probably had nutjobs like this at least some time in their history. That includes both civilized, and uncivilized countries.
     
Kevin
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Feb 14, 2007, 02:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Timo View Post
Per capita, it's comparable.
Not to the point I made.
Back it up, Kevin. Show us.
Wait, are you doubting that overcrowded cities are more prone to violence than not? If so I would be glad to show you.
The language of hyperbole.
Not hyperbole. When most violence happens in large cities, and a country has tons of large cities..

What is hyperbolic about that?
Yes, in some ways, no in others.
Well duh. But the way we were talking, and I was referring to was in violence. It;s night and day when compared with cities and small towns for the most part.
Nope. As stated above, more than 3/4 of the US is urbanized. This is a FACT, Kevin, and is easily verifiable.
UM urbanized is still a small town. I am talking BIG CITIES. 75% of America doesn't consist of big cities. I surely hope you aren't saying that.
I don't have a dog in that fight. There are plenty of silly anti-American comments on these boards, but you're both exaggerating their importance (by constantly harping about it), and minimizing the kernal of truth implicit in, e.g., that graph above of gun violence.
#1 No exaggeration. If you want I can show you MANY examples of SWG doing this.
#2 Your gun violence chart had nothing to do with my argument.
It think it is interesting for you that the United States of America somehow doesn't include its big cities.
That didn't even make sense.
That is, your idea of what the US is excludes 3/4 of its citizens. Now we're a free country, so you're free to live anyway you please, with any fantasy you like, but the fact remains that the large urban centers of this country are the engines of our economy and the source of much of our culture. But I'm sure, given the chance, you'd wall off our cities and make your own Bantustans.
Again 3/4 of this country is not large cities. I am not talking about getting rid of or walling up our cities. Where the heck are you getting this from?

How bizarre. I think you need to re-read my post.
I got news for you, Kevin. All that horrible crime? It's already over the city lines. There are many documented cases of surburban police departments unable to cope with crime (often drug or gun related) spilling out of troubled parts of center cities. You can ignore it if you like, pretend it happens "only there", but this stuff is a NATIONAL problem, not a "big city liberal" problem.
Not where i live it's not. Maybe near the suburbs of LARGER cities. But that isn't where I am speaking of.
Seriously, you should retire that "big city" boogeyman. So old, so played out.
Too bad it has facts to back it up.

Larger the city in the US, the more crime there is.
     
Kevin
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Feb 14, 2007, 02:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Timo View Post
Not true. NOt true. NOT TRUE. Northern Europe is easily more crowded, with large cities, than the US. THIS IS A FACT.
You aren't reading anything I am saying. Nothing.
     
Kevin
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Feb 14, 2007, 02:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by TETENAL View Post
Let's look at Kevin's "population density" theory:

The worst 5 US states for homicide are (source):
LOL!

I suggest you go here

US States Crime 2004 -2005 Crimes per 100,000 and Ranking

BTW since you live in "New York" I understand why you are being so defense about large cities.

     
Kevin
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Feb 14, 2007, 02:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by kmkkid View Post
Notice I said it happens everywhere, not just wore torn/poor countries AFAIK, every country on earth has probably had nutjobs like this at least some time in their history. That includes both civilized, and uncivilized countries.
Might as well give it up. He just wants to bash. He doesn't care what happened or why or to whom.
     
TETENAL
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Feb 14, 2007, 02:56 PM
 
Since when do I live in "New York"?

And as by your own link New York ranks 29th in homicide. How does that support your theory that large cities have higher violent crime rates?
     
Kevin
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Feb 14, 2007, 03:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by TETENAL View Post
And as by your own link New York ranks 29th in homicide. How does that support your theory that large cities have higher violent crime rates?
Who ranks first? Washington DC. A large city. And so on from 2 down. That supports my theory.

The stats you gave me were flawed. Why you even choose to use the page you did is beyond me.
     
TETENAL
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Feb 14, 2007, 03:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
Who ranks first? Washington DC. A large city. And so on from 2 down. That supports my theory.
Washington D. C. is not a large city. It ranks 27th in the USA by population. Second in homicide ranks Puerto Rico which has no cities at all. 3rd Maryland, 4th Louisiana, 5th Nevada all don't have extremely large cities. The giant New York ranks 29th in homicide. I'm not pulling out the crime rates for each city in the US to calculate the correlation for you, but it doesn't look like you're right.

Cities in the 500.000 range like in the top crime areas in the US are not unusual in Europe, yet the violent crime rate is 1/10th.
     
Kevin
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Feb 16, 2007, 10:41 AM
 
DC isn't a large city? IT IS compared to small towns an cities I was comparing to.

Again, your stats was off.
     
SirCastor
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Feb 16, 2007, 10:50 AM
 
The 5 police Officers involved in securing the area, and taking down the gunman are being honored today...

yeah, this thread is actually about the shooting in SLC.
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Kevin
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Feb 16, 2007, 11:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by SirCastor View Post
The 5 police Officers involved in securing the area, and taking down the gunman are being honored today...

yeah, this thread is actually about the shooting in SLC.
Yeah I saw the video..

The police don't get payed enough. If they did we'd have a better police system.
     
Timo
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Feb 16, 2007, 11:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
You aren't reading anything I am saying. Nothing.
For the record, Kevin, you confuse opinion with fact. Enjoy your day.
     
Kevin
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Feb 16, 2007, 11:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by Timo View Post
For the record, Kevin, you confuse opinion with fact. Enjoy your day.
This coming from someone that probably searched google to find the stats he WANTED instead of the ones that were actually true.

Like i said, overcrowding and crime usually go hand in hand.

I live in the US, don't lock my car, house, or anything at night or while I am gone. My parents didn't either. Never owned a key to the house.

And I don't live in the sticks.

There is a difference between urban areas, and large overcrowded cities when it comes to crime.
     
Severed Hand of Skywalker
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Feb 16, 2007, 11:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by TETENAL View Post
Of course the graph show the crime rate per 100.000 inhabitants.
I know that was the best part

I'm sure in whatever reality they are in though it still doesn't change their mind.

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TETENAL
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Feb 16, 2007, 11:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
DC isn't a large city? IT IS compared to small towns an cities I was comparing to.
You were comparing it to European cities. Washington D. C. isn't large even by European standards.
     
brassplayersrock²
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Feb 16, 2007, 01:44 PM
 
kevin, you're so concerned about swg derailing threads, look what you have done here. sometimes it is better to just shut up while ahead. i mean no disrespect of course.

it's a shame what happened. lets not derail this thread anymore

-a
     
Severed Hand of Skywalker
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Feb 16, 2007, 02:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by brassplayersrock View Post
kevin, you're so concerned about swg derailing threads, look what you have done here.
Is he still worrying over me 18 months after he was permanently put on my ignore list and hasn't got a single reply from me?

I would have thought his obsession with me would have dropped by now but you're saying he still thinks what I say has enough weight to try to discredit me at every chance?

The creapy hasn't faded!

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Feb 16, 2007, 04:00 PM
 
What's interesting is that this story has now been dropped from the News. It's hard to find on sites like CNN and others. Of course they've had stuff about Anna Nicole Smith in the headlines since she's died.

It's interesting that this Hate Crime story has been dropped. If it was a White guy who had gone in and killed a bunch of Blacks Or Muslims it would be headline news for days. We'd get psychological profiles of the killer, We'd get interviews from Family and friends, co-workers, teachers, and anyone else who claimed to know him. But since this story is about a Muslim boy who killed 5 white people it's off the news almost as quickly as it was on it.
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Severed Hand of Skywalker
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Feb 16, 2007, 04:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by typoon View Post
What's interesting is that this story has now been dropped from the News. It's hard to find on sites like CNN and others. Of course they've had stuff about Anna Nicole Smith in the headlines since she's died.
Well duh. One b-list Celebrity death is way more important and interesting than 5 dead regular people.

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Gossamer
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Feb 16, 2007, 04:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker View Post
Well duh. One b-list Celebrity death is way more important and interesting than 5 dead regular people.
I think you're being generous calling her b-list.
     
typoon
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Feb 16, 2007, 04:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker View Post
Well duh. One b-list Celebrity death is way more important and interesting than 5 dead regular people.
While that maybe true do people really care about Anna Nicole Smith and her Death? I know I don't.
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SirCastor
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Feb 16, 2007, 04:13 PM
 
In this particular case, police are still a bit baffled about the motive behind the shootings. It's also unclear that this is a hate crime. We don't know if it was perpetrated against any particular group.
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Severed Hand of Skywalker
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Feb 16, 2007, 04:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by typoon View Post
While that maybe true do people really care about Anna Nicole Smith and her Death? I know I don't.
Was OJ all that interesting before he killed his wife? Remember how people were so obsessed with the trial they installed TV's across from the toilet?

A celebrity does anything and the public is all over it for months.

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Severed Hand of Skywalker
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Feb 16, 2007, 04:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by SirCastor View Post
In this particular case, police are still a bit baffled about the motive behind the shootings. It's also unclear that this is a hate crime. We don't know if it was perpetrated against any particular group.
The point is there is more coverage, investigating and TV shows dedicated to Anna Nicole's death than the shooting case.

You gotta have priorities I guess.

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